[rebel-builders] Re: [Subaru/Ross Aero Drive

[Brian]

I'm wondering where you heard that cross flow was gone. I've dialoged with
them as recently as yesterday, and they appear to be alive and well.

Am I missing something?

http://www.crossflow.com/

Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
ray.mason@dcsol.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:27 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [Subaru/Ross Aero Drive

Crossflow is definitely gone. Not many have lasted and all have had some
sort of problems. Eggenfeller has done about the best and Maxwell is just
getting back to shipping product after the NSI fiasco.

Murphy does not support any automotive engines.

Ray

On 10/1/2007 2:48 PM, jcole@rangroup.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I think someone may have mentioned Crossflow last week - one of my
hangar
-> mates was in Collingwood on Sunday and according to the airport - they
have
-> gone out of business. I don't know anything else.
->
-> Jim
-> Rebel 333
->
->
-> On 10/1/2007 8:26 PM, "ray.mason@dcsol.com"
<ray.mason@dcsol.com> wrote:
->
-> > For those looking at a subie, Maxwell Propulsion
-> > http://www.maxwellpropulsion.com has almost or just finished testing
all
-> > the components for their EJ25 FWF. I have seen the PSRU and it does
look
-> > good. I believe it is the only one out there that is designed by an
-> > aeronautical engineer.
-> >
-> > Ray
-> >
-> >
-> > On 9/26/2007 2:11 PM, im_planecrazy@yahoo.com wrote to rebel-
builders:
-> >
-> > -> I purchased a damaged Rebel that has a Formula Power Sub engine
that
-> > uses the Ross PRSU. I have not run the engine as I had originally
intended
-> > to rebuild the plane. I talked to the gentleman that built this Rebel
and
he
-> > relayed that he had ZERO problems with the engine or the redrive. It
had
-> > 303 hours on it when I purchased it from the insurance sale. I am
thinkling
-> > of selling it though since I highly doubt I will ever have the time to
rebuild
-> > it.
-> > ->
-> > -> Keith R661
-> > ->
-> > -> mdb1225@comcast.net wrote:
-> > -> Ken,
-> > ->
-> > -> EPI makes a strong case for not using a subaru engine.
-> > ->
-> > -> The Vans forum comments run 50/50.
-> > ->
-> > -> What does Murphy Air have to say about this?
-> > ->
-> > -> Mike
-> > ->
-> > -> -------------- Original message --------------
-> > -> From: Ken
-> > ->
-> > -> > In general any significant time in this region destroys the psru
and it
-> > -> > can do so in minutes. The forces can multiply to several orders of
-> > -> > magnitude higher than the engine could ever deliver. Think opera
-> > singer
-> > -> > shattering the wine glass. No psru is immune to destruction if
operated
-> > -> > in the resonant range. If they are aware of the issue, most folks
use a
-> > -> > light prop and idle their psru above typically 1200 to 2000 rpm to
-> > -> > attempt to stay away from the first destructive region. It seems
that
-> > -> > some units are OK above above 1000 rpm. A heavy flywheel
usually
-> > also
-> > -> > helps. My slightly soft Marcotte (small amount of rubber coupling)
-> > -> > seems happiest if I avoid below about 1700 which is effortless
except
-> > -> > during warmup. Ross (google sdsefi) idles his above 2000.
Torsional
-> > -> > resonance is the big risk with an uncertified engine/prop. Most of

us
-> > -> > just don't have access to torsional testing equipment although
some
-> > -> > estimates can be calculated if the effort is put in to measure
-> > -> > components. Sadly the safest thing for most of us is still to use
an
-> > -> > engine/psru/prop combination that has been successfully
operated by
-> > -> > others for a significant time which probably means the next
harmonic
-> > was
-> > -> > avoided. A soft element in the drive will reduce the magnitude of
the
-> > -> > forces but mostly they are used to attempt to tune the resonant
-> > -> > frequencies out of the normal operating rpm range. As I indicated
-> > -> > previously there are also assembly issues with the Ross psru that
must
-> > -> > be addressed. Scary stuff but aircraft engines don't do much
better;
-> > -> > even when pampered (and fed with a highly leaded diet) they
still fail,
-> > -> > just for different reasons IMO.
-> > -> >
-> > -> > http://www.epi-eng.com/BAS-TorVibInt.htm
-> > -> > http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?
t=19030
-> > -> >
-> > -> > Ken
-> > -> >
-> > -> > Drew Dalgleish wrote:
-> > -> >
-> > -> > >At 01:28 PM 9/25/2007 +0000, you wrote:
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >>I am thinking about buying a used Rebel with a Subaru
engine and
-> > a Ross
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >drive.
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >>I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on the what to watch
out for
-> > and any
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >personal experiences.
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >>The owner discussed a problem related to "sympathetic
vibrations"
-> > causing
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >chattering in the Ross drive at prop rpm's below 1000. Has
anyone
-> > else
-> > -> > >experienced this?
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >>Thanks,
-> > -> > >>Mike
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >Hi Mike I don't have any experience with ross or subaru ( other
than
-> > my
-> > -> > >car ) but 1000 prop RPM is slow enough that unless you're
-> > considering
-> > -> > >putting the plane on floats you could always avoid the harmonic
-> > range.
-> > -> > >Drew
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > -> > List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > -> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > -> > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > -> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > -> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > -> List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > -> username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > -> Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > -> List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > -> ---------------------------------
-> > -> Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone
who
-> > knows.
-> > -> Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
->
->




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[Jim Cole]

They have left the buildings that they had taken over at the Collingwood
airport. It was about 2 years ago that they took over a number of buildings
in Collingwood that resulted in the Collingwood Classics but evicted - they
moved to Edenvale - and the town building a new building for general
aviation.

Jim
Rebel 333


On 10/2/2007 8:38 PM, "Brian" <Northernliving@sc.rr.com> wrote:

I'm wondering where you heard that cross flow was gone. I've dialoged with
them as recently as yesterday, and they appear to be alive and well.

Am I missing something?

http://www.crossflow.com/

Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
ray.mason@dcsol.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 10:27 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [Subaru/Ross Aero Drive

Crossflow is definitely gone. Not many have lasted and all have had some
sort of problems. Eggenfeller has done about the best and Maxwell is just
getting back to shipping product after the NSI fiasco.

Murphy does not support any automotive engines.

Ray

On 10/1/2007 2:48 PM, jcole@rangroup.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I think someone may have mentioned Crossflow last week - one of my
hangar
-> mates was in Collingwood on Sunday and according to the airport - they
have
-> gone out of business. I don't know anything else.
->
-> Jim
-> Rebel 333
->
->
-> On 10/1/2007 8:26 PM, "ray.mason@dcsol.com"
<ray.mason@dcsol.com> wrote:
->
-> > For those looking at a subie, Maxwell Propulsion
-> > http://www.maxwellpropulsion.com has almost or just finished testing
all
-> > the components for their EJ25 FWF. I have seen the PSRU and it does
look
-> > good. I believe it is the only one out there that is designed by an
-> > aeronautical engineer.
-> >
-> > Ray
-> >
-> >
-> > On 9/26/2007 2:11 PM, im_planecrazy@yahoo.com wrote to rebel-
builders:
-> >
-> > -> I purchased a damaged Rebel that has a Formula Power Sub engine
that
-> > uses the Ross PRSU. I have not run the engine as I had originally
intended
-> > to rebuild the plane. I talked to the gentleman that built this Rebel
and
he
-> > relayed that he had ZERO problems with the engine or the redrive. It
had
-> > 303 hours on it when I purchased it from the insurance sale. I am
thinkling
-> > of selling it though since I highly doubt I will ever have the time to
rebuild
-> > it.
-> > ->
-> > -> Keith R661
-> > ->
-> > -> mdb1225@comcast.net wrote:
-> > -> Ken,
-> > ->
-> > -> EPI makes a strong case for not using a subaru engine.
-> > ->
-> > -> The Vans forum comments run 50/50.
-> > ->
-> > -> What does Murphy Air have to say about this?
-> > ->
-> > -> Mike
-> > ->
-> > -> -------------- Original message --------------
-> > -> From: Ken
-> > ->
-> > -> > In general any significant time in this region destroys the psru
and it
-> > -> > can do so in minutes. The forces can multiply to several orders of
-> > -> > magnitude higher than the engine could ever deliver. Think opera
-> > singer
-> > -> > shattering the wine glass. No psru is immune to destruction if
operated
-> > -> > in the resonant range. If they are aware of the issue, most folks
use a
-> > -> > light prop and idle their psru above typically 1200 to 2000 rpm to
-> > -> > attempt to stay away from the first destructive region. It seems
that
-> > -> > some units are OK above above 1000 rpm. A heavy flywheel
usually
-> > also
-> > -> > helps. My slightly soft Marcotte (small amount of rubber coupling)
-> > -> > seems happiest if I avoid below about 1700 which is effortless
except
-> > -> > during warmup. Ross (google sdsefi) idles his above 2000.
Torsional
-> > -> > resonance is the big risk with an uncertified engine/prop. Most of

us
-> > -> > just don't have access to torsional testing equipment although
some
-> > -> > estimates can be calculated if the effort is put in to measure
-> > -> > components. Sadly the safest thing for most of us is still to use
an
-> > -> > engine/psru/prop combination that has been successfully
operated by
-> > -> > others for a significant time which probably means the next
harmonic
-> > was
-> > -> > avoided. A soft element in the drive will reduce the magnitude of
the
-> > -> > forces but mostly they are used to attempt to tune the resonant
-> > -> > frequencies out of the normal operating rpm range. As I indicated
-> > -> > previously there are also assembly issues with the Ross psru that
must
-> > -> > be addressed. Scary stuff but aircraft engines don't do much
better;
-> > -> > even when pampered (and fed with a highly leaded diet) they
still fail,
-> > -> > just for different reasons IMO.
-> > -> >
-> > -> > http://www.epi-eng.com/BAS-TorVibInt.htm
-> > -> > http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?
t=19030
-> > -> >
-> > -> > Ken
-> > -> >
-> > -> > Drew Dalgleish wrote:
-> > -> >
-> > -> > >At 01:28 PM 9/25/2007 +0000, you wrote:
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >>I am thinking about buying a used Rebel with a Subaru
engine and
-> > a Ross
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >drive.
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >>I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on the what to watch
out for
-> > and any
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >personal experiences.
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >>The owner discussed a problem related to "sympathetic
vibrations"
-> > causing
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >chattering in the Ross drive at prop rpm's below 1000. Has
anyone
-> > else
-> > -> > >experienced this?
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >>Thanks,
-> > -> > >>Mike
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >>
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >Hi Mike I don't have any experience with ross or subaru ( other
than
-> > my
-> > -> > >car ) but 1000 prop RPM is slow enough that unless you're
-> > considering
-> > -> > >putting the plane on floats you could always avoid the harmonic
-> > range.
-> > -> > >Drew
-> > -> > >
-> > -> > >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > -> > List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > -> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > -> > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > -> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > -> >
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > -> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > -> List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > -> username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > -> Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > -> List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -> -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > -> ---------------------------------
-> > -> Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone
who
-> > knows.
-> > -> Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
->
->




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[Drew Dalgleish]

At 09:58 PM 10/2/2007 -0400, you wrote:

They have left the buildings that they had taken over at the Collingwood
airport. It was about 2 years ago that they took over a number of buildings
in Collingwood that resulted in the Collingwood Classics but evicted - they
moved to Edenvale - and the town building a new building for general
aviation.

Jim
Rebel 333


On 10/2/2007 8:38 PM, "Brian" <Northernliving@sc.rr.com> wrote:

I'm wondering where you heard that cross flow was gone. I've dialoged with
them as recently as yesterday, and they appear to be alive and well.

Am I missing something?

http://www.crossflow.com/

Brian

When they're asking $26G for a 180 hp engine and lycoming clones are priced
under 20 I don't think they'll be alive very long.
Drew



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[Keith Leitch]

I agree with Drew. Most people looking for an alternative engine are wanting to save money. If these engines were priced 50-75% of a similar Lycoming they would sell much better. I have been researching these engines also and I am either going Lyc or Rotax.

Keith

Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca> wrote:
At 09:58 PM 10/2/2007 -0400, you wrote:

They have left the buildings that they had taken over at the Collingwood
airport. It was about 2 years ago that they took over a number of buildings
in Collingwood that resulted in the Collingwood Classics but evicted - they
moved to Edenvale - and the town building a new building for general
aviation.

Jim
Rebel 333


On 10/2/2007 8:38 PM, "Brian" wrote:

I'm wondering where you heard that cross flow was gone. I've dialoged with
them as recently as yesterday, and they appear to be alive and well.

Am I missing something?

http://www.crossflow.com/

Brian

When they're asking $26G for a 180 hp engine and lycoming clones are priced
under 20 I don't think they'll be alive very long.
Drew



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---------------------------------
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[ray.mason]

Well maybe crossflow is back in business. Their website has been updated
since the last time I looked. The info I got from some Yahoo forums is that
they had closed. So far I do not think they have one of their engines flying
and have a long list of unhappy customers. It very much buyer beware with
them.

Ray

On 10/3/2007 3:29 AM, im_planecrazy@yahoo.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> I agree with Drew. Most people looking for an alternative engine are
wanting to save money. If these engines were priced 50-75% of a similar
Lycoming they would sell much better. I have been researching these
engines also and I am either going Lyc or Rotax.
->
-> Keith
->
-> Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca> wrote:
-> At 09:58 PM 10/2/2007 -0400, you wrote:
-> >They have left the buildings that they had taken over at the Collingwood
-> >airport. It was about 2 years ago that they took over a number of
buildings
-> >in Collingwood that resulted in the Collingwood Classics but evicted -
they
-> >moved to Edenvale - and the town building a new building for general
-> >aviation.
-> >
-> >Jim
-> >Rebel 333
-> >
-> >
-> >On 10/2/2007 8:38 PM, "Brian" wrote:
-> >
-> >> I'm wondering where you heard that cross flow was gone. I've
dialoged with
-> >> them as recently as yesterday, and they appear to be alive and well.
-> >>
-> >> Am I missing something?
-> >>
-> >> http://www.crossflow.com/
-> >>
-> >> Brian
->
-> When they're asking $26G for a 180 hp engine and lycoming clones are
priced
-> under 20 I don't think they'll be alive very long.
-> Drew
->
->
->
-> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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-> -----------------------------------------------------------------
->
->
->
->
->
->
-> ---------------------------------
-> Got a little couch potato?
-> Check out fun summer activities for kids.




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