DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

[Brent Blue]

Piotr:

I think it would be fair to say the Rebel manual is severely lacking in
many areas. There just tends to be things left out that are important and

a major lack of diagrams. Many options (e.g. ground handling option) will

come without a manual or any documentation what so ever.

Brent




[quote]----- Original Message -----
From: Piotr Ko

[Robert and Olga]

Piotr and Brent. Just to add my 2 cents worth on the Rebel manual. I built
Rebel "652" from the current manual at that time (May 1999) and had no
problems at all. I did not place one phone call to Murphy Aircraft for
clarification on anything except to get the correct bolt sizes for the
landing gear. If I had any doubts or questions, I found by reading ahead to
the related part solved the problem. I will admit one must possess a certain
amount of mechanical ability to even undertake such a comprehensive project.
Fortunately this great builders site will answer any of the problems that
can't be figured out on your own, so fear not and enjoy the project. Like it
has been said before: It is a rewarding experience. Bob J Rebel "652" -
Flying and loving it.




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[Legeorgen]

I to enjoyed the process of building the Rebel and had no real problems with
the manual that could not be solved with a phone call to MAM or this list. Of
course, you have to be dedicated and have a commitment to keep at it.

The first flight makes it all worth the effort and it just gets better after
that. It was all a challenge I sort of miss it, but nothing will take the
place of flying the 2 planes I have built from kits. And the Rebel is a great
flying and very well designed aircraft.

Bruce




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[Brent Blue MD]

Guys:

If you compare the Vans manuals to the Murphy manuals, you would see that
Murphy is pitiful. I wouldn't complain if Murphy didn't advertise itself
as being able to be built by someone who has never built an airplane before.

Without other builders and phone calls all the time to tech support at MAM,
it would be near impossible.

Heck, they don't even date the updates in the manual for gosh sakes!

BB

At 06:00 PM 9/2/2004, you wrote:

Digest of list: rebel-builders-d Total messages in digest: 3

1 Date : Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:45:41 -0400
From : rjohnson18@cogeco.ca
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

2 Date : Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:58:13 EDT
From : legeorgen@aol.com
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

3 Date : Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:03:36 -0700
From : jessejenks@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Rebel elevator reinforcement


---------- Digest Message #1 ----------
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:45:41 -0400
From: rjohnson18@cogeco.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

Piotr and Brent. Just to add my 2 cents worth on the Rebel manual. I built
Rebel "652" from the current manual at that time (May 1999) and had no
problems at all. I did not place one phone call to Murphy Aircraft for
clarification on anything except to get the correct bolt sizes for the
landing gear. If I had any doubts or questions, I found by reading ahead to
the related part solved the problem. I will admit one must possess a certain
amount of mechanical ability to even undertake such a comprehensive project.
Fortunately this great builders site will answer any of the problems that
can't be figured out on your own, so fear not and enjoy the project. Like it
has been said before: It is a rewarding experience. Bob J Rebel "652" -
Flying and loving it.


---------- Digest Message #2 ----------
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:58:13 EDT
From: legeorgen@aol.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

I to enjoyed the process of building the Rebel and had no real problems with
the manual that could not be solved with a phone call to MAM or this list. Of
course, you have to be dedicated and have a commitment to keep at it.

The first flight makes it all worth the effort and it just gets better after
that. It was all a challenge I sort of miss it, but nothing will take the
place of flying the 2 planes I have built from kits. And the Rebel is a great
flying and very well designed aircraft.

Bruce


---------- Digest Message #3 ----------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:03:36 -0700
From: jessejenks@hotmail.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Rebel elevator reinforcement

Thanks Wayne and Ken,
Yes, I guess it makes sense to order a piece of both .025 and .032.
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel elevator reinforcement
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 19:51:02 -0400

Hi Jesse
I find 0.032 better for brackets but 0.025 is a fine replacement for any
small 0.020 parts that you ummm need to remake ;) and such as Wayne says.
ie. since the stuff rolls up and shipping is probably the same you might
consider ordering more than one piece or perhaps a larger piece of
6061T6... Of course it could also just be that I am particularly gifted
at turning aluminum into scrap! Got 30 cents a lb. for scrap last time
but don't think I broke even...

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Yes...very handy for anywhere you make a hole in the .016 or .020

skins for

access/booboo/etc and need a doubler ring!

Wayne

a

handy

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[Walter Klatt]

I won't argue that the manual can't be improved, but I was a
first time builder, and it really wasn't an issue for me. Where
it fell short mostly was the finishing items, and by that time
you will have built up enough experience to figure things out for
yourself. You'll be talking to a lot of other builders anyway,
and with this list, and the factory support, you will have all
the help you need. To keep things in perspective, I spent almost
as long doing the firewall forward and my instrument panel as the
rest of the airframe. And I didn't start with a fast build
either.

And once you're flying, you'll look back and think how easy it
all was...

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Brent Blue MD
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 9:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d


Guys:

If you compare the Vans manuals to the Murphy manuals,
you would see that
Murphy is pitiful. I wouldn't complain if Murphy
didn't advertise itself
as being able to be built by someone who has never
built an airplane before.

Without other builders and phone calls all the time to
tech support at MAM,
it would be near impossible.

Heck, they don't even date the updates in the manual
for gosh sakes!

BB

At 06:00 PM 9/2/2004, you wrote:

Digest of list: rebel-builders-d Total messages in digest: 3

1 Date : Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:45:41 -0400
From : rjohnson18@cogeco.ca
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

2 Date : Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:58:13 EDT
From : legeorgen@aol.com
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

3 Date : Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:03:36 -0700
From : jessejenks@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Rebel elevator reinforcement


---------- Digest Message #1 ----------
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:45:41 -0400
From: rjohnson18@cogeco.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

Piotr and Brent. Just to add my 2 cents worth on the

Rebel manual. I built

Rebel "652" from the current manual at that time (May

1999) and had no

problems at all. I did not place one phone call to

Murphy Aircraft for

clarification on anything except to get the correct

bolt sizes for the

landing gear. If I had any doubts or questions, I

found by reading ahead to

the related part solved the problem. I will admit one

must possess a certain

amount of mechanical ability to even undertake such a

comprehensive project.

Fortunately this great builders site will answer any

of the problems that

can't be figured out on your own, so fear not and

enjoy the project. Like it

has been said before: It is a rewarding experience.

Bob J Rebel "652" -

Flying and loving it.


---------- Digest Message #2 ----------
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:58:13 EDT
From: legeorgen@aol.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

I to enjoyed the process of building the Rebel and

had no real problems with

the manual that could not be solved with a phone call

to MAM or this list. Of

course, you have to be dedicated and have a

commitment to keep at it.

The first flight makes it all worth the effort and it

just gets better after

that. It was all a challenge I sort of miss it, but

nothing will take the

place of flying the 2 planes I have built from kits.

And the Rebel is a great

flying and very well designed aircraft.

Bruce


---------- Digest Message #3 ----------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:03:36 -0700
From: jessejenks@hotmail.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Rebel elevator reinforcement

Thanks Wayne and Ken,
Yes, I guess it makes sense to order a piece of both

.025 and .032.

Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel elevator reinforcement
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 19:51:02 -0400

Hi Jesse
I find 0.032 better for brackets but 0.025 is a

fine replacement for any

small 0.020 parts that you ummm need to remake ;)

and such as Wayne says.

ie. since the stuff rolls up and shipping is

probably the same you might

consider ordering more than one piece or perhaps a

larger piece of

6061T6... Of course it could also just be that I am

particularly gifted

at turning aluminum into scrap! Got 30 cents a lb.

for scrap last time

but don't think I broke even...

Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

the .016 or .020

skins for

shipping, so maybe I will buy

a

sheet stock. Is this a

handy




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___________

Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news,

plus voter tools and

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[David Ricker]

Well, this is a hot button issue for a lot of people. The documenttion
package is not the same as Van's for sure. For us as builders of an
early Elite we have found a "few" things about the manual to be
"lacking" and we found that to get answers from support it is necessary
to send questions one at a time otherwise only one question is answered
per E-mail..... It is not the standard I expected and am used to
working to.

In the big picture though with this group you will find just about any
question has already been encountered so the support system is there, to
the good fortune of MAM........ In the end they seem to be pretty good
airplanes so the work along the way is worth it.

Cheers,

Dave



Walter Klatt wrote:

I won't argue that the manual can't be improved, but I was a
first time builder, and it really wasn't an issue for me. Where
it fell short mostly was the finishing items, and by that time
you will have built up enough experience to figure things out for
yourself. You'll be talking to a lot of other builders anyway,
and with this list, and the factory support, you will have all
the help you need. To keep things in perspective, I spent almost
as long doing the firewall forward and my instrument panel as the
rest of the airframe. And I didn't start with a fast build
either.

And once you're flying, you'll look back and think how easy it
all was...

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Brent Blue MD
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 9:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d


Guys:

If you compare the Vans manuals to the Murphy manuals,
you would see that
Murphy is pitiful. I wouldn't complain if Murphy
didn't advertise itself
as being able to be built by someone who has never
built an airplane before.

Without other builders and phone calls all the time to
tech support at MAM,
it would be near impossible.

Heck, they don't even date the updates in the manual
for gosh sakes!

BB

At 06:00 PM 9/2/2004, you wrote:

Digest of list: rebel-builders-d Total messages in digest: 3

1 Date : Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:45:41 -0400
From : rjohnson18@cogeco.ca
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

2 Date : Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:58:13 EDT
From : legeorgen@aol.com
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

3 Date : Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:03:36 -0700
From : jessejenks@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Rebel elevator reinforcement


---------- Digest Message #1 ----------
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:45:41 -0400
From: rjohnson18@cogeco.ca
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

Piotr and Brent. Just to add my 2 cents worth on the

Rebel manual. I built

Rebel "652" from the current manual at that time (May

1999) and had no

problems at all. I did not place one phone call to

Murphy Aircraft for

clarification on anything except to get the correct

bolt sizes for the

landing gear. If I had any doubts or questions, I

found by reading ahead to

the related part solved the problem. I will admit one

must possess a certain

amount of mechanical ability to even undertake such a

comprehensive project.

Fortunately this great builders site will answer any

of the problems that

can't be figured out on your own, so fear not and

enjoy the project. Like it

has been said before: It is a rewarding experience.

Bob J Rebel "652" -

Flying and loving it.


---------- Digest Message #2 ----------
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:58:13 EDT
From: legeorgen@aol.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

I to enjoyed the process of building the Rebel and

had no real problems with

the manual that could not be solved with a phone call

to MAM or this list. Of

course, you have to be dedicated and have a

commitment to keep at it.

The first flight makes it all worth the effort and it

just gets better after

that. It was all a challenge I sort of miss it, but

nothing will take the

place of flying the 2 planes I have built from kits.

And the Rebel is a great

flying and very well designed aircraft.

Bruce


---------- Digest Message #3 ----------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:03:36 -0700
From: jessejenks@hotmail.com
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: Rebel elevator reinforcement

Thanks Wayne and Ken,
Yes, I guess it makes sense to order a piece of both

.025 and .032.

Jesse

fine replacement for any

and such as Wayne says.

probably the same you might

larger piece of

particularly gifted

for scrap last time

the .016 or .020

shipping, so maybe I will buy

sheet stock. Is this a

[/quote]




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[Brent Blue]

Does anyone have a recommended source for Avex rivets in the US?

Thanks.

Brent



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[LisaFly99]

In a message dated 10/20/2004 10:12:09 AM Central Standard Time,
brentblue@wyoming.com writes:

Does anyone have a recommended source for Avex rivets in the US?



Aircraft Spruce. Or go to Google and serch Avex rivets, there are several
places.
PD Smith




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[Brent Blue]

Mike:

I use Rivnuts (keyed and with permanent Locktite) with stainless steel
machine screws on all the plates.

Brent


At 03:00 PM 1/24/2005 -0900, you wrote:

---------- Digest Message #1 ----------
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:42:48 -0600
From: mbetti@up.net
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Inspection covers

Thanks all for your input on tools and deburring. I was wondering, what
is the best option for those inspection covers. I have 3 to install on
stab and I can't see putting them in with just sheetmetal screws.
Mike Betti

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[Brent Blue]

I am out of the country from April 3 till April 25. I will probably not have reliable Email access. I will respond on my return. Thanks.



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[Gilles St-Pierre]

to All
has anybody compared Murphy s dooping wing tips to Fife Hoerner tips for
performance on an Elite on floats
thanks
gilles st pierre e717





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[bosdes]

There are no Fife tips for the Elite. Several of us have been trying to get Dave Fife to make them for us. He needs more encouragement. www.aircrafttips.com. Ted Hauri 577E

-------------- Original message from "Gilles St-Pierre" <ranchlaseigneurie@hotmail.com>: --------------

to All
has anybody compared Murphy s dooping wing tips to Fife Hoerner tips for
performance on an Elite on floats
thanks
gilles st pierre e717





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[bosdes]

Whoops, wrong again! Dave's email is aircrafttips@yahoo.com

-------------- Original message from bosdes@att.net (Ted Hauri): --------------


There are no Fife tips for the Elite. Several of us have been trying to get Dave Fife to make them for us. He needs more encouragement. www.aircrafttips.com. Ted Hauri 577E

-------------- Original message from "Gilles St-Pierre" <ranchlaseigneurie@hotmail.com>: --------------

to All
has anybody compared Murphy s dooping wing tips to Fife Hoerner tips for
performance on an Elite on floats
thanks
gilles st pierre e717





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[Bill Wagner]

I have been lurking on the digest list for months now, and I'm getting
ready to build the garage that I will eventually put the Moose kit into.

My problem: I live on a 25-foot wide lot here in Calgary, so the
biggest width I can go is about 23 feet. I gather the moose itself is
24-feet long overall when it's assembled, and of course you want to be
able to work around the thing.

The city will probably only let me build a garage that is 24 feet deep -
but these are outside dimensions.

My first question: can you build a moose in a space that is
approximately 22 feet wide by 23 feet deep? If so, will there be any
floor space left over for the air compressor, drill press, band saw, et
cetera?

One of the things I'm considering is putting in a "loft" above the main
garage floor. That would give me space to put the wings and other parts
while I work on the main fuselage. Would this be useful, or is it not
worth the thousands of dollars that I could otherwise be pouring into
the Moose? My current alternative is to put in a 12-foot ceiling
(instead of 10 feet) and hang the wings from the rafters. Bad idea?

I would appreciate any advice you people may have about this. I plan to
order the kit next summer, when finances permit, and take delivery as
soon as it's ready.

Does anyone think that the quickbuild/solid rivets is not the way to go
if you can afford to do it that way? 3000 hours seems like a long time
... and that's the advertized build time with the "slow build".

I like the idea of the M-14P engine, so it seems that I would be better
off spending the money on the quickbuild (built in Canada, not the
Phillipines!), and saving money on the engine. I heard that the M-14
can run on farm gas, which really makes the decision easier!

Thank-you in advance for you advice!


Bill in Calgary

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
rebel-builders-d digest
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 6:00 PM
To: rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com
Subject: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d



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[Mike Davis]

Hi Bill, I don't thing you'll have any trouble building in that space... of
course you'll have to take it out for final assembly. My shop's main space
is 30' x 40', but all winter I have 2 cars in there, so I end up with a work
space of about 30' x 15', and it's plenty for working on the individual
pieces. As far as hanging parts from the rafters, that shouldn't be a
problem as long as the rafters/trusses are designed for the load. The
trusses I used were designed only for sheet rock and insulation, so I
wouldn't do that myself, but it's easy enough to build them to support the
load.

As for a fast build being worth it... I suppose that's just a matter of
opinion. Personally, I want to drill/debur every hole, and pull every
rivet. It's all part of the experience for me. But I certainly don't have
anything against the fast build if that's the way you wanted to go.

Good luck with your shop.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Wagner" <WagnerB@mjss.ca>
To: <rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: DIGEST - rebel-builders-d

I have been lurking on the digest list for months now, and I'm getting
ready to build the garage that I will eventually put the Moose kit into.

My problem: I live on a 25-foot wide lot here in Calgary, so the
biggest width I can go is about 23 feet. I gather the moose itself is
24-feet long overall when it's assembled, and of course you want to be
able to work around the thing.

The city will probably only let me build a garage that is 24 feet deep -
but these are outside dimensions.

My first question: can you build a moose in a space that is
approximately 22 feet wide by 23 feet deep? If so, will there be any
floor space left over for the air compressor, drill press, band saw, et
cetera?

One of the things I'm considering is putting in a "loft" above the main
garage floor. That would give me space to put the wings and other parts
while I work on the main fuselage. Would this be useful, or is it not
worth the thousands of dollars that I could otherwise be pouring into
the Moose? My current alternative is to put in a 12-foot ceiling
(instead of 10 feet) and hang the wings from the rafters. Bad idea?

I would appreciate any advice you people may have about this. I plan to
order the kit next summer, when finances permit, and take delivery as
soon as it's ready.

Does anyone think that the quickbuild/solid rivets is not the way to go
if you can afford to do it that way? 3000 hours seems like a long time
... and that's the advertized build time with the "slow build".

I like the idea of the M-14P engine, so it seems that I would be better
off spending the money on the quickbuild (built in Canada, not the
Phillipines!), and saving money on the engine. I heard that the M-14
can run on farm gas, which really makes the decision easier!

Thank-you in advance for you advice!


Bill in Calgary

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