props

[Bob Patterson]

It's too bad that Ivo don't have something...

It IS UHS (was Unionville Hobby Supplies - when they made parts
for model aircraft, before they moved to the 'real thing'. !) :-)

UHS were extemely helpful - they even came out to the airport
to help me fit the spinner on my Rebel - it was the first one they had
done on a MacCauley 2 blade on a Lycoming... But, getting ANYTHING
done & approved for aircraft seems to take forever.

Good Luck !!
....bobp

------------------------------orig.------------------------------------------
At 11:11 PM 5/26/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob,

I fell for that mini spinner pic as well, but it's for the ultralight model
(even though it's shown in the Magnum pic). Ivo tell me that the motor end
plate in the pic is only available on the lighter motors.

UHS (? I think that's their name) in Markham are working with Ivo to get an
approved mount for their spinners (which cover the whole hub and are large
enough to be significant on the O320 -- close to flywheel diameter.). They
are going to call me when they've worked it out, like REAL SOON NOW (but I'm
not holding my breath).

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Props

Tom,
The Warp Drive props are solid carbon fiber, no core. They don't
have that nice gel-coat.

Took your advice & checked IVO's web site - it sounds like the
prop in question is an "ultralight" model - might not be up to heavy
use. In any case, the 2 blade, 72", would be a better choice than the
3 blade, & cheaper !

The web site shows a cutaway of just the spinner you're looking
for ! It shows a different end plate on the motor, using those bolts
to hold it on. The end plate has a huge socket in it for a screw which
holds the spinner on. There is also a backing plate shown ! Maybe
IVO sells this assembly ???

.....bobp

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[Bob Patterson]

There have been at least 3 cases of UHS spinners cracking & coming
off in flight. Generally, with no ill effects. Still - warrants care in
installation, & checking often. There are hundreds of them flying ...

.....bobp

-----------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 12:25 AM 5/27/00 -0400, you wrote:

Tom

My friend Ron had his UHS spinner depart the aircraft in flight. Not trying
to be a wet blanket but be sure to check into this carefully. You should
talk to Ron Barber personally to get his detailed follow up but I don't
think it was positive but better check with him first to be sure.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Saunders [mailto:tgsaunders@iname.com]
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:11 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Props


Bob,

I fell for that mini spinner pic as well, but it's for the ultralight model
(even though it's shown in the Magnum pic). Ivo tell me that the motor end
plate in the pic is only available on the lighter motors.

UHS (? I think that's their name) in Markham are working with Ivo to get an
approved mount for their spinners (which cover the whole hub and are large
enough to be significant on the O320 -- close to flywheel diameter.). They
are going to call me when they've worked it out, like REAL SOON NOW (but I'm
not holding my breath).

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Props

Tom,
The Warp Drive props are solid carbon fiber, no core. They don't
have that nice gel-coat.

Took your advice & checked IVO's web site - it sounds like the
prop in question is an "ultralight" model - might not be up to heavy
use. In any case, the 2 blade, 72", would be a better choice than the
3 blade, & cheaper !

The web site shows a cutaway of just the spinner you're looking
for ! It shows a different end plate on the motor, using those bolts
to hold it on. The end plate has a huge socket in it for a screw which
holds the spinner on. There is also a backing plate shown ! Maybe
IVO sells this assembly ???

.....bobp

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

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*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Bob Patterson]

Sorry, Wayne !! I wasn't saying that folks <shouldn't> buy Warp Drive
props because they're black - only suggesting that it might be prudent
to make up a cover for the blades to keep them from baking in the sunshine.
We made up such a cover for our GSC prop, and it has GREATLY extended
the life of the clear varnish, and the prop.

There are MANY Rebels flying with W-D props, and the 3 blade
72", with 17" of nickel plating has become THE standard for 150 hp.
Rebels herabouts. There have been NO problems reported with these
W-D props by Rebel owners. (although W-D says there have been SOME (3)
problems with blade cracking on <160 HP> Lycomings...)

I agree that ill-founded rumours can cause GREAT damage - I recall
being told that Murphy had closed(!), because someone had just heard that
"a big kit manufacturer out west had gone bankrupt" - and they ASSUMED
it must be Murphy !!!

The purpose of this list is to exchange information, to prevent
that kind of rumour from getting started. It is ALSO to put out
"early warning" information that there MIGHT be a concern with some
product, to request that others 'check it out', and give THEIR feedback,
so that we can ALL make informed decisions.

The UHS spinner is a good case - thanks to you, everyone now
knows that FOLLOWING THE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS is VERY IMPORTANT !!
Sometimes, the small hints that have been passed on in this group
have helped avoid major problems later on....

THANKS !! To all who have contributed these positive & helpful
suggestions !!

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 02:01 PM 5/27/00 -0400, you wrote:

Brian, Is Ron one of the ones that DIDN'T follow the instructions that are
supplied with every UHS spinner to loctite the spinner screws and let them
"cure" overnight and the MANDATORY use of a squash plate on top of the
spinner bulkhead to transfer the loads?? IF NOT, he is just tarnishing the
reputation of a perfectly good spinner OR did he actually have a "bad"
spinner that failed after being installed properly?!?!?.

I have been running a 10" UHS on the front of mine for 5 years. 4 1/2 with a
100 hp and now 25 with the 150H.P. with no problems. As far as I know, I am
also the only CANADIAN "advertiser" that markets Joe's spinners for him! And
no that doesn't give me a biased opinion. I have used all sorts of different
ones (and still do, to suit the application). UHS's are the simplest to
install however and pretty much maintenance free.

So far this week we shouldn't buy W.D. props because they are black, IVO
props because they throw blades and now UHS spinners because they depart
ship. Maybe we shouldn't buy Rebels either because they fly weird with the
push pull tubes hooked up backwards! WE are killing some small helpfull
little companies out there, with these "accusations", half truths, or rare
occurances and when they close up shop you guys won't like the price of
paying for certified stuff. Examples: $1000+ for a spinner, $3000
(wholesale) for a fixed pitch prop (retail about $4200), $6000 to $9000 U.S
for a composite engine cowling etc. etc. or are we willing to present all
the facts before making vague statements about product suitability??!!?!?

Sorry Brian (& ALL), I'm just tired from flying Young Eagles all Morning and
didn't really mean to pi__ in your corn flakes! We just need to watch how we
present info about questionable products, to be sure we give enough
information to support the statements, before we have no where left to buy
reasonably priced parts for our amateur built aircraft!

Regards to All and Blues skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca


-----Original Message-----
From: rebelair <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 12:26 AM
Subject: RE: Props

Tom

My friend Ron had his UHS spinner depart the aircraft in flight. Not

trying

to be a wet blanket but be sure to check into this carefully. You should
talk to Ron Barber personally to get his detailed follow up but I don't
think it was positive but better check with him first to be sure.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Saunders [mailto:tgsaunders@iname.com]
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:11 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Props


Bob,

I fell for that mini spinner pic as well, but it's for the ultralight model
(even though it's shown in the Magnum pic). Ivo tell me that the motor end
plate in the pic is only available on the lighter motors.

UHS (? I think that's their name) in Markham are working with Ivo to get

an

approved mount for their spinners (which cover the whole hub and are large
enough to be significant on the O320 -- close to flywheel diameter.). They
are going to call me when they've worked it out, like REAL SOON NOW (but

I'm

not holding my breath).

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Props

Tom,
The Warp Drive props are solid carbon fiber, no core. They don't
have that nice gel-coat.

Took your advice & checked IVO's web site - it sounds like the
prop in question is an "ultralight" model - might not be up to heavy
use. In any case, the 2 blade, 72", would be a better choice than the
3 blade, & cheaper !

The web site shows a cutaway of just the spinner you're looking
for ! It shows a different end plate on the motor, using those bolts
to hold it on. The end plate has a huge socket in it for a screw which
holds the spinner on. There is also a backing plate shown ! Maybe
IVO sells this assembly ???

.....bobp

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

--------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

--------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
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Archives located at:
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*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your following message has been delivered to the 154 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 16:30:50 on 28 May 2000.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nothing to be sorry about Bob, it was just one of those RARE days where my
steam generator had popped the relief valve before I had even turned on the
computer!!! Young Eagles all morning, Son promised to cut runway before I
got home and guess who ended up doing it, etc. etc. In retrospect I wish I
hadn't even sent the mail, but I just had to nip the UHS failure "stuff" now
before the rumors start again. They have been a hard sell as it is, after
Rem Walker's repeated publishing's of a crash and death due to a UHS spinner
failure on take off of a new homebuilt. Unfortunately they never published
the MFG's side of the story to tell you the guy immediately flew the
aircraft after installation with no loctite on the screws, and did not use a
squash plate on top of the bulkhead. Like my Mom always said, "if you don't
follow the directions given, you will get what you get!" (usually a wooden
spoon!!!!) I also really doubt that the spinner departing caused the crash.
The pilot forgetting to fly the aircraft most likely did, as it usually
does!

BRIAN, I see what you mean that your mail said to check with Ron, but most
people will only remember that you typed that a UHS spinner departed the
aircraft and that you DIDN'T think that the owners detailed follow up would
be positive. Sorry if I ticked you off! This doesn't mean that you are going
to go back to just doing a fly by does it???? You will drop in next time you
are up this way!!!!

As for spinners, walk down a row of certified Spam Cans at the airport and
see how many aluminum spinners are NOT stop drilled, patched, cracking
around the screws, etc. You won't find many!! Spinners are a high cost, high
maintenance item on most Certified Aircraft because the MFG spent most of
their design money getting the paperwork right, instead of the product!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: Props

Sorry, Wayne !! I wasn't saying that folks <shouldn't> buy Warp Drive
props because they're black - only suggesting that it might be prudent
to make up a cover for the blades to keep them from baking in the sunshine.
We made up such a cover for our GSC prop, and it has GREATLY extended
the life of the clear varnish, and the prop.

There are MANY Rebels flying with W-D props, and the 3 blade
72", with 17" of nickel plating has become THE standard for 150 hp.
Rebels herabouts. There have been NO problems reported with these
W-D props by Rebel owners. (although W-D says there have been SOME (3)
problems with blade cracking on <160 HP> Lycomings...)

I agree that ill-founded rumours can cause GREAT damage - I recall
being told that Murphy had closed(!), because someone had just heard that
"a big kit manufacturer out west had gone bankrupt" - and they ASSUMED
it must be Murphy !!!

The purpose of this list is to exchange information, to prevent
that kind of rumour from getting started. It is ALSO to put out
"early warning" information that there MIGHT be a concern with some
product, to request that others 'check it out', and give THEIR feedback,
so that we can ALL make informed decisions.

The UHS spinner is a good case - thanks to you, everyone now
knows that FOLLOWING THE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS is VERY IMPORTANT !!
Sometimes, the small hints that have been passed on in this group
have helped avoid major problems later on....

THANKS !! To all who have contributed these positive & helpful
suggestions !!

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.----------------------------------------

-

At 02:01 PM 5/27/00 -0400, you wrote:

Brian, Is Ron one of the ones that DIDN'T follow the instructions that are
supplied with every UHS spinner to loctite the spinner screws and let them
"cure" overnight and the MANDATORY use of a squash plate on top of the
spinner bulkhead to transfer the loads?? IF NOT, he is just tarnishing the
reputation of a perfectly good spinner OR did he actually have a "bad"
spinner that failed after being installed properly?!?!?.

I have been running a 10" UHS on the front of mine for 5 years. 4 1/2 with

a

100 hp and now 25 with the 150H.P. with no problems. As far as I know, I

am

also the only CANADIAN "advertiser" that markets Joe's spinners for him!

And

no that doesn't give me a biased opinion. I have used all sorts of

different

ones (and still do, to suit the application). UHS's are the simplest to
install however and pretty much maintenance free.

So far this week we shouldn't buy W.D. props because they are black, IVO
props because they throw blades and now UHS spinners because they depart
ship. Maybe we shouldn't buy Rebels either because they fly weird with the
push pull tubes hooked up backwards! WE are killing some small helpfull
little companies out there, with these "accusations", half truths, or rare
occurances and when they close up shop you guys won't like the price of
paying for certified stuff. Examples: $1000+ for a spinner, $3000
(wholesale) for a fixed pitch prop (retail about $4200), $6000 to $9000

U.S

for a composite engine cowling etc. etc. or are we willing to present all
the facts before making vague statements about product suitability??!!?!?

Sorry Brian (& ALL), I'm just tired from flying Young Eagles all Morning

and

didn't really mean to pi__ in your corn flakes! We just need to watch how

we

present info about questionable products, to be sure we give enough
information to support the statements, before we have no where left to buy
reasonably priced parts for our amateur built aircraft!

Regards to All and Blues skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca


-----Original Message-----
From: rebelair <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 12:26 AM
Subject: RE: Props

Tom

My friend Ron had his UHS spinner depart the aircraft in flight. Not

trying

to be a wet blanket but be sure to check into this carefully. You should
talk to Ron Barber personally to get his detailed follow up but I don't
think it was positive but better check with him first to be sure.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Saunders [mailto:tgsaunders@iname.com]
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:11 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Props


Bob,

I fell for that mini spinner pic as well, but it's for the ultralight

model

(even though it's shown in the Magnum pic). Ivo tell me that the motor

end

plate in the pic is only available on the lighter motors.

UHS (? I think that's their name) in Markham are working with Ivo to get

an

approved mount for their spinners (which cover the whole hub and are

large

enough to be significant on the O320 -- close to flywheel diameter.).

They

are going to call me when they've worked it out, like REAL SOON NOW (but

I'm

not holding my breath).

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Props

don't

*------------------------------------------------------------------------

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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

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--------*

*------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

---------*

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-----------------------------------------------------------------

[rebelair]

Hi Wayne

Thanks for the clarification. I will try to word my comments more carefully
& I guess I caught you on a bad day as well. I will definitely being doing
some low & overs. I made careful note of your LAT & LONG & as soon as I can
get my GPS programmed I will drop down to a few feet off the deck to see how
well you cut the grass! I don't want any surprises when I set her down
assuming your are just going to start the BBQ. On the other hand, if you
are working & obviously need a hand, I will pretend that I don't see you &
keep on truckin'.

Wayne, I did forget to mention that I checked those rivets you mentioned
several weekends back. I mean the ones at the rudder post. Mine were fine.
I assume mine were OK because I did an extra tailwrap right from the most
rear ward point of the fuselage and forward about 18" give or take a few. I
also have the full bulkhead in this area for the tailwheel attach, and as
you will recall, the earlier kits only had those overlapping strips which
would not stiffen the whole assembly into a box type of structure &
therefore would allow more twisting or whatever that is causing those 3
rivets to shear. Does this make sense to you?

Thanks again for your comments & do look forward to dropping by!

Best Regards

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea [mailto:oifa@irishfield.on.ca]
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 4:25 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Props


Nothing to be sorry about Bob, it was just one of those RARE days where my
steam generator had popped the relief valve before I had even turned on the
computer!!! Young Eagles all morning, Son promised to cut runway before I
got home and guess who ended up doing it, etc. etc. In retrospect I wish I
hadn't even sent the mail, but I just had to nip the UHS failure "stuff" now
before the rumors start again. They have been a hard sell as it is, after
Rem Walker's repeated publishing's of a crash and death due to a UHS spinner
failure on take off of a new homebuilt. Unfortunately they never published
the MFG's side of the story to tell you the guy immediately flew the
aircraft after installation with no loctite on the screws, and did not use a
squash plate on top of the bulkhead. Like my Mom always said, "if you don't
follow the directions given, you will get what you get!" (usually a wooden
spoon!!!!) I also really doubt that the spinner departing caused the crash.
The pilot forgetting to fly the aircraft most likely did, as it usually
does!

BRIAN, I see what you mean that your mail said to check with Ron, but most
people will only remember that you typed that a UHS spinner departed the
aircraft and that you DIDN'T think that the owners detailed follow up would
be positive. Sorry if I ticked you off! This doesn't mean that you are going
to go back to just doing a fly by does it???? You will drop in next time you
are up this way!!!!

As for spinners, walk down a row of certified Spam Cans at the airport and
see how many aluminum spinners are NOT stop drilled, patched, cracking
around the screws, etc. You won't find many!! Spinners are a high cost, high
maintenance item on most Certified Aircraft because the MFG spent most of
their design money getting the paperwork right, instead of the product!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: Props

Sorry, Wayne !! I wasn't saying that folks <shouldn't> buy Warp Drive
props because they're black - only suggesting that it might be prudent
to make up a cover for the blades to keep them from baking in the sunshine.
We made up such a cover for our GSC prop, and it has GREATLY extended
the life of the clear varnish, and the prop.

There are MANY Rebels flying with W-D props, and the 3 blade
72", with 17" of nickel plating has become THE standard for 150 hp.
Rebels herabouts. There have been NO problems reported with these
W-D props by Rebel owners. (although W-D says there have been SOME (3)
problems with blade cracking on <160 HP> Lycomings...)

I agree that ill-founded rumours can cause GREAT damage - I recall
being told that Murphy had closed(!), because someone had just heard that
"a big kit manufacturer out west had gone bankrupt" - and they ASSUMED
it must be Murphy !!!

The purpose of this list is to exchange information, to prevent
that kind of rumour from getting started. It is ALSO to put out
"early warning" information that there MIGHT be a concern with some
product, to request that others 'check it out', and give THEIR feedback,
so that we can ALL make informed decisions.

The UHS spinner is a good case - thanks to you, everyone now
knows that FOLLOWING THE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS is VERY IMPORTANT !!
Sometimes, the small hints that have been passed on in this group
have helped avoid major problems later on....

THANKS !! To all who have contributed these positive & helpful
suggestions !!

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.----------------------------------------

-

At 02:01 PM 5/27/00 -0400, you wrote:

Brian, Is Ron one of the ones that DIDN'T follow the instructions that are
supplied with every UHS spinner to loctite the spinner screws and let them
"cure" overnight and the MANDATORY use of a squash plate on top of the
spinner bulkhead to transfer the loads?? IF NOT, he is just tarnishing the
reputation of a perfectly good spinner OR did he actually have a "bad"
spinner that failed after being installed properly?!?!?.

I have been running a 10" UHS on the front of mine for 5 years. 4 1/2 with

a

100 hp and now 25 with the 150H.P. with no problems. As far as I know, I

am

also the only CANADIAN "advertiser" that markets Joe's spinners for him!

And

no that doesn't give me a biased opinion. I have used all sorts of

different

ones (and still do, to suit the application). UHS's are the simplest to
install however and pretty much maintenance free.

So far this week we shouldn't buy W.D. props because they are black, IVO
props because they throw blades and now UHS spinners because they depart
ship. Maybe we shouldn't buy Rebels either because they fly weird with the
push pull tubes hooked up backwards! WE are killing some small helpfull
little companies out there, with these "accusations", half truths, or rare
occurances and when they close up shop you guys won't like the price of
paying for certified stuff. Examples: $1000+ for a spinner, $3000
(wholesale) for a fixed pitch prop (retail about $4200), $6000 to $9000

U.S

for a composite engine cowling etc. etc. or are we willing to present all
the facts before making vague statements about product suitability??!!?!?

Sorry Brian (& ALL), I'm just tired from flying Young Eagles all Morning

and

didn't really mean to pi__ in your corn flakes! We just need to watch how

we

present info about questionable products, to be sure we give enough
information to support the statements, before we have no where left to buy
reasonably priced parts for our amateur built aircraft!

Regards to All and Blues skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca


-----Original Message-----
From: rebelair <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 12:26 AM
Subject: RE: Props

Tom

My friend Ron had his UHS spinner depart the aircraft in flight. Not

trying

to be a wet blanket but be sure to check into this carefully. You should
talk to Ron Barber personally to get his detailed follow up but I don't
think it was positive but better check with him first to be sure.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Saunders [mailto:tgsaunders@iname.com]
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:11 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Props


Bob,

I fell for that mini spinner pic as well, but it's for the ultralight

model

(even though it's shown in the Magnum pic). Ivo tell me that the motor

end

plate in the pic is only available on the lighter motors.

UHS (? I think that's their name) in Markham are working with Ivo to get

an

approved mount for their spinners (which cover the whole hub and are

large

enough to be significant on the O320 -- close to flywheel diameter.).

They

are going to call me when they've worked it out, like REAL SOON NOW (but

I'm

not holding my breath).

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Props

don't

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

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Your following message has been delivered to the 154 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 23:40:48 on 28 May 2000.
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Brian, the "laminated" strip style spring attach bulkhead is actually as
strong or stronger than the newer one piece bulkhead. (think of plywood
versus a single layer of wood the same thickness). Both my aircraft and
Howard's have the .032 doubler from the tailpost past the spring attach
bulkhead.Howards has the newer spring attach bulkhead and mine has the older
strap style. Give it a 100 hours or so and you will probably find your
rivets sheared or the bulkhead hairline cracked. Next time you are doing an
annual inspection or similar, do yourself a favour and take the time to do
the Service Bulletin I got MAM to issue.

As for our landing "lawn", you could play billards on it!!!!!!! Well almost!

As for BBQ's. Our COPA Flight #73 / Midland RAA annual pool party and BBQ
will be August 12th this year (Saturday). All are welcome by RSVP for food
requirements. If you haven't been into our field before your MUST call
ahead. (If you are not flying a Rebel that is!!!! Some Spam Cans could never
leave!!!) Always a RIGHT hand circuit to 36 for first timers, no matter
which way the wind is blowing!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: rebelair <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 10:20 PM
Subject: RE: Props

Hi Wayne

Thanks for the clarification. I will try to word my comments more

carefully

& I guess I caught you on a bad day as well. I will definitely being doing
some low & overs. I made careful note of your LAT & LONG & as soon as I

can

get my GPS programmed I will drop down to a few feet off the deck to see

how

well you cut the grass! I don't want any surprises when I set her down
assuming your are just going to start the BBQ. On the other hand, if you
are working & obviously need a hand, I will pretend that I don't see you &
keep on truckin'.

Wayne, I did forget to mention that I checked those rivets you mentioned
several weekends back. I mean the ones at the rudder post. Mine were

fine.

I assume mine were OK because I did an extra tailwrap right from the most
rear ward point of the fuselage and forward about 18" give or take a few.

I

also have the full bulkhead in this area for the tailwheel attach, and as
you will recall, the earlier kits only had those overlapping strips which
would not stiffen the whole assembly into a box type of structure &
therefore would allow more twisting or whatever that is causing those 3
rivets to shear. Does this make sense to you?

Thanks again for your comments & do look forward to dropping by!

Best Regards

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea [mailto:oifa@irishfield.on.ca]
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 4:25 PM
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
Subject: Re: Props


Nothing to be sorry about Bob, it was just one of those RARE days where my
steam generator had popped the relief valve before I had even turned on the
computer!!! Young Eagles all morning, Son promised to cut runway before I
got home and guess who ended up doing it, etc. etc. In retrospect I wish I
hadn't even sent the mail, but I just had to nip the UHS failure "stuff"

now

before the rumors start again. They have been a hard sell as it is, after
Rem Walker's repeated publishing's of a crash and death due to a UHS

spinner

failure on take off of a new homebuilt. Unfortunately they never published
the MFG's side of the story to tell you the guy immediately flew the
aircraft after installation with no loctite on the screws, and did not use

a

squash plate on top of the bulkhead. Like my Mom always said, "if you don't
follow the directions given, you will get what you get!" (usually a wooden
spoon!!!!) I also really doubt that the spinner departing caused the crash.
The pilot forgetting to fly the aircraft most likely did, as it usually
does!

BRIAN, I see what you mean that your mail said to check with Ron, but most
people will only remember that you typed that a UHS spinner departed the
aircraft and that you DIDN'T think that the owners detailed follow up would
be positive. Sorry if I ticked you off! This doesn't mean that you are

going

to go back to just doing a fly by does it???? You will drop in next time

you

are up this way!!!!

As for spinners, walk down a row of certified Spam Cans at the airport and
see how many aluminum spinners are NOT stop drilled, patched, cracking
around the screws, etc. You won't find many!! Spinners are a high cost,

high

maintenance item on most Certified Aircraft because the MFG spent most of
their design money getting the paperwork right, instead of the product!

Blue skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: Props

Sorry, Wayne !! I wasn't saying that folks <shouldn't> buy Warp Drive
props because they're black - only suggesting that it might be prudent
to make up a cover for the blades to keep them from baking in the

sunshine.

We made up such a cover for our GSC prop, and it has GREATLY extended
the life of the clear varnish, and the prop.

There are MANY Rebels flying with W-D props, and the 3 blade
72", with 17" of nickel plating has become THE standard for 150 hp.
Rebels herabouts. There have been NO problems reported with these
W-D props by Rebel owners. (although W-D says there have been SOME (3)
problems with blade cracking on <160 HP> Lycomings...)

I agree that ill-founded rumours can cause GREAT damage - I recall
being told that Murphy had closed(!), because someone had just heard that
"a big kit manufacturer out west had gone bankrupt" - and they ASSUMED
it must be Murphy !!!

The purpose of this list is to exchange information, to prevent
that kind of rumour from getting started. It is ALSO to put out
"early warning" information that there MIGHT be a concern with some
product, to request that others 'check it out', and give THEIR feedback,
so that we can ALL make informed decisions.

The UHS spinner is a good case - thanks to you, everyone now
knows that FOLLOWING THE INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS is VERY IMPORTANT !!
Sometimes, the small hints that have been passed on in this group
have helped avoid major problems later on....

THANKS !! To all who have contributed these positive & helpful
suggestions !!

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------

-

-

At 02:01 PM 5/27/00 -0400, you wrote:

Brian, Is Ron one of the ones that DIDN'T follow the instructions that

are

supplied with every UHS spinner to loctite the spinner screws and let

them

"cure" overnight and the MANDATORY use of a squash plate on top of the
spinner bulkhead to transfer the loads?? IF NOT, he is just tarnishing

the

reputation of a perfectly good spinner OR did he actually have a "bad"
spinner that failed after being installed properly?!?!?.

I have been running a 10" UHS on the front of mine for 5 years. 4 1/2

with

a

100 hp and now 25 with the 150H.P. with no problems. As far as I know, I

am

also the only CANADIAN "advertiser" that markets Joe's spinners for him!

And

no that doesn't give me a biased opinion. I have used all sorts of

different

ones (and still do, to suit the application). UHS's are the simplest to
install however and pretty much maintenance free.

So far this week we shouldn't buy W.D. props because they are black, IVO
props because they throw blades and now UHS spinners because they depart
ship. Maybe we shouldn't buy Rebels either because they fly weird with

the

push pull tubes hooked up backwards! WE are killing some small helpfull
little companies out there, with these "accusations", half truths, or

rare

occurances and when they close up shop you guys won't like the price of
paying for certified stuff. Examples: $1000+ for a spinner, $3000
(wholesale) for a fixed pitch prop (retail about $4200), $6000 to $9000

U.S

for a composite engine cowling etc. etc. or are we willing to present all
the facts before making vague statements about product suitability??!!?!?

Sorry Brian (& ALL), I'm just tired from flying Young Eagles all Morning

and

didn't really mean to pi__ in your corn flakes! We just need to watch how

we

present info about questionable products, to be sure we give enough
information to support the statements, before we have no where left to

buy

reasonably priced parts for our amateur built aircraft!

Regards to All and Blues skies,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca


-----Original Message-----
From: rebelair <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000 12:26 AM
Subject: RE: Props

trying

should

model

end

get

an

large

They

I'm

don't

looking

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[PMi4218393]

Subaru guys, or gals:
I have an opportunity to have a custom prop made by a very reputable
individual in Argentina. Anyone out there with a 2.2 liter Subaru powered
Rebel swinging a wood prop that can offer a pitch and diameter that seems to
work?
Paul Michel
Rebel #374
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[Bob Patterson]

Depending on the re-drive, but generally, the same sizes that you
would use on a comparable Lycosaurus. If you have a straight Legacy,
of about 130 hp ... say about 72" x 48 - 54" (2 blade) ???

There is an old saying that every homebuilder has 3 props -
his first guess, his second guess, and the one he is flying now :-) !!
There is a fair bit of truth in this !!

I suspect that is why the Warp Drive 3 blade 72" with 17" of
nickel plating on the leading edge is such a popular choice for Lyco's
AND Subarus - you get to change the pitch as you sort out the engine !!
(Warp Drive will try to sell you a 4 blade for higher horsepowers -
- don't do it !!)

Personally, I have not had good experiences with carved wood
props - the GSC variable pitch blades are good, but they are made
on CNC machines.... Even they have problems with the varnish -
the sun deteriorates it, the cracks let in water --- and there goes
your prop ! Usually about 3 years, although cloth covers for parking
can really help extend the life ....

Sounds like you're getting close to flying, Paul .... that's
GREAT !!! Looking forward to seeing your Rebel !!!!!

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 05:25 PM 6/25/00 EDT, you wrote:

Subaru guys, or gals:
I have an opportunity to have a custom prop made by a very reputable
individual in Argentina. Anyone out there with a 2.2 liter Subaru powered
Rebel swinging a wood prop that can offer a pitch and diameter that seems to
work?
Paul Michel
Rebel #374
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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Rick !

That is VERY interesting!! Warp Drive have been promoting the
tapered tip for higher speed flying (and, perhaps, because it's more
expensive ;-) ). The consensus here in the Great White North is that
the SQUARE tip works best for FLOATS - sounds like maybe it is best
all around ....

THE standard prop here is the 72" square tip 3 blade, with
17" of nickel plating on the leading edge. Several builders have obtained
slightly better climb performance by switching to the Sensenich
metal prop (works better than W-D or McCauley metal .... so they say).
(<slightly> seems to mean as much as 150 fpm increase)

It would be interesting to know what W-D's recommendations
are NOW ...

.....bobp

------------------------------------orig.----------------------------
At 07:33 PM 1/6/01 -0500, you wrote:

Bruce,
The prop that I have is 72" dia square tip. The square tip was

recommended to me by

Warp-Drive. I told them that the A/C would be operated mostly on

land/wheels. In previous

archives (April 28,1999) Brian #328R, states that Warp Drive (WD)

recommends the tapered

tip for land use. Because I had read that post I was very specific when I

called WD and

they insisted that the square tip was the one I needed for land use. It

would be

interesting to here what they tell you when you call. Keep us posted on

that. I am also

using the UHS fiberglass 12" spinner. It is a well made piece but it does

not look very

good, it is a little too blunt for this cowl. It is a little small for the

speed cowl but

the 14" UHS was not recommended by WD. The more I hear about issues with

the Warp Drive

set up the more I would be inclined to stick with a metal prop. Others have

also given

in-flight comparisons of WD vs. metal and they prefer the metal. I have

also purchased an

LSE Plasma II electronic ignition. This may help the prop work better due

to smoother

running.? After waffling back and forth between LSE and Electro-Air, I

picked the LSE.

Earlier, I thought the electro-air would be better for me because it

allowed engine side

firewall mounting but other concerns tilted me to LSE. Whatever, the

choice is yours.

Hey Wayne O., that is some good info on the stab incidence. Please keep

reading all

of our silly questions and concerns because at each discussion more

detailed information

comes out of you experienced builders and flyers. And thanks for the

tailwheel spring and

bolt info.
While I'm at it, Mike Davis, thanks for your continued interest in the

rebel and in

keeping this site alive.
All others, I enjoy reading your input to this forum, thank you for

contributing.

Rick D.




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[Legeorgen]

I'll be talking to WD about ordering a prop soon and will inform the list on
what I am told.

Bruce G 357R












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[apat]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
Subject: props


Hi Bruce !

Wood props have never been as efficient as metal props -
not sure of all the reasons, but I think they are thicker, and
must have different shapes to keep the strength up near the
edges. You could count on 5 - 10% less thrust ...

Wood props are definitely high maintenance - we've had
at least 3 sets of blades on ours over the last 9 years ...
The varnish checks, from sunlight, and lets moisture into the
wood - then you throw them away. They can go out of balance if
left in the rain with one blade lower - all the water runs to
one end, and that end soaks it up. They also need frequent
rechecking of torque, as the wood expands & shrinks ...

Given a choice, I'd go with the METAL Sensenich first,
but, even with the dampener, the W-D will be lighter & less
expensive, AND give you the option of adjusting the pitch.
Another advantage of the W-D is that, if you hit something
(like a post), the blades will break and save the crankshaft !
Metal props can be expensive for engine repairs ...

I wouldn't worry TOO much about the weight - my firewall
is not moved, and I have the 2" extension and the metal Sensenich.
This gives a C of G at 8.1" - about the limit, but no handling
problems ! (You DO have to be careful with the brakes ! ;-) )
Of course, we often fly around with LOTS of camping gear in the
back - the beauty of this arrangement is that you will run out
of gross weight before you get outside the aft CG limit !

Most people use the 72" blades - they are more efficient
than the 70". Higher aspect ratios always work better ....
It gets more thrust away from the fuselage. Also, the square
tips seem to work better for floats, while the tapered tips
yield a slightly higher cruise.

.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.---------------------------------


At 07:14 PM 3/2/01 EST, you wrote:

In a message dated 3/1/01 9:21:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, Legeorgen@cs.com
writes:

Bob,

If the use of a WD prop necessitates the addition of a 10 lb. dampener

(not

to mention the $400.00 (US?)), maybe a wood Sensenich prop starts to sound
like a better and lighter choice.

Bruce G

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[Legeorgen]

Bob,
About the wood props... very well said. I think I'm convinced. I'll take my
chances with the WD. What an asset this forum is thanks to guys like you!!!
Bruce G



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[Rick DeCiero]

Wayne O,
I uncovered an old post of yours dated 12/14/99. It got very specific
about the performance of the Sensenich 74" x 56 prop and pretty much
confirmed my suspicion that the 58" would probably be too much for the
150 HP. I spoke at lenght with the guys at Sensenich and I have come to
the conclusion that the 56 is the one for me. I also spoke with Brian
Gooden at MAC and he has flown a 960 lb rebel with the 56 pitch and
thought that he might repitch it to 58" but eventually left it at 56 and
was very happy with it.
Rick D.




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[Walter Klatt]

Also, Dale, can you tell us the diameter and pitch of
both props used in the test?

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 8:50 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Props



Thanks Dale !! Sounds like you've
got a winner !!!

Does the prop require re-torquing
regularly, like all
wood props, or does the carbon fiber coating
avoid that ??


.....bobp

----------------------------orig.------------
-------------------
At 10:39 AM 6/21/03 -0500, you wrote:

Murphy pilots,

Here are the test results using a new

overhauled Sensenich and a Prince

wood/carbon fiber prop(bought from Colleen

at Murphy}.

The Sensenich with spacer and hardware

38lbs, Prince 13lbs with the same

spacer and hardware.
Static thrust, Sensenich 450/2400rpm,

Prince 505/2300rpm.

The Prince prop averaged 70fpm rate of

climb better than the Sensenich.

Full power, they both indicated 115mph/2600rpm.

My plane has a 160hp Lycoming on amphibious floats.

Dale N295RT



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[Dale Kopff]

Murphy pilots,

Here are the test results using a new overhauled Sensenich and a Prince
wood/carbon fiber prop(bought from Colleen at Murphy}.

The Sensenich with spacer and hardware 38lbs, Prince 13lbs with the same
spacer and hardware.
Static thrust, Sensenich 450/2400rpm, Prince 505/2300rpm.
The Prince prop averaged 70fpm rate of climb better than the Sensenich.
Full power, they both indicated 115mph/2600rpm.

My plane has a 160hp Lycoming on amphibious floats.

Dale N295RT



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