1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Just thought I would post again with a proper subject for future searches!

----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne G. O'Shea (oifa@irishfield.on.ca)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: Project Update



Steve, FYI, and everyone else's, here are Howard's #'s when I put his on 1800 Amphibs.

Floats weighed 258lbs c/w spreaders/struts and all rigging except steps.
Steps probably added about 8lbs.
Selector valve ~ 2lb
Hydraulic hoses in a/c ~ 4lb
Hand pump ~ 2 lb
Reservoir ~ 1 lb
Gallon of Dextron III ~ 7 lb
that totals about 282 lbs

Removed faired main bungee gear (with die spring struts), JDM wheels and 8 x 6 turf tires = 60lb
Removed wishbone and "v" tubes to clean up = 1lb
Removed tailwheel (Scott 3200) = 8 lb

Therefore floats added approximately 213 pounds to the empty weight in his installation.

You can wipe that sweat from your forehead, now!

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: SWSLOANLK@aol.com (SWSLOANLK@aol.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: Project Update


Walter:
A 300 lb increase has got me nervous. I am hoping for only a 200 lb net increase making my empty weight Just under 1100 lbs.( AC 892 lb plus 243 lb floats less 18 lb gear work less 25 lb fairings )
It would be helpful if I could get your AC empty weight empty CG and preformance spec. before and after the float installation.

Steve Sloan

[Walter Klatt]

Wow, those are definitley a way lighter than mine. Did Howard's have all the pump-outs installed?

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 5:11 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Just thought I would post again with a proper subject for future searches!

----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne G. O'Shea (oifa@irishfield.on.ca)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: Project Update



Steve, FYI, and everyone else's, here are Howard's #'s when I put his on 1800 Amphibs.

Floats weighed 258lbs c/w spreaders/struts and all rigging except steps.
Steps probably added about 8lbs.
Selector valve ~ 2lb
Hydraulic hoses in a/c ~ 4lb
Hand pump ~ 2 lb
Reservoir ~ 1 lb
Gallon of Dextron III ~ 7 lb
that totals about 282 lbs

Removed faired main bungee gear (with die spring struts), JDM wheels and 8 x 6 turf tires = 60lb
Removed wishbone and "v" tubes to clean up = 1lb
Removed tailwheel (Scott 3200) = 8 lb

Therefore floats added approximately 213 pounds to the empty weight in his installation.

You can wipe that sweat from your forehead, now!

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: SWSLOANLK@aol.com (SWSLOANLK@aol.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: Project Update


Walter:
A 300 lb increase has got me nervous. I am hoping for only a 200 lb net increase making my empty weight Just under 1100 lbs.( AC 892 lb plus 243 lb floats less 18 lb gear work less 25 lb fairings )
It would be helpful if I could get your AC empty weight empty CG and preformance spec. before and after the float installation.

Steve Sloan

[Walter Klatt]

Maybe it's all those solid rivets they put in... Yes, mine did have a lot of proseal goop all around the seams, and they were all primed on the inside. Also, had a couple of zincs attached. Not sure what my skins are, but they do seem pretty beefy, especially on the bottom, but I have nothing else to compare to, so don't really know if they are different.

This makes me want to weigh mine again, although I did do it twice as I recall. I gave back the scales I borrowed, so will have to leave it for awhile.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:31 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Yes! 16 Lake-n-Air aluminum pump out cups and hoses! My weighing might be a little light (but I think it's darn close!), but it confirms fairly closely with the 1500's I removed from FOKM this fall (the shorter 21" of aluminum, of an average of .026 skin thickness, and one bulkhead won't change much). FOKM's floats when removed weighed in at 277 lbs with ALL rigging, all steps (same 8 pounds extra as below), all lines still filled with fluid, etc., 2 paddles still mounted to the floats, 4 pool "woggles" bonded to the side skins at chines for more floatation (like the Baron upgross for the Beaver, but $20 and not $3000!) and most likely a few pounds of water still in them at the time! Everything but the hand pump/reservior and selector valve.

Remember both of these float sets are bare aluminum inside and out. Side skins are .020. Bottoms are .032 nose to step area and .025 rear skins. I don't know what yours are Walter, but I do know that MAM started making heavier skins available. Plus I believe yours have that heavy epoxy primer on them, if they look like the ones in the "paradise" work shop photos of floats going together.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt (Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Wow, those are definitley a way lighter than mine. Did Howard's have all the pump-outs installed?

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com) [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 5:11 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Subject: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Just thought I would post again with a proper subject for future searches!

----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne G. O'Shea (oifa@irishfield.on.ca)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: Project Update



Steve, FYI, and everyone else's, here are Howard's #'s when I put his on 1800 Amphibs.

Floats weighed 258lbs c/w spreaders/struts and all rigging except steps.
Steps probably added about 8lbs.
Selector valve ~ 2lb
Hydraulic hoses in a/c ~ 4lb
Hand pump ~ 2 lb
Reservoir ~ 1 lb
Gallon of Dextron III ~ 7 lb
that totals about 282 lbs

Removed faired main bungee gear (with die spring struts), JDM wheels and 8 x 6 turf tires = 60lb
Removed wishbone and "v" tubes to clean up = 1lb
Removed tailwheel (Scott 3200) = 8 lb

Therefore floats added approximately 213 pounds to the empty weight in his installation.

You can wipe that sweat from your forehead, now!

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

The solids rivets would actually make them weigh LESS. Solid aluminum is lighter than aluminum with steel mandrels!

If they are thicker skins, won't take much! Just think about it! If you up'd every skin and bulkhead thickness by the next thicker sheet size, that would be an overall weight increase of 25%. (ie .020 to .025" is 25%, .025 to .032. is 28% .032 to .040 is 25%.) That would in theory take you from 258 to 322lbs <IF> the spreaders and gear struts were heavier also. So, if you even have side and rear bottom skins of the heavier gauge, you're not far off with your weight!

That's why Wipline 2100 amphib's weight 368 pounds (and my EDO 3500 amphib's = 750 pounds complete). They are basically the same floats, but have skins a thickness heavier than the original MAM 1800's and a few other "certified" things added!

Don't worry about it! It climbs like a home sick angle doesn't it!!!!!!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt (Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 9:54 PM
Subject: RE: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Maybe it's all those solid rivets they put in... Yes, mine did have a lot of proseal goop all around the seams, and they were all primed on the inside. Also, had a couple of zincs attached. Not sure what my skins are, but they do seem pretty beefy, especially on the bottom, but I have nothing else to compare to, so don't really know if they are different.

This makes me want to weigh mine again, although I did do it twice as I recall. I gave back the scales I borrowed, so will have to leave it for awhile.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:31 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Yes! 16 Lake-n-Air aluminum pump out cups and hoses! My weighing might be a little light (but I think it's darn close!), but it confirms fairly closely with the 1500's I removed from FOKM this fall (the shorter 21" of aluminum, of an average of .026 skin thickness, and one bulkhead won't change much). FOKM's floats when removed weighed in at 277 lbs with ALL rigging, all steps (same 8 pounds extra as below), all lines still filled with fluid, etc., 2 paddles still mounted to the floats, 4 pool "woggles" bonded to the side skins at chines for more floatation (like the Baron upgross for the Beaver, but $20 and not $3000!) and most likely a few pounds of water still in them at the time! Everything but the hand pump/reservior and selector valve.

Remember both of these float sets are bare aluminum inside and out. Side skins are .020. Bottoms are .032 nose to step area and .025 rear skins. I don't know what yours are Walter, but I do know that MAM started making heavier skins available. Plus I believe yours have that heavy epoxy primer on them, if they look like the ones in the "paradise" work shop photos of floats going together.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt (Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Wow, those are definitley a way lighter than mine. Did Howard's have all the pump-outs installed?

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Just to add to this before someone tells me I'm full of sh#*! I did say "in theory" as of course the wheels, hydraulic cyinders etc wouldn't get any heavier so you would have to subtract their weight before you did the x 1.25 thing and then add them back in for a total weight!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea (oifa@irishfield.on.ca)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


The solids rivets would actually make them weigh LESS. Solid aluminum is lighter than aluminum with steel mandrels!

If they are thicker skins, won't take much! Just think about it! If you up'd every skin and bulkhead thickness by the next thicker sheet size, that would be an overall weight increase of 25%. (ie .020 to .025" is 25%, .025 to .032. is 28% .032 to .040 is 25%.) That would in theory take you from 258 to 322lbs <IF> the spreaders and gear struts were heavier also. So, if you even have side and rear bottom skins of the heavier gauge, you're not far off with your weight!

That's why Wipline 2100 amphib's weight 368 pounds (and my EDO 3500 amphib's = 750 pounds complete). They are basically the same floats, but have skins a thickness heavier than the original MAM 1800's and a few other "certified" things added!

Don't worry about it! It climbs like a home sick angle doesn't it!!!!!!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt (Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 9:54 PM
Subject: RE: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Maybe it's all those solid rivets they put in... Yes, mine did have a lot of proseal goop all around the seams, and they were all primed on the inside. Also, had a couple of zincs attached. Not sure what my skins are, but they do seem pretty beefy, especially on the bottom, but I have nothing else to compare to, so don't really know if they are different.

This makes me want to weigh mine again, although I did do it twice as I recall. I gave back the scales I borrowed, so will have to leave it for awhile.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:31 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Yes! 16 Lake-n-Air aluminum pump out cups and hoses! My weighing might be a little light (but I think it's darn close!), but it confirms fairly closely with the 1500's I removed from FOKM this fall (the shorter 21" of aluminum, of an average of .026 skin thickness, and one bulkhead won't change much). FOKM's floats when removed weighed in at 277 lbs with ALL rigging, all steps (same 8 pounds extra as below), all lines still filled with fluid, etc., 2 paddles still mounted to the floats, 4 pool "woggles" bonded to the side skins at chines for more floatation (like the Baron upgross for the Beaver, but $20 and not $3000!) and most likely a few pounds of water still in them at the time! Everything but the hand pump/reservior and selector valve.

Remember both of these float sets are bare aluminum inside and out. Side skins are .020. Bottoms are .032 nose to step area and .025 rear skins. I don't know what yours are Walter, but I do know that MAM started making heavier skins available. Plus I believe yours have that heavy epoxy primer on them, if they look like the ones in the "paradise" work shop photos of floats going together.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

[Walter Klatt]

Yes, I am still happy with it, even if it might be a bit heavy. It definitely climbs good, especially in this cold weather.

This rear float hard point pucker factor that's been mentioned earlier, though, has me concerned. So far there is no sign of it on mine, but would like to fix it before it starts. Sooner or later, I am going to encounter real rough water. I had a look the other day on what it would take to undo the floor and sides, and I don't like the looks of it. I remember you mentioning that you might try fixing it with a "band aid" on the outside. I think I'll try that. A little paint touch-up is a lot less work than ripping apart the inside. I can see how those little C cut-outs in the bulkheads present a weak spot, so if I put a patch on the outside to cover them, maybe that will do it. Not sure of the exact size or thickness to use, so Wayne, if you do it to Howard's, please let me know exactly how you do it.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 7:15 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


The solids rivets would actually make them weigh LESS. Solid aluminum is lighter than aluminum with steel mandrels!

If they are thicker skins, won't take much! Just think about it! If you up'd every skin and bulkhead thickness by the next thicker sheet size, that would be an overall weight increase of 25%. (ie .020 to .025" is 25%, .025 to .032. is 28% .032 to .040 is 25%.) That would in theory take you from 258 to 322lbs <IF> the spreaders and gear struts were heavier also. So, if you even have side and rear bottom skins of the heavier gauge, you're not far off with your weight!

That's why Wipline 2100 amphib's weight 368 pounds (and my EDO 3500 amphib's = 750 pounds complete). They are basically the same floats, but have skins a thickness heavier than the original MAM 1800's and a few other "certified" things added!

Don't worry about it! It climbs like a home sick angle doesn't it!!!!!!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt (Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 9:54 PM
Subject: RE: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Maybe it's all those solid rivets they put in... Yes, mine did have a lot of proseal goop all around the seams, and they were all primed on the inside. Also, had a couple of zincs attached. Not sure what my skins are, but they do seem pretty beefy, especially on the bottom, but I have nothing else to compare to, so don't really know if they are different.

This makes me want to weigh mine again, although I did do it twice as I recall. I gave back the scales I borrowed, so will have to leave it for awhile.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 6:31 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Yes! 16 Lake-n-Air aluminum pump out cups and hoses! My weighing might be a little light (but I think it's darn close!), but it confirms fairly closely with the 1500's I removed from FOKM this fall (the shorter 21" of aluminum, of an average of .026 skin thickness, and one bulkhead won't change much). FOKM's floats when removed weighed in at 277 lbs with ALL rigging, all steps (same 8 pounds extra as below), all lines still filled with fluid, etc., 2 paddles still mounted to the floats, 4 pool "woggles" bonded to the side skins at chines for more floatation (like the Baron upgross for the Beaver, but $20 and not $3000!) and most likely a few pounds of water still in them at the time! Everything but the hand pump/reservior and selector valve.

Remember both of these float sets are bare aluminum inside and out. Side skins are .020. Bottoms are .032 nose to step area and .025 rear skins. I don't know what yours are Walter, but I do know that MAM started making heavier skins available. Plus I believe yours have that heavy epoxy primer on them, if they look like the ones in the "paradise" work shop photos of floats going together.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Yes! 16 Lake-n-Air aluminum pump out cups and hoses! My weighing might be a little light (but I think it's darn close!), but it confirms fairly closely with the 1500's I removed from FOKM this fall (the shorter 21" of aluminum, of an average of .026 skin thickness, and one bulkhead won't change much). FOKM's floats when removed weighed in at 277 lbs with ALL rigging, all steps (same 8 pounds extra as below), all lines still filled with fluid, etc., 2 paddles still mounted to the floats, 4 pool "woggles" bonded to the side skins at chines for more floatation (like the Baron upgross for the Beaver, but $20 and not $3000!) and most likely a few pounds of water still in them at the time! Everything but the hand pump/reservior and selector valve.

Remember both of these float sets are bare aluminum inside and out. Side skins are .020. Bottoms are .032 nose to step area and .025 rear skins. I don't know what yours are Walter, but I do know that MAM started making heavier skins available. Plus I believe yours have that heavy epoxy primer on them, if they look like the ones in the "paradise" work shop photos of floats going together.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt (Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Wow, those are definitley a way lighter than mine. Did Howard's have all the pump-outs installed?

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com) [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 5:11 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Subject: 1800 Amphib A/C Empty Weight increase


Just thought I would post again with a proper subject for future searches!

----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne G. O'Shea (oifa@irishfield.on.ca)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: Project Update



Steve, FYI, and everyone else's, here are Howard's #'s when I put his on 1800 Amphibs.

Floats weighed 258lbs c/w spreaders/struts and all rigging except steps.
Steps probably added about 8lbs.
Selector valve ~ 2lb
Hydraulic hoses in a/c ~ 4lb
Hand pump ~ 2 lb
Reservoir ~ 1 lb
Gallon of Dextron III ~ 7 lb
that totals about 282 lbs

Removed faired main bungee gear (with die spring struts), JDM wheels and 8 x 6 turf tires = 60lb
Removed wishbone and "v" tubes to clean up = 1lb
Removed tailwheel (Scott 3200) = 8 lb

Therefore floats added approximately 213 pounds to the empty weight in his installation.

You can wipe that sweat from your forehead, now!

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: SWSLOANLK@aol.com (SWSLOANLK@aol.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: Project Update


Walter:
A 300 lb increase has got me nervous. I am hoping for only a 200 lb net increase making my empty weight Just under 1100 lbs.( AC 892 lb plus 243 lb floats less 18 lb gear work less 25 lb fairings )
It would be helpful if I could get your AC empty weight empty CG and preformance spec. before and after the float installation.

Steve Sloan

[klehman]

Walter

I added exterior patches before the inner floor went in and it was still
tricky with the compound curve there and the four panels meeting at that
corner. I ended up with one patch on the forward bulkhead and another on
the rear partial bulkhead (about 1/8" overlap between them) and a couple
of spacers to allow for the different surfaces (heights?) of the
original panels. I figured it wasn't worth doing unless you picked up at
least 4 rivets on each bulkhead on each side of the cutout. And of
course if you end up with oval rivet holes it might be worse than doing
nothing.

Ken

"Walter Klatt" wrote:
This rear float hard point pucker factor that's been mentioned earlier, though, has me concerned. So far

there is no sign of it on mine, but would like to fix it before it
starts. Sooner or later, I am going to
encounter real rough water. I had a look the other day on what it would
take to undo the floor and sides,
and I don't like the looks of it. I remember you mentioning that you
might try fixing it with a "band aid"
on the outside. I think I'll try that. A little paint touch-up is a lot
less work than ripping apart the inside. I
can see how those little C cut-outs in the bulkheads present a weak
spot, so if I put a patch on the
outside to cover them, maybe that will do it. Not sure of the exact size
or thickness to use, so Wayne,
if you do it to Howard's, please let me know exactly how you do it.





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[SWSLOANLK]

Walter & Wayne

Thanks for the info, it' was just what I was looking for.

Steve Sloan

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