New Rebel builder (Almost)

Flyin B Ranch · Post by **Flyin B Ranch** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:48 pm

Hello,
First I would like to thank Mike for hosting this list. A very valuble resorce.
I am hoping to save enough pennies to order a Rebel kit this summer and hope to get some advice from the guys that been there and done that..:-).
After looking through the list archives there seems to be a few mods as with most homebuilts. Anyone know what mods the new kits come with if any?
I will probably use an 0-320. I read something about firewall mods (.032 corner wraps). Also seems best to leave firewall in stock posistion and carry more
beer in baggage area..hehe. Also something on a tail mod(wrap).
I will be flying off a dirt strip and mostly rough filds. Would spring gear be best? Tire size recomendations?
Stock flaperons or Split?........Stock seems to be the choice
Standard cowl?.....................Standard without a doubt..(bobp) :-)
Float attach fittings sound like a good mod.
Also I would like opinins on (Dont beat me up to bad now) using AN rivits instead of pop type. The reason is just for looks and the fact that i have all the tools for
bucking them. I have built 6 RVs and working on a Harmon Rocket now (for someone else). Would it save $ as AN rivits are real cheep? Could ya use 3/32" instead
of 1/8"? Has anyone built one with an rivits?
Anyway enough for now before i get thrown off the list..hehe. I have used lots of proseal and screwed up lots of aluminum so I may be able to contribute a bit to the list also :-).

Thanks,
Bruce

LisaFly99 · Post by **LisaFly99** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:48 pm

In a message dated 4/11/01 10:22:34 AM Central Daylight Time,
flyinb@kfalls.net writes:

I am hoping to save enough pennies to order a Rebel kit this summer and hope
to get some advice from the guys that been there and done that..:-).

Welcome aboard BRUCE
Wayne O. has been instrumental in most of the beef up mods. He's put together
or fixed more REB's than anybody and fly's them hard so if theirs a weak link
he figures out a fix. Bob P. and I'm pretty sure Wayne both swear by the
bungie gear.
I couldn't comment I've only flown with the spring gear and have no
complaints.
It will be pretty slow on the list till people get back from Sun N Fun. By
the way good choice in airplanes it's not the fastest one out there but it's
one of the most fun to fly. It's kind of a Jeep with wings.
Phil&Lisa Smith #460 N414D

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klehman · Post by **klehman** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:48 pm

Hi Bruce

I think you will find that the bungee type gear is the favoured choice
for rough fields with some guys using compression coil springs instead
of the bungee cord. There is lots of discussion on your questions in the
archives.

It would surprise me if MAM gave you the OK to use 3/32 AN rivets. The
holes are pre-punched at 3/32 so fit and alignment would be an issue.
Also the smaller rivet would tear out of thin aluminum easier. The Avex
rivets are very quick, easy, quiet, and make the airframe a one man job
for the most part. Tyically the pneumatic puller can be had for about
$50. Some guys have used flush rivets in the leading edge for appearance
and one or two knots more speed. Every change takes longer than you
think though and may be a caution flag if you ever sell the plane.

Sounds like you have a good handle on what you want. Only other
suggestion is to consider not purchasing the wing and tail tips from MAM
and getting those from Dave Fife instead. Better fit, better
performance, and it will save you time. Again lots of discussion in the
archives.

Ken

Flyin B Ranch wrote:

Hello,
First I would like to thank Mike for hosting this list. A very valuble
resorce.
I am hoping to save enough pennies to order a Rebel kit this summer
and hope to get some advice from the guys that been there and done
that..:-).
After looking through the list archives there seems to be a few mods
as with most homebuilts. Anyone know what mods the new kits come with
if any?
I will probably use an 0-320. I read something about firewall mods
(.032 corner wraps). Also seems best to leave firewall in stock
posistion and carry more
beer in baggage area..hehe. Also something on a tail mod(wrap).
I will be flying off a dirt strip and mostly rough filds. Would
spring gear be best? Tire size recomendations?
Stock flaperons or Split?........Stock seems to be the choice
Standard cowl?.....................Standard without a doubt..(bobp)
:-)
Float attach fittings sound like a good mod.
Also I would like opinins on (Dont beat me up to bad now) using AN
rivits instead of pop type. The reason is just for looks and the fact
that i have all the tools for
bucking them. I have built 6 RVs and working on a Harmon Rocket now
(for someone else). Would it save $ as AN rivits are real cheep? Could
ya use 3/32" instead
of 1/8"? Has anyone built one with an rivits?
Anyway enough for now before i get thrown off the list..hehe. I have
used lots of proseal and screwed up lots of aluminum so I may be able
to contribute a bit to the list also :-).

Thanks,
Bruce

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Flyin B Ranch · Post by **Flyin B Ranch** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:55 pm

Is there an advantage using coil springs vs bungees? Are the springs an option from MAM?
I think I remember reading somthing about a weakness in the gear leg struts (Bungee type) or somthing like that?
If so are there mods for it also? I did check out Dave's wing tips, Looks like the way to go also.
If 3/32" rivits where used there would have to be lots more of them for sure. It may not be possable with the way the Rebel is designed, I dont know. Also lots more work. No prob after both laying out and drilling thousands of them in the RV's.

Thanks,
Bruce

Hi Bruce

I think you will find that the bungee type gear is the favoured choice
for rough fields with some guys using compression coil springs instead
of the bungee cord. There is lots of discussion on your questions in the
archives.

It would surprise me if MAM gave you the OK to use 3/32 AN rivets. The
holes are pre-punched at 3/32 so fit and alignment would be an issue.
Also the smaller rivet would tear out of thin aluminum easier. The Avex
rivets are very quick, easy, quiet, and make the airframe a one man job
for the most part. Tyically the pneumatic puller can be had for about
$50. Some guys have used flush rivets in the leading edge for appearance
and one or two knots more speed. Every change takes longer than you
think though and may be a caution flag if you ever sell the plane.

Sounds like you have a good handle on what you want. Only other
suggestion is to consider not purchasing the wing and tail tips from MAM
and getting those from Dave Fife instead. Better fit, better
performance, and it will save you time. Again lots of discussion in the
archives.

Ken

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klehman · Post by **klehman** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:55 pm

Bruce

I am not the person to answer this but I can pass on my second hand
impressions. There is nothing wrong with the Bungee gear and that is
what I am using. Steel legs may be stronger but unless you ground loop
or something I don't think it matters. Some of the guys who have ground
looped do recommend changing to steel legs. Coil springs will give you a
smoother taxi but then you may want Gordon Mohr's bushing kit since the
gear is moving so much. Coil spring gear is available from Wayne O'Shea
or you must make your own or find another source as MAM does not sell
them. If you drop a hot exhaust system on the bungees they may melt but
the safety cable should allow a landing. Using about 6 homemade or
purchased bungee rings per side seems to be a good idea compared to one
long loop as MAM recommends. Bungees absorb some energy rather than just
storing all of it, so theoretically you should be better off in a
bounce. If you are planning floats you may wish to leave an access panel
in the floor or bottom skin so that the bungee mounting tubes can be
removed in either case.

The MAM spring gear is heavier and may not be the best choice if you
know you will be operating on very rough surfaces. The long lever arm
seems to flex the lower cage a bit such as during heavy braking. It is
only available on the Elite.

Hope I haven't annoyed anybody, if so please add your comments as this
is merely my opinion from listening to you guys.

Ken

Flyin B Ranch wrote:

Is there an advantage using coil springs vs bungees? Are the springs an option from MAM?
I think I remember reading somthing about a weakness in the gear leg struts (Bungee type) or somthing like that?
If so are there mods for it also? I did check out Dave's wing tips, Looks like the way to go also.
If 3/32" rivits where used there would have to be lots more of them for sure. It may not be possable with the way the Rebel is designed, I dont know. Also lots more work. No prob after both laying out and drilling thousands of them in the RV's.

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Flyin B Ranch · Post by **Flyin B Ranch** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:55 pm

Thanks ken, The bungee system sounds better all the time. I wont be using floats but I belive i read that putting on the float attach fittings would be a good idea anyway.

Bruce

Bruce

I am not the person to answer this but I can pass on my second hand
impressions. There is nothing wrong with the Bungee gear and that is
what I am using. Steel legs may be stronger but unless you ground loop
or something I don't think it matters. Some of the guys who have ground
looped do recommend changing to steel legs. Coil springs will give you a
smoother taxi but then you may want Gordon Mohr's bushing kit since the
gear is moving so much. Coil spring gear is available from Wayne O'Shea
or you must make your own or find another source as MAM does not sell
them. If you drop a hot exhaust system on the bungees they may melt but
the safety cable should allow a landing. Using about 6 homemade or
purchased bungee rings per side seems to be a good idea compared to one
long loop as MAM recommends. Bungees absorb some energy rather than just
storing all of it, so theoretically you should be better off in a
bounce. If you are planning floats you may wish to leave an access panel
in the floor or bottom skin so that the bungee mounting tubes can be
removed in either case.

The MAM spring gear is heavier and may not be the best choice if you
know you will be operating on very rough surfaces. The long lever arm
seems to flex the lower cage a bit such as during heavy braking. It is
only available on the Elite.

Hope I haven't annoyed anybody, if so please add your comments as this
is merely my opinion from listening to you guys.

Ken

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Rebflyer · Post by **Rebflyer** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:55 pm

Hi Bruce,
Welcome to the list. Thoughts on the bungee vs the coil spring can be found in great detail in the archives, but basically it boils down to this. First though, I have the coil spring assembly and never flew with the bungees. You never have to replace the
coil spring. You do need to use G. Mhor's bushings for the attach points on the gear legs. The springs work more than the bungees do. I believe that Wayne O. has the spring setup available. Stick to the Avex rivets IMHO.
It's fun to watch the RV builders that are now building Rebels, and Rebel builders that are now building (or contimplating) a fast aircraft. Good luck, keep at it as the end result is worth it. Curt Martin N97MR

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:55 pm

Yes Bruce, install the float points now as their nearly impossible to do
cleanly as an after thought. Installation will also increase the value of
your Rebel, if you ever decide to sell it down the road. The extra bulkhead
and "box beam" it creates, once installed, also strengthens the aircraft
considerably in this location.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Flyin B Ranch" <flyinb@kfalls.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: New Rebel builder (Almost)

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Thanks ken, The bungee system sounds better all the time. I wont be using

floats but I belive i read that putting on the float attach fittings would
be a good idea anyway.

Bruce

Bruce

I am not the person to answer this but I can pass on my second hand
impressions. There is nothing wrong with the Bungee gear and that is
what I am using. Steel legs may be stronger but unless you ground loop
or something I don't think it matters. Some of the guys who have ground
looped do recommend changing to steel legs. Coil springs will give you a
smoother taxi but then you may want Gordon Mohr's bushing kit since the
gear is moving so much. Coil spring gear is available from Wayne O'Shea
or you must make your own or find another source as MAM does not sell
them. If you drop a hot exhaust system on the bungees they may melt but
the safety cable should allow a landing. Using about 6 homemade or
purchased bungee rings per side seems to be a good idea compared to one
long loop as MAM recommends. Bungees absorb some energy rather than just
storing all of it, so theoretically you should be better off in a
bounce. If you are planning floats you may wish to leave an access panel
in the floor or bottom skin so that the bungee mounting tubes can be
removed in either case.

The MAM spring gear is heavier and may not be the best choice if you
know you will be operating on very rough surfaces. The long lever arm
seems to flex the lower cage a bit such as during heavy braking. It is
only available on the Elite.

Hope I haven't annoyed anybody, if so please add your comments as this
is merely my opinion from listening to you guys.

Ken

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Flyin B Ranch · Post by **Flyin B Ranch** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:55 pm

Thanks Curt for your Thoughts,
Yea it is interesting about builders, I think a guy needs 2 planes, A bush type plane and a fast one..Hehehe
The RV's have always been the best value, Resale ect. IMHO. I built an Avid Flyer between my first rv-4 and last rv-6 and had a blast with it.
I always liked the Rebel for years but havent flown in one yet. Lost my lease at the local airport (Progress ya know) so will be flying off the ranch now so the Rebel will be great.

Bruce

Hi Bruce,
Welcome to the list. Thoughts on the bungee vs the coil spring can be found in great detail in the archives, but basically it boils down to this. First though, I have the coil spring assembly and never flew with the bungees. You never have to replace the

coil spring. You do need to use G. Mhor's bushings for the attach points on the gear legs. The springs work more than the bungees do. I believe that Wayne O. has the spring setup available. Stick to the Avex rivets IMHO.
It's fun to watch the RV builders that are now building Rebels, and Rebel builders that are now building (or contimplating) a fast aircraft. Good luck, keep at it as the end result is worth it. Curt Martin N97MR

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rebelair · Post by **rebelair** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:55 pm

HI Ken

The spring gear is available on the Rebel as well as the Elite. I agree
with you that the bungee gear is the best choice for rough field work. I
also would not install the spring gear per MAM's plans - too many
discrepancies.

The spring gear is great for the top end i.e. higher cruise which I was
interested in as well as it makes for smooth taxiing.

Regards

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
klehman@albedo.net
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 6:58 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: New Rebel builder (Almost)

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Bruce

I am not the person to answer this but I can pass on my second hand
impressions. There is nothing wrong with the Bungee gear and that is
what I am using. Steel legs may be stronger but unless you ground loop
or something I don't think it matters. Some of the guys who have ground
looped do recommend changing to steel legs. Coil springs will give you a
smoother taxi but then you may want Gordon Mohr's bushing kit since the
gear is moving so much. Coil spring gear is available from Wayne O'Shea
or you must make your own or find another source as MAM does not sell
them. If you drop a hot exhaust system on the bungees they may melt but
the safety cable should allow a landing. Using about 6 homemade or
purchased bungee rings per side seems to be a good idea compared to one
long loop as MAM recommends. Bungees absorb some energy rather than just
storing all of it, so theoretically you should be better off in a
bounce. If you are planning floats you may wish to leave an access panel
in the floor or bottom skin so that the bungee mounting tubes can be
removed in either case.

The MAM spring gear is heavier and may not be the best choice if you
know you will be operating on very rough surfaces. The long lever arm
seems to flex the lower cage a bit such as during heavy braking. It is
only available on the Elite.

Hope I haven't annoyed anybody, if so please add your comments as this
is merely my opinion from listening to you guys.

Ken

Flyin B Ranch wrote:

Is there an advantage using coil springs vs bungees? Are the springs an

option from MAM?

I think I remember reading somthing about a weakness in the gear leg

struts (Bungee type) or somthing like that?

If so are there mods for it also? I did check out Dave's wing tips, Looks

like the way to go also.

If 3/32" rivits where used there would have to be lots more of them for

sure. It may not be possable with the way the Rebel is designed, I dont
know. Also lots more work. No prob after both laying out and drilling
thousands of them in the RV's.

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rebelair · Post by **rebelair** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:55 pm

Hi Curt

Sounds like the RV & Rebel builders should just exchange aircraft every
couple of years instead of starting from scratch.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Rebflyer@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 11:20 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: New Rebel builder (Almost)

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Hi Bruce,
Welcome to the list. Thoughts on the bungee vs the coil spring can be
found in great detail in the archives, but basically it boils down to this.
First though, I have the coil spring assembly and never flew with the
bungees. You never have to replace the

coil spring. You do need to use G. Mhor's bushings for the attach points on
the gear legs. The springs work more than the bungees do. I believe that
Wayne O. has the spring setup available. Stick to the Avex rivets IMHO.
It's fun to watch the RV builders that are now building Rebels, and Rebel
builders that are now building (or contimplating) a fast aircraft. Good
luck, keep at it as the end result is worth it. Curt Martin N97MR
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Rebflyer · Post by **Rebflyer** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:55 pm

Wow Brian,
Is that a great Idea! Maybe we could establish a pool where everyone
exchanges hour for hour. (In a fantasy wourld that sounds great!)
My problem is Dave is working on me real hard to build a plastic plane with
him. It's most likely to be a Cozy MKIV. With his glass abilities it would
be nice. I just hate to sand! They say that they are getting over 220 mph on
200hp. It still can't land on a pond though. :)
I'm rigging the floats to 97MR now. The biggest hurdle is the orderly
setup of the stuff on the inside. I should be wet by june. Curt N97MR

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bob.patterson · Post by **bob.patterson** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:55 pm

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: New Rebel builder (Almost)

Hi Bruce !

Welcome to the list !

Sorry, but you CAN NOT use 3/32" rivets on the Rebel. The skins
are pre-punched to 3/32, and these holes MUST be drilled out. The 1/8"
rivets give the required surface area to prevent skin tearing, but
the more important reason is:

Punching the holes compesses the metal around the edge of the
hole. If this compressed metal is not removed by drilling out to 1/8",
the compression will start "star" cracks from the hole as soon as you
load it, and your wing will slowly crumble ! (not "A Good Thing"(tm) !!)

Dave Fife's wing tips definitely improve looks and performance,
and reduce build time ! If you REALLY want to go all the way, you
might consider adding Angus McKenzie's STOL kit, with a leading edge
cuff and wing fences - several flying here with dazzling performance.
(39 mph approaches into 900 ft. long "lakes", on amphibs !!)

Sounds like you're on the right track !! Call me when
you're ready to order that Rebel ! ;-)
(905) 457-5238

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.----------------------------------
At 08:45 AM 4/13/01 -0700, you wrote:

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Is there an advantage using coil springs vs bungees? Are the springs an

option from MAM?

I think I remember reading somthing about a weakness in the gear leg struts

(Bungee type) or somthing like that?

If so are there mods for it also? I did check out Dave's wing tips, Looks

like the way to go also.

If 3/32" rivits where used there would have to be lots more of them for

sure. It may not be possable with the way the Rebel is designed, I dont
know. Also lots more work. No prob after both laying out and drilling
thousands of them in the RV's.

Thanks,
Bruce

Hi Bruce

I think you will find that the bungee type gear is the favoured choice
for rough fields with some guys using compression coil springs instead
of the bungee cord. There is lots of discussion on your questions in the
archives.

It would surprise me if MAM gave you the OK to use 3/32 AN rivets. The
holes are pre-punched at 3/32 so fit and alignment would be an issue.
Also the smaller rivet would tear out of thin aluminum easier. The Avex
rivets are very quick, easy, quiet, and make the airframe a one man job
for the most part. Tyically the pneumatic puller can be had for about
$50. Some guys have used flush rivets in the leading edge for appearance
and one or two knots more speed. Every change takes longer than you
think though and may be a caution flag if you ever sell the plane.

Sounds like you have a good handle on what you want. Only other
suggestion is to consider not purchasing the wing and tail tips from MAM
and getting those from Dave Fife instead. Better fit, better
performance, and it will save you time. Again lots of discussion in the
archives.

Ken
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Flyin B Ranch · Post by **Flyin B Ranch** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:55 pm

Thanks Bob,
What about 1/8" flush an rivits? The STOL kit sounds interesting, How much does it add to the cost of the plane? Does it affect the top end speed? I hope to order a kit by end of summer or sooner if things work out.

Bruce

Hi Bruce !

Welcome to the list !

Sorry, but you CAN NOT use 3/32" rivets on the Rebel. The skins
are pre-punched to 3/32, and these holes MUST be drilled out. The 1/8"
rivets give the required surface area to prevent skin tearing, but
the more important reason is:

Punching the holes compesses the metal around the edge of the
hole. If this compressed metal is not removed by drilling out to 1/8",
the compression will start "star" cracks from the hole as soon as you
load it, and your wing will slowly crumble ! (not "A Good Thing"(tm) !!)

Dave Fife's wing tips definitely improve looks and performance,
and reduce build time ! If you REALLY want to go all the way, you
might consider adding Angus McKenzie's STOL kit, with a leading edge
cuff and wing fences - several flying here with dazzling performance.
(39 mph approaches into 900 ft. long "lakes", on amphibs !!)

Sounds like you're on the right track !! Call me when
you're ready to order that Rebel ! ;-)
(905) 457-5238

.....bobp

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bob.patterson · Post by **bob.patterson** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:55 pm

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: New Rebel builder (Almost)

Hi Bruce !

Flush rivets would be an ENORMOUS amount of work, but would
add a smidgen of strength. I suspect they would actually REDUCE
performance, though. For years, I've maintained that the Rebel's
rivets were 'built-in vortex generators' - tongue-in-cheek, but it
seems, from recent experiences with flush rivetted leading edges,
and some commercial vortex generators, that they really are !!
(Both the flush edges & commercial VG's <reduced> cruise speed !)

I believe the McKenzie STOL kit goes for about $2,500 - please
jump in here, Angus ....

FWIW, I would really recommend that you just build the Rebel
with the Avex rivets - it'll go together faster & easier, and likely
have better resale value .... You WILL love it !!!

.....bobp

-------------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 07:05 AM 4/22/01 -0700, you wrote:

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Thanks Bob,
What about 1/8" flush an rivits? The STOL kit sounds interesting, How much

does it add to the cost of the plane? Does it affect the top end speed? I
hope to order a kit by end of summer or sooner if things work out.

Bruce

Hi Bruce !

Welcome to the list !

Sorry, but you CAN NOT use 3/32" rivets on the Rebel. The skins
are pre-punched to 3/32, and these holes MUST be drilled out. The 1/8"
rivets give the required surface area to prevent skin tearing, but
the more important reason is:

Punching the holes compesses the metal around the edge of the
hole. If this compressed metal is not removed by drilling out to 1/8",
the compression will start "star" cracks from the hole as soon as you
load it, and your wing will slowly crumble ! (not "A Good Thing"(tm) !!)

Dave Fife's wing tips definitely improve looks and performance,
and reduce build time ! If you REALLY want to go all the way, you
might consider adding Angus McKenzie's STOL kit, with a leading edge
cuff and wing fences - several flying here with dazzling performance.
(39 mph approaches into 900 ft. long "lakes", on amphibs !!)

Sounds like you're on the right track !! Call me when
you're ready to order that Rebel ! ;-)
(905) 457-5238

.....bobp
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