Wing tips

Bob Patterson · Post by **Bob Patterson** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am

Sorry Bruce !

The Elite has different tail tips (or none !), and the
ailerons have huge spades that require a cutout in the wing
tips. Dave Fife is working on tips for the Moose, which should
be very close to what the Elite needs ...

I think Dave is still looking for a volunteer with
finished Elite wings to help with the fitting & trimming so
he can offer his Hoerner tips for the Elite too. Ideally,
someone CLOSE to Dave in Michigan ! ;-) These tips might
need extra reinforcing around the cutout, which could be built
right into the mould.

I heartily agree with deleting the tips from any
kit orders about to be placed, and using Dave's - they improve
performance and appearance, and can save up to 60 hours (!)
of build time on a Rebel (wing & tail tips).

Also, anyone thinking about the Fife tips, and maybe
the McKenzie STOL kit in the future, can save more cost & build
time by NOT installing the leading edge landing lights, since
these come with the Fife tips for VERY little extra (less than
the cost of the leading edge mounts), and are easy to access.
The STOL kit would cover any lights in the leading edge, anyway,
making them real 'stealth lights' !! ;-) :-)

.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.----------------------------
At 10:14 PM 11/14/03 EST, you wrote:

Yes, Dave's wing tips will fit the Elite just fine. If you are ordering your
kit now, tell MAM do delete the wing and elevator tips for a credit and order
Dave's. Right Bobp?

Bruce

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Dennis Schwettmann · Post by **Dennis Schwettmann** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Could someone tell me where I could find some after market wing tips for a rebel?

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Roger Cole · Post by **Roger Cole** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Dennis,
Dave Fife is making Hoerner-style wing tips for Rebel. His info is:

David K. Fife
3D Composite Aircraft Parts Inc.
1345 Merkle St.
Ortonville, MI. 48462
Phone 248-627-4367
www.stormpages.com/3dcomposite/
Dave Fife <aircrafttips@yahoo.com>

On Wednesday, March 31, 2004, at 05:25 PM, Dennis Schwettmann wrote:

Could someone tell me where I could find some after market wing tips
for a rebel?

---------------------------------
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Bob Patterson · Post by **Bob Patterson** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Hi Dennis !

You can get Hoerner-style wing tips from Dave Fife - at:

Aircrafttips@yahoo.com

They will reduce takeoff distance over 20%, and slightly
(~ 2mph) increase cruise & reduce stall. They also improve low-speed
handling, and are almost ready to slip onto the wing, saving MANY
hours of fiddling ! Dave supplies them with landing lights, as
an extra, - well worthwhile !

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------
On Wednesday 31 March 2004 06:25 pm, you wrote:

Could someone tell me where I could find some after market wing tips for a

rebel?

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Looking at the new Moose tips brochure in the archives I see that murphy
has increased the wingspan. Does this affect the wings G loading
capabilities? Would a set of tips like this give a greater climb rate
increase than the Fife tips? Do the Fife tips increase the wingspan at all?
Thanks Guys
Drew

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Sharp eyes Drew! I caught that as well and remember Dave Fife saying that he
had been cautioned by JDM about the length of Curt's prototype set and in
turn Dave shortened the tip span. Makes you kinda wonder don't it!

Don't think Dave's current tip length is any longer than stock, but
theoretically the wing thinks it's longer from the horner vortices!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:41 AM
Subject: Wing tips

Looking at the new Moose tips brochure in the archives I see that murphy
has increased the wingspan. Does this affect the wings G loading
capabilities? Would a set of tips like this give a greater climb rate
increase than the Fife tips? Do the Fife tips increase the wingspan at

all?

Thanks Guys
Drew

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Rebflyer · Post by **Rebflyer** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Hi Drew, I'll try and answer that for Dave. His prototype will NOT lengthen
the wing span. His intent is to stay within the testing parameters that MAM
has done, so to lengthen the wingspan would lenghten the arm past the strut, etc
etc.
As a side note to all, Dave Fife lost his Mother yesterday. She was 81
and in hospice but had been ailing for the last year. He was close to his
Mother. Curt

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Yeah I had to ask. I've a bunch of foam and fiberglass left over from
another project and I think I'll make a set of wing tips for myself. An
0-320 would be the ideal solution for my planes wimpy climb rate on floats
but my wife thinks my money would be better spent on kids school tuition.
I'm more interested in climb than speed so if I could increase the wingspan
even slightly I think it would help.

At 05:11 PM 4/12/2004 -0400, you wrote:

Sharp eyes Drew! I caught that as well and remember Dave Fife saying that he
had been cautioned by JDM about the length of Curt's prototype set and in
turn Dave shortened the tip span. Makes you kinda wonder don't it!

Don't think Dave's current tip length is any longer than stock, but
theoretically the wing thinks it's longer from the horner vortices!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:41 AM
Subject: Wing tips

Looking at the new Moose tips brochure in the archives I see that murphy
has increased the wingspan. Does this affect the wings G loading
capabilities? Would a set of tips like this give a greater climb rate
increase than the Fife tips? Do the Fife tips increase the wingspan at
all?
Thanks Guys
Drew

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Drew

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Thanks for the reply Curt. Sorry to hear about Dave's Mother. I really like
his tips but I have to go the cheap bastard route first just for my own
satisfaction.

At 07:55 PM 4/12/2004 EDT, you wrote:

Hi Drew, I'll try and answer that for Dave. His prototype will NOT lengthen
the wing span. His intent is to stay within the testing parameters that MAM
has done, so to lengthen the wingspan would lenghten the arm past the

strut, etc

etc.
As a side note to all, Dave Fife lost his Mother yesterday. She was 81
and in hospice but had been ailing for the last year. He was close to his
Mother. Curt

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Drew

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bransom · Post by **bransom** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Drew,
I have an extra set of stock Rebel tips you can have if you want them. Cost
of shipping might make it not worthwhile, but if you want em, give me a
shout. They've not been installed or drilled, trimmed or .... anything.
-Ben Ransom
Davis, California (95616 zip)

-> Hey a little Nitrous for the engine and a little for the pilot to reduce
-> the pucker factor as those trees draw closer :) Right now I just Make my
-> wife walk to the next lake and I pick her up there. It's got a lot more
-> room for taking off and it helps her understand how much we NEED a new
-> motor. My existing tips don't fit very well and are cracking at the
-> trailing edge so I had to do something anyways. I've considered wing fences
-> as well but on all the stol kits I look at it seems the fence is placed at
-> the junction of the ailerons and flaps. I might even do some experimenting
-> with vortex generators.
-> I talked to Dean at murphy today and it seems the main reasons for the
-> new moose tips is the plane was stalling at 58knots on floats plus
-> insurance companies and transport Canada don't like the high wing loading.
-> So the wing area increase makes everyone happy. He also said that a small
-> incease (up to 10") on the rebel wouldn't be a problem. That would make the
-> tip about 22" and I think that's a bit much. I'm planning on something in
-> the 16-18" range.
-> Drew
->
->

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klehman · Post by **klehman** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Drew

I don't know which is better, a drooped, hoerner, or turned up winglet,
but all will generate more lift at the outboard wing section and reduce
drag. That effectively gives you an aerodynamic wingspan increase. Since
the outboard section is generating more lift they do put more bending
stress on the wing for a given load. MAM did suggest not extending the
physical length of the wingtip for Rebels on floats (such as could be
done with Dave Fife's first batch of tips). Apparently they've decided
that isn't an issue at least for the Moose. Tip design is more
significant for our "hershey bar" wings than for tapered wings which
already have somewhat reduced tip drag.

A little nitrous might be the cheapest easiest way to get over the trees ;)

That said I'm wondering what the effect would be of a relatively simple
metal wing fence maybe 4 or 6" high above (or below) the wing but
mounted immediately inboard of the wing tip or even on the existing
fiberglass tip. Might do as much as the drooped tip...

Good luck with the fiberglass work.

Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

Yeah I had to ask. I've a bunch of foam and fiberglass left over from
another project and I think I'll make a set of wing tips for myself. An
0-320 would be the ideal solution for my planes wimpy climb rate on floats
but my wife thinks my money would be better spent on kids school tuition.
I'm more interested in climb than speed so if I could increase the wingspan
even slightly I think it would help.

At 05:11 PM 4/12/2004 -0400, you wrote:

Sharp eyes Drew! I caught that as well and remember Dave Fife saying that he
had been cautioned by JDM about the length of Curt's prototype set and in
turn Dave shortened the tip span. Makes you kinda wonder don't it!

Don't think Dave's current tip length is any longer than stock, but
theoretically the wing thinks it's longer from the horner vortices!

Wayne

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

At 07:50 PM 4/14/2004 +1000, you wrote:

Hello Drew & Ken,
I have over 800 hours on my Tomahawk that has a set of drooped wing tips. My
observations with the drooped tips since installation are:
Reduced stall speed by about 4-5kts.
More spin resistant; less of a wing drop in the stall, more like a
fluttering leaf.
More drag so less speed, definitely no increase in speed as advertised.

Kind regards,
Greg. Elite 724.

Thanks Greg Did You notice any improvement in the climb rate?

Drew

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

At 04:29 PM 4/13/2004 -0400, you wrote:

Drew

I don't know which is better, a drooped, hoerner, or turned up winglet,
but all will generate more lift at the outboard wing section and reduce
drag. That effectively gives you an aerodynamic wingspan increase. Since
the outboard section is generating more lift they do put more bending
stress on the wing for a given load. MAM did suggest not extending the
physical length of the wingtip for Rebels on floats (such as could be
done with Dave Fife's first batch of tips). Apparently they've decided
that isn't an issue at least for the Moose. Tip design is more
significant for our "hershey bar" wings than for tapered wings which
already have somewhat reduced tip drag.

A little nitrous might be the cheapest easiest way to get over the trees ;)

That said I'm wondering what the effect would be of a relatively simple
metal wing fence maybe 4 or 6" high above (or below) the wing but
mounted immediately inboard of the wing tip or even on the existing
fiberglass tip. Might do as much as the drooped tip...

Good luck with the fiberglass work.

Ken

Hey a little Nitrous for the engine and a little for the pilot to reduce
the pucker factor as those trees draw closer :) Right now I just Make my
wife walk to the next lake and I pick her up there. It's got a lot more
room for taking off and it helps her understand how much we NEED a new
motor. My existing tips don't fit very well and are cracking at the
trailing edge so I had to do something anyways. I've considered wing fences
as well but on all the stol kits I look at it seems the fence is placed at
the junction of the ailerons and flaps. I might even do some experimenting
with vortex generators.
I talked to Dean at murphy today and it seems the main reasons for the
new moose tips is the plane was stalling at 58knots on floats plus
insurance companies and transport Canada don't like the high wing loading.
So the wing area increase makes everyone happy. He also said that a small
incease (up to 10") on the rebel wouldn't be a problem. That would make the
tip about 22" and I think that's a bit much. I'm planning on something in
the 16-18" range.
Drew

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klehman · Post by **klehman** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Drew

I just measured my "first run" Fife tips at about 15.5" so installed
they could add about 14.7" perhaps to the wing. Also found my notes
where Dave advised that MAM recommended shortening them to match the MAM
tips if on floats. I think that comment came from Daryl??

I'm curious as to why Greg's drooped tips slowed his cruise but think
I've heard comments like that previously about the drooped design.
Thanks Greg - real life beats theory every time!

Yeah I understand why a fence between the flaps and ailerons helps with
conventional flaps (or for flaps that go down more than the ailerons)
but I don't know if that is the best place for a fence with flaperons
that droop equally along the whole wing.

Ken

Hey a little Nitrous for the engine and a little for the pilot to reduce
the pucker factor as those trees draw closer :) Right now I just Make my
wife walk to the next lake and I pick her up there. It's got a lot more
room for taking off and it helps her understand how much we NEED a new
motor. My existing tips don't fit very well and are cracking at the
trailing edge so I had to do something anyways. I've considered wing fences
as well but on all the stol kits I look at it seems the fence is placed at
the junction of the ailerons and flaps. I might even do some experimenting
with vortex generators.
I talked to Dean at murphy today and it seems the main reasons for the
new moose tips is the plane was stalling at 58knots on floats plus
insurance companies and transport Canada don't like the high wing loading.
So the wing area increase makes everyone happy. He also said that a small
incease (up to 10") on the rebel wouldn't be a problem. That would make the
tip about 22" and I think that's a bit much. I'm planning on something in
the 16-18" range.
Drew

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Thanks for the offer Ben but I'm in experimenting mode now. I've already
started cutting foam for my new super tips.

)
Drew

At 05:44 PM 4/13/2004 -0800, you wrote:

Drew,
I have an extra set of stock Rebel tips you can have if you want them. Cost
of shipping might make it not worthwhile, but if you want em, give me a
shout. They've not been installed or drilled, trimmed or .... anything.
-Ben Ransom
Davis, California (95616 zip)

-> Hey a little Nitrous for the engine and a little for the pilot to reduce
-> the pucker factor as those trees draw closer :) Right now I just Make my
-> wife walk to the next lake and I pick her up there. It's got a lot more
-> room for taking off and it helps her understand how much we NEED a new
-> motor. My existing tips don't fit very well and are cracking at the
-> trailing edge so I had to do something anyways. I've considered wing

fences

-> as well but on all the stol kits I look at it seems the fence is placed at
-> the junction of the ailerons and flaps. I might even do some experimenting
-> with vortex generators.
-> I talked to Dean at murphy today and it seems the main reasons for the
-> new moose tips is the plane was stalling at 58knots on floats plus
-> insurance companies and transport Canada don't like the high wing loading.
-> So the wing area increase makes everyone happy. He also said that a small
-> incease (up to 10") on the rebel wouldn't be a problem. That would make

the

-> tip about 22" and I think that's a bit much. I'm planning on something in
-> the 16-18" range.
-> Drew
->
->

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Drew

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