Can I do my own annuals?

[pequeajim]

In doing some additional reading, it looks like I will not qualify for doing
my own annuals on the Rebel that I am buying. Since the airplane is about 80-
90% completed, I can not qualify for doing the "majority" of the work?

This is a bummer. For you Rebel owners in the states, are any of you having
an AP do your annuals and if so, how much does this typically cost?

Jim!



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

You've never lied in your life before I bet either Jim !! LOL So the garage
looks different in the building pictures...you moved..case closed.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <pequeajim@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 12:44 PM
Subject: Can I do my own annuals?

In doing some additional reading, it looks like I will not qualify for

doing

my own annuals on the Rebel that I am buying. Since the airplane is about

80-

90% completed, I can not qualify for doing the "majority" of the work?

This is a bummer. For you Rebel owners in the states, are any of you

having

an AP do your annuals and if so, how much does this typically cost?

Jim!



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[Mike Kimball]

If you are in the US: At least the Annual is the only thing you can't
legally do. You can do any and all maintenance. It's just the condition
inspection that you can't do. Also, the A&P that does your annual condition
inspection does not have to have Inspection Authority (IA) as I understand
it. And don't forget, if there are any discrepancies found during the
inspection, you don't have to let the licensed mechanic fix it. You can fix
it yourself and then get it re-inspected. Form a relationship with a local
A&P and keep it maintained and you will probably end up with very
inexpensive annuals.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 12:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Can I do my own annuals?

You've never lied in your life before I bet either Jim !! LOL So the garage
looks different in the building pictures...you moved..case closed.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <pequeajim@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 12:44 PM
Subject: Can I do my own annuals?

In doing some additional reading, it looks like I will not qualify for

doing

my own annuals on the Rebel that I am buying. Since the airplane is about

80-

90% completed, I can not qualify for doing the "majority" of the work?

This is a bummer. For you Rebel owners in the states, are any of you

having

an AP do your annuals and if so, how much does this typically cost?

Jim!



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[Ralph Baker]

Jim,
The anwer is maybe. I am assuming you are in the USA. More than one person can participate in building however, only one person can be issued the Repairmans Certificate. It is mandatory that you have a builders log and picture documentation that the construction was done to the 51% rule up to the point you purchased it. A statement from the seller that he built it and no commercial help was involved would be part of the documentation. Receipts would also help.

There is some descretion on the part of the FAA and the DARs. I would start by looking for a sympathetic DAR and laying out the documentation and show him the plane with emphasis on what is still needed. Remember, the 51% rule is 51% of the tasks, not 51% of the rivets etc. There is a checklist of tasks available from the FAA that would form an outline to work from. Do the homework to convince the DAR that you did or will do enough of the tasks and try to get an agreement from the FAA that if the specified tasks are done it will be certificated. I would also contact the FAA regarding the Repairmans Certificate requirements.

I don't think you are dead in the water for the Repairmans Certificate but now is the time to decide if it is a deal breaker if you can't get it. I suggest you run this past the EAA certification folks before purchase or contacting a DAR or the FAA. Note this is based only understanding of the regs, your experience may vary.
Ralph Baker



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[Ted Waltman]

Ralph,

I know a number of builders who don't have any construction log nor any
pictures whatsoever...and they still got the plane signed off and their
repairman's certificate.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ralph Baker
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 12:33 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Can I do my own annuals?


Jim,
The anwer is maybe. I am assuming you are in the USA. More than one
person can participate in building however, only one person can be
issued the Repairmans Certificate. It is mandatory that you have a
builders log and picture documentation that the construction was done to
the 51% rule up to the point you purchased it. A statement from the
seller that he built it and no commercial help was involved would be
part of the documentation. Receipts would also help.

There is some descretion on the part of the FAA and the DARs. I would
start by looking for a sympathetic DAR and laying out the documentation
and show him the plane with emphasis on what is still needed. Remember,
the 51% rule is 51% of the tasks, not 51% of the rivets etc. There is a
checklist of tasks available from the FAA that would form an outline to
work from. Do the homework to convince the DAR that you did or will do
enough of the tasks and try to get an agreement from the FAA that if the
specified tasks are done it will be certificated. I would also contact
the FAA regarding the Repairmans Certificate requirements.

I don't think you are dead in the water for the Repairmans Certificate
but now is the time to decide if it is a deal breaker if you can't get
it. I suggest you run this past the EAA certification folks before
purchase or contacting a DAR or the FAA. Note this is based only
understanding of the regs, your experience may vary. Ralph Baker



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[Ron Shannon]

For those in the US, Kitplanes magazine, May 2005, p. 27, has a detailed
article on the maintenance options/requirements for all the different
LSA classifications, also comparing the traditional experimental amateur
built classifications, etc. It _is_ a little complex.


Ted Waltman wrote:

Ralph,

I know a number of builders who don't have any construction log nor any
pictures whatsoever...and they still got the plane signed off and their
repairman's certificate.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ralph Baker
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 12:33 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Can I do my own annuals?


Jim,
The anwer is maybe. I am assuming you are in the USA. More than one
person can participate in building however, only one person can be
issued the Repairmans Certificate. It is mandatory that you have a
builders log and picture documentation that the construction was done to
the 51% rule up to the point you purchased it. A statement from the
seller that he built it and no commercial help was involved would be
part of the documentation. Receipts would also help.

There is some descretion on the part of the FAA and the DARs. I would
start by looking for a sympathetic DAR and laying out the documentation
and show him the plane with emphasis on what is still needed. Remember,
the 51% rule is 51% of the tasks, not 51% of the rivets etc. There is a
checklist of tasks available from the FAA that would form an outline to
work from. Do the homework to convince the DAR that you did or will do
enough of the tasks and try to get an agreement from the FAA that if the
specified tasks are done it will be certificated. I would also contact
the FAA regarding the Repairmans Certificate requirements.

I don't think you are dead in the water for the Repairmans Certificate
but now is the time to decide if it is a deal breaker if you can't get
it. I suggest you run this past the EAA certification folks before
purchase or contacting a DAR or the FAA. Note this is based only
understanding of the regs, your experience may vary. Ralph Baker



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[pequeajim]

<< grin >>

On 11/4/2005 12:03 PM, oifa@irishfield.on.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

-> You've never lied in your life before I bet either Jim !! LOL So the garage
-> looks different in the building pictures...you moved..case closed.
->
-> Wayne
->
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: <pequeajim@dcsol.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 12:44 PM
-> Subject: Can I do my own annuals?
->
->
-> > In doing some additional reading, it looks like I will not qualify for
-> doing
-> > my own annuals on the Rebel that I am buying. Since the airplane is
about
-> 80-
-> > 90% completed, I can not qualify for doing the "majority" of the work?
-> >
-> > This is a bummer. For you Rebel owners in the states, are any of you
-> having
-> > an AP do your annuals and if so, how much does this typically cost?
-> >
-> > Jim!
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Subscription services located at:
-> > https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
->
->





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[pequeajim]

Thanks Ralph:

I have an EAA meeting in two weeks and am going to bring it up there. Even
though the builder states 85-90% complete, there is a LOT of work yet to do.
I also will probably redo a couple of items in order to install some of the
mods that are talked about on this site. That will also increase my time on
the aircraft.

Good advice, thanks.

Jim!

On 11/4/2005 10:32 AM, rebaker@sc.rr.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> Jim,
-> The anwer is maybe. I am assuming you are in the USA. More than one
person can participate in building however, only one person can be issued the
Repairmans Certificate. It is mandatory that you have a builders log and
picture documentation that the construction was done to the 51% rule up to
the point you purchased it. A statement from the seller that he built it and
no commercial help was involved would be part of the documentation. Receipts
would also help.
->
-> There is some descretion on the part of the FAA and the DARs. I would
start by looking for a sympathetic DAR and laying out the documentation and
show him the plane with emphasis on what is still needed. Remember, the 51%
rule is 51% of the tasks, not 51% of the rivets etc. There is a checklist of
tasks available from the FAA that would form an outline to work from. Do the
homework to convince the DAR that you did or will do enough of the tasks and
try to get an agreement from the FAA that if the specified tasks are done it
will be certificated. I would also contact the FAA regarding the Repairmans
Certificate requirements.
->
-> I don't think you are dead in the water for the Repairmans Certificate but
now is the time to decide if it is a deal breaker if you can't get it. I
suggest you run this past the EAA certification folks before purchase or
contacting a DAR or the FAA. Note this is based only understanding of the
regs, your experience may vary.
-> Ralph Baker





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[John Kramer]

Ralph,

In your experience or reading of the rules: Since the Rebel is an
"approved" 51% kit does it make any difference in the level of proof
required for certification?

John...

At 01:32 PM 11/04/05, you wrote:

Jim,
The anwer is maybe. I am assuming you are in the USA. More than
one person can participate in building however, only one person can
be issued the Repairmans Certificate. It is mandatory that you have
a builders log and picture documentation that the construction was
done to the 51% rule up to the point you purchased it. A statement
from the seller that he built it and no commercial help was involved
would be part of the documentation. Receipts would also help.

There is some descretion on the part of the FAA and the DARs. I
would start by looking for a sympathetic DAR and laying out the
documentation and show him the plane with emphasis on what is still
needed. Remember, the 51% rule is 51% of the tasks, not 51% of the
rivets etc. There is a checklist of tasks available from the FAA
that would form an outline to work from. Do the homework to
convince the DAR that you did or will do enough of the tasks and try
to get an agreement from the FAA that if the specified tasks are
done it will be certificated. I would also contact the FAA
regarding the Repairmans Certificate requirements.

I don't think you are dead in the water for the Repairmans
Certificate but now is the time to decide if it is a deal breaker if
you can't get it. I suggest you run this past the EAA certification
folks before purchase or contacting a DAR or the FAA. Note this is
based only understanding of the regs, your experience may vary.
Ralph Baker

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[Mike Davis]

One thing that might make this easier is don't register it as built from a
kit, instead register it as assembled from assorted parts and pieces, then
you can provide your own justification of the 51% that you accomplished, by
completing a worksheet to show that you have completed the majority of the
work.

Took a bit of looking since the FAA web site is totally different now than
when I did this last, but I found a copy of the worksheet, I've uploaded the
complete 8130.2F document to the archive site, the worksheet starts on page
241 of this document. The worksheet itself is FAA Form 8000-38 (12-91), but
I can't find that form by itself.

https://www.dcsol.com/file/area402/8130-2F.pdf Give it several minutes to
load following this link, it's a large document.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 10:32 AM
Subject: Can I do my own annuals?

Jim,
The anwer is maybe. I am assuming you are in the USA. More than one
person can participate in building however, only one person can be issued
the Repairmans Certificate. It is mandatory that you have a builders log
and picture documentation that the construction was done to the 51% rule
up to the point you purchased it. A statement from the seller that he
built it and no commercial help was involved would be part of the
documentation. Receipts would also help.

There is some descretion on the part of the FAA and the DARs. I would
start by looking for a sympathetic DAR and laying out the documentation
and show him the plane with emphasis on what is still needed. Remember,
the 51% rule is 51% of the tasks, not 51% of the rivets etc. There is a
checklist of tasks available from the FAA that would form an outline to
work from. Do the homework to convince the DAR that you did or will do
enough of the tasks and try to get an agreement from the FAA that if the
specified tasks are done it will be certificated. I would also contact
the FAA regarding the Repairmans Certificate requirements.

I don't think you are dead in the water for the Repairmans Certificate but
now is the time to decide if it is a deal breaker if you can't get it. I
suggest you run this past the EAA certification folks before purchase or
contacting a DAR or the FAA. Note this is based only understanding of
the regs, your experience may vary.
Ralph Baker



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[pequeajim]

THanks Mike. I really appreciate it.


On 11/4/2005 9:38 PM, mike.davis@dcsol.com wrote to rebel-builders:

-> One thing that might make this easier is don't register it as built from a
-> kit, instead register it as assembled from assorted parts and pieces, then
-> you can provide your own justification of the 51% that you accomplished,
by
-> completing a worksheet to show that you have completed the majority of the
-> work.
->
-> Took a bit of looking since the FAA web site is totally different now than
-> when I did this last, but I found a copy of the worksheet, I've uploaded
the
-> complete 8130.2F document to the archive site, the worksheet starts on
page
-> 241 of this document. The worksheet itself is FAA Form 8000-38 (12-91),
but
-> I can't find that form by itself.
->
-> https://www.dcsol.com/file/area402/8130-2F.pdf Give it several minutes to
-> load following this link, it's a large document.
->
-> Mike
->
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 10:32 AM
-> Subject: Can I do my own annuals?
->
->
-> > Jim,
-> > The anwer is maybe. I am assuming you are in the USA. More than one
-> > person can participate in building however, only one person can be
issued
-> > the Repairmans Certificate. It is mandatory that you have a builders
log
-> > and picture documentation that the construction was done to the 51% rule
-> > up to the point you purchased it. A statement from the seller that he
-> > built it and no commercial help was involved would be part of the
-> > documentation. Receipts would also help.
-> >
-> > There is some descretion on the part of the FAA and the DARs. I would
-> > start by looking for a sympathetic DAR and laying out the documentation
-> > and show him the plane with emphasis on what is still needed. Remember,
-> > the 51% rule is 51% of the tasks, not 51% of the rivets etc. There is a
-> > checklist of tasks available from the FAA that would form an outline to
-> > work from. Do the homework to convince the DAR that you did or will do
-> > enough of the tasks and try to get an agreement from the FAA that if the
-> > specified tasks are done it will be certificated. I would also contact
-> > the FAA regarding the Repairmans Certificate requirements.
-> >
-> > I don't think you are dead in the water for the Repairmans Certificate
but
-> > now is the time to decide if it is a deal breaker if you can't get it.
I
-> > suggest you run this past the EAA certification folks before purchase or
-> > contacting a DAR or the FAA. Note this is based only understanding of
-> > the regs, your experience may vary.
-> > Ralph Baker
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> > List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
-> > username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > Subscription services located at:
-> > https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
-> > List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-> >
-> >
-> >
->





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