Fuselage building questions

[Mike Kimball]

Sorry for the following big dump. I should trickle this stuff out on the
list, one topic at a time. Anyway, here goes...

I am at the point where I am to begin attaching the tailcone to the cabin.
The manual told me to rivet the bottom tailcone skin to the cabin at this
time, and apparently leaves the sides and top for attachment at some later
time (which I haven't identified in the manual yet). I decided to not rivet
the bottom until all four sides are ready to rivet so that I can properly
scotchbrite and chromate everything and rivet wet as is recommended. This
sound familiar to anyone?

I am proceeding with the corner wraps. Anyone have any suggestions for
forming the piece that transitions from the rear of the cabin to the first
corner wrap? The manual says if you don't have a shrinker/stretcher (and I
don't) that it can be formed by hanging the piece over the edge of the table
and tapping it down with a large wooden dowel or even a baseball bat. I
tried to picture how that could be done and couldn't figure out how that
would work. Am I going to need a shrinker/stretcher for more stuff later?
If so, I guess I'll fork out the bucks for a tool I probably won't ever use
again after this project. By the way, I can see how the shrinker works on
the edge of a piece like a rib, but are those little jaws applied to a big
piece like this one to tighten up the curved part to match the curve of the
corner wrap. (Obvious I've never used one, eh?)

I am thinking about removing the part of the left side skin on the tailcone
where the cargo door will go now to make attaching the angle brackets/shear
webs to the bottom tailcone skin easier. The manual has you waiting until
much later to remove the side skin at the cargo door area. Does this sound
familiar to anyone? Any traps here?

I can't figure out what's to prevent a twist from developing in the entire
tailcone section while I continue drilling and adding stuff like corner
wraps. I keep an eye on it as best I can by eyeballing, taking measurements
up from the table, and such, but I still worry that my vertical stabilizer
will end up tilted to one side or the other. I can't see what I could do to
prevent it anyway since there's so much stuff prepunched. Am I worrying
about nothing?

I reviewed my Fletcher Aircraft Handbook and it gives the maximum amount of
material that can be removed with a ream. Then I checked the numbered,
letter size, and fractional bits to see what bit to use prior to reaming
holes such as 5/16, 7/16, and 1/2 inch holes that are common on the SR.
None of the available bits got me close enough based on the handbook's
"maximum amount of material to be removed with a ream". What's up with
that?

Lastly, I noticed on Hartzell's website that they don't recommend using
their propellors on auto engine conversions because, and I quote "we do not
endorse the use of Hartzell propellers on non-certified engines due to the
lack of demonstrated engine/propeller vibrational compatibility". This is a
cause for concern since I had hoped to use a constant speed, three blade
prop with a Chevy LS-1 conversion using a CAM500 PSRU. Despite this
warning, the Hartzell website has a strong Kitplane section. They just want
you to use known engine/prop combinations.

Mike Kimball
SR #044




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[Mike Kimball]

About the shrinker question I sent earlier, it should have said, "...how are
those little jaws applied to a big piece..."

Thanks,

Mike Kimball

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Sorry for the following big dump. I should trickle this stuff out on the
list, one topic at a time. Anyway, here goes...

I am at the point where I am to begin attaching the tailcone to the cabin.
The manual told me to rivet the bottom tailcone skin to the cabin at this
time, and apparently leaves the sides and top for attachment at some later
time (which I haven't identified in the manual yet). I decided to not rivet
the bottom until all four sides are ready to rivet so that I can properly
scotchbrite and chromate everything and rivet wet as is recommended. This
sound familiar to anyone?

I am proceeding with the corner wraps. Anyone have any suggestions for
forming the piece that transitions from the rear of the cabin to the first
corner wrap? The manual says if you don't have a shrinker/stretcher (and I
don't) that it can be formed by hanging the piece over the edge of the table
and tapping it down with a large wooden dowel or even a baseball bat. I
tried to picture how that could be done and couldn't figure out how that
would work. Am I going to need a shrinker/stretcher for more stuff later?
If so, I guess I'll fork out the bucks for a tool I probably won't ever use
again after this project. By the way, I can see how the shrinker works on
the edge of a piece like a rib, but are those little jaws applied to a big
piece like this one to tighten up the curved part to match the curve of the
corner wrap. (Obvious I've never used one, eh?)

I am thinking about removing the part of the left side skin on the tailcone
where the cargo door will go now to make attaching the angle brackets/shear
webs to the bottom tailcone skin easier. The manual has you waiting until
much later to remove the side skin at the cargo door area. Does this sound
familiar to anyone? Any traps here?

I can't figure out what's to prevent a twist from developing in the entire
tailcone section while I continue drilling and adding stuff like corner
wraps. I keep an eye on it as best I can by eyeballing, taking measurements
up from the table, and such, but I still worry that my vertical stabilizer
will end up tilted to one side or the other. I can't see what I could do to
prevent it anyway since there's so much stuff prepunched. Am I worrying
about nothing?

I reviewed my Fletcher Aircraft Handbook and it gives the maximum amount of
material that can be removed with a ream. Then I checked the numbered,
letter size, and fractional bits to see what bit to use prior to reaming
holes such as 5/16, 7/16, and 1/2 inch holes that are common on the SR.
None of the available bits got me close enough based on the handbook's
"maximum amount of material to be removed with a ream". What's up with
that?

Lastly, I noticed on Hartzell's website that they don't recommend using
their propellors on auto engine conversions because, and I quote "we do not
endorse the use of Hartzell propellers on non-certified engines due to the
lack of demonstrated engine/propeller vibrational compatibility". This is a
cause for concern since I had hoped to use a constant speed, three blade
prop with a Chevy LS-1 conversion using a CAM500 PSRU. Despite this
warning, the Hartzell website has a strong Kitplane section. They just want
you to use known engine/prop combinations.

Mike Kimball
SR #044

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[Al & Deb Paxhia]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Kimball" <agt@mosquitonet.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: Fuselage building questions

Sorry for the following big dump. I should trickle this stuff out on

the

list, one topic at a time. Anyway, here goes...

I am at the point where I am to begin attaching the tailcone to the cabin.
...............chromate everything and rivet wet as is recommended. This
sound familiar to anyone?

Yes, I waited and did the tail cone at one time.

I am proceeding with the corner wraps. Anyone have any suggestions for
forming the piece that transitions from the rear of the cabin to the first
corner wrap? The manual says if you don't have a shrinker/stretcher (and

I

don't) that ...................

The sills were to difficult for me to form so I cut tabs on the corner wrap
and put the tabs under the sill.

I am thinking about removing the part of the left side skin on the

tailcone

where the cargo door will go now to make attaching the angle

brackets/shear

webs to the bottom tailcone skin easier. The manual has you waiting until
much later to remove the side skin at the cargo door area. Does this

sound

familiar to anyone? Any traps here?

I attached the tail cone and then built the cargo door frame. No traps

that I can remember.

I can't figure out what's to prevent a twist from developing in the entire
tailcone section while I continue drilling and adding stuff like corner
wraps. ...........Am I worrying about nothing?

I used several supports under the cabin floor and floor stand at the end of
the tailcone. The floor stand had angles clecoed to sides of aft end of the
tailcone.

I reviewed my Fletcher Aircraft Handbook and it gives the maximum amount

of

..........................................> "maximum amount of material to

be removed with a ream". What's up with

that?

Look around for under sized reamers, I found some at Boeing Surplus and

others from friends. I don't know "Fletcher" but I do know that most of my
bolts were under size and holes reamed to full size will give a sloppy fit.

Lastly, I noticed on Hartzell's website that they don't recommend using
..............................................................tant speed,

three blade

prop with a Chevy LS-1 conversion using a CAM500 PSRU. Despite this
warning, the Hartzell website has a strong Kitplane section. They just

want

you to use known engine/prop combinations.

Don't know.

Mike Kimball
SR #044

Al Paxhia
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[mike.davis]

Mike;
I had problems at the sill to tailcone joint also.
I have uploaded two photos to section 59 (SR2500
fuselage). These are photos that Grant sent me
when I asked about it. I used a handheld shrinker
when I did mine as my sill was alreay mounted. I
may have also done a little tapping with a body
hammer - I can't remember.

RE: the LS1 and PSRU
We are getting our PSRUs together and I have just
started researching the LS1 block and crank
dimensions to see what it would take to get the
Geschwender to fit.

We have just begun a web site at :
http://www.alternateairpower.com
and I have started putting up my SR photos at:
http://users.owt.com/worden/


John

At 12:54 PM 6/20/01 -0800, you wrote:

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Sorry for the following big dump. I should

trickle this stuff out on the

list, one topic at a time. Anyway, here

goes...

I am at the point where I am to begin

attaching the tailcone to the cabin.

The manual told me to rivet the bottom

tailcone skin to the cabin at this

time, and apparently leaves the sides and top

for attachment at some later

time (which I haven't identified in the manual

yet). I decided to not rivet

the bottom until all four sides are ready to

rivet so that I can properly

scotchbrite and chromate everything and rivet

wet as is recommended. This

sound familiar to anyone?

I am proceeding with the corner wraps. Anyone

have any suggestions for

forming the piece that transitions from the

rear of the cabin to the first

corner wrap? The manual says if you don't

have a shrinker/stretcher (and I

don't) that it can be formed by hanging the

piece over the edge of the table

and tapping it down with a large wooden dowel

or even a baseball bat. I

tried to picture how that could be done and

couldn't figure out how that

would work. Am I going to need a

shrinker/stretcher for more stuff later?

If so, I guess I'll fork out the bucks for a

tool I probably won't ever use

again after this project. By the way, I can

see how the shrinker works on

the edge of a piece like a rib, but are those

little jaws applied to a big

piece like this one to tighten up the curved

part to match the curve of the

corner wrap. (Obvious I've never used one,

eh?)

I am thinking about removing the part of the

left side skin on the tailcone

where the cargo door will go now to make

attaching the angle brackets/shear

webs to the bottom tailcone skin easier. The

manual has you waiting until

much later to remove the side skin at the

cargo door area. Does this sound

familiar to anyone? Any traps here?

I can't figure out what's to prevent a twist

from developing in the entire

tailcone section while I continue drilling and

adding stuff like corner

wraps. I keep an eye on it as best I can by

eyeballing, taking measurements

up from the table, and such, but I still worry

that my vertical stabilizer

will end up tilted to one side or the other.

I can't see what I could do to

prevent it anyway since there's so much stuff

prepunched. Am I worrying

about nothing?

I reviewed my Fletcher Aircraft Handbook and

it gives the maximum amount of

material that can be removed with a ream.

Then I checked the numbered,

letter size, and fractional bits to see what

bit to use prior to reaming

holes such as 5/16, 7/16, and 1/2 inch holes

that are common on the SR.

None of the available bits got me close enough

based on the handbook's

"maximum amount of material to be removed with

a ream". What's up with

that?

Lastly, I noticed on Hartzell's website that

they don't recommend using

their propellors on auto engine conversions

because, and I quote "we do not

endorse the use of Hartzell propellers on non-

certified engines due to the

lack of demonstrated engine/propeller

vibrational compatibility". This is a

cause for concern since I had hoped to use a

constant speed, three blade

prop with a Chevy LS-1 conversion using a

CAM500 PSRU. Despite this

warning, the Hartzell website has a strong

Kitplane section. They just want

you to use known engine/prop combinations.

Mike Kimball
SR #044

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[klehman]

Mike

In regards to the heavy bench mounted shrinker, I've never seen one used
on anything wider than a 1" flange. Mine has never been used as it
always puts indentations into the metal that I consider unacceptable.
Perhaps there is a secret to their use?? OTOH I use a hand held pliers
type "shrinker" that puts little waves in the metal extensively on wing
ribs etc. They are cheap although I made my own out of a cheap set of
vice grips.

I don't recall having any trouble getting a reamer through a 1/64" or
1/32" smaller hole. A little careful filing us always an option first I
guess. Yes I also prefer the 0.001" undersize reamers for a better bolt
fit. KBC tools sell them cheaply and cheap ones are fine for aluminum.

You are somewhat into unknown territory whenever you mount a prop on a
psru or uncertified engine. Same reason you can only use certain
certified (tested) props on a specific certified engine. On a homebuilt,
if possible, it's nice to use a combination
that others have used successfully but even that doesn't guarantee no
surprises down the road. Unfortunately these one of a kind applications
are never tested for torsional vibration. I did not realize that the
Cam500 even had provision for the governed oil supply necessary to run a
conventional constant speed prop??

Ken

Mike Kimball wrote:




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[capete]

Mike Kimball wrote:

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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username: rebel password: builder
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Sorry for the following big dump. I should trickle this stuff out on the
list, one topic at a time. Anyway, here goes...

I am at the point where I am to begin attaching the tailcone to the cabin.
The manual told me to rivet the bottom tailcone skin to the cabin at this
time, and apparently leaves the sides and top for attachment at some later
time (which I haven't identified in the manual yet). I decided to not rivet
the bottom until all four sides are ready to rivet so that I can properly
scotchbrite and chromate everything and rivet wet as is recommended. This
sound familiar to anyone?

-- We riveted the bottom on early as clecoes were a pain - but no problem
waiting till later. We still don't have the sills on which is great since we
would have to take them off for the upgrade kit!

I am proceeding with the corner wraps. Anyone have any suggestions for
forming the piece that transitions from the rear of the cabin to the first
corner wrap? The manual says if you don't have a shrinker/stretcher (and I
don't) that it can be formed by hanging the piece over the edge of the table
and tapping it down with a large wooden dowel or even a baseball bat. I
tried to picture how that could be done and couldn't figure out how that
would work. Am I going to need a shrinker/stretcher for more stuff later?
If so, I guess I'll fork out the bucks for a tool I probably won't ever use
again after this project. By the way, I can see how the shrinker works on
the edge of a piece like a rib, but are those little jaws applied to a big
piece like this one to tighten up the curved part to match the curve of the
corner wrap. (Obvious I've never used one, eh?)

-- We bought a shrinker/stretcher for US Tool (TP372C) as they had a special on
a the time. We used the shrinker jaws to make the corner wrap fit under the
sill and yes it does leave marks but we preferred the fit it gave as opposed to
fluting pliers. We also used the stretcher jaws (leaves less marks) to make the
top corner wrap sit nicely.

I am thinking about removing the part of the left side skin on the tailcone
where the cargo door will go now to make attaching the angle brackets/shear
webs to the bottom tailcone skin easier. The manual has you waiting until
much later to remove the side skin at the cargo door area. Does this sound
familiar to anyone? Any traps here?

-- No traps. Just make sure you keep the tail level the whole time.

I can't figure out what's to prevent a twist from developing in the entire
tailcone section while I continue drilling and adding stuff like corner
wraps. I keep an eye on it as best I can by eyeballing, taking measurements
up from the table, and such, but I still worry that my vertical stabilizer
will end up tilted to one side or the other. I can't see what I could do to
prevent it anyway since there's so much stuff prepunched. Am I worrying
about nothing?

-- We put the end of the tailcone up on our drill press and put a level on it.
Before drilling into the ribs (forget the exact word for them - A B C D E F G)
we clamped some wood to them to keep everything straight - just notch the wood
for the skin.

I reviewed my Fletcher Aircraft Handbook and it gives the maximum amount of
material that can be removed with a ream. Then I checked the numbered,
letter size, and fractional bits to see what bit to use prior to reaming
holes such as 5/16, 7/16, and 1/2 inch holes that are common on the SR.
None of the available bits got me close enough based on the handbook's
"maximum amount of material to be removed with a ream". What's up with
that?

Lastly, I noticed on Hartzell's website that they don't recommend using
their propellors on auto engine conversions because, and I quote "we do not
endorse the use of Hartzell propellers on non-certified engines due to the
lack of demonstrated engine/propeller vibrational compatibility". This is a
cause for concern since I had hoped to use a constant speed, three blade
prop with a Chevy LS-1 conversion using a CAM500 PSRU. Despite this
warning, the Hartzell website has a strong Kitplane section. They just want
you to use known engine/prop combinations.

Mike Kimball
SR #044

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[Bob Patterson]

At 12:54 PM 6/20/01 -0800, you wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am proceeding with the corner wraps. Anyone have any suggestions for
forming the piece that transitions from the rear of the cabin to the first
corner wrap? The manual says if you don't have a shrinker/stretcher (and I
don't) that it can be formed by hanging the piece over the edge of the table
and tapping it down with a large wooden dowel or even a baseball bat. I
tried to picture how that could be done and couldn't figure out how that
would work. Am I going to need a shrinker/stretcher for more stuff later?
If so, I guess I'll fork out the bucks for a tool I probably won't ever use
again after this project. By the way, I can see how the shrinker works on
the edge of a piece like a rib, but are those little jaws applied to a big
piece like this one to tighten up the curved part to match the curve of the
corner wrap. (Obvious I've never used one, eh?)

Some builders have been successful with a rubber mallet and a
sandbag, tapping the wrap in .....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, I noticed on Hartzell's website that they don't recommend using
their propellors on auto engine conversions because, and I quote "we do not
endorse the use of Hartzell propellers on non-certified engines due to the
lack of demonstrated engine/propeller vibrational compatibility". This is a
cause for concern since I had hoped to use a constant speed, three blade
prop with a Chevy LS-1 conversion using a CAM500 PSRU. Despite this
warning, the Hartzell website has a strong Kitplane section. They just want
you to use known engine/prop combinations.

Hartzell are just doing a legal 'CYA' - there's no way they can
tell how an untried combo will work.

Couple of thoughts .....

You might look at the Marcotte helical planetary gear drives -
good for 600 hp., and reasonably priced. They look VERY sturdy !
Contact Ray Fiset at: rayfiset@globetrotter.net for more info.
(I think they sell for about $3,500 ...) Guy Marcotte, (418) 362-2569,
in Quebec City. They have sold them for V-8's, Subarus, and others.

You might want to check out Crossflow Engineering for their
complete firewall-forward package for the Super Rebel. They have one
Super flying with the 6 cyl. Subaru, and another about a month away.
These engines run from 250 to about 340 hp., and fit nicely ! Their
redrive DOES support constant speed props. www.crossflow.com
(I think the price is about $20,000 complete, f/w fwd. )


.......bobp




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[Mike Kimball]

Well, I tried a car body dolly with a large radius curve and a sand bag, as
was suggested on the list. I tried the baseball bat method. They didn't
work for me at all. Must not be doing it right. The only thing that seemed
to start to work at all was merely grabbing the thing with my hands and
manually trying to increase the bend radius to fit the curve of the corner
wrap. I tried setting one edge on the table and pushing down on the other
edge with my hands. That worked a little too. I have a shrinker/stretcher
on order, but I still don't see how that will work on anything more than
just the edge. The jaws aren't big enough to affect the whole part.

Can anyone tell me if the same parts used for the tailcone corner wraps are
also used at the lower edge of the area ahead of the landing gear torsion
box, just behind the firewall, or anywhere else for that matter? I kind of
screwed one up, but I was given 11 pieces which seems like more than I need.
Can I use one of the other ones?

Mike Kimball (very frustrated)
SR#044

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Bob Patterson
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:11 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Fuselage building questions


*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The list archives are located at:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
At 12:54 PM 6/20/01 -0800, you wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am proceeding with the corner wraps. Anyone have any suggestions for
forming the piece that transitions from the rear of the cabin to the first
corner wrap? The manual says if you don't have a shrinker/stretcher (and I
don't) that it can be formed by hanging the piece over the edge of the

table

and tapping it down with a large wooden dowel or even a baseball bat. I
tried to picture how that could be done and couldn't figure out how that
would work. Am I going to need a shrinker/stretcher for more stuff later?
If so, I guess I'll fork out the bucks for a tool I probably won't ever use
again after this project. By the way, I can see how the shrinker works on
the edge of a piece like a rib, but are those little jaws applied to a big
piece like this one to tighten up the curved part to match the curve of the
corner wrap. (Obvious I've never used one, eh?)

Some builders have been successful with a rubber mallet and a
sandbag, tapping the wrap in .....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, I noticed on Hartzell's website that they don't recommend using
their propellors on auto engine conversions because, and I quote "we do not
endorse the use of Hartzell propellers on non-certified engines due to the
lack of demonstrated engine/propeller vibrational compatibility". This is

a

cause for concern since I had hoped to use a constant speed, three blade
prop with a Chevy LS-1 conversion using a CAM500 PSRU. Despite this
warning, the Hartzell website has a strong Kitplane section. They just

want

you to use known engine/prop combinations.

Hartzell are just doing a legal 'CYA' - there's no way they can
tell how an untried combo will work.

Couple of thoughts .....

You might look at the Marcotte helical planetary gear drives -
good for 600 hp., and reasonably priced. They look VERY sturdy !
Contact Ray Fiset at: rayfiset@globetrotter.net for more info.
(I think they sell for about $3,500 ...) Guy Marcotte, (418) 362-2569,
in Quebec City. They have sold them for V-8's, Subarus, and others.

You might want to check out Crossflow Engineering for their
complete firewall-forward package for the Super Rebel. They have one
Super flying with the 6 cyl. Subaru, and another about a month away.
These engines run from 250 to about 340 hp., and fit nicely ! Their
redrive DOES support constant speed props. www.crossflow.com
(I think the price is about $20,000 complete, f/w fwd. )


.......bobp

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[tjpackard]

Mike:
Sorry to hear the stretching techniques aren't working for you. Regarding
your question about the 11 curved panels used for the tail cone corner
wraps, I believe the 11th one is to be split into two and these two are
supposed to go between Bulkheads A and B on the top of the tail cone. The
ones you're trying to bend (with the 90 degree corner on the cabin end and
curved on the other end) should go from station 8 to bulkhead A. If you
didn't terminate these at bulkhead A, maybe this affects the fit and amount
of stretching required. If you want a photo or two of what I did, send me
your email address and I'll send you the photos.

Tom Packard
tjpackard@mmm.com




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