Moose Landing speed

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Same wing...imagine the same characteristics to both airplanes. Time for Bob
P. to chime in and confirm or deny my suspicions since he's spent a "bit" of
time in both!

Cheers and have a great Christmas everyone!
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "larry173" <larry@thermaire.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel trim tab throw

Are you talking about a Rebel or Moose I think Ted has a Moose
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel trim tab throw

Larry...tell him to try putting some power on. You can't land the 4415
wing
STOL without power...it just don't work. The airfoil will quit flying

nose

high without power. Takes some getting use to it and until you are well
versed in full power bursts to get some forward momentum (to avoid a
vertical drop without forward motion) carry min 60MPH down final..round

it

out and let it slow while you gentle pull the stick back to avoid
ballooning.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "larry173" <larry@thermaire.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel trim tab throw

I am told by another Moose owner that if you go too slow, I think

arountd

65mph on final that the tail wants to sink and there is nothing you can
do
about it. He did the M14 radial prior to Mam so maybe the c of g is
different. Is yours a Mam conversion? Or is the horizontal stab too
small.
He said it prevented him from doing stol landings. Any comments.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: Rebel trim tab throw

to

about

this

clevis

down.

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I was just talking with Brent G. at MAM about a windshield I have on it's
way. He says he's flown this airfoil on a round engined beast or two and
pretty much concurs what I've been saying. It displayed the same
characteristics on all airframes. Get it a little slow and nose high and it
is the express elevator to the ground. Found in the beaver that he could
consistently stop in 4-500 feet keeping 70 on the clock and oodles of power
in, nice little blast on the round out and let it settle. Almost no braking
on grass. He has not had the oportunity to play with the Moose yet, but
expects that his beaver time will help out.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:39 PM
Subject: Moose Landing speed

Same wing...imagine the same characteristics to both airplanes. Time for

Bob

P. to chime in and confirm or deny my suspicions since he's spent a "bit"

of

time in both!

Cheers and have a great Christmas everyone!
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "larry173" <larry@thermaire.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel trim tab throw

Are you talking about a Rebel or Moose I think Ted has a Moose
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel trim tab throw

Larry...tell him to try putting some power on. You can't land the 4415
wing
STOL without power...it just don't work. The airfoil will quit flying

nose

high without power. Takes some getting use to it and until you are

well

versed in full power bursts to get some forward momentum (to avoid a
vertical drop without forward motion) carry min 60MPH down

final..round

it

out and let it slow while you gentle pull the stick back to avoid
ballooning.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "larry173" <larry@thermaire.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel trim tab throw

arountd

can

have

trying

to

Of

about

this

clevis

down.

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[Ted Waltman]

It's that "oodles of power" thing that has me a bit nervous. Always was
taught that dragging one in with power was (someday) a sure trip to
landing in the weeds someday when the engine burps. Guess that I'll
have to practice the power-on approach nonetheless to insure I can get
it in consistently in less than 1,000' just in case.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 4:10 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose Landing speed


I was just talking with Brent G. at MAM about a windshield I have on
it's way. He says he's flown this airfoil on a round engined beast or
two and pretty much concurs what I've been saying. It displayed the same
characteristics on all airframes. Get it a little slow and nose high and
it is the express elevator to the ground. Found in the beaver that he
could consistently stop in 4-500 feet keeping 70 on the clock and oodles
of power in, nice little blast on the round out and let it settle.
Almost no braking on grass. He has not had the oportunity to play with
the Moose yet, but expects that his beaver time will help out.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:39 PM
Subject: Moose Landing speed

Same wing...imagine the same characteristics to both airplanes. Time
for

Bob

P. to chime in and confirm or deny my suspicions since he's spent a
"bit"

of

time in both!

Cheers and have a great Christmas everyone!
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "larry173" <larry@thermaire.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel trim tab throw

Are you talking about a Rebel or Moose I think Ted has a Moose
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel trim tab throw

Larry...tell him to try putting some power on. You can't land the
4415 wing STOL without power...it just don't work. The airfoil
will quit flying

nose

high without power. Takes some getting use to it and until you are

well

versed in full power bursts to get some forward momentum (to avoid

a vertical drop without forward motion) carry min 60MPH down

final..round

it

out and let it slow while you gentle pull the stick back to avoid
ballooning.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "larry173" <larry@thermaire.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel trim tab throw

arountd

can

have

trying

to

Of

currently

have

about

this

clevis

down.

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[Bob Patterson]

I'm with you Ted !! I don't EVER like to drag anything in - sooner
or later the engine might hiccup and ..... :-(

If you're getting the Moose down & stopped in under 1,000 ft.,
you're doing well ! That's probably a realistic number to work with.

I never used more than 2 notches of flap, and about 70+ mph on
final. Tried 3 notches a few times - great rate of descent, but tooooo
much sink to allow decent flare without lots of power at just the right time !
Not my style !! I like lots of options, and always try to have an
alternative.

As several have commented, I'm an old glider pilot - and I got old by
flying powered aircraft the same way as gliders ! The original idea of a
circuit (pattern) was to always stay within gliding distance of the airport,
in case the engine quit - as they often did long ago ! ;-)

With 2 notches of flap, and 70+ mph, the SR/Moose comes down nicely
at about 1,500 - 1,300 rpm (no longer pull the power completely until the
runway is definitely made - something about the enormous expense
of replacing shock-cooled cylinders !! ;-( ) If I'm really high, I'll
add the 3rd notch and slow a bit - take it down just under 65, and wait.
The rate of sink shoots up dramatically !! A bit lower, lower the nose,
go back to 2 notches, and lose a bunch more height getting the speed back.
This trick works with both the Rebel and the Moose - same airfoil !

Old glider pilot wisdom - "drag SQUARES with speed" - SO, if you are
high, with flaps, you can push the speed up a bit, and really come down
quicker ! Not intuitive, but effective. Also, there's no problem slipping
with flaps, if you're really high .... Of course, all of these tricks
are just to get you down to the "normal" glide path, where you can stabilize
the approach and not be playing with things while landing ! ;-)

Someone asked about a 2,000 ft strip - shouldn't be problem as long
as you're not at gross ! ;-) The shortest takeoff I ever did, with the
Lyc. IO-540 260 hp. powered SR, with just me, 100+ lb. of 'baggage', and
under quarter tanks (NOT recommended !) , was about 300 ft of grass. I used
full flap, and sneaked one notch off, once safely in the air.

The old SR was VERY difficult to do a good 3 point in - the longer gear legs
of the Moose REALLY fixed that problem ! The round-engined Moose needs
special consideration - you have to realize that the big 360/400 hp. engine is
a LOT heavier than the Lyc. O-360 (180 - 200 hp.) 4-banger that the original
Super Rebel was designed for !! In order to get the use of the full max.
gross weight, ALL of the weight goes AFT, so, flying light, you MUST be
sure to have SOME weight AFT. SOP was to have 150 lb. or so of tools,
SCUBA tank, oil (need a case anyway !), etc. right at the back of the
baggage area. Even then, you should be gentle on the brakes on landing !
I wouldn't be wanting to do toooo many wheel landings, especially with brakes
and/or large tires, given the acknowledged *ahem* discussions of the gear
system. Until we can get PPONK to supply something .... ;-)
(see the archives .... :-( )

Enough rambling !

Merry Christmas to all !! And to all a GOOD FLIGHT !!!!! :-) :-) :-)

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 23 December 2004 08:16 pm, Ted Waltman wrote:

It's that "oodles of power" thing that has me a bit nervous. Always was
taught that dragging one in with power was (someday) a sure trip to
landing in the weeds someday when the engine burps. Guess that I'll
have to practice the power-on approach nonetheless to insure I can get
it in consistently in less than 1,000' just in case.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 4:10 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose Landing speed


I was just talking with Brent G. at MAM about a windshield I have on
it's way. He says he's flown this airfoil on a round engined beast or
two and pretty much concurs what I've been saying. It displayed the same
characteristics on all airframes. Get it a little slow and nose high and
it is the express elevator to the ground. Found in the beaver that he
could consistently stop in 4-500 feet keeping 70 on the clock and oodles
of power in, nice little blast on the round out and let it settle.
Almost no braking on grass. He has not had the oportunity to play with
the Moose yet, but expects that his beaver time will help out.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:39 PM
Subject: Moose Landing speed

Same wing...imagine the same characteristics to both airplanes. Time
for

Bob P. to chime in and confirm or deny my suspicions since he's spent a

"bit" of time in both!

Cheers and have a great Christmas everyone!
Wayne

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