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Re; Engine choices

Converted from Wildcat! database. (read only)
klehman

Re; Engine choices

Post by klehman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

That's because there is no answer of course. I personally believe my
Subaru will be much more reliable than a Lycoming will ever be. Many
auto engines are well suited to the task but most failures are system
failures such as the psru or ignition or a poorly thought out
customization of something. The firewall forward packages have also had
their problems. If you are not prepared to learn a lot and spend the
effort, then a Lycosaur is probably more reliable simply because there
are more of them around and their problems are better known (but
expensive). Any one-off installation will have its risks, so you must do
your homework regardless of engine choice if you want to minimise nasty
surprises.
Ken

AGT wrote:
I started this discussion to answer one simple question. Will the Suburu
engine, or the Northwest-Aero LS-1 engine for that matter, be as reliable as
a Lycoming. Simple question, right? Won't someone just say yes, or no?
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David Ricker

Re; Engine choices

Post by David Ricker » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

Uh-oh! Brought back down to earth again!

Sorry but sometimes I forget not every one has had the pleasure of trying to keep awake
while some professor rambles on about all these Newtons law things & stuff like that. It
does make it fun when you can apply it to real things like airplanes though.

OK, the first part, F=MA talks about how much force (F) it takes to slow down something
that is moving (M, mass) and how quickly you change the speed from fast to slow (A,
acceleration, which can be positive or negative). Think about stopping a your car with
light or heavy loads and good or bad brakes. The formula will let you make predictions.
What do you learn from it for an airplane? The lighter weight piston doesn't put as much
load on the rod at a given piston speed.

Now, the second part (of the first part {now that sounds legalese doesn't it!}), lets
compare that to the car again. If you test the distance it takes to stop from 50 MPH and
100MPH it is not twice the distance from 100 but more, this is because of the V^2 (or V x
V) factor so the energy needed to stop the car from 100 MPH is 4 times what is needed
from 50. I don't recall how to derive the equation but that is the reason for it. What
do we learn from this? The load on the rod does not increase as a simple function of RPM
rather it increases more quickly.

OK, what does this all mean in the real world, basically it says the Subaru can turn
higher revs without breaking than the Lycoming and someone who takes the time to sit down
and do all the sums can prove it precisely. Of course this is academic since we already
are given max rev limits by the manufacturers and we must respect those.

Well, I don't know if that cleared up the mud a bit, I hope so!

Back to work,

Dave R.






Mike Davis wrote:
I want to know if at the end of the term we can repeat that and actually
sound like we understand that if we can all get degrees? Really though, I
love seeing it analyzed so logically.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: Re; Engine choices
Hey Dave, could you repeat that first part again, in English?

Bruce 357R
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Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Ph. 902-860-0256


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Bob Patterson

Re; Engine choices

Post by Bob Patterson » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

Hi Ken !

I'm with you ! Based on my limited experience flying &
observing Suburau powered aircraft, I believe they will be more
reliable and less expensive to run. My impression is that the less
you mess with the standard systems, the better off you'll be -
Heck ! -Geert even used standard Subaru fuel pumps submerged in the tanks !
And they worked fine ! There seems to be greatly diminished returns
from changing pistons & cams,etc. - you lose the big advantage of
cheap, readily available parts - and reliability !!

Again, in my limited experience, I've seen a MUCH lower
success rate with North American auto engine conversions - particularly
8 cylinders. They sound great in theory, but the flight line at
Oshkosh is PRETTY SPARSE with successful installations ! There
seem to be many more happy Subaru drivers ...

Dave Bangle has a mounting system that lets you bolt a 4 cyl.
Subaru straight onto standard Lycoming engine mounts - if he has
extended this technology to the 6 cylinders, this would be a
giant step towards easing the conversion !! ( Dave ???? )

The Super Rebel was designed for as low as 180 hp. - if one
had an experimental inclination, perhaps it might be worth trying
one of the 200 hp. + Subaru < 4 cylinder > variants !!?? This would
certainly provide a LOT of useful information !!

Someday, I hope to have the opportunity to fly a Super Rebel
with 180 hp., a fixed pitch metal prop, & tricycle gear ... I really
believe that this could be a viable family aircraft, and more than
a replacement for the C-172 !!

So many things to try ..... so little time !!! ;-)

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 09:36 PM 1/18/01 -0800, you wrote:
That's because there is no answer of course. I personally believe my
Subaru will be much more reliable than a Lycoming will ever be. Many
auto engines are well suited to the task but most failures are system
failures such as the psru or ignition or a poorly thought out
customization of something. The firewall forward packages have also had
their problems. If you are not prepared to learn a lot and spend the
effort, then a Lycosaur is probably more reliable simply because there
are more of them around and their problems are better known (but
expensive). Any one-off installation will have its risks, so you must do
your homework regardless of engine choice if you want to minimise nasty
surprises.
Ken

AGT wrote:
I started this discussion to answer one simple question. Will the Suburu
engine, or the Northwest-Aero LS-1 engine for that matter, be as reliable as
a Lycoming. Simple question, right? Won't someone just say yes, or no?
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Wray Thompson

Re; Engine choices

Post by Wray Thompson » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

Mike if you go here http://wrayt.tripod.com/alteng00.html there's a picture of Ryan
Robertson's SeaBee and he put an LS-1 in it and seemed very pleased. You might try
contacting him and see if he's still pleased and what his experiences are. Those pictures
were taken last Sept. at the alt engine seminar. I can't find Ryan's number but Bob or
someone probably knows him if your interested.

AGT wrote:
I started this discussion to answer one simple question. Will the Suburu
engine, or the Northwest-Aero LS-1 engine for that matter, be as reliable as
a Lycoming. Simple question, right? Won't someone just say yes, or no?

Seriously, the responses have been very informative and I thank everyone
that contributed. The only true way to tell if the auto conversions are as
reliable as aircraft engines is to get 50 years of experience in the field.
Can't wait that long, so I quess I'll have to absorb all of this info and
make a decision. The sad thing is that I'm pretty sure the airframe will be
ready for an engine long before I can afford to buy one.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 6:33 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Re; Engine choices

Hey Dave, could you repeat that first part again, in English?

Bruce 357R
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My ICQ number is 29764664


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David M Parrish

Re; Engine choices

Post by David M Parrish » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

On 18 Jan 2001, at 22:47, Bob Patterson wrote:

extended this technology to the 6 cylinders, this would be a giant
step towards easing the conversion !! ( Dave ???? )
I want one!
The Super Rebel was designed for as low as 180 hp. - if one
had an experimental inclination, perhaps it might be worth trying one
of the 200 hp. + Subaru < 4 cylinder > variants !!?? This would
certainly provide a LOT of useful information !!
From the tests that Velocity did with the EG-33 (SVX) engine, the
airplane was 40lbs heavier than with an IO-360. With the graphite
intake manafold I made, plus some machine work on the throttle
body, I've can shave about 18lbs off of that. So for 22lbs more, I
have 230HP instead of 200HP. That's close to O-540 power with
close to IO-360 weight.

The trouble is the EG-33 is fairly rare and expensive. But Subaru
has just come out with the LL Bean edition Forester, which has a
new six that's rated at 212HP. It's only a hundred pounds more
than the EJ-25 four and an inch longer. It should be much more
common than the EG-33, though no one knows how well it'll do for
conversions.

I plan to put an EG-33 in the Velocity I'm building, but right now, it
looks like we will put a Franklin in the SR-2500 that a friend and I
are going to build. 220HP, about the weight of an IO-360, fairly
cheap at $15K US new, and parts are supposed to be cheap.

---
David Parrish

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David M Parrish

Re; Engine choices

Post by David M Parrish » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

On 18 Jan 2001, at 23:11, Wray Thompson wrote:
Mike if you go here http://wrayt.tripod.com/alteng00.html there's a
picture of Ryan Robertson's SeaBee and he put an LS-1 in it and seemed
There was also an article in the latest Contact! magazine.

---
David Parrish

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Terrence A Sack

Re; Engine choices

Post by Terrence A Sack » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

An auto engine will be utterly reliable. Cooling and the speed reduction unit
will not be without experimentation, effort, and patience.

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 klehman@albedo.net wrote:
That's because there is no answer of course. I personally believe my
Subaru will be much more reliable than a Lycoming will ever be. Many
auto engines are well suited to the task but most failures are system
failures such as the psru or ignition or a poorly thought out
customization of something. The firewall forward packages have also had
their problems. If you are not prepared to learn a lot and spend the
effort, then a Lycosaur is probably more reliable simply because there
are more of them around and their problems are better known (but
expensive). Any one-off installation will have its risks, so you must do
your homework regardless of engine choice if you want to minimise nasty
surprises.
Ken

AGT wrote:
I started this discussion to answer one simple question. Will the Suburu
engine, or the Northwest-Aero LS-1 engine for that matter, be as reliable as
a Lycoming. Simple question, right? Won't someone just say yes, or no?
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Legeorgen

Re; Engine choices

Post by Legeorgen » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

Much better Dave. I liked the car analogy. I can relate and understand it
when you explain it in layman terms. I like to fly and build things so being
a real test pilot is no my thing. I follow instructions and let the
manufacturers do the tech stuff. Guys like you, on the other hand, like to
get down and analyze it all. I bet you love that part!! Am I right? Well,
thanks God for people like you. I mean somebody has to do it, right? I wish I
was that smart but I'm just a regular type. I do appreciate your input. Thanks

Blue skies
Bruce 357R

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Legeorgen

Re; Engine choices

Post by Legeorgen » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

Bob and all,

I talked to Dave Bangle (he brought his Subaru engine setup to our EAA
meeting last month) and he's working on the 2.5 liter Subaru in his Rebel as
we speak. I don't know if the 2.5 liter is a six banger or a four? He says it
will produce 260 HP when he's done. His 2.2 Subaru with prop, reduction drive
and everything firewall forward, with a few hundred hours time, is for sale.
He wanted 10 or 12 grand for the whole setup. A good deal for someone who
wants to buy, bolt on and fly.

Bruce 357R
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Bob Patterson

Re; Engine choices

Post by Bob Patterson » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

WOW ! That DOES sound interesting !!

There <is> a 2.5 litre FOUR cylinder - I think it's rated at
165 hp. in the car - and that really would be a good choice, even
stock, for a Rebel. If he can get 260 hp. out of it, then it sounds
perfect for the Super !!

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 12:46 PM 1/20/01 EST, you wrote:
Bob and all,

I talked to Dave Bangle (he brought his Subaru engine setup to our EAA
meeting last month) and he's working on the 2.5 liter Subaru in his Rebel as
we speak. I don't know if the 2.5 liter is a six banger or a four? He says it
will produce 260 HP when he's done. His 2.2 Subaru with prop, reduction drive
and everything firewall forward, with a few hundred hours time, is for sale.
He wanted 10 or 12 grand for the whole setup. A good deal for someone who
wants to buy, bolt on and fly.

Bruce 357R
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AGT

Re; Engine choices

Post by AGT » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

260HP out of a 2.5 liter engine! Wow!

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 8:46 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Re; Engine choices


Bob and all,

I talked to Dave Bangle (he brought his Subaru engine setup to our EAA
meeting last month) and he's working on the 2.5 liter Subaru in his Rebel as
we speak. I don't know if the 2.5 liter is a six banger or a four? He says
it
will produce 260 HP when he's done. His 2.2 Subaru with prop, reduction
drive
and everything firewall forward, with a few hundred hours time, is for sale.
He wanted 10 or 12 grand for the whole setup. A good deal for someone who
wants to buy, bolt on and fly.

Bruce 357R
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AGT

Re; Engine choices

Post by AGT » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:39 pm

Thanks. I sent him an email. I'm waiting for a response.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Wray Thompson [mailto:wrayt@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 7:11 PM
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
Subject: Re: Re; Engine choices


Mike if you go here http://wrayt.tripod.com/alteng00.html there's a picture
of Ryan
Robertson's SeaBee and he put an LS-1 in it and seemed very pleased. You
might try
contacting him and see if he's still pleased and what his experiences are.
Those pictures
were taken last Sept. at the alt engine seminar. I can't find Ryan's number
but Bob or
someone probably knows him if your interested.

AGT wrote:
I started this discussion to answer one simple question. Will the Suburu
engine, or the Northwest-Aero LS-1 engine for that matter, be as reliable
as
a Lycoming. Simple question, right? Won't someone just say yes, or no?

Seriously, the responses have been very informative and I thank everyone
that contributed. The only true way to tell if the auto conversions are
as
reliable as aircraft engines is to get 50 years of experience in the
field.
Can't wait that long, so I quess I'll have to absorb all of this info and
make a decision. The sad thing is that I'm pretty sure the airframe will
be
ready for an engine long before I can afford to buy one.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 6:33 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Re; Engine choices

Hey Dave, could you repeat that first part again, in English?

Bruce 357R
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Wray Thompson ...Rebel 306 ...home page http://wrayt.tripod.com/
My ICQ number is 29764664


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Legeorgen

Re; Engine choices

Post by Legeorgen » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Hey guys,

I think I might have been wrong about the 260 HP out of a 2.5 Subaru. Dave is
working on a 2.5 with and increase in the stock HP. Any one interested can
look him up on his web sight listed on Wray's web page.

Bruce 357R

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Wayne G. O'Shea

Re; Engine choices

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm

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Your following message has been delivered to the 187 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 11:54:01 on 31 Jan 2001.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Wray as far as I know BRIAN (not Ryan) is still very pleased with his
Corvette powered Seabee. It is complete with full exhaust and
air-conditioning. Climbs skyward like a rocket and the engine is installed
on the original Franklin mount positions and fits inside the original
cowling. The "one off" re-drive positioned the prop in the original position
and still has beta to back away from the dock! Brian lives on Balsam Lake
(South of Coboconk, Ontario Can) and I can get a phone number if you wish,
as my "neighbour" just gave him 2 seabee airframes to make into one "new"
corvette powered one too!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wray Thompson" <wrayt@sympatico.ca>
To: " (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: Re; Engine choices

Mike if you go here http://wrayt.tripod.com/alteng00.html there's a
picture of Ryan
Robertson's SeaBee and he put an LS-1 in it and seemed very pleased. You
might try
contacting him and see if he's still pleased and what his experiences are.
Those pictures
were taken last Sept. at the alt engine seminar. I can't find Ryan's
number but Bob or
someone probably knows him if your interested.

AGT wrote:
I started this discussion to answer one simple question. Will the
Suburu
engine, or the Northwest-Aero LS-1 engine for that matter, be as
reliable as
a Lycoming. Simple question, right? Won't someone just say yes, or no?

Seriously, the responses have been very informative and I thank everyone
that contributed. The only true way to tell if the auto conversions are
as
reliable as aircraft engines is to get 50 years of experience in the
field.
Can't wait that long, so I quess I'll have to absorb all of this info
and
make a decision. The sad thing is that I'm pretty sure the airframe
will be
ready for an engine long before I can afford to buy one.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com [mailto:Legeorgen@cs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 6:33 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Re; Engine choices

Hey Dave, could you repeat that first part again, in English?

Bruce 357R
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Wray Thompson ...Rebel 306 ...home page http://wrayt.tripod.com/
My ICQ number is 29764664


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Wray Thompson

Re; Engine choices

Post by Wray Thompson » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Thanks for the correction Wayne. I'll fix the page up.

"Wayne G. O'Shea" wrote:
Wray as far as I know BRIAN (not Ryan) is still very pleased with his
Corvette powered Seabee. It is complete with full exhaust and
air-conditioning. Climbs skyward like a rocket and the engine is installed
on the original Franklin mount positions and fits inside the original
cowling. The "one off" re-drive positioned the prop in the original position
and still has beta to back away from the dock! Brian lives on Balsam Lake
(South of Coboconk, Ontario Can) and I can get a phone number if you wish,
as my "neighbour" just gave him 2 seabee airframes to make into one "new"
corvette powered one too!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wray Thompson" <wrayt@sympatico.ca>
To: " (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: Re; Engine choices
Mike if you go here http://wrayt.tripod.com/alteng00.html there's a
picture of Ryan
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Wray Thompson ...Rebel 306 ...home page http://wrayt.tripod.com/
My ICQ number is 29764664


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