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[rebel-builders] reflex

Converted from Wildcat! database. (read only)
Ken

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:42 pm

Mine is the same Jesse. Might get a knot or two when I'm very very light
but that hardly ever is the case. Can't explain why it works better for
everyone else other than that I normally cruise quite slow and the pitch
(nose up) is noticeably higher when I reflex.
Ken

On 4/5/2011 11:10 AM, Jesse Jenks wrote:
I have about 40 hours on my Rebel now and have used my reflex several
times in cruise with no change in IAS. I am disappointed because of
the reports of a good increase by others. I have 2 notches: 5* and
10*. Any suggestions? There is still a lot of drag reduction to do on
the airframe, so that may be a factor. Thanks. Jesse


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Jesse Jenks

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Jesse Jenks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Thanks for the input Ken,
I don't feel so bad now. I thought it may have had to do with my wing tail incidences but who knows. I set .5 degrees on the horizontal stab which gives a neutral elevator in flight with an average load.
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:45:33 -0400
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] reflex

Mine is the same Jesse. Might get a knot or two when I'm very very light
but that hardly ever is the case. Can't explain why it works better for
everyone else other than that I normally cruise quite slow and the pitch
(nose up) is noticeably higher when I reflex.
Ken

On 4/5/2011 11:10 AM, Jesse Jenks wrote:
I have about 40 hours on my Rebel now and have used my reflex several
times in cruise with no change in IAS. I am disappointed because of
the reports of a good increase by others. I have 2 notches: 5* and
10*. Any suggestions? There is still a lot of drag reduction to do on
the airframe, so that may be a factor. Thanks. Jesse


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Walter Klatt

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Walter Klatt » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Jesse, do you have the LE cuffs on your plane?

With mine, I get at least 5 mph increase in speed with the reflex. But not
at slow speeds, brings the nose up as Ken says. No cuffs, just VGs.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:26 PM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex


Thanks for the input Ken,
I don't feel so bad now. I thought it may have had to do with my wing tail
incidences but who knows. I set .5 degrees on the horizontal stab which
gives a neutral elevator in flight with an average load.
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:45:33 -0400
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] reflex

Mine is the same Jesse. Might get a knot or two when I'm very very light
but that hardly ever is the case. Can't explain why it works better for
everyone else other than that I normally cruise quite slow and the pitch
(nose up) is noticeably higher when I reflex.
Ken

On 4/5/2011 11:10 AM, Jesse Jenks wrote:
I have about 40 hours on my Rebel now and have used my reflex several
times in cruise with no change in IAS. I am disappointed because of
the reports of a good increase by others. I have 2 notches: 5* and
10*. Any suggestions? There is still a lot of drag reduction to do on
the airframe, so that may be a factor. Thanks. Jesse


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Jesse Jenks

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Jesse Jenks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Hi Walter,
No I don't have VGs or cuffs.
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 12:32:16 -0700

Jesse, do you have the LE cuffs on your plane?

With mine, I get at least 5 mph increase in speed with the reflex. But not
at slow speeds, brings the nose up as Ken says. No cuffs, just VGs.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:26 PM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex


Thanks for the input Ken,
I don't feel so bad now. I thought it may have had to do with my wing tail
incidences but who knows. I set .5 degrees on the horizontal stab which
gives a neutral elevator in flight with an average load.
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:45:33 -0400
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] reflex

Mine is the same Jesse. Might get a knot or two when I'm very very light
but that hardly ever is the case. Can't explain why it works better for
everyone else other than that I normally cruise quite slow and the pitch
(nose up) is noticeably higher when I reflex.
Ken

On 4/5/2011 11:10 AM, Jesse Jenks wrote:
I have about 40 hours on my Rebel now and have used my reflex several
times in cruise with no change in IAS. I am disappointed because of
the reports of a good increase by others. I have 2 notches: 5* and
10*. Any suggestions? There is still a lot of drag reduction to do on
the airframe, so that may be a factor. Thanks. Jesse


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Charlie Eubanks

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Charlie Eubanks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Hi Jesse, Walter, every one
Before I heard Rebel builders were changing the angle of incidence on the
horizontal stab I set mine by the manual to 1 degree. I plan to certify at
1,320 gross, wheels only, my engine is a Lyc. O-235, 115 Hp. Should I be
changing my angle to something less?
Charlie 802R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: "Builders list" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex

Thanks for the input Ken,
I don't feel so bad now. I thought it may have had to do with my wing tail
incidences but who knows. I set .5 degrees on the horizontal stab which
gives a neutral elevator in flight with an average load.
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:45:33 -0400
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] reflex

Mine is the same Jesse. Might get a knot or two when I'm very very light
but that hardly ever is the case. Can't explain why it works better for
everyone else other than that I normally cruise quite slow and the pitch
(nose up) is noticeably higher when I reflex.
Ken

On 4/5/2011 11:10 AM, Jesse Jenks wrote:
I have about 40 hours on my Rebel now and have used my reflex several
times in cruise with no change in IAS. I am disappointed because of
the reports of a good increase by others. I have 2 notches: 5* and
10*. Any suggestions? There is still a lot of drag reduction to do on
the airframe, so that may be a factor. Thanks. Jesse


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Walter Klatt

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Walter Klatt » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Maybe your "neutral" position is closer to my "reflex" position, therefore
less of a change for you. Also, don't forget that there is a lot of flex, so
in flight your reflex will be a lot less than how it appears on the ground.
Try to adjust your flaperon mechanism so you get more reflex and see if that
helps.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:09 PM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex


Hi Walter,
No I don't have VGs or cuffs.
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 12:32:16 -0700

Jesse, do you have the LE cuffs on your plane?

With mine, I get at least 5 mph increase in speed with the reflex. But not
at slow speeds, brings the nose up as Ken says. No cuffs, just VGs.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:26 PM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex


Thanks for the input Ken,
I don't feel so bad now. I thought it may have had to do with my wing tail
incidences but who knows. I set .5 degrees on the horizontal stab which
gives a neutral elevator in flight with an average load.
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:45:33 -0400
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] reflex

Mine is the same Jesse. Might get a knot or two when I'm very very light
but that hardly ever is the case. Can't explain why it works better for
everyone else other than that I normally cruise quite slow and the pitch
(nose up) is noticeably higher when I reflex.
Ken

On 4/5/2011 11:10 AM, Jesse Jenks wrote:
I have about 40 hours on my Rebel now and have used my reflex several
times in cruise with no change in IAS. I am disappointed because of
the reports of a good increase by others. I have 2 notches: 5* and
10*. Any suggestions? There is still a lot of drag reduction to do on
the airframe, so that may be a factor. Thanks. Jesse


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Jesse Jenks

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Jesse Jenks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

I may give that a try
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 16:02:05 -0700

Maybe your "neutral" position is closer to my "reflex" position, therefore
less of a change for you. Also, don't forget that there is a lot of flex, so
in flight your reflex will be a lot less than how it appears on the ground.
Try to adjust your flaperon mechanism so you get more reflex and see if that
helps.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:09 PM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex


Hi Walter,
No I don't have VGs or cuffs.
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 12:32:16 -0700

Jesse, do you have the LE cuffs on your plane?

With mine, I get at least 5 mph increase in speed with the reflex. But not
at slow speeds, brings the nose up as Ken says. No cuffs, just VGs.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:26 PM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex


Thanks for the input Ken,
I don't feel so bad now. I thought it may have had to do with my wing tail
incidences but who knows. I set .5 degrees on the horizontal stab which
gives a neutral elevator in flight with an average load.
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:45:33 -0400
From: klehman@albedo.net
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] reflex

Mine is the same Jesse. Might get a knot or two when I'm very very light
but that hardly ever is the case. Can't explain why it works better for
everyone else other than that I normally cruise quite slow and the pitch
(nose up) is noticeably higher when I reflex.
Ken

On 4/5/2011 11:10 AM, Jesse Jenks wrote:
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Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Also be sure you're not flying on the "step" in the first place. The Rebel
has two cruise modes, at least in everyone that I've flown. If you just take
off and level out... you'll be flying on the "step" and slower. I've found
every Rebel needs to be pushed over the step just like flying floats and
then brought back up to level cruise for top speed. Especially true when
flying in reflex. I definitely get about 3 or 4 knots in Reflex while on
floats. Aircraft loses some of that stable feeling though, so I only do it
on days without turbulence.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: "Builders list" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex

I may give that a try
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 16:02:05 -0700

Maybe your "neutral" position is closer to my "reflex" position,
therefore
less of a change for you. Also, don't forget that there is a lot of flex,
so
in flight your reflex will be a lot less than how it appears on the
ground.
Try to adjust your flaperon mechanism so you get more reflex and see if
that
helps.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:09 PM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex


Hi Walter,
No I don't have VGs or cuffs.
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 12:32:16 -0700

Jesse, do you have the LE cuffs on your plane?

With mine, I get at least 5 mph increase in speed with the reflex. But
not
at slow speeds, brings the nose up as Ken says. No cuffs, just VGs.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:26 PM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex


Thanks for the input Ken,
I don't feel so bad now. I thought it may have had to do with my wing
tail
incidences but who knows. I set .5 degrees on the horizontal stab which
gives a neutral elevator in flight with an average load.


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Walter Klatt

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Walter Klatt » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Yes, that is very true. With mine I can slow down as much as 80 mph when in
reflex, before my nose starts coming up. But if I just go into reflex at 80
from neutral, it doesn't work. You need to go fast enough, probably closer
to 100 mph, before it really works, and you gain the extra speed.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:35 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] reflex

Also be sure you're not flying on the "step" in the first place. The Rebel
has two cruise modes, at least in everyone that I've flown. If you just take

off and level out... you'll be flying on the "step" and slower. I've found
every Rebel needs to be pushed over the step just like flying floats and
then brought back up to level cruise for top speed. Especially true when
flying in reflex. I definitely get about 3 or 4 knots in Reflex while on
floats. Aircraft loses some of that stable feeling though, so I only do it
on days without turbulence.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: "Builders list" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex

I may give that a try
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 16:02:05 -0700

Maybe your "neutral" position is closer to my "reflex" position,
therefore
less of a change for you. Also, don't forget that there is a lot of flex,
so
in flight your reflex will be a lot less than how it appears on the
ground.
Try to adjust your flaperon mechanism so you get more reflex and see if
that
helps.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:09 PM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex


Hi Walter,
No I don't have VGs or cuffs.
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 12:32:16 -0700

Jesse, do you have the LE cuffs on your plane?

With mine, I get at least 5 mph increase in speed with the reflex. But
not
at slow speeds, brings the nose up as Ken says. No cuffs, just VGs.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:26 PM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex


Thanks for the input Ken,
I don't feel so bad now. I thought it may have had to do with my wing
tail
incidences but who knows. I set .5 degrees on the horizontal stab which
gives a neutral elevator in flight with an average load.


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Jesse Jenks

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Jesse Jenks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

My cruise speed is around 96 knots indicated and that is where I have tried the reflex with no change in IAS or GPS groundspeed that I can see.
Should I try pushing it over to accelerate a bit more before using reflex?
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 16:48:18 -0700

Yes, that is very true. With mine I can slow down as much as 80 mph when in
reflex, before my nose starts coming up. But if I just go into reflex at 80
from neutral, it doesn't work. You need to go fast enough, probably closer
to 100 mph, before it really works, and you gain the extra speed.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:35 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] reflex

Also be sure you're not flying on the "step" in the first place. The Rebel
has two cruise modes, at least in everyone that I've flown. If you just take

off and level out... you'll be flying on the "step" and slower. I've found
every Rebel needs to be pushed over the step just like flying floats and
then brought back up to level cruise for top speed. Especially true when
flying in reflex. I definitely get about 3 or 4 knots in Reflex while on
floats. Aircraft loses some of that stable feeling though, so I only do it
on days without turbulence.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: "Builders list" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex

I may give that a try
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 16:02:05 -0700

Maybe your "neutral" position is closer to my "reflex" position,
therefore
less of a change for you. Also, don't forget that there is a lot of flex,
so
in flight your reflex will be a lot less than how it appears on the
ground.
Try to adjust your flaperon mechanism so you get more reflex and see if
that
helps.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:09 PM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex


Hi Walter,
No I don't have VGs or cuffs.
Jesse

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Bob Palmer

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Bob Palmer » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

AVweb has a article that has a good understanding of induced drag in
this situation. It is a good description of the mechanics involved in
cruise airspeed set up. (Paragraph heading"Myth #1 --- Getting It "On
The Step"" <http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184274-1.html>. )
Although, it seems to me that she isn't aware of how it came to be
referred to as "on the step". My understanding is that the term
represents an easily understood example of induced drag where the floats
are designed by the use of a step to take advantage of the lift
properties of water and at a certain point allow for a significant
reduction in induced drag by reducing surface friction. (where the water
seperates aft of the step or being "on the step"). Something similar is
"being behind the power curve".

Bob.






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Bob Patterson

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Bob Patterson » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Thanks Bob !

A generally good article, BUT ..... i don't have 10,000 hours on
Citation jets, however, I have owned a few aircraft that definitely
DID have a 'step' -- a few moments of inattention could cost you
15 mph cruise on our old Aeronca Sedan !

With the Rebel, we have found that it does take a certain amount
of power to get the advantage of reflex - my 150 hp. Rebel gives me
about 118 mph at 2,450 rpm with 2 notches reflex. Dropping down
to 2,350 costs me about 4 or 5 mph, but saves one gallon/hour !

Our 80 hp. Rebel would not pull reflex at all if heavily loaded on
a hot day - the nose went up, it slowed a bit, and just 'sagged' ....
if you were light, and used the 'step' technique of trimming out
a couple of hundred feet high, then gently pushing down to
cruise altitude, it would give an extra 6 or 7 mph. My thought was
that once you had overcome some inertia, and unloaded the engine
by increasing the speed slightly, some of the extra rpm stuck
without as much work .... could be imagination, but it cruised
at 97 mph every time I did it !

Our O-235-C2C Rebel could only pull one notch of reflex, sometimes,
and was still several mph slower than the 912. The other Rebel,
with a newer O-235-L2C (118 real hp !!) could easily pull 2 notches,
and gave 110 mph cruise consistently....

Jesse - I would give it a try - and use 2,450 rpm .... see if that
helps a bit. 96 KT seems a bit slow - what prop do you have ?
Mine is a Sensenich metal, 74 x 56 ... maybe a bit too coarse,
but not enough hassle to change at the moment ... maybe one
day I'll try dropping back to 55 or so ...
C of G position can have an effect too - mine is forward, about 8.5".

You are right that cleanup can really help - there's 10 mph to
be had just in the gear fairings, - maybe 3+ mph in the gap at the
top of the legs alone, ... and seal the gap in the middle of the flapperons !
You wouldn't believe the vortex that comes out of there !!
It's easy to put a strip of aluminum on top, wrap it under, cutting
the center into a finger to bend up & rivet to the top. This avoids
making a 'pocket' there, and clears the hinge. There are lots more !
Steve Sloan even has snap on fairings over his float attach lugs ...
and tapered balsa trailing edges on the stab struts ...
All his cleanups gave him 135 mph cruise on 125 hp !!!

Being glider pilots, we used wide electrical tape to seal air leaks
on the wing root fairings, and other spots.... not for everyone ! ;-)

--

......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
bobp@pattersys.com
http://www.Pattersys.com
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.


On April 8, 2011 03:39:08 pm Bob Palmer wrote:
AVweb has a article that has a good understanding of induced drag in
this situation. It is a good description of the mechanics involved in
cruise airspeed set up. (Paragraph heading"Myth #1 --- Getting It "On
The Step"" <http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184274-1.html>. )
Although, it seems to me that she isn't aware of how it came to be
referred to as "on the step". My understanding is that the term
represents an easily understood example of induced drag where the floats
are designed by the use of a step to take advantage of the lift
properties of water and at a certain point allow for a significant
reduction in induced drag by reducing surface friction. (where the water
seperates aft of the step or being "on the step"). Something similar is
"being behind the power curve".

Bob.


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Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Exactly Bobp... I just went thru my logs.. 879 hours on type.. 13 different
Rebels (AULA - 80HP, O-235 -100 HP, O-320 150/160/173HP).. 2 Elites @ 180HP
and they've all had two "phases" of cruise at the exact same RPM.. One
slow.. one respectable. As I said in my first post... if you just climb out
and then level off, 9 times out of 10 you'll find yourself mushing along 5
to 10 MPH slower than you could be going at the exact same RPM. Push the
nose over and then pick it back up level. The Elite is less evident... but
it's still there.

Waybe

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bobp@prosumers.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] reflex

Thanks Bob !

A generally good article, BUT ..... i don't have 10,000 hours on
Citation jets, however, I have owned a few aircraft that definitely
DID have a 'step' -- a few moments of inattention could cost you
15 mph cruise on our old Aeronca Sedan !

With the Rebel, we have found that it does take a certain amount
of power to get the advantage of reflex - my 150 hp. Rebel gives me
about 118 mph at 2,450 rpm with 2 notches reflex. Dropping down
to 2,350 costs me about 4 or 5 mph, but saves one gallon/hour !

Our 80 hp. Rebel would not pull reflex at all if heavily loaded on
a hot day - the nose went up, it slowed a bit, and just 'sagged' ....
if you were light, and used the 'step' technique of trimming out
a couple of hundred feet high, then gently pushing down to
cruise altitude, it would give an extra 6 or 7 mph. My thought was
that once you had overcome some inertia, and unloaded the engine
by increasing the speed slightly, some of the extra rpm stuck
without as much work .... could be imagination, but it cruised
at 97 mph every time I did it !

Our O-235-C2C Rebel could only pull one notch of reflex, sometimes,
and was still several mph slower than the 912. The other Rebel,
with a newer O-235-L2C (118 real hp !!) could easily pull 2 notches,
and gave 110 mph cruise consistently....

Jesse - I would give it a try - and use 2,450 rpm .... see if that
helps a bit. 96 KT seems a bit slow - what prop do you have ?
Mine is a Sensenich metal, 74 x 56 ... maybe a bit too coarse,
but not enough hassle to change at the moment ... maybe one
day I'll try dropping back to 55 or so ...
C of G position can have an effect too - mine is forward, about 8.5".

You are right that cleanup can really help - there's 10 mph to
be had just in the gear fairings, - maybe 3+ mph in the gap at the
top of the legs alone, ... and seal the gap in the middle of the
flapperons !
You wouldn't believe the vortex that comes out of there !!
It's easy to put a strip of aluminum on top, wrap it under, cutting
the center into a finger to bend up & rivet to the top. This avoids
making a 'pocket' there, and clears the hinge. There are lots more !
Steve Sloan even has snap on fairings over his float attach lugs ...
and tapered balsa trailing edges on the stab struts ...
All his cleanups gave him 135 mph cruise on 125 hp !!!

Being glider pilots, we used wide electrical tape to seal air leaks
on the wing root fairings, and other spots.... not for everyone ! ;-)

--

......bobp
bobp@prosumers.ca
bobp@pattersys.com
http://www.Pattersys.com
http://www.amway.ca/BobPatterson

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender
and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other entities or
persons.
Any action taken as a result of the contents of this email is totally the
responsibility of the reader.


On April 8, 2011 03:39:08 pm Bob Palmer wrote:
AVweb has a article that has a good understanding of induced drag in
this situation. It is a good description of the mechanics involved in
cruise airspeed set up. (Paragraph heading"Myth #1 --- Getting It "On
The Step"" <http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184274-1.html>. )
Although, it seems to me that she isn't aware of how it came to be
referred to as "on the step". My understanding is that the term
represents an easily understood example of induced drag where the floats
are designed by the use of a step to take advantage of the lift
properties of water and at a certain point allow for a significant
reduction in induced drag by reducing surface friction. (where the water
seperates aft of the step or being "on the step"). Something similar is
"being behind the power curve".

Bob.


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Walter Klatt

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Walter Klatt » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

Yeah, at 96 knots, reflex should definitely work. You want to reach your
cruise speed before going to reflex, or push down to achieve it as you apply
reflex. If you have to speed up to cruise in reflex, it might take more
power.

I would play around too, with adjusting your flaperon mechanism to see what
works best. It makes no sense at all that you don't get any extra speed with
reflex. With mine it is really noticeable. The odd time I have been
distracted and didn't apply reflex after leveling off in cruise, I noticed
extra fuel flow, to achieve my normal cruise speed, and that would clue me
in immediately to set my reflex.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 10:56 AM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex



My cruise speed is around 96 knots indicated and that is where I have tried
the reflex with no change in IAS or GPS groundspeed that I can see.
Should I try pushing it over to accelerate a bit more before using reflex?
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 16:48:18 -0700

Yes, that is very true. With mine I can slow down as much as 80 mph when
in
reflex, before my nose starts coming up. But if I just go into reflex at
80
from neutral, it doesn't work. You need to go fast enough, probably closer
to 100 mph, before it really works, and you gain the extra speed.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:35 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] reflex

Also be sure you're not flying on the "step" in the first place. The Rebel
has two cruise modes, at least in everyone that I've flown. If you just
take
off and level out... you'll be flying on the "step" and slower. I've found
every Rebel needs to be pushed over the step just like flying floats and
then brought back up to level cruise for top speed. Especially true when
flying in reflex. I definitely get about 3 or 4 knots in Reflex while on
floats. Aircraft loses some of that stable feeling though, so I only do it
on days without turbulence.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: "Builders list" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex

I may give that a try
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 16:02:05 -0700

Maybe your "neutral" position is closer to my "reflex" position,
therefore
less of a change for you. Also, don't forget that there is a lot of
flex,
so
in flight your reflex will be a lot less than how it appears on the
ground.
Try to adjust your flaperon mechanism so you get more reflex and see if
that
helps.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:09 PM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex


Hi Walter,
No I don't have VGs or cuffs.
But
Jesse
which
of
and
do


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Jesse Jenks

[rebel-builders] reflex

Post by Jesse Jenks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:43 pm

At this point I think I would have to make a new flap handle bracket with new holes, or else adjust the teleflex cable length but that would sacrifice the normal down flap travel. It may be a worthwhile experiment though, and I want to build a better flap handle/mechanism at some point anyway. The issue is that I set my max reflex so that the flaperon mixer arm hits it's max up travel...there is no more room there for adjustment. I did that in case the flap handle lets go so it can only go up so far.
Bobp, I have the same prop as you and I was thinking it was a pretty good climb prop. I would think a 55 would be too fine for good cruise performance...especially with a cleaned up airframe. I was planning to re-pitch to 54 per Walters recommendation once I go to floats though.

From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 17:30:44 -0700

Yeah, at 96 knots, reflex should definitely work. You want to reach your
cruise speed before going to reflex, or push down to achieve it as you apply
reflex. If you have to speed up to cruise in reflex, it might take more
power.

I would play around too, with adjusting your flaperon mechanism to see what
works best. It makes no sense at all that you don't get any extra speed with
reflex. With mine it is really noticeable. The odd time I have been
distracted and didn't apply reflex after leveling off in cruise, I noticed
extra fuel flow, to achieve my normal cruise speed, and that would clue me
in immediately to set my reflex.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 10:56 AM
To: Builders list
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex



My cruise speed is around 96 knots indicated and that is where I have tried
the reflex with no change in IAS or GPS groundspeed that I can see.
Should I try pushing it over to accelerate a bit more before using reflex?
From: Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 16:48:18 -0700

Yes, that is very true. With mine I can slow down as much as 80 mph when
in
reflex, before my nose starts coming up. But if I just go into reflex at
80
from neutral, it doesn't work. You need to go fast enough, probably closer
to 100 mph, before it really works, and you gain the extra speed.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 4:35 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] reflex

Also be sure you're not flying on the "step" in the first place. The Rebel
has two cruise modes, at least in everyone that I've flown. If you just
take
off and level out... you'll be flying on the "step" and slower. I've found
every Rebel needs to be pushed over the step just like flying floats and
then brought back up to level cruise for top speed. Especially true when
flying in reflex. I definitely get about 3 or 4 knots in Reflex while on
floats. Aircraft loses some of that stable feeling though, so I only do it
on days without turbulence.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: "Builders list" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] reflex

I may give that a try
flex,
But
which
of
and
do


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