Fin Offset

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Richard, pulled your reply off the archives. I didn't receive as mail. Have you been officially subscribed to the list? Are you sending your mail to the list server instead of murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com) like you should be?

Anyhow, I forgot that the factory changed the tail spring retainer bolts to 1/4". This is so they can be used as rudder stops by putting a sleeve over them at the top. They do not actually hold any tail spring pressure, as the tail spring forces up on the fin post when on the ground. 3/16 bolts are definitely strong enough if installed properly as they only keep the tail spring from falling off in flight. Any shear load on these bolts from the stabs is minimal because both stab struts are usually pulling equally(actually pushing equally in positive flight) except maybe in a side slip, thus no shear load on these bolts. Keep in mind that the bolts holding the stab struts on are only 3/16 and these have compressive shear loads in positive flight and of course tension/shear loads during negative flight and no one has had one let go, KNOCK ON WOOD!

AS for the offset of the fin. 3/4 of an inch!!!!!! Do they want it to fly right hand circles all day without you!!!!!!! I offset my fin the original 1/2" (O-320 and Warp Drive) and I always need rudder in cruise to keep the ball centered and to keep flying straight. Don't need any rudder input on take off though. Both Howard Hanfords Rebel and the Rebel I just rebuilt (both O-320's and Aluminum Props) have no fin offset what so ever. They both need a little right rudder to keep the ball centered on takeoff, but both these aircraft will fly straight, hands and feet off for a hundred miles. I really prefer the rudder on takeoff and then its over with. If it were not for the necessity to make new fairings to cover the gap from the fin to stabs and the redoing of my dart style paint scheme on them, I would probably change mine to zero offset!!!!!

REBEL FLYERS, Richard has asked what everyone else thinks about fin offset, that are already flying. Lets hear the need for rudder pedal and how you mounted your fin. (straight or offset and how much!)

Blue skies and tailwinds,

Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

[klehman]

thanks Wayne
Another little mystery cleared up.
Ken

Anyhow, I forgot that the factory changed the tail spring retainer bolts to
1/4". This is so they can be used as rudder stops by putting a sleeve over
them at the top.

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[Richard DeCiero]

Alister,
Doesn't Murphy sell the rebel as a "Bush Plane"? I think that is what I remember from the early ad's. I also recall them stating a 400 hour build time. Yes, maybe if you have a factory full of spare parts so that if you get a defective or improperly made part you can go to the rack and get a new one. And you have A&P's or experienced sheet metal workers doing the work. One of MAC early ads included a quote from one builder who stated "If you can stomp a pop can, you can build a murphy rebel". Yes anyone can probably build one but will it ever be airworthy? I wonder if that guy is still alive?
Cheers to you Alister. Many of us are learning from your use of the airplane. Wayne O'Shea is also an inspiration for all of us I am sure. Keep up the good work and now that I have found this site I hope it will help me get this Rebel flying this year. S/N 446 I don't think that I can add too much to your experience at this point as you are well into the development of the airplane. One area that I plan to work on once I have this flying is in the seat area. I would like to lower the seats and kick up the front of the seat to provide support for the underthighs. But I don't want to get sidetracked too much as I just need to get it flying. Also, Thanks for the fin offset info. I have sent a memo to MAC for their opinion and I will forward it to you and if you have any comments they would be greatly appreciated.
Thank and Bye for now,
Rick DeCiero Rebel S/N 446
Alister Yeoman wrote:

Hi all, I put the stated 3/4" offset on the vertical fin (0-320) and it is not a problem, I put a trim tab on the rudder anticipating a problem but the thing is sitting there still in it's neutral position. Just a comment in regards to Geerts question on aligning the wheels on spring gear. I did a toe in/out check on mine and found it to be virtually neutral both unloaded and loaded, I left it there and it tracks very well. Camber appeared to be equal on both sides but varying depending on it's load as you would expect. Murphy does supply wedges with the kit to help with any adjustments that need to be made, I did not need to use these. I would like to make a comment regarding Grants open letter to this forum where my name was used. I do not treat my aircraft that badly! And I am not that a crash hot pilot! The areas I use can be quite rough but they are places that I would take the likes of a C-180/185, Piper Cub or Maule etc. and in fact I am accompanied this type of aircraft quite regularly. What does this mean? To me it means that if anybody intends to use a Rebel configured in the same way that I am, in those types of conditions, then there is an excellent chance they too will strike problems in the same areas I have, and I don't believe those conditions to be extreme. I do have a bit of a problem with the lack of info flowing to builders regarding some of the problems that have been found, that is why I have been 'drip feeding' my experiences to this forum. Whether or not a builder elects to do any thing about this info is then up to them, but they should at least be given the option. I am not particularly concerned at the extra work I have had to put into my Rebel, it is an outstanding aircraft and it is just ideal for the type of work I want it for ( and everybody just drools all over it down at the airport!!). The Rebel is still evolving as an aircraft and for the type of work it is expected to do e.g.. rough field, floats skis etc. Have a look at the latter C-185 and how they compare with their earlier models, they have doublers all over them, I wonder why! And remember I do have an experimental sticker on the side! Well it's summer here and I am out the door on holiday for ten days. Cheers Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca (oifa@irishfield.on.ca)>
To: Rebel Builders <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)>
Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 5:02 PM
Subject: Fin Offset
Richard, pulled your reply off the archives. I didn't receive as mail. Have you been officially subscribed to the list? Are you sending your mail to the list server instead of murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com) like you should be? Anyhow, I forgot that the factory changed the tail spring retainer bolts to 1/4". This is so they can be used as rudder stops by putting a sleeve over them at the top. They do not actually hold any tail spring pressure, as the tail spring forces up on the fin post when on the ground. 3/16 bolts are definitely strong enough if installed properly as they only keep the tail spring from falling off in flight. Any shear load on these bolts from the stabs is minimal because both stab struts are usually pulling equally(actually pushing equally in positive flight) except maybe in a side slip, thus no shear load on these bolts. Keep in mind that the bolts holding the stab struts on are only 3/16 and these have compressive shear loads in positive flight and of course tension/shear loads during negative flight and no one has had one let go, KNOCK ON WOOD! AS for the offset of the fin. 3/4 of an inch!!!!!! Do they want it to fly right hand circles all day without you!!!!!!! I offset my fin the original 1/2" (O-320 and Warp Drive) and I always need rudder in cruise to keep the ball centered and to keep flying straight. Don't need any rudder input on take off though. Both Howard Hanfords Rebel and the Rebel I just rebuilt (both O-320's and Aluminum Props) have no fin offset what so ever. They both need a little right rudder to keep the ball centered on takeoff, but both these aircraft will fly straight, hands and feet off for a hundred miles. I really prefer the rudder on takeoff and then its over with. If it were not for the necessity to make new fairings to cover the gap from the fin to stabs and the redoing of my dart style paint scheme on them, I would probably change mine to zero offset!!!!! REBEL FLYERS, Richard has asked what everyone else thinks about fin offset, that are already flying. Lets hear the need for rudder pedal and how you mounted your fin. (straight or offset and how much!) Blue skies and tailwinds, Wayne G. O'Sheawww.irishfield.on.ca

[Bob Patterson]

Once again, I'm WITH YOU, Wayne !! Have flown all kinds of different
offsets, and <I> prefer NO offset.

Had long discussion with Mike Davies (ex VP-Eng. of DeHavilland) about
fin offset - he finally decided on NONE. Reasoning was that, whatever
offset you choose, it's only ideal for ONE power setting and speed combo.,
and centering is easiest to build, and you can always add a small trim tab,
if there's really a problem. Also, you don't have to worry if you change to
an engine that turns the opposite direction, later.

He has been very happy with HIS Rebel.

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 10:58 PM 1/10/00 -0500, you wrote:

Richard, pulled your reply off the archives. I didn't receive as mail. Have

you been officially subscribed to the list? Are you sending your mail to the
list server instead of murphy-rebel@dcsol.com like you should be?

Anyhow, I forgot that the factory changed the tail spring retainer bolts to

1/4". This is so they can be used as rudder stops by putting a sleeve over
them at the top. They do not actually hold any tail spring pressure, as the
tail spring forces up on the fin post when on the ground. 3/16 bolts are
definitely strong enough if installed properly as they only keep the tail
spring from falling off in flight. Any shear load on these bolts from the
stabs is minimal because both stab struts are usually pulling
equally(actually pushing equally in positive flight) except maybe in a side
slip, thus no shear load on these bolts. Keep in mind that the bolts holding
the stab struts on are only 3/16 and these have compressive shear loads in
positive flight and of course tension/shear loads during negative flight and
no one has had one let go, KNOCK ON WOOD!

AS for the offset of the fin. 3/4 of an inch!!!!!! Do they want it to fly

right hand circles all day without you!!!!!!! I offset my fin the original
1/2" (O-320 and Warp Drive) and I always need rudder in cruise to keep the
ball centered and to keep flying straight. Don't need any rudder input on
take off though. Both Howard Hanfords Rebel and the Rebel I just rebuilt
(both O-320's and Aluminum Props) have no fin offset what so ever. They both
need a little right rudder to keep the ball centered on takeoff, but both
these aircraft will fly straight, hands and feet off for a hundred miles. I
really prefer the rudder on takeoff and then its over with. If it were not
for the necessity to make new fairings to cover the gap from the fin to
stabs and the redoing of my dart style paint scheme on them, I would
probably change mine to zero offset!!!!!

REBEL FLYERS, Richard has asked what everyone else thinks about fin offset,

that are already flying. Lets hear the need for rudder pedal and how you
mounted your fin. (straight or offset and how much!)

Blue skies and tailwinds,

Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Richard, pulled your reply off the archives. I
didn't receive as mail. Have you been officially subscribed to the list?

Are you

sending your mail to the list server instead of <A
href="mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com">murphy-rebel@dcsol.com</A> like you

should

be?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Anyhow, I forgot that the factory changed the
tail spring retainer bolts to 1/4". This is so they can be used as rudder
stops by putting a sleeve over them at the top. They do not actually hold any
tail spring pressure, as the tail spring forces up on the fin post when on the
ground. 3/16 bolts are definitely strong enough if installed properly as they
only keep the tail spring from falling off in flight. Any shear load on these
bolts from the stabs is minimal because both stab struts are usually pulling
equally(actually pushing equally in positive flight) except maybe in a side
slip, thus no shear load on these bolts. Keep in mind that the bolts

holding the

stab struts on are only 3/16 and these have compressive shear loads in

positive

flight and of course tension/shear loads during negative flight and no one has
had one let go, KNOCK ON WOOD!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>AS for the offset of the fin. 3/4 of an
inch!!!!!! Do they want it to fly right hand circles all day without

you!!!!!!!

I offset my fin the original 1/2" (O-320 and Warp Drive) and I always

need

rudder in cruise to keep the ball centered and to keep flying straight. Don't
need any rudder input on take off though. Both Howard Hanfords Rebel and the
Rebel I just rebuilt (both O-320's and Aluminum Props) have no fin offset what
so ever. They both need a little right rudder to keep the ball centered on
takeoff, but both these aircraft will fly straight, hands and feet off for a
hundred miles. I really prefer the rudder on takeoff and then its over

with. If

it were not for the necessity to make new fairings to cover the gap from

the fin

to stabs and the redoing of my dart style paint scheme on them, I would

probably

change mine to zero offset!!!!!&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face="" size=3><STRONG>REBEL FLYERS, Richard has

asked

what everyone else thinks about fin offset, that are already flying. Lets hear
the need for rudder pedal and how you mounted your fin. (straight or offset

and

how much!)</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face="" size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Blue skies and tailwinds,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Wayne G. O'Shea</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><A
href="http://www.irishfield.on.ca">www.irishfield.on.ca</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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[Alister Yeoman]

Hi all,

I put the stated 3/4" offset on the vertical fin (0-320) and it is not a problem, I put a trim tab on the rudder anticipating a problem but the thing is sitting there still in it's neutral position.

Just a comment in regards to Geerts question on aligning the wheels on spring gear. I did a toe in/out check on mine and found it to be virtually neutral both unloaded and loaded, I left it there and it tracks very well. Camber appeared to be equal on both sides but varying depending on it's load as you would expect. Murphy does supply wedges with the kit to help with any adjustments that need to be made, I did not need to use these.

I would like to make a comment regarding Grants open letter to this forum where my name was used.

I do not treat my aircraft that badly! And I am not that a crash hot pilot! The areas I use can be quite rough but they are places that I would take the likes of a C-180/185, Piper Cub or Maule etc. and in fact I am accompanied this type of aircraft quite regularly. What does this mean? To me it means that if anybody intends to use a Rebel configured in the same way that I am, in those types of conditions, then there is an excellent chance they too will strike problems in the same areas I have, and I don't believe those conditions to be extreme.

I do have a bit of a problem with the lack of info flowing to builders regarding some of the problems that have been found, that is why I have been 'drip feeding' my experiences to this forum. Whether or not a builder elects to do any thing about this info is then up to them, but they should at least be given the option.

I am not particularly concerned at the extra work I have had to put into my Rebel, it is an outstanding aircraft and it is just ideal for the type of work I want it for ( and everybody just drools all over it down at the airport!!). The Rebel is still evolving as an aircraft and for the type of work it is expected to do e.g.. rough field, floats skis etc. Have a look at the latter C-185 and how they compare with their earlier models, they have doublers all over them, I wonder why! And remember I do have an experimental sticker on the side!

Well it's summer here and I am out the door on holiday for ten days.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca (oifa@irishfield.on.ca)>
To: Rebel Builders <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)>
Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 5:02 PM
Subject: Fin Offset


Richard, pulled your reply off the archives. I didn't receive as mail. Have you been officially subscribed to the list? Are you sending your mail to the list server instead of murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com) like you should be?

Anyhow, I forgot that the factory changed the tail spring retainer bolts to 1/4". This is so they can be used as rudder stops by putting a sleeve over them at the top. They do not actually hold any tail spring pressure, as the tail spring forces up on the fin post when on the ground. 3/16 bolts are definitely strong enough if installed properly as they only keep the tail spring from falling off in flight. Any shear load on these bolts from the stabs is minimal because both stab struts are usually pulling equally(actually pushing equally in positive flight) except maybe in a side slip, thus no shear load on these bolts. Keep in mind that the bolts holding the stab struts on are only 3/16 and these have compressive shear loads in positive flight and of course tension/shear loads during negative flight and no one has had one let go, KNOCK ON WOOD!

AS for the offset of the fin. 3/4 of an inch!!!!!! Do they want it to fly right hand circles all day without you!!!!!!! I offset my fin the original 1/2" (O-320 and Warp Drive) and I always need rudder in cruise to keep the ball centered and to keep flying straight. Don't need any rudder input on take off though. Both Howard Hanfords Rebel and the Rebel I just rebuilt (both O-320's and Aluminum Props) have no fin offset what so ever. They both need a little right rudder to keep the ball centered on takeoff, but both these aircraft will fly straight, hands and feet off for a hundred miles. I really prefer the rudder on takeoff and then its over with. If it were not for the necessity to make new fairings to cover the gap from the fin to stabs and the redoing of my dart style paint scheme on them, I would probably change mine to zero offset!!!!!

REBEL FLYERS, Richard has asked what everyone else thinks about fin offset, that are already flying. Lets hear the need for rudder pedal and how you mounted your fin. (straight or offset and how much!)

Blue skies and tailwinds,

Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

[Rebflyer]

Hi all,
I guess I'll give my .02 on the tail offset. N97MR got the factory
recomended 3/4. Needs less rudder than a 172 on takeoff, and flies hands off
(2.5 hrs on the way to sun-n-fun with a light tap only on the rudder for
directional changes. HONEST) It does fly with the ball just ever so slightly
out to the right at high cruise settings. Thats 2550 rpm. It tools right
along at 120mph indicated at that setting. Now a, " has enyone else noticed",
kind of question. Doesn't the Rebel seem to really show it's greatest
delights in flight at lower speeds? What I mean is, doesn't a indicated
airspeed of 100 give a much more comfortable ride? Not that the 120 is bad,
but I feel that around 100 you can really see where the comfort level of this
aircraft was designed. Guess I'll really find that out when I get the floats
on. It really makes me feel that if I was not to go on the floats that 108
to115 hp would be just great.
Keep at it it's worth it. Curt N97MR
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[Richard DeCiero]

Hello Curt,
What is your engine/prop combo? Is your firewall back the recommended 3"?
Thanks,
Rick D.
Rebel S/N 446

Rebflyer@aol.com wrote:

Hi all,
I guess I'll give my .02 on the tail offset. N97MR got the factory
recomended 3/4. Needs less rudder than a 172 on takeoff, and flies hands off
(2.5 hrs on the way to sun-n-fun with a light tap only on the rudder for
directional changes. HONEST) It does fly with the ball just ever so slightly
out to the right at high cruise settings. Thats 2550 rpm. It tools right
along at 120mph indicated at that setting. Now a, " has enyone else noticed",
kind of question. Doesn't the Rebel seem to really show it's greatest
delights in flight at lower speeds? What I mean is, doesn't a indicated
airspeed of 100 give a much more comfortable ride? Not that the 120 is bad,
but I feel that around 100 you can really see where the comfort level of this
aircraft was designed. Guess I'll really find that out when I get the floats
on. It really makes me feel that if I was not to go on the floats that 108
to115 hp would be just great.
Keep at it it's worth it. Curt N97MR
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[Bob Patterson]

I know that <I> feel better with the slower cruise - at least with
FINR (Rebel #001). At one point, when I got new prop blades for the GSC,
I set the pitch 'way too coarse, and found myself cruising at 110 mph,
at only 5100 rpm, with the R912 ! While it sure was nice to be moving
that fast, the Rebel was a bit too skittish for my liking ... much more
sensitive to rough air, and just generally requiring more attention.
Control response was incredible !

Re-pitched finer, and went back to our old cruise of 97 mph, at
5400 rpm - MUCH more relaxed and comfortable ! Of course, the control horns,
rod lengths, angles, etc. have all changed several times since FINR was
built, and newer Rebels are much less touchy than ours.

Our other Rebel, with the O-235-C2C, only cruises at 90 - 95 mph,
on Murphy 1500 amphibs, and is very relaxed at that speed :-)
(a few more ponies would really help ! ;-) )

In any case, they are both really pleasant aircraft to fly on
long trips. (Like Rebel Rambles to the West Coast ;-) )

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 08:51 PM 1/14/00 EST, you wrote:

Hi all,
I guess I'll give my .02 on the tail offset. N97MR got the factory
recomended 3/4. Needs less rudder than a 172 on takeoff, and flies hands off
(2.5 hrs on the way to sun-n-fun with a light tap only on the rudder for
directional changes. HONEST) It does fly with the ball just ever so slightly
out to the right at high cruise settings. Thats 2550 rpm. It tools right
along at 120mph indicated at that setting. Now a, " has enyone else noticed",
kind of question. Doesn't the Rebel seem to really show it's greatest
delights in flight at lower speeds? What I mean is, doesn't a indicated
airspeed of 100 give a much more comfortable ride? Not that the 120 is bad,
but I feel that around 100 you can really see where the comfort level of this
aircraft was designed. Guess I'll really find that out when I get the floats
on. It really makes me feel that if I was not to go on the floats that 108
to115 hp would be just great.
Keep at it it's worth it. Curt N97MR
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[Rebflyer]

Hi Rick,
Yup, the firewall is back the three inches. The motor is a 0-320a2b.
That's a 150hp conical motor mount lycoming. Prop is a McCauley 76in with 54
pitch. The prop is soon to be a Warp drive three blade. This prop is fine for
wheels, but I just don't think it will be right for the floats. It's only
turning just over 2300 rpm on the T.O. roll. Keep at it, it's worth it!
Curt N97MR
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

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the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 08:13:02 on 20 Jan 2000.
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Curt, Howards prop was a MaCauley 76 X 54. He had it repitched to 50 to get
the RPM's up for floats. Maybe it's worth spending $250CDN to give it a try
first, before buying a new prop??? Any good prop shop can repitch it! Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Rebflyer@aol.com <Rebflyer@aol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Fin Offset

Hi Rick,
Yup, the firewall is back the three inches. The motor is a 0-320a2b.
That's a 150hp conical motor mount lycoming. Prop is a McCauley 76in with

54

pitch. The prop is soon to be a Warp drive three blade. This prop is fine

for

wheels, but I just don't think it will be right for the floats. It's only
turning just over 2300 rpm on the T.O. roll. Keep at it, it's worth it!
Curt N97MR
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[Rebflyer]

Thanks Wayne,
Did the 50 pitch seem to be right? I had been considering that ,
but I didn't have a good number to go to. ( I never can seem to spell
MaCauley right!) I should have known to go here with the question. Thanks
again, N97MR Curt
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

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Your following message has been delivered to the 145 members of
the list murphy-rebel@dcsol.com at 23:26:22 on 26 Jan 2000.
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Curt,

Howard has played and played with this prop and seemed to be happy with the
50 pitch. That is until he saw my new Sensenich prop, so we tried it on his
plane just before he left for the winter to Florida. He is supposed to be
ordering one for me to install in the spring, but is picking a different
length/pitch than the one we tried(so he will be playing again)! Sometimes I
wish he would leave well enough alone, but he is allways looking for another
10FPM. The Sensenich prop has very wide blade tips (around 4") compared to
the MaCauley. I am assuming that your MaCauley prop is the same as Howard's
(you saw it at Oshkosh) and has a fairly narrow tip (around 2"), just so we
are comparing apples to apples. I just thought it would be worth the small
price to repitch what you have, and not have to make a new spinner, etc. A
good prop shop will know how much finer to make your propellor if you tell
them your current climb out RPM, vs. what you would like to see for floats.

Take care,

Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: Rebflyer@aol.com <Rebflyer@aol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: Fin Offset

Thanks Wayne,
Did the 50 pitch seem to be right? I had been considering that

,

but I didn't have a good number to go to. ( I never can seem to spell
MaCauley right!) I should have known to go here with the question. Thanks
again, N97MR Curt
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[Rebflyer]

Hi Wayne,
Sounds like the same prop. I guess I'll give it a try. Thanks again,
N97MR Curt
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