Rebel engine choices - diesel

[N.Smith]

Hi Jesse

Yep...still planning on the 4 cylinder 160hp diesel when it's available. The
3 cylinder 120 hp is shipping now, and the first Elite in the UK will
hopefully be flying in a few months behind one of these. He will use the 2
blade MT vp prop with it. He's on the frappr map !

They are hoping to get certification for the 120 hp engine later this year,
and that has delayed mine another 6 months, but since I haven't finished the
wings yet it's not a big deal yet.

www.wilksch.com

There is already a mount designed for both the 120 and 160 engines for
Rebels and Elites

Officially it's Jet A1 only, but should be fine on road diesel, probably
home central heating oil as well :-)

Nig


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: 21 January 2006 17:17
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel engine choices


Hey Nigel,
Maybe you could give us an update on your engine installation. If I remember
correctly you are using a new diesel engine design right?
Thanks
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel engine choices
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:59:28 -0500

Sounds reasonable to me except I'd amend the last line to a LOT heavier
(as in 100 lbs more) and NOT cheaper if you want a reliable installation
worthy of being on a Rebel. "Reliable" probably precludes anything over
100 real or imaginary hp. A significant percentage of the problems with
engine conversions seem to stem directly from mods attempting to get
more hp. When one doesn't care about low end torque (driveability) you
can usually do a few things to get a bit higher peak power at high rpm
but then there is the question of durability. Internal engine forces
tend to be related to the rpm squared.

Ken

bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Bob, John, any others on this one...
Yep I'm not surprised at your answer. The ramengines numbers do sound

too

good to be true. Still, I have heard of people running EA81s in

Rebels and

there seems to be a lot of EA81 conversion experience out there in

general.

I'll assume that if done well it could compare with a 912S, perhaps

put out a

bit more power, a bit heavier, a lot cheaper, and a lot more tinkering

to make

it go reliably.
-Ben

Hi Ben !

Here we go again !! The EA-81 is a great little engine -
about 80 hp. in the car. These guys claim 140 hp - that makes
them about 75 % smarter than the Japanese automotive engineers !
If you believe that, you might also believe their claim that
the whole engine installation will weigh less than about 240++ lb...

Don't know the company, and not knocking them specifically,
but several people have tried to squeeze more out of EA-81's.
I think Frank is still flying happily with his <STOCK> EA-81 Rebel,
but total weights would make LSA a real stretch !

Generally, for just a few pounds more, you are better off
with an EJ-22 or EJ-25 - a lot more power --- but not LSA !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 20 January 2006 12:30 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

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[John Kramer]

The diesel that has captured my attention; and hopes that it becomes
available when I need it.

Anybody know more than they tell on the website?

http://www.zoche.de/

John...


At 03:37 PM 01/21/06, you wrote:

Hi Jesse

Yep...still planning on the 4 cylinder 160hp diesel when it's available. The
3 cylinder 120 hp is shipping now, and the first Elite in the UK will
hopefully be flying in a few months behind one of these. He will use the 2
blade MT vp prop with it. He's on the frappr map !

They are hoping to get certification for the 120 hp engine later this year,
and that has delayed mine another 6 months, but since I haven't finished the
wings yet it's not a big deal yet.

www.wilksch.com

There is already a mount designed for both the 120 and 160 engines for
Rebels and Elites

Officially it's Jet A1 only, but should be fine on road diesel, probably
home central heating oil as well :-)

Nig


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: 21 January 2006 17:17
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel engine choices


Hey Nigel,
Maybe you could give us an update on your engine installation. If I remember
correctly you are using a new diesel engine design right?
Thanks
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel engine choices
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:59:28 -0500

Sounds reasonable to me except I'd amend the last line to a LOT heavier
(as in 100 lbs more) and NOT cheaper if you want a reliable installation
worthy of being on a Rebel. "Reliable" probably precludes anything over
100 real or imaginary hp. A significant percentage of the problems with
engine conversions seem to stem directly from mods attempting to get
more hp. When one doesn't care about low end torque (driveability) you
can usually do a few things to get a bit higher peak power at high rpm
but then there is the question of durability. Internal engine forces
tend to be related to the rpm squared.

Ken

bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Bob, John, any others on this one...
Yep I'm not surprised at your answer. The ramengines numbers do sound

too

good to be true. Still, I have heard of people running EA81s in

Rebels and

there seems to be a lot of EA81 conversion experience out there in

general.

I'll assume that if done well it could compare with a 912S, perhaps

put out a

bit more power, a bit heavier, a lot cheaper, and a lot more tinkering

to make

it go reliably.
-Ben

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi John !

Don't hold your breath on that one ! :-) LOL !! At least
one aircraft designer built a kit specifically to use that engine
- and lost his shirt because it never appeared !

Zoche have been coming to Oshkosh for at least 10 years, by my
memory.... The engines look nice, the specs are impressive,
they have a nice booth, with everybody in colourful uniforms,
but NOBODY has ever seen one even RUN !! There's always someone
at a show who swears his friend's cousin's neighbour's barber was
there when it was fired up ..... ;-)

NOBODY in the aviation business can figure out what their angle
is ! They won't take deposits, and won't give a delivery date .....
say they are waiting until it is certified ...

Best to keep looking !! If it ever DOES appear, it could be great !

At least the WAM is real ..... but at about 280 lb installed weight,
for 120 hp., and about $24,000 CAD + shipping & crating from Britain,
it's out of the running for LSA on 2 counts ! :-(

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 21 January 2006 04:48 pm, John Kramer wrote:

The diesel that has captured my attention; and hopes that it becomes
available when I need it.

Anybody know more than they tell on the website?

http://www.zoche.de/

John...

At 03:37 PM 01/21/06, you wrote:

Hi Jesse

Yep...still planning on the 4 cylinder 160hp diesel when it's available.
The 3 cylinder 120 hp is shipping now, and the first Elite in the UK
will hopefully be flying in a few months behind one of these. He will
use the 2 blade MT vp prop with it. He's on the frappr map !

They are hoping to get certification for the 120 hp engine later this
year, and that has delayed mine another 6 months, but since I haven't
finished the wings yet it's not a big deal yet.

www.wilksch.com

There is already a mount designed for both the 120 and 160 engines for
Rebels and Elites

Officially it's Jet A1 only, but should be fine on road diesel, probably
home central heating oil as well :-)

Nig

======================== SNIP ! =================================



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[Jesse Jenks]

Thanks Nig,
It looks pretty cool! I'll be interested to hear more when you get it.
Jesse

From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: Rebel engine choices - diesel
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 21:37:37 -0000

Hi Jesse

Yep...still planning on the 4 cylinder 160hp diesel when it's available.
The
3 cylinder 120 hp is shipping now, and the first Elite in the UK will
hopefully be flying in a few months behind one of these. He will use the 2
blade MT vp prop with it. He's on the frappr map !

They are hoping to get certification for the 120 hp engine later this year,
and that has delayed mine another 6 months, but since I haven't finished
the
wings yet it's not a big deal yet.

www.wilksch.com

There is already a mount designed for both the 120 and 160 engines for
Rebels and Elites

Officially it's Jet A1 only, but should be fine on road diesel, probably
home central heating oil as well :-)

Nig


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: 21 January 2006 17:17
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel engine choices


Hey Nigel,
Maybe you could give us an update on your engine installation. If I
remember
correctly you are using a new diesel engine design right?
Thanks
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel engine choices
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:59:28 -0500

Sounds reasonable to me except I'd amend the last line to a LOT heavier
(as in 100 lbs more) and NOT cheaper if you want a reliable installation
worthy of being on a Rebel. "Reliable" probably precludes anything over
100 real or imaginary hp. A significant percentage of the problems with
engine conversions seem to stem directly from mods attempting to get
more hp. When one doesn't care about low end torque (driveability) you
can usually do a few things to get a bit higher peak power at high rpm
but then there is the question of durability. Internal engine forces
tend to be related to the rpm squared.

Ken

bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Bob, John, any others on this one...
Yep I'm not surprised at your answer. The ramengines numbers do sound

too

good to be true. Still, I have heard of people running EA81s in

Rebels and

there seems to be a lot of EA81 conversion experience out there in

general.

I'll assume that if done well it could compare with a 912S, perhaps

put out a

bit more power, a bit heavier, a lot cheaper, and a lot more tinkering

to make

it go reliably.
-Ben

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[John Kramer]

Thanks Bob,

I don't have any unrealistic expectations, just a few pipe dreams.

I'll keep an eye on Zoche and a couple of other options and when I
have to make a decision about what motor will hang on my firewall;
I'll decide on a 912s or maybe ???.

If I wasn't building light I'd give serious consideration to the Wilksch.

185 lbs for 150hp on french fry grease; cool. I can fantasize can't I?

John...


At 06:37 PM 01/21/06, you wrote:

Hi John !

Don't hold your breath on that one ! :-) LOL !! At least
one aircraft designer built a kit specifically to use that engine
- and lost his shirt because it never appeared !

Zoche have been coming to Oshkosh for at least 10 years, by my
memory.... The engines look nice, the specs are impressive,
they have a nice booth, with everybody in colourful uniforms,
but NOBODY has ever seen one even RUN !! There's always someone
at a show who swears his friend's cousin's neighbour's barber was
there when it was fired up ..... ;-)

NOBODY in the aviation business can figure out what their angle
is ! They won't take deposits, and won't give a delivery date .....
say they are waiting until it is certified ...

Best to keep looking !! If it ever DOES appear, it could be great !

At least the WAM is real ..... but at about 280 lb installed weight,
for 120 hp., and about $24,000 CAD + shipping & crating from Britain,
it's out of the running for LSA on 2 counts ! :-(

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 21 January 2006 04:48 pm, John Kramer wrote:

The diesel that has captured my attention; and hopes that it becomes
available when I need it.

Anybody know more than they tell on the website?

http://www.zoche.de/

John...

At 03:37 PM 01/21/06, you wrote:

Hi Jesse

Yep...still planning on the 4 cylinder 160hp diesel when it's available.
The 3 cylinder 120 hp is shipping now, and the first Elite in the UK
will hopefully be flying in a few months behind one of these. He will
use the 2 blade MT vp prop with it. He's on the frappr map !

They are hoping to get certification for the 120 hp engine later this
year, and that has delayed mine another 6 months, but since I haven't
finished the wings yet it's not a big deal yet.

www.wilksch.com

There is already a mount designed for both the 120 and 160 engines for
Rebels and Elites

Officially it's Jet A1 only, but should be fine on road diesel, probably
home central heating oil as well :-)

Nig

======================== SNIP ! =================================



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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fly too low or too slow and the ground will rise up and smite thee.





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[Bob Patterson]

Hi John !

The "WAM" I mentioned below IS the Wilksch - the weight & prices
came from their web site: www.wilksch.com You're right,
if it weren't for the weight considerations, it has possibilities.
The Delta Hawk is another diesel that we're watching for our
glider towplanes .... again, too much weight for LSA, though.

As for the 185 lb/150 hp. ..... I don't think YOU'RE the
one fantasizing !! ;-)

Keep searching, keep smiling, and KEEP RIVETTING ! :-)

It will all be worth it ! ;-)
......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 21 January 2006 11:10 pm, John Kramer wrote:

Thanks Bob,

I don't have any unrealistic expectations, just a few pipe dreams.

I'll keep an eye on Zoche and a couple of other options and when I
have to make a decision about what motor will hang on my firewall;
I'll decide on a 912s or maybe ???.

If I wasn't building light I'd give serious consideration to the Wilksch.

185 lbs for 150hp on french fry grease; cool. I can fantasize can't I?

John...

At 06:37 PM 01/21/06, you wrote:

Hi John !

Don't hold your breath on that one ! :-) LOL !! At least
one aircraft designer built a kit specifically to use that engine
- and lost his shirt because it never appeared !

Zoche have been coming to Oshkosh for at least 10 years, by my
memory.... The engines look nice, the specs are impressive,
they have a nice booth, with everybody in colourful uniforms,
but NOBODY has ever seen one even RUN !! There's always someone
at a show who swears his friend's cousin's neighbour's barber was
there when it was fired up ..... ;-)

NOBODY in the aviation business can figure out what their angle
is ! They won't take deposits, and won't give a delivery date .....
say they are waiting until it is certified ...

Best to keep looking !! If it ever DOES appear, it could be great
!

At least the WAM is real ..... but at about 280 lb installed
weight, for 120 hp., and about $24,000 CAD + shipping & crating from
Britain, it's out of the running for LSA on 2 counts ! :-(

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Saturday 21 January 2006 04:48 pm, John Kramer wrote:

The diesel that has captured my attention; and hopes that it becomes
available when I need it.

Anybody know more than they tell on the website?

http://www.zoche.de/

John...

At 03:37 PM 01/21/06, you wrote:

======================== SNIP ! =================================



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[Ken]

In 1997 folks told me that the Zoche would never fly and 9 years later I
think they were right!

Someone recently said the DeltaHawk was in production and several dozen
have been delivered??? That's going to be a winner I think.

That WAM-160 sure is intriguing for a Rebel or Elite ;) Complete with 5
hours of fuel, it should not be any heavier than a Lycoming with 5 hours
of fuel. A lot of money for either of these though when you consider
that you are tied to the fortunes of one company with no secondary
source of parts... That is why an automotive based diesel sounded
attractive but that one (Thielert??) also has sky high pricing.

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi John !

The "WAM" I mentioned below IS the Wilksch - the weight & prices
came from their web site: www.wilksch.com You're right,
if it weren't for the weight considerations, it has possibilities.
The Delta Hawk is another diesel that we're watching for our
glider towplanes .... again, too much weight for LSA, though.

As for the 185 lb/150 hp. ..... I don't think YOU'RE the
one fantasizing !! ;-)

Keep searching, keep smiling, and KEEP RIVETTING ! :-)

It will all be worth it ! ;-)
......bobp

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[N.Smith]

Hi Ken

I too looked at the Zoche - I love the idea of a radial - but you're right,
how much longer before it's ready.

The Thielert is already certified so that makes it a very expensive option.

The Wilksch WAM range will go up in price when they become certified, but at
the moment it's the cheapest 150hp diesel around over here.

I'll keep an eye on the Deltahawk - non over here at the moment as far as I
know.

Nig
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: 22 January 2006 15:00
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel engine choices - diesel


In 1997 folks told me that the Zoche would never fly and 9 years later I
think they were right!

Someone recently said the DeltaHawk was in production and several dozen
have been delivered??? That's going to be a winner I think.

That WAM-160 sure is intriguing for a Rebel or Elite ;) Complete with 5
hours of fuel, it should not be any heavier than a Lycoming with 5 hours
of fuel. A lot of money for either of these though when you consider
that you are tied to the fortunes of one company with no secondary
source of parts... That is why an automotive based diesel sounded
attractive but that one (Thielert??) also has sky high pricing.

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi John !

The "WAM" I mentioned below IS the Wilksch - the weight & prices
came from their web site: www.wilksch.com You're right,
if it weren't for the weight considerations, it has possibilities.
The Delta Hawk is another diesel that we're watching for our
glider towplanes .... again, too much weight for LSA, though.

As for the 185 lb/150 hp. ..... I don't think YOU'RE the
one fantasizing !! ;-)

Keep searching, keep smiling, and KEEP RIVETTING ! :-)

It will all be worth it ! ;-)
......bobp

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[Drew Dalgleish]

At 03:48 PM 1/21/2006 -0600, you wrote:

The diesel that has captured my attention; and hopes that it becomes
available when I need it.

Anybody know more than they tell on the website?

http://www.zoche.de/

John...

The origional vapourware engine. I don't think they've changed their
website since I was looking for an engine back in the last century.
Drew





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[Ken]

Hi Nig

There is a discussion on the need for flow-through venting of fuel tanks
with a diesel on the DeltaHawk FAQ page which caught my eye. Unlike
gasolene it seems they want to flow air through the tank with diesel
fuel. With gasolene we really only want enough air going in to replace
the gasolene being consumed so that the atmosphere in the tank stays too
rich to burn.

Ken

N.Smith wrote:

Hi Ken

I too looked at the Zoche - I love the idea of a radial - but you're right,
how much longer before it's ready.

The Thielert is already certified so that makes it a very expensive option.

The Wilksch WAM range will go up in price when they become certified, but at
the moment it's the cheapest 150hp diesel around over here.

I'll keep an eye on the Deltahawk - non over here at the moment as far as I
know.

Nig
745E

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[Rick Harper]

G'day from OZ everyone !

I just thought I'd put my 2

[N.Smith]

G'day Bruce !

Glad you like it too...he gives a good talk, and did he have the slideshow
with the cutaways and ships engine photo's ?

Nig
745E
-2c outside this morning !

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Rick Harper
Sent: 23 January 2006 08:27
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel engine choices - diesel


G'day from OZ everyone !

I just thought I'd put my 2

[Rick Harper]

Yep !
----- Original Message -----
From: N.Smith
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 7:54 PM
Subject: RE: Rebel engine choices - diesel


G'day Bruce !

Glad you like it too...he gives a good talk, and did he have the slideshow
with the cutaways and ships engine photo's ?

Nig
745E
-2c outside this morning !

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Rick Harper
Sent: 23 January 2006 08:27
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel engine choices - diesel


G'day from OZ everyone !

I just thought I'd put my 2

[cosmedi]

Sorry Rick(mate) to pour cold water on your enthusiasm, but there is no such thing as a free lunch. Look more carefully at Mark Wilsch's specification sheet that he handed out. WAM 120 engine approximately $Aus32000; then add on the firewall forward mounting kit, say $Aus15,000, then you must use the variable speed MT prop, say $Aus8500. I could purchase a brand new Lyco clone for a lot less dollars. The price may be viable in Europe because of the different pricing of JetA1 against Avgas, but not here in Oz.
Now to give you the double hit!!!! You forgot to mention that for all major servicing and overhauls you must send the engine back to England!!!! So you better buy two engines; keep one as a spare!!.
Now listen here mate, you only have about thirty years of flying left in you, so just keep your old IO320 going.

Regards,
Greg. Elite 724.




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