rudder pedals/stick

Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

My pics may be misleading, the rudder pedals are inline vertically. I
switched the pushrods around as Al mentioned, seems to be a better setup.
I'm still not too happy about the stick arrangement though. I cut off my
stick to attain the required throw, 25/15 degrees. Is that what the Rebels
have? What I don't like about it is when I pull it full up, I really can't
roll it right or left for cross wind taxi too easily. If I take some offset
out of the stick, then I need to reach for it in cruise. I'm curious, would
one of the Rebel owners tell me how much stick travel you have measuring at
the top of your stick from fore to aft? I just want to see if the geometry
is the same as the Elite.
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Hi Mike !

Maybe it's just the pics, but your brake pedals seem to be sloped
very far forward ... I like to have the vertical tubes on the rudder
pedals and brakes in line vertically, with that line sloping forward
slightly. This gives a good comfortable range ...

But - whatever position suits you -- and works well through
the full range of travel ... is your best bet ! :-)

For the floor - a doubled floor works well. Run a couple of extra
small square tubes from the cross tubes to the firewall, and run a
sheet of .032+ right across, to pick up the edges of the corner wraps.
You can mount everything to the doubled floor if you are ambitious ! ;-)

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 01 January 2006 08:41 pm, Mike Betti wrote:
I think I have the pedals worked out. I see now why the master cylinders
need to mounted to the floor. I also uploaded some pics to E-controls. I
think the pedals are do-able, it's just the manual lacks too much on this
subject. There is no way to install those pedals with the cylinders
mounted
as instructed and still get the pedals to line up. Next I need to beef up
the floor.
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: rudder pedals

Mike, the rudder pedal location is one of the most frustrating build
items
I've found. I do recommend mounting the lower master cylinder
attachment
to the floor. What you are trying to achieve is a linkage arrangement
so
that the brake pedals move with the rudder pedals as they move fore
and
aft so that you can apply the brake when needed but not inadvertantly.
If
they are not, the brake pedals move fore and aft with respect to the
rudder pedals as the rudder is operated.

I also found that the MAM supplied dimensions for the motor mount /
floor
doubler where the pedals mount is not sufficiently large to mount the
delrin blocks where I needed them and accommodate the lower brake
cylinder
mounts. The new doublers and brake cylinder mounts are still in
fabrication so can't supply dimensions. One thing I am considering is
a
complete secondary floor with the pedals and brakes mounted on the
bench
and then the assembly with stiffeners installed as a unit. This would
have the advantages of stiffening the flimsy floor as well as easier
assembly on the bench.

Do measure carefully as the rework is a real pain!
Ralph Baker

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Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Here's what I came up with today. If I extend my control horns 1/2" on the
control column my stick is no longer an issue with the panel. I can then
make my stick 3" longer with the stick offset kept to the top. I could make
new sticks with minumal length at the top to accept the grip and then add
the rest to the bottom. This make for more room between the legs for
crosswind taxi. The new stick would when going full down, would be close to
hitting at mid panel height. I mocked up the 2 needed extensions out of
aluminum and will machine them from a piece of steel. They will be bolted on
with 2 AN3 bolts. The sample can be seen at
www.mikeselite.com/images/controlhorn1.jpg
www.mikeselite.com/images/controlhorn2.jpg
Anybody see a problem with doing this?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

My pics may be misleading, the rudder pedals are inline vertically. I
switched the pushrods around as Al mentioned, seems to be a better setup.
I'm still not too happy about the stick arrangement though. I cut off my
stick to attain the required throw, 25/15 degrees. Is that what the Rebels
have? What I don't like about it is when I pull it full up, I really can't
roll it right or left for cross wind taxi too easily. If I take some
offset
out of the stick, then I need to reach for it in cruise. I'm curious,
would
one of the Rebel owners tell me how much stick travel you have measuring
at
the top of your stick from fore to aft? I just want to see if the geometry
is the same as the Elite.
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Hi Mike !

Maybe it's just the pics, but your brake pedals seem to be sloped
very far forward ... I like to have the vertical tubes on the rudder
pedals and brakes in line vertically, with that line sloping forward
slightly. This gives a good comfortable range ...

But - whatever position suits you -- and works well through
the full range of travel ... is your best bet ! :-)

For the floor - a doubled floor works well. Run a couple of extra
small square tubes from the cross tubes to the firewall, and run a
sheet of .032+ right across, to pick up the edges of the corner wraps.
You can mount everything to the doubled floor if you are ambitious ! ;-)

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 01 January 2006 08:41 pm, Mike Betti wrote:
I think I have the pedals worked out. I see now why the master cylinders
need to mounted to the floor. I also uploaded some pics to E-controls. I
think the pedals are do-able, it's just the manual lacks too much on
this
subject. There is no way to install those pedals with the cylinders
mounted
as instructed and still get the pedals to line up. Next I need to beef
up
the floor.
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: rudder pedals

items
attachment
so
If
floor
cylinder

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

It will also make your elevator movement more sensitive..since for any given
movement of the stick for/aft the elevator will have more movement. Not sure
how great a thing this will be on the Elite considering the reports appear
it is pitch sensitive to start with.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

Here's what I came up with today. If I extend my control horns 1/2" on the
control column my stick is no longer an issue with the panel. I can then
make my stick 3" longer with the stick offset kept to the top. I could

make

new sticks with minumal length at the top to accept the grip and then add
the rest to the bottom. This make for more room between the legs for
crosswind taxi. The new stick would when going full down, would be close

to

hitting at mid panel height. I mocked up the 2 needed extensions out of
aluminum and will machine them from a piece of steel. They will be bolted

on

with 2 AN3 bolts. The sample can be seen at
www.mikeselite.com/images/controlhorn1.jpg
www.mikeselite.com/images/controlhorn2.jpg
Anybody see a problem with doing this?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

My pics may be misleading, the rudder pedals are inline vertically. I
switched the pushrods around as Al mentioned, seems to be a better

setup.

I'm still not too happy about the stick arrangement though. I cut off my
stick to attain the required throw, 25/15 degrees. Is that what the

Rebels

have? What I don't like about it is when I pull it full up, I really

can't

roll it right or left for cross wind taxi too easily. If I take some
offset
out of the stick, then I need to reach for it in cruise. I'm curious,
would
one of the Rebel owners tell me how much stick travel you have measuring
at
the top of your stick from fore to aft? I just want to see if the

geometry

is the same as the Elite.
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Hi Mike !

Maybe it's just the pics, but your brake pedals seem to be sloped
very far forward ... I like to have the vertical tubes on the rudder
pedals and brakes in line vertically, with that line sloping forward
slightly. This gives a good comfortable range ...

But - whatever position suits you -- and works well through
the full range of travel ... is your best bet ! :-)

For the floor - a doubled floor works well. Run a couple of extra
small square tubes from the cross tubes to the firewall, and run a
sheet of .032+ right across, to pick up the edges of the corner wraps.
You can mount everything to the doubled floor if you are ambitious !

;-)

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 01 January 2006 08:41 pm, Mike Betti wrote:

cylinders

I

mounted items attachment

arrangement

so

inadvertantly.

If floor

the

cylinder

is

would

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Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

I'm hoping by lengthening the stick at the same time it will make up for
that problem some.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

It will also make your elevator movement more sensitive..since for any
given
movement of the stick for/aft the elevator will have more movement. Not
sure
how great a thing this will be on the Elite considering the reports appear
it is pitch sensitive to start with.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

Here's what I came up with today. If I extend my control horns 1/2" on
the
control column my stick is no longer an issue with the panel. I can then
make my stick 3" longer with the stick offset kept to the top. I could
make
new sticks with minumal length at the top to accept the grip and then add
the rest to the bottom. This make for more room between the legs for
crosswind taxi. The new stick would when going full down, would be close
to
hitting at mid panel height. I mocked up the 2 needed extensions out of
aluminum and will machine them from a piece of steel. They will be bolted
on
with 2 AN3 bolts. The sample can be seen at
www.mikeselite.com/images/controlhorn1.jpg
www.mikeselite.com/images/controlhorn2.jpg
Anybody see a problem with doing this?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

My pics may be misleading, the rudder pedals are inline vertically. I
switched the pushrods around as Al mentioned, seems to be a better
setup.
I'm still not too happy about the stick arrangement though. I cut off
my
stick to attain the required throw, 25/15 degrees. Is that what the
Rebels
have? What I don't like about it is when I pull it full up, I really
can't
roll it right or left for cross wind taxi too easily. If I take some
offset
out of the stick, then I need to reach for it in cruise. I'm curious,
would
one of the Rebel owners tell me how much stick travel you have
measuring
at
the top of your stick from fore to aft? I just want to see if the
geometry
is the same as the Elite.
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

;-)
cylinders
I
arrangement
inadvertantly.
the
is
would

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Alan Hepburn · Post by **Alan Hepburn** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Mike, another thing you might like to do (copied from Ralph Baker) is to lop
off the flanges on the right hand bearing support and replace them with
aluminum angle riveted to the floor and bolted to the bearing support. That
way, you can remove the control column any time you want to do maintenance
on it, or do a lot of work under the panel.

Al

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

You can also simply tap the holes for the right bracket. If not yet drilled
full size for rivets to 10-32 and if already at #11 drill and tap them for
1/4-24 AN4-3A bolts.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

Mike, another thing you might like to do (copied from Ralph Baker) is to

lop

off the flanges on the right hand bearing support and replace them with
aluminum angle riveted to the floor and bolted to the bearing support.

That

way, you can remove the control column any time you want to do maintenance
on it, or do a lot of work under the panel.

Al

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Bob Patterson · Post by **Bob Patterson** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

I'll second that ! Also could put more load on the horns -
spoils your whole day when they bend or tear off !! That is one
reason I don't like the idea of running a cable forward & around
a pully for up elevator - all the loads are on one horn, and
they alternate with movement - sounds like a recipe for metal
fatigue !!

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 02 January 2006 05:36 pm, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

It will also make your elevator movement more sensitive..since for any

given

movement of the stick for/aft the elevator will have more movement. Not

sure

how great a thing this will be on the Elite considering the reports appear
it is pitch sensitive to start with.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

Here's what I came up with today. If I extend my control horns 1/2" on

the

control column my stick is no longer an issue with the panel. I can then
make my stick 3" longer with the stick offset kept to the top. I could
make
new sticks with minumal length at the top to accept the grip and then

add

the rest to the bottom. This make for more room between the legs for
crosswind taxi. The new stick would when going full down, would be close
to
hitting at mid panel height. I mocked up the 2 needed extensions out of
aluminum and will machine them from a piece of steel. They will be

bolted

on
with 2 AN3 bolts. The sample can be seen at
www.mikeselite.com/images/controlhorn1.jpg
www.mikeselite.com/images/controlhorn2.jpg
Anybody see a problem with doing this?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

My pics may be misleading, the rudder pedals are inline vertically. I
switched the pushrods around as Al mentioned, seems to be a better
setup.
I'm still not too happy about the stick arrangement though. I cut off

my

stick to attain the required throw, 25/15 degrees. Is that what the
Rebels
have? What I don't like about it is when I pull it full up, I really
can't
roll it right or left for cross wind taxi too easily. If I take some
offset
out of the stick, then I need to reach for it in cruise. I'm curious,
would
one of the Rebel owners tell me how much stick travel you have

measuring

at
the top of your stick from fore to aft? I just want to see if the
geometry
is the same as the Elite.
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

rudder

wraps.

;-)
cylinders

E-controls.

I

beef

build

arrangement

fore

inadvertantly.

the

mount /

the

considering

is
would

easier

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Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

That brings me to one of my questions, how much stick movement is there from
fore to aft on a Rebel? I think there is way too much stick movement on the
Elite and I am curious how it differs from the Rebel. If I kept with the
stock stick and put in 27/20 degrees, my arm would not have enough throw to
move it from one end to the other.
Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

I'll second that ! Also could put more load on the horns -
spoils your whole day when they bend or tear off !! That is one
reason I don't like the idea of running a cable forward & around
a pully for up elevator - all the loads are on one horn, and
they alternate with movement - sounds like a recipe for metal
fatigue !!

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 02 January 2006 05:36 pm, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
It will also make your elevator movement more sensitive..since for any
given
movement of the stick for/aft the elevator will have more movement. Not
sure
how great a thing this will be on the Elite considering the reports
appear
it is pitch sensitive to start with.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

Here's what I came up with today. If I extend my control horns 1/2" on
the
control column my stick is no longer an issue with the panel. I can
then
make my stick 3" longer with the stick offset kept to the top. I could
make
new sticks with minumal length at the top to accept the grip and then
add
the rest to the bottom. This make for more room between the legs for
crosswind taxi. The new stick would when going full down, would be
close
to
hitting at mid panel height. I mocked up the 2 needed extensions out of
aluminum and will machine them from a piece of steel. They will be
bolted
on
with 2 AN3 bolts. The sample can be seen at
www.mikeselite.com/images/controlhorn1.jpg
www.mikeselite.com/images/controlhorn2.jpg
Anybody see a problem with doing this?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Betti" <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

setup.
my
Rebels
can't
measuring
geometry
rudder
wraps.
;-)
cylinders
E-controls.
I
beef
build
arrangement
fore
inadvertantly.
the
mount /
the
considering
is
would
easier

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Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

I like that idea. I was wondering how I was going to bend my back over that
tube someday.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

Mike, another thing you might like to do (copied from Ralph Baker) is to
lop
off the flanges on the right hand bearing support and replace them with
aluminum angle riveted to the floor and bolted to the bearing support.
That
way, you can remove the control column any time you want to do maintenance
on it, or do a lot of work under the panel.

Al

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Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Thanks for the tip Wayne.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

You can also simply tap the holes for the right bracket. If not yet
drilled
full size for rivets to 10-32 and if already at #11 drill and tap them for
1/4-24 AN4-3A bolts.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

Mike, another thing you might like to do (copied from Ralph Baker) is to
lop
off the flanges on the right hand bearing support and replace them with
aluminum angle riveted to the floor and bolted to the bearing support.
That
way, you can remove the control column any time you want to do
maintenance
on it, or do a lot of work under the panel.

Al

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

119R has 17 inches of fore/aft stick movement. That's at the top of the
stick which is 14.5" above the left/right pivot bolt. The stick has 5"
of offset (moved firewall) and yes it is "awkward" to get full aileron
in with the stick full back. From memory that gave me about 28* up and a
bit over 20* down elevator.

I realize that the Elite is different but early on MAM redesigned the
Rebel elevator bellcrank (back in the tail) to increase stick movement
and reduce elevator sensitivity. I'll bet your arm will reach further
than you estimate if you need it too.... ;)

Ken

Mike Betti wrote:

That brings me to one of my questions, how much stick movement is there from
fore to aft on a Rebel? I think there is way too much stick movement on the
Elite and I am curious how it differs from the Rebel. If I kept with the
stock stick and put in 27/20 degrees, my arm would not have enough throw to
move it from one end to the other.
Mike

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Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

Thanks for the info. My stock stick is 16" above pivot bolt, has 5" offset,
and would have 19" of travel to give me 10 degrees down and 25 degrees up.
Robin at MAM sound ok with the changes I want to make but I am forwarding
him some pics and dimensions first.
Bob, I really don't see getting any stick in the comfortable position you
mention here with out cutting off the stick severly. Although I can always
choke up on it when in cruise.
Bob is the stick straight up and down in nuetral?
Thanks to everyone,
Mike Betti
771E

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals/stick

119R has 17 inches of fore/aft stick movement. That's at the top of the
stick which is 14.5" above the left/right pivot bolt. The stick has 5"
of offset (moved firewall) and yes it is "awkward" to get full aileron
in with the stick full back. From memory that gave me about 28* up and a
bit over 20* down elevator.

I realize that the Elite is different but early on MAM redesigned the
Rebel elevator bellcrank (back in the tail) to increase stick movement
and reduce elevator sensitivity. I'll bet your arm will reach further
than you estimate if you need it too.... ;)

Ken

Mike Betti wrote:

That brings me to one of my questions, how much stick movement is there
from
fore to aft on a Rebel? I think there is way too much stick movement on
the
Elite and I am curious how it differs from the Rebel. If I kept with the
stock stick and put in 27/20 degrees, my arm would not have enough throw
to
move it from one end to the other.
Mike

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