SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

[Nielsenbe]

Hello everyone, I am getting ready to order the wings for my moose. I just
thought I would check and see if anyone knew of a set for sale anywhere. I also
wanted to ask about what options everyone thinks I should get. I think someone
said if you order them without tips you get a discount that can be put toword
better tips. 120 gal tanks?(says 100 on the web page but I think that's
wrong)? It seems like more is better but then you end up always flying heavier and
have more unusable fuel. I looked at the fast build option but I have found at
least two places that will do the work for close to the same price and I
prefer to give my money to a small business that I know rather than murphy sending
it overseas. I am going to try and complete them myself anyway..... builder
assist just before I stick a #30 drill in my temple.


Thanks, Brad
SR222




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[Ted Waltman]

Murphy is doing all the work in Canada now, at least that's what I heard
from folks at Oshkosh this summer. Apparently MAM had too many QA
problems with the overseas work.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Nielsenbe@aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 1:14 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options


Hello everyone, I am getting ready to order the wings for my moose. I
just
thought I would check and see if anyone knew of a set for sale anywhere.
I also
wanted to ask about what options everyone thinks I should get. I think
someone
said if you order them without tips you get a discount that can be put
toword
better tips. 120 gal tanks?(says 100 on the web page but I think that's
wrong)? It seems like more is better but then you end up always flying
heavier and
have more unusable fuel. I looked at the fast build option but I have
found at
least two places that will do the work for close to the same price and I

prefer to give my money to a small business that I know rather than
murphy sending
it overseas. I am going to try and complete them myself anyway.....
builder
assist just before I stick a #30 drill in my temple.


Thanks, Brad
SR222




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[Reed Britt Civ OO-ALC/MAD]

Brad - Look into just having the spars built up -

On the Fuel capacity - 5 bays (100 gallons) instead of 4 doesn't cost any
extra and is just a little extra hassle trimming in the outboard forward
corners.

Britt - SR194

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Nielsenbe@aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 1:14 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Hello everyone, I am getting ready to order the wings for my moose. I just
thought I would check and see if anyone knew of a set for sale anywhere. I
also
wanted to ask about what options everyone thinks I should get. I think
someone
said if you order them without tips you get a discount that can be put
toword
better tips. 120 gal tanks?(says 100 on the web page but I think that's
wrong)? It seems like more is better but then you end up always flying
heavier and
have more unusable fuel. I looked at the fast build option but I have found
at
least two places that will do the work for close to the same price and I
prefer to give my money to a small business that I know rather than murphy
sending
it overseas. I am going to try and complete them myself anyway..... builder
assist just before I stick a #30 drill in my temple.


Thanks, Brad
SR222




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[Scott Aldrich]

I have a hunch the web is correct and they only offer the 100 gallons on the
fast build now. The 120, going out 6 bays, was a hassle building a box
around the wing strut attach and getting the spar to seal. I know of three
fast builds that all had leaks inside this area (including ours). You're
not really getting 120 gallons either due to the dry box around the strut
attach fitting.

I would just go with the regular wing and go out 5 bays like Britt did. You
will get differing opinions but I haven't heard too many say they wish they
had smaller tanks and if I can avoid carry cans in the cabin all the better.
As far as extra weight, just fill to what you need. I always drain the
sumps so don't worry too much about the full tanks while parked to avoid
condensation plan.

Was there thicker skin in the tank area Britt?

FWIW
Scott
Moose 174


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Reed
Britt Civ OO-ALC/MADE
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 1:31 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Brad - Look into just having the spars built up -

On the Fuel capacity - 5 bays (100 gallons) instead of 4 doesn't cost any
extra and is just a little extra hassle trimming in the outboard forward
corners.

Britt - SR194

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Nielsenbe@aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 1:14 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Hello everyone, I am getting ready to order the wings for my moose. I just
thought I would check and see if anyone knew of a set for sale anywhere. I
also
wanted to ask about what options everyone thinks I should get. I think
someone
said if you order them without tips you get a discount that can be put
toword
better tips. 120 gal tanks?(says 100 on the web page but I think that's
wrong)? It seems like more is better but then you end up always flying
heavier and
have more unusable fuel. I looked at the fast build option but I have found
at
least two places that will do the work for close to the same price and I
prefer to give my money to a small business that I know rather than murphy
sending
it overseas. I am going to try and complete them myself anyway..... builder
assist just before I stick a #30 drill in my temple.


Thanks, Brad
SR222




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[Reed Britt Civ OO-ALC/MAD]

I haven't gotten my skins out of storage (I was anticipating buying some
sheetstock locally and using the prepunched as a template) but called Brian
and he said it is all the same - Nothing extra needed -

Britt SR194


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Aldrich
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 2:13 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

I have a hunch the web is correct and they only offer the 100 gallons on the
fast build now. The 120, going out 6 bays, was a hassle building a box
around the wing strut attach and getting the spar to seal. I know of three
fast builds that all had leaks inside this area (including ours). You're
not really getting 120 gallons either due to the dry box around the strut
attach fitting.

I would just go with the regular wing and go out 5 bays like Britt did. You
will get differing opinions but I haven't heard too many say they wish they
had smaller tanks and if I can avoid carry cans in the cabin all the better.
As far as extra weight, just fill to what you need. I always drain the
sumps so don't worry too much about the full tanks while parked to avoid
condensation plan.

Was there thicker skin in the tank area Britt?

FWIW
Scott
Moose 174


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Reed
Britt Civ OO-ALC/MADE
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 1:31 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Brad - Look into just having the spars built up -

On the Fuel capacity - 5 bays (100 gallons) instead of 4 doesn't cost any
extra and is just a little extra hassle trimming in the outboard forward
corners.

Britt - SR194

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Nielsenbe@aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 1:14 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Hello everyone, I am getting ready to order the wings for my moose. I just
thought I would check and see if anyone knew of a set for sale anywhere. I
also
wanted to ask about what options everyone thinks I should get. I think
someone
said if you order them without tips you get a discount that can be put
toword
better tips. 120 gal tanks?(says 100 on the web page but I think that's
wrong)? It seems like more is better but then you end up always flying
heavier and
have more unusable fuel. I looked at the fast build option but I have found
at
least two places that will do the work for close to the same price and I
prefer to give my money to a small business that I know rather than murphy
sending
it overseas. I am going to try and complete them myself anyway..... builder
assist just before I stick a #30 drill in my temple.


Thanks, Brad
SR222




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[Nielsenbe]

Britt

The MAM web page list $265 for the 100 gal tanks as an option. Is that what
you recomend or did you do it a diffrent way?

Thanks, Brad




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[Scott Aldrich]

Brad,

While I am waiting for some primer to dry, here is some more FWIW info.

If I was building my wing from parts I would add full length cross vent tube
from high point in outboard corner to outboard corner(added this to FB
wing).

Add fuel caps with filler necks in the third bay out. This way if you ever
go on floats it is much easier fueling (can reach it from the step). Even
with the 120 gallon tanks you can almost get it full due to the filler neck
height. With 5 bays out you may not even need the fuel filler in the
outboard bay. We have the flush in the outboard and regular in bay 3.


Either install the sealed nut plates to hold the aileron and flap hinge
brackets or the very least don't follow the plans and put the nuts inside
the tanks were you will never be able to see if they have fallen off, put
nuts on outside.

Add an aileron trim servo.

I would make or buy an extra rib and extend the wing at least 6 inches,
maybe a whole bay.

Install actual bearings around the aileron torque tubes at the butt rib
(Some are installing bearing there and at the control torque tube in the
floor, makes for very easy/smooth controls - mine are not this way but I
have "played" with ones that are).

Possibly move the fuel pick port on the butt rib back to the aft corner and
add one near the front and tie them together al la Cessna (didn't do this
but added header tanks on each side). With the current port location, about
11 inches forward of aft corner, and the extra long tanks you can get
considerable amount of fuel behind the port during a go around. No one has
had any problems with stock that we know of though, I just didn't like it.

Probably more, but primer is dry so back to work.

Scott
Moose 174





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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Here's my two cents in Scott's message in CAPS. Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:03 PM
Subject: RE: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Brad,

While I am waiting for some primer to dry, here is some more FWIW info.

If I was building my wing from parts I would add full length cross vent

tube

from high point in outboard corner to outboard corner(added this to FB
wing). GREAT IDEA DON'T FORGET THE TEE AND A RAM AIR TUBE IN ONE ROOT

FAIRING!

Add fuel caps with filler necks in the third bay out. This way if you ever
go on floats it is much easier fueling (can reach it from the step). Even
with the 120 gallon tanks you can almost get it full due to the filler

neck

height. With 5 bays out you may not even need the fuel filler in the
outboard bay. We have the flush in the outboard and regular in bay 3.
GREAT TO HAVE THAT "HAND HOLD" CAP AS EASY REACH WITH JERRY CAN AND?OR

HOSE AS SCOTT POINTS OUT

Either install the sealed nut plates to hold the aileron and flap hinge
brackets or the very least don't follow the plans and put the nuts inside
the tanks were you will never be able to see if they have fallen off, put
nuts on outside.

I STILL HAVE ONE LUG ANCHOR NUTS AVAILABLE IF ANYONE NEEDS THEM TO
FACILITATE AILERON/FLAP HINGE REMOVAL/REPLACEMENT AFTER THE TANKS ARE CLOSED

Add an aileron trim servo.

PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA...BUT FLEW A C182 FOR YEARS THAT HAD AUTOPILOT AND

NEVER< TURNED IT ON!

I would make or buy an extra rib and extend the wing at least 6 inches,
maybe a whole bay.

DONE A STRESS ANALYSIS ON THAT WHOLE BAY? "ART" MISSED IT ON SOME EARLIER
CESSNAS AND BROKE WING SPARES WITH THEIR EXTENSIONS!

Install actual bearings around the aileron torque tubes at the butt rib
(Some are installing bearing there and at the control torque tube in the
floor, makes for very easy/smooth controls - mine are not this way but I
have "played" with ones that are).

NOT SURE ABOUT THIS ONE! BEARINGS TO MAINTAIN/SEIZE/ETC VS A LIFETIME DELRIN
BEARING.....AND FRICTION >IS< A GOOD THING IN THE CONTROLS TO PREVENT
FLUTTER!!

Possibly move the fuel pick port on the butt rib back to the aft corner

and

add one near the front and tie them together al la Cessna (didn't do this
but added header tanks on each side). With the current port location,

about

11 inches forward of aft corner, and the extra long tanks you can get
considerable amount of fuel behind the port during a go around. No one

has

had any problems with stock that we know of though, I just didn't like it.

RUNNING A FUEL PUMP????? DO NOT, I REPEAT..DO NOT HAVE TWO OUTLETS IN THE
TANK (without a header tank) AS IF YOU "UNCORK" ONE THE PUMP WILL DO THE
EASIEST WHICH IS TO SUCK THE AIR AND CAVITATE IF UNDER HIGH POWER SETTING
WHEN IT HAPPENS!

Probably more, but primer is dry so back to work.

I'LL SHUT UP NOW AS WELL ! ))) WAYNE

Scott
Moose 174





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[Mike Davis]

I deleted my wing tips when I ordered and they credited me the cost... this
way I can use what ever tips I want when the time comes. I have the 120
gallon tanks, but will probably only go with 100 gal because of the way the
strut attach point must be boxed in... the larger tanks do get a longer
heavier tank skin, so don't order 80 gal if you intend on putting in 100
gal.

Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Hello everyone, I am getting ready to order the wings for my moose. I just
thought I would check and see if anyone knew of a set for sale anywhere. I
also
wanted to ask about what options everyone thinks I should get. I think
someone
said if you order them without tips you get a discount that can be put
toword
better tips. 120 gal tanks?(says 100 on the web page but I think that's
wrong)? It seems like more is better but then you end up always flying
heavier and
have more unusable fuel. I looked at the fast build option but I have
found at
least two places that will do the work for close to the same price and I
prefer to give my money to a small business that I know rather than murphy
sending
it overseas. I am going to try and complete them myself anyway.....
builder
assist just before I stick a #30 drill in my temple.


Thanks, Brad
SR222




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[Ralph Baker]

----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 3:14 PM
Subject: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Hello everyone, I am getting ready to order the wings for my moose. I just
thought I would check and see if anyone knew of a set for sale anywhere. I

also

wanted to ask about what options everyone thinks I should get. I think

someone

said if you order them without tips you get a discount that can be put

toword

better tips. 120 gal tanks?(says 100 on the web page but I think that's
wrong)? It seems like more is better but then you end up always flying

heavier and

have more unusable fuel. I looked at the fast build option but I have

found at

least two places that will do the work for close to the same price and I
prefer to give my money to a small business that I know rather than murphy

sending

it overseas. I am going to try and complete them myself anyway.....

builder

assist just before I stick a #30 drill in my temple.


Thanks, Brad
SR222




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[Dale Kilbey]

Hi Wayne
I will takre the required number of one lug nuts . Let me know how much ahd
I'll send the money
Dale




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[Scott Aldrich]

My .002 cents (you may get that one Wayne:)on Wayne's comments:

Extended wing: Who is "ART"? If extend wing 6 inch and use current tip or
similar you are at approximately the same span as the new MAM tip, assuming
Daryl ran some numbers??

Flutter: I am doubtful the lack of flutter in the MAM design is due to stiff
controls. I agree though that stiffness can dampen the tendency.

Quote from Tony B.
"Avoid free play or slack in the control cables. Stiffness in the control
system does have a useful damping effect on the control surfaces further
inhibiting flutter tendencies. However, this should not be completely relied
upon as later, in service, the wear and occasional lubrication could free
the system of much of its original friction and result in an increased risk
of flutter." Do the delrin bearings ever wear in??

In our (all MAM type) planes I suspect sloppy trim tabs would be the most
likely cause of flutter.

Fuel: Your talking about an electric boost pump right, not the engine driven
pump? Many of the Piper high wings run fore and aft ports with no header
tank and no ill effect. I know of at least one SR with fore and aft pickups
with a 540 lyc (not sure if IO or O-540). As I mentioned I went the header
tank route, one on each side, single original pick up port. Another flying
Moose went with one large header tank in the floor with dual pickups.

Scott



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:25 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Here's my two cents in Scott's message in CAPS. Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:03 PM
Subject: RE: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Brad,

While I am waiting for some primer to dry, here is some more FWIW info.

If I was building my wing from parts I would add full length cross vent

tube

from high point in outboard corner to outboard corner(added this to FB
wing). GREAT IDEA DON'T FORGET THE TEE AND A RAM AIR TUBE IN ONE ROOT

FAIRING!

Add fuel caps with filler necks in the third bay out. This way if you ever
go on floats it is much easier fueling (can reach it from the step). Even
with the 120 gallon tanks you can almost get it full due to the filler

neck

height. With 5 bays out you may not even need the fuel filler in the
outboard bay. We have the flush in the outboard and regular in bay 3.
GREAT TO HAVE THAT "HAND HOLD" CAP AS EASY REACH WITH JERRY CAN AND?OR

HOSE AS SCOTT POINTS OUT

Either install the sealed nut plates to hold the aileron and flap hinge
brackets or the very least don't follow the plans and put the nuts inside
the tanks were you will never be able to see if they have fallen off, put
nuts on outside.

I STILL HAVE ONE LUG ANCHOR NUTS AVAILABLE IF ANYONE NEEDS THEM TO
FACILITATE AILERON/FLAP HINGE REMOVAL/REPLACEMENT AFTER THE TANKS ARE CLOSED

Add an aileron trim servo.

PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA...BUT FLEW A C182 FOR YEARS THAT HAD AUTOPILOT AND

NEVER< TURNED IT ON!

I would make or buy an extra rib and extend the wing at least 6 inches,
maybe a whole bay.

DONE A STRESS ANALYSIS ON THAT WHOLE BAY? "ART" MISSED IT ON SOME EARLIER
CESSNAS AND BROKE WING SPARES WITH THEIR EXTENSIONS!

Install actual bearings around the aileron torque tubes at the butt rib
(Some are installing bearing there and at the control torque tube in the
floor, makes for very easy/smooth controls - mine are not this way but I
have "played" with ones that are).

NOT SURE ABOUT THIS ONE! BEARINGS TO MAINTAIN/SEIZE/ETC VS A LIFETIME DELRIN
BEARING.....AND FRICTION >IS< A GOOD THING IN THE CONTROLS TO PREVENT
FLUTTER!!

Possibly move the fuel pick port on the butt rib back to the aft corner

and

add one near the front and tie them together al la Cessna (didn't do this
but added header tanks on each side). With the current port location,

about

11 inches forward of aft corner, and the extra long tanks you can get
considerable amount of fuel behind the port during a go around. No one

has

had any problems with stock that we know of though, I just didn't like it.

RUNNING A FUEL PUMP????? DO NOT, I REPEAT..DO NOT HAVE TWO OUTLETS IN THE
TANK (without a header tank) AS IF YOU "UNCORK" ONE THE PUMP WILL DO THE
EASIEST WHICH IS TO SUCK THE AIR AND CAVITATE IF UNDER HIGH POWER SETTING
WHEN IT HAPPENS!

Probably more, but primer is dry so back to work.

I'LL SHUT UP NOW AS WELL ! ))) WAYNE

Scott
Moose 174

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Scott that is why I said "WHOLE BAY"! And ART is Air Research Technology
that makes 18" wing extensions for the C180/182 series. On models without a
factory installed reinforcing web by Cessna they started breaking the main
spar ......as they didn't research in depth enough what they were doing and
ended up fixing customers airplanes and upgrading their kit and installation
drawings to include opening up the wing to install more spar caps to match
the later models construction.

The Delrin bearings pretty much stay the way they are with absolutely
minimum wear. Other than polishing the alum slightly I doubt anyone will see
any considerable change in the friction component...where as using a
bearing...if dirt gets in it or salt air and rust it's going to change.

High wing Pipers PA3/4/5/11/12/14/18 don't run pumps....boost or engine....
and many of them came out of the factory with header tanks as well even
though they are strictly gravity fed.

Even gravity feed on the Rebel drew air into the outlet via the original
tee'd set up of the sight gauge. It took over 10 gallons in a tank to start
a siphon to the gascolator. Anything else was just a sporadic stream of fuel
and air bubbles and the reason for the SB to separate the sight gauge from
the outlet. Having two outlets is basically the same thing if one of them is
uncorked when low on fuel. Hopefully there is sufficient pipe before they
join to work in effect as a header tank from a height high enough to give
head pressure to pop the float needle and allow for the carb bowl to fill. I
brought this drawing of air through a secondary tank outlet up at a
Transport Canada seminar and had full backing of the Airworthiness AME from
TC running the seminar advising all in attendance to heed my advise (based
on document starvation cases he has on file).....and like you said you
installed a header tank to cover your ass so you'll be safe!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 8:09 PM
Subject: RE: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

My .002 cents (you may get that one Wayne:)on Wayne's comments:

Extended wing: Who is "ART"? If extend wing 6 inch and use current tip or
similar you are at approximately the same span as the new MAM tip,

assuming

Daryl ran some numbers??

Flutter: I am doubtful the lack of flutter in the MAM design is due to

stiff

controls. I agree though that stiffness can dampen the tendency.

Quote from Tony B.
"Avoid free play or slack in the control cables. Stiffness in the control
system does have a useful damping effect on the control surfaces further
inhibiting flutter tendencies. However, this should not be completely

relied

upon as later, in service, the wear and occasional lubrication could free
the system of much of its original friction and result in an increased

risk

of flutter." Do the delrin bearings ever wear in??

In our (all MAM type) planes I suspect sloppy trim tabs would be the most
likely cause of flutter.

Fuel: Your talking about an electric boost pump right, not the engine

driven

pump? Many of the Piper high wings run fore and aft ports with no header
tank and no ill effect. I know of at least one SR with fore and aft

pickups

with a 540 lyc (not sure if IO or O-540). As I mentioned I went the

header

tank route, one on each side, single original pick up port. Another

flying

Moose went with one large header tank in the floor with dual pickups.

Scott



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

Wayne

G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 4:25 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Here's my two cents in Scott's message in CAPS. Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:03 PM
Subject: RE: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Brad,

While I am waiting for some primer to dry, here is some more FWIW info.

If I was building my wing from parts I would add full length cross vent

tube

from high point in outboard corner to outboard corner(added this to FB
wing). GREAT IDEA DON'T FORGET THE TEE AND A RAM AIR TUBE IN ONE ROOT

FAIRING!

Add fuel caps with filler necks in the third bay out. This way if you

ever

go on floats it is much easier fueling (can reach it from the step).

Even

with the 120 gallon tanks you can almost get it full due to the filler

neck

height. With 5 bays out you may not even need the fuel filler in the
outboard bay. We have the flush in the outboard and regular in bay 3.
GREAT TO HAVE THAT "HAND HOLD" CAP AS EASY REACH WITH JERRY CAN AND?OR

HOSE AS SCOTT POINTS OUT

Either install the sealed nut plates to hold the aileron and flap hinge
brackets or the very least don't follow the plans and put the nuts

inside

the tanks were you will never be able to see if they have fallen off,

put

nuts on outside.

I STILL HAVE ONE LUG ANCHOR NUTS AVAILABLE IF ANYONE NEEDS THEM TO
FACILITATE AILERON/FLAP HINGE REMOVAL/REPLACEMENT AFTER THE TANKS ARE

CLOSED

Add an aileron trim servo.

PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA...BUT FLEW A C182 FOR YEARS THAT HAD AUTOPILOT AND

NEVER< TURNED IT ON!

I would make or buy an extra rib and extend the wing at least 6 inches,
maybe a whole bay.

DONE A STRESS ANALYSIS ON THAT WHOLE BAY? "ART" MISSED IT ON SOME EARLIER
CESSNAS AND BROKE WING SPARES WITH THEIR EXTENSIONS!

Install actual bearings around the aileron torque tubes at the butt rib
(Some are installing bearing there and at the control torque tube in the
floor, makes for very easy/smooth controls - mine are not this way but I
have "played" with ones that are).

NOT SURE ABOUT THIS ONE! BEARINGS TO MAINTAIN/SEIZE/ETC VS A LIFETIME

DELRIN

BEARING.....AND FRICTION >IS< A GOOD THING IN THE CONTROLS TO PREVENT
FLUTTER!!

Possibly move the fuel pick port on the butt rib back to the aft corner

and

add one near the front and tie them together al la Cessna (didn't do

this

but added header tanks on each side). With the current port location,

about

11 inches forward of aft corner, and the extra long tanks you can get
considerable amount of fuel behind the port during a go around. No one

has

had any problems with stock that we know of though, I just didn't like

it.

RUNNING A FUEL PUMP????? DO NOT, I REPEAT..DO NOT HAVE TWO OUTLETS IN THE
TANK (without a header tank) AS IF YOU "UNCORK" ONE THE PUMP WILL DO THE
EASIEST WHICH IS TO SUCK THE AIR AND CAVITATE IF UNDER HIGH POWER SETTING
WHEN IT HAPPENS!

Probably more, but primer is dry so back to work.

I'LL SHUT UP NOW AS WELL ! ))) WAYNE

Scott
Moose 174

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[Scott Aldrich]

Thanks for the info on ART.

I'd swear my O-320 on the PA-22 had an engine driven pump (been so long I'd
only swear on a stack of Murphy manuals though..). Definitely had no header
tanks and a convoluted routing for the front right tank pick up. Didn't
some mid 70's 172's have an H model or something with an engine driven pump?

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:31 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Scott that is why I said "WHOLE BAY"! And ART is Air Research Technology
that makes 18" wing extensions for the C180/182 series. On models without a
factory installed reinforcing web by Cessna they started breaking the main
spar ......as they didn't research in depth enough what they were doing and
ended up fixing customers airplanes and upgrading their kit and installation
drawings to include opening up the wing to install more spar caps to match
the later models construction.

The Delrin bearings pretty much stay the way they are with absolutely
minimum wear. Other than polishing the alum slightly I doubt anyone will see
any considerable change in the friction component...where as using a
bearing...if dirt gets in it or salt air and rust it's going to change.

High wing Pipers PA3/4/5/11/12/14/18 don't run pumps....boost or engine....
and many of them came out of the factory with header tanks as well even
though they are strictly gravity fed.

Even gravity feed on the Rebel drew air into the outlet via the original
tee'd set up of the sight gauge. It took over 10 gallons in a tank to start
a siphon to the gascolator. Anything else was just a sporadic stream of fuel
and air bubbles and the reason for the SB to separate the sight gauge from
the outlet. Having two outlets is basically the same thing if one of them is
uncorked when low on fuel. Hopefully there is sufficient pipe before they
join to work in effect as a header tank from a height high enough to give
head pressure to pop the float needle and allow for the carb bowl to fill. I
brought this drawing of air through a secondary tank outlet up at a
Transport Canada seminar and had full backing of the Airworthiness AME from
TC running the seminar advising all in attendance to heed my advise (based
on document starvation cases he has on file).....and like you said you
installed a header tank to cover your ass so you'll be safe!

Cheers,
Wayne





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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Not sure on the -22 Scott. May very well be. As for the C172.... I have one
(C172-M) in the back field and it only has single 1/2" tank outlets at the
rear of the tank. The Aero-100, that Monty recieved his control yoke out of,
on the other hand has front and rear pickups...but haven't studied it enough
to see if there was a header tank.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Thanks for the info on ART.

I'd swear my O-320 on the PA-22 had an engine driven pump (been so long

I'd

only swear on a stack of Murphy manuals though..). Definitely had no

header

tanks and a convoluted routing for the front right tank pick up. Didn't
some mid 70's 172's have an H model or something with an engine driven

pump?

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of

Wayne

G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:31 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: SR/Moose wings wanted/ordering options

Scott that is why I said "WHOLE BAY"! And ART is Air Research Technology
that makes 18" wing extensions for the C180/182 series. On models without

a

factory installed reinforcing web by Cessna they started breaking the main
spar ......as they didn't research in depth enough what they were doing

and

ended up fixing customers airplanes and upgrading their kit and

installation

drawings to include opening up the wing to install more spar caps to match
the later models construction.

The Delrin bearings pretty much stay the way they are with absolutely
minimum wear. Other than polishing the alum slightly I doubt anyone will

see

any considerable change in the friction component...where as using a
bearing...if dirt gets in it or salt air and rust it's going to change.

High wing Pipers PA3/4/5/11/12/14/18 don't run pumps....boost or

engine....

and many of them came out of the factory with header tanks as well even
though they are strictly gravity fed.

Even gravity feed on the Rebel drew air into the outlet via the original
tee'd set up of the sight gauge. It took over 10 gallons in a tank to

start

a siphon to the gascolator. Anything else was just a sporadic stream of

fuel

and air bubbles and the reason for the SB to separate the sight gauge from
the outlet. Having two outlets is basically the same thing if one of them

is

uncorked when low on fuel. Hopefully there is sufficient pipe before they
join to work in effect as a header tank from a height high enough to give
head pressure to pop the float needle and allow for the carb bowl to fill.

I

brought this drawing of air through a secondary tank outlet up at a
Transport Canada seminar and had full backing of the Airworthiness AME

from

TC running the seminar advising all in attendance to heed my advise (based
on document starvation cases he has on file).....and like you said you
installed a header tank to cover your ass so you'll be safe!

Cheers,
Wayne





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