[rebel-builders] Firewall sealant

[Richard Wampach]

Jesse, If I may---A quote from the Cessna R-182 service manual chapter
17-66 Firewall damage: Firewall sheets may be repaired by--lapping over
the old material w/ .016 material---and sealed with Prow-seal No.700
(Coast Pro-Seal Co., chemical division, 2235 Beverly Blvd., Los Angeles,
CA or an equivalent and secured with MS16535- (steel) or MS20613-
(corrosion resistant steel) rivets. Use the same rivets for the heater
box. Most of the other attaching hardware may be installed with
MS20470- rivets.

The speck on 700 is ---withstand temperature of 2,000*f for 5 min.

I have never been involved with an engine compartment fire, but I do
know that I would want all the protection I could have.

Fuel tank sealant is good for only about 200*-300*f. Red RTV is good
for about 500*f. Beechcraft uses a putty type material, kind of like a
strip caulk. This stuff dries rather hard after a few years, but is
supposed to swell up when it gets real hot. I will know more about this
stuff when my order arrives on Tuesday of next week. I need to reseal
the firewall of an F-33-A before I put in the IO-550 conversion----which
is keeping me from working on my Moose! But it means more Moose parts!!

Hope this helps you decide.

Dick Wampach SR-108



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 8:09 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Firewall sealant

I got some 3M fire barrier sealant with the idea of using it to fill in
the
voids in the firewall where it meets the 4 corner wraps. I used it
between
the mating surfaces of the firewall and side/bottom/corner skins (don't
ask
me why, it just seemed like a good idea at the time) when I riveted them
on,
and discovered that it doesn't stick to metal very well. Now I am
hesitant
to use it as the primary material in the void filling operation. It will
be
exposed to fuel and oil, and aside from it's hopefully
never-to-be-needed
role as a fire stopper, it has the every day role of stopping heat,
fumes,
and anything else nasty from entering the cabin. I am now thinking a
true
sealant material like proseal would be better as the primary fillet
material, with a coat of the Fire Barrier on the engine side.
What have others done here?
Thanks in advance. Jesse

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[Ken]

The CP25+ barrier (guessing from memory) isn't as sticky as most
sealants but with scotchbrited, degreased surfaces I have yet to see any
come loose. I'd guess that old product might be less sticky but mine was
a year or two old when applied and I also wondered if it was going to
stay in place at the time of installation. I'd use it again unless I had
a local affordable source of the fire rated proseal product. None of
the silicone or rtv based stuff (fire rated or not) were resistant to
flames when I tested them.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

I got some 3M fire barrier sealant with the idea of using it to fill in the
voids in the firewall where it meets the 4 corner wraps. I used it between
the mating surfaces of the firewall and side/bottom/corner skins (don't ask
me why, it just seemed like a good idea at the time) when I riveted them on,
and discovered that it doesn't stick to metal very well. Now I am hesitant
to use it as the primary material in the void filling operation. It will be
exposed to fuel and oil, and aside from it's hopefully never-to-be-needed
role as a fire stopper, it has the every day role of stopping heat, fumes,
and anything else nasty from entering the cabin. I am now thinking a true
sealant material like proseal would be better as the primary fillet
material, with a coat of the Fire Barrier on the engine side.
What have others done here?
Thanks in advance. Jesse

_

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[Jesse Jenks]

Thanks Ken and Dick,
Ken,
My stuff is CP 25 WB+. I guess the WB stands for water based. Not sure if
that is different than what you used. I am most worried about the bottom
corners of the firewall where the flange could allow oil to pool up against
the sealant and cause it to come off over time.
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Firewall sealant
Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 07:16:50 -0400

The CP25+ barrier (guessing from memory) isn't as sticky as most
sealants but with scotchbrited, degreased surfaces I have yet to see any
come loose. I'd guess that old product might be less sticky but mine was
a year or two old when applied and I also wondered if it was going to
stay in place at the time of installation. I'd use it again unless I had
a local affordable source of the fire rated proseal product. None of
the silicone or rtv based stuff (fire rated or not) were resistant to
flames when I tested them.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

I got some 3M fire barrier sealant with the idea of using it to fill in

the

voids in the firewall where it meets the 4 corner wraps. I used it

between

the mating surfaces of the firewall and side/bottom/corner skins (don't

ask

me why, it just seemed like a good idea at the time) when I riveted them

on,

and discovered that it doesn't stick to metal very well. Now I am

hesitant

to use it as the primary material in the void filling operation. It will

be

exposed to fuel and oil, and aside from it's hopefully never-to-be-needed
role as a fire stopper, it has the every day role of stopping heat,

fumes,

and anything else nasty from entering the cabin. I am now thinking a true
sealant material like proseal would be better as the primary fillet
material, with a coat of the Fire Barrier on the engine side.
What have others done here?
Thanks in advance. Jesse

_

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_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine

[Jesse Jenks]

Thanks Roger,
I just ordered some to try it out.
Jesse

From: rognal@dcsol.com
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Firewall sealant
Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 09:20:39 -0900

Jesse

I used the CS1900 firewall sealant from the Van's online catalog. Here's a
link:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/cat ... ion=search

There was more than enough to seal the firewall corners, inside and out.
This is a two part sealant contained within the application tube. You mix
the two parts in the tube, and apply it from the tube. It looks, feels,
mixes, and is applied just like ProSeal.

The only issue I had was the application from the tube. It was difficult to
get the tube into the corner areas of the firewall to get a good fillet. I
ended up cutting open the tube, scooping the sealant out and applying it
with a popsicle stick. Once it is mixed you have to use it. It should be
much easier to apply if the instrument panel, rudder pedals, etc. have not
been installed, or if it could be applied during assembly of the firewall
to the fuselage.

Hope this helps,

Roger Hoffman #687R
Eugene, OR USA!



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_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine

[Ron Shannon]

RTV high temp red, available from Aircraft Spruce, part no. 09-27900.
Also available at many hardware & auto supply stores.



Newcog@aol.com wrote:

What firewall sealant is a good choice and readily available in the US?

Norm Wandke

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

There is a "true" firewall sealant that will actually take the temp the
stainless firewall is taking if needed. I'm sure Ken Lehman will chime
in...I misplaced my piece of paper with that on it!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Firewall sealant

RTV high temp red, available from Aircraft Spruce, part no. 09-27900.
Also available at many hardware & auto supply stores.



Newcog@aol.com wrote:

What firewall sealant is a good choice and readily available in the US?

Norm Wandke

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[Richard Wampach]

Red RTV is good for about 500*F. Gasoline is good for about 1500*F
---(give or take a few hundred degrees) I would not use RTV as a
primary sealant because I don't think I could stand that heat in the
event of an engine compartment fire. This is not a place for
short-cuts!

One of the major airframe manufactures parts books lists "700" sealant,
firewall. For sealing firewall joints and openings, withstands 2000*f
temp for 5 minutes. I do not know if that is a PRC, or EC
(mfgr)product. If you can not locate it in your normal source, it's not
found in Spruce, Wick's or Chief catalogs. You might try Yingling
aircraft in Wichita Kansas, (right across the street from the
Manufacture) 1-800-854-2647.

Dick Wampach


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:21 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Firewall sealant

There is a "true" firewall sealant that will actually take the temp the
stainless firewall is taking if needed. I'm sure Ken Lehman will chime
in...I misplaced my piece of paper with that on it!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Firewall sealant

RTV high temp red, available from Aircraft Spruce, part no. 09-27900.
Also available at many hardware & auto supply stores.



Newcog@aol.com wrote:

What firewall sealant is a good choice and readily available in the

US?

Norm Wandke

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[Michael Kraus]

Van's Aircraft sells Firewall Sealant. Just search for it on their website You will also need the dispense gun, an additional $17.
-Mike Kraus

-----Original Message-----
From: Newcog@aol.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: 10/30/07 10:58 AM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Firewall sealant

What firewall sealant is a good choice and readily available in the US?

Norm Wandke



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com




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[Ken]

Exactly right. As far as I can tell by reading specs and applying some
flame to them, all silicone based sealants including the fire rated ones
turn to powder above about 550F. They will fail long before an aluminum
firewall would fail. It makes no sense that inspectors accept red
silicone but insist on a steel firewall. Almost as mysterious to me is
accepting an aluminum heater valve on a steel firewall. Thin aluminum
melts in seconds at around 1100F when placed in front of a torch. I
also think that installing the firewall backward with the flanges facing
aft makes sense for fire resistance. I didn't do that as it creates
other problems but I did cover some of the rivets and flanges with Fire
barrier.

Many folks including me used 3M Fire Barrier CPWB+ which is a real
itumescent sealant which is available from Home Depot in the USA but a
bit harder to find in Canada. It comes in a standard 300 ml caulking
cartridge.

Ken



Richard Wampach wrote:

Red RTV is good for about 500*F. Gasoline is good for about 1500*F
---(give or take a few hundred degrees) I would not use RTV as a
primary sealant because I don't think I could stand that heat in the
event of an engine compartment fire. This is not a place for
short-cuts!

One of the major airframe manufactures parts books lists "700" sealant,
firewall. For sealing firewall joints and openings, withstands 2000*f
temp for 5 minutes. I do not know if that is a PRC, or EC
(mfgr)product. If you can not locate it in your normal source, it's not
found in Spruce, Wick's or Chief catalogs. You might try Yingling
aircraft in Wichita Kansas, (right across the street from the
Manufacture) 1-800-854-2647.

Dick Wampach

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[Rick Muller]

Off hand do you know the rating on the 3M product you mentioned below?

Rick Muller
SR70


On 11/1/07, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:

Exactly right. As far as I can tell by reading specs and applying some
flame to them, all silicone based sealants including the fire rated ones
turn to powder above about 550F. They will fail long before an aluminum
firewall would fail. It makes no sense that inspectors accept red
silicone but insist on a steel firewall. Almost as mysterious to me is
accepting an aluminum heater valve on a steel firewall. Thin aluminum
melts in seconds at around 1100F when placed in front of a torch. I
also think that installing the firewall backward with the flanges facing
aft makes sense for fire resistance. I didn't do that as it creates
other problems but I did cover some of the rivets and flanges with Fire
barrier.

Many folks including me used 3M Fire Barrier CPWB+ which is a real
itumescent sealant which is available from Home Depot in the USA but a
bit harder to find in Canada. It comes in a standard 300 ml caulking
cartridge.

Ken



Richard Wampach wrote:

Red RTV is good for about 500*F. Gasoline is good for about 1500*F
---(give or take a few hundred degrees) I would not use RTV as a
primary sealant because I don't think I could stand that heat in the
event of an engine compartment fire. This is not a place for
short-cuts!

One of the major airframe manufactures parts books lists "700" sealant,
firewall. For sealing firewall joints and openings, withstands 2000*f
temp for 5 minutes. I do not know if that is a PRC, or EC
(mfgr)product. If you can not locate it in your normal source, it's not
found in Spruce, Wick's or Chief catalogs. You might try Yingling
aircraft in Wichita Kansas, (right across the street from the
Manufacture) 1-800-854-2647.

Dick Wampach

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--
Rick Muller
Rick.H.Muller@gmail.com
303 641 6623




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[Ken]

The label mentions
ASTM E814 (UL 1479)
ASTM E84 (UL 723)

Ken

Rick Muller wrote:

Off hand do you know the rating on the 3M product you mentioned below?

Rick Muller
SR70

snip
Many folks including me used 3M Fire Barrier CPWB+ which is a real
itumescent sealant which is available from Home Depot in the USA but a
bit harder to find in Canada. It comes in a standard 300 ml caulking
cartridge.

Ken

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[Rick Muller]

Interesting specs... Do you know a cost?

Rick Muller
SR70


On 11/5/07, Jean Poirier <jean.poirier@oxyportneuf.com> wrote:
[quote]
As everone try that products ? Specs are exceptional!
http://www.kirkhill-ta.com/pdf/FB100-Fa ... Series.pdf

Jean
Rebel 747R


Jean Poirier
Pr

[Jean Poirier]

I have no idea! I send them a e:mail to know if they have a Canadian
distributor...

Jean Poirier
Pr

[Dale Fultz]

the sealant runs $411.50 per quart and has a 5-7 weeks lead time as it is
manufactured as needed.. Hope this helps... Dale




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Man...that red RTV's sounded good ! LOL !!!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Fultz" <dfultz17086@embarqmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] firewall sealant

the sealant runs $411.50 per quart and has a 5-7 weeks lead time as it is
manufactured as needed.. Hope this helps... Dale




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