REBEL MTOW

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

That makes the most sense of everything so far!!! ) Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave King" <kingdws@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: REBEL MTOW

The questioned raised was if it was legal to fly at the higher rates not
if it was smart to.

Snip Snip

Anyway it boils down to if it was legal at the higher weights, and if
flying at the higher
weights would void insurance etc. If the builder has registered at the
higher auw, and
performed his climb test his insurance is valid. The guy who got sucked
into 1650
and goes out and flies with a buddy and full fuel and gets into the 1800
range does
not have insurance if the insurance company finds out. Guess which one

gets

screwed
over if something happens.

Dave

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[Bob Patterson]

I'm with you, Wayne ! I can just imagine what the tail spring
would look like at 3,000 lb !!! :-( Not to mention the flattened
mains ! Don't want to be there !

The factory spec is: + 5.7 G, - 3.8 G - and you are right,
that is ULTIMATE LOAD - so these folks must subtract 50 % for the
normal margin, then subtract another 20 % or so, to go up to 2,000 lb.
(not 3,000 !!!) . This leaves you with about a + 2 G airplane, and
that's not an uncommon gust !!! And you'd better hope it's not a
NEGATIVE gust load, because there's hardly any margin left there !!
These are calculated limits, backed up by ACTUAL testing - I've seen
the sandbags piled up on the test stands, on the wings, and fuselage.
They DO break !

The Rebel's a great airplane, but let's not be silly about it
guys - you can be DEAD right (and <technically> legal) !

The old Murphy purchase agreements said that you could NOT
register it as a "REBEL" if you made major modifications (increasing
the gross limit would definitely qualify !) - it had to be a
"John Smith Special", for obvious reasons.... Wayne's right, if
you insist on being silly, give Murphy a break and change the name !

I do know of cases where MOT have yanked a registration from
a flying Rebel because of a claimed higher gross - it was re-issued
at the factory-specified 1,650 lb on wheels and 1,730 on floats,
and is now flying around quite happily (if perhaps a bit over gross
on takeoff,on floats, sometimes ... ;-) )

Just received my new insurance policy (DOWN slightly from
last year's rate !), and there is a section that says - < NO payment
if you are loaded outside C of G range, or over max. gross>. I think
the insurers would put up a good fight that they meant "the designer's
proven max gross" - not some figure the builder managed to slip
past MOT !! Insurance companies will try for any excuse not to
pay out !

All that said, if you can get away with saying ~ 1,850 lb.,
and are careful to slow down in turbulence, and land gently,
you can certainly ENJOY YOUR REBEL !!! :-)

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------
On Monday 23 February 2004 07:08 pm, you wrote:

I don't want to go with you at 3000lbs and especially still be along for the
landing. Them alum gear legs ain't going to take 3000lbs for very long...
with even smooth landings, let alone some that I've made and managed to roll
away from ....or others that some (and myself) have walked away from (with
the airplane sitting a little closer to the ground!). Let alone the airframe
strength when you consider the substantial wing structure differences to get
the first SR to 3000lb gross safely. (ie double stringer thickness, 60%
thicker leading edge skin, approx 6 times the thickness for front pickup
fittings, lift strut reinforced with internal square 1/8" wall tube x 2 per
side, etc, etc)

Your quick calculations do make sence though and I concure, to a
point,..although I'm pretty sure MAM's 6G's is failure (might be wrong) and
if so then really only a safe 4G airplane at 1650lbs.

The other thing that Ontario Region is catching people for here now,
especially when they go to floats/larger engines and ask for a higher gross
weight is the requirement to meet Minimum HP (which of course translates
into your statement of being able to pass a climb test!). To try that one
out at 3000lbs on a Rebel and we get:

Pmin=0.016W + C x square root of (W cubed) / b

Pmin=0.016 (3000) + 0.018 x square root of (3000 cubed) / 30'

Pmin= 48 + 98.59

Pmin= 146.59 BHP

W=Gross weight in lbs, C= constant of 0.018, b=wings span feet

According to this 150HP O-320 would be sufficent in theory, but I don't want
to be in there when the trees are coming up quick as I know damn well it
won't climb at that weight behind 150HP! You are going to need at least 210
to 250HP I would think to pass a climb test. With that many ponys pulling
you might just have the engine "part ship" and leave with your firewall as a
unit!

Fun to play with numbers....nobody gets hurt sitting in a chair typing on
the keyboard ..ouch wife slapped me in the head 'cause suppers cold!!


Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave King" <kingdws@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: REBEL MTOW

Jerry

I think it might be possible to be legal at a hair over 3000lbs in a Rebel
if it would pass the rate of climb test. To start with you have two
limitations
one is allowable wing loading tempered with the G loading.

First thing is if the airframe is actually strong enough. This is a gross
calculation
but would be close enough to see if it might work. And yes I can do a

proper

analysis of the wing and hand it to TC to watch their eyes roll back in
their heads
(and then not even look at it.)

You have a 6.6G airframe at 1650 so at 4.4G (Utility) you have 2450 lbs at
3075
you are good for 3.5g... All of which provide adequate margins.

At the higher rate you will have more wear , more loose rivets and
accelerated aging all of which
you can inspect for. Ie the smokers around the airplane. Some are normal
pull rivet
probs and other are just going to be hard landings at higher weight. If

you

were truly
playing in dangerous grounds you would be seeing a lot more or that and

all

the time.
And it would start and continue around any high stress point such as
attachments and fittings.
Performing inspections would alert you to where any problems start. That

is

half of it.

The other half is the wing loading. With flaps you could have up to 20.5
lbs per sqr foot
as per CH549. It's actually a formula that takes into account the flaps

but

put it this way
without flaps you are limited to about 13.3 lbs per square foot.

Except for high performance amateur-built aeroplanes, the wing loading M/S
(W/S) shall not be greater than:
(i) For wings without flaps, M/S = 65 Kg/m2 (W/S=13.3 lb/ft2); or
(ii) For wings with flaps, the value calculated using the method of
Appendix A of this Chapter, but not exceeding 100 Kg/m2 (20.4 lb/ft2).

So without flaps and 150 square feet of wing on a rebel you can LEGALLY

fly

away at 1995 lbs or 905kgs

Since it has flaps you can fly away LEGALLY at 3075lbs or 1395kgs

As long as you can pass the minimum rate of climb test at that weight you
are legal.

The above is right off of the page of Transport Canada and Chapter 549. So
it is Good info.
So even the 3000lb guy in Alberta is PERFECTLY legal if he passed the

climb

test.

Dave

I agree with you there has to be a limit,the 3000 lber has to be typo
error,but in regards to inspectors in B.C. they used the formula for load
and square ft. of wing,and climb test,and from what I've been told their
within limits,and far as insurance goes totally legal with Certificate of
Registration. The inspectors here checked with MOT came up with the same
results you are getting,since it is up to builder,problem being their has

to

be a limit. And to repeat myself I was not trying to step on anybody just
stating facts from B.C. end.

THANKS
jerry

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[Walter Klatt]

Not sure if the regs for floats are the same in Oz land, but at
2035 you will not be able to use the 1800 amphibs.

Have never flown at that weight on wheels, so can't say what the
landings are like in that configuration.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Rick Harper
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 4:17 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: REBEL MTOW


G'day again Dave ;

Very pertinent points you make !

I HAVE flown the Rebel with two BIG guys on board,
LOTS of fuel & heaps of
luggage ... and on a bloody windy & turbulent day to
boot ..... it never
even noticed the difference in flight !
(actually flew more stable ... DUH ! ... and sunk a
bit faster on landing
... still VERY controllable)
BUT, .... By the fact that I had originally declared
the "legal" weight on
the identification placard at 750 Kgs ... we were
technically flying
"Illegally"

So, the whole gist of this question (about MTOW), was
to find out what
weights the Rebel was comfortably & SAFELY able to
handle .... So I can
re - declare my MTOW to something that will legally
allow me to do the same
again without fear of retribution from OUR aircraft
nazis down here ...
called CASA (Civil Aviation Safety Authority)

I did some calc's today, and I've decided to declare
our Rebel at 925 Kgs
MTOW. (2035 Lbs)

Please note : The vast majority of the time, the
Rebel will be flying with
1 to 2 people on board, about 5 hrs fuel and minimal
baggage ... and won't
even be up to 750 Kgs !

BUT ... "once in a blue moon", when you NEED to do a
BIG trip, carry enough
fuel to go big distances, (because of lack of
availability in out outback),
and carry all your camping gear too, .... You NEED to
be able to carry
"THAT" amount of weight.

My reasoning is simple :
1) 2 "Normal" sized people 180 Kgs (396 Lbs)
2) 230 Lts of fuel (with FULL tanks) 161 Kgs (354 Lbs)
3) a DECENT amount of baggage , say ... 100 ish Kgs (220 Lbs)

(and an empty weight of 480 Kgs (1056 Lbs)

This all adds up to a tad over 2000 lbs .... Which the
Rebel can obviously
handle safely !

Now, ... Can someone PLEASE tell me what difference I
can expect to find
when I load her up to 2050 Lbs & go redo my stall
tests, flare, etc, etc ???

Many Thanks to all who gave their two cents worth !

It's nice to know that even though us shmucks are
thousands of miles away,
we can still get a hold of all the relevant info we
need to carry on doing
what we love best ... FLYING ! :)

Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Dave
King
Sent: Tuesday, 24 February 2004 1:21 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: REBEL MTOW

The questioned raised was if it was legal to fly at
the higher rates not
if it was smart to. At 3000lbs you are going to really
be out on a branch
but as the builder/owner that is his responsibility.
You can analyze flight
qualities
at the different weights before trying it out and you
can see if it will be
a pig.
I think the gear and its attach structure are just one
of the weak points
on a Rebel.
At 3000 on wheels I'd be worried about the lack of a
deep crush space in
the structure
more than anything. However the Rebel holds up quite
nicely and flies like
a 182 around
2000lbs. That is going to around the practical limit.
At least you can fly
off with two guys,
full fuel and more than a tooth brush legally at that
weight. It then
becomes more than the
single seater (with spare seat) if you registered at 1650.

The structural mods were incorporated to bring back
the useful life of the
airframe so that
you wouldn't have a 500-1000 airframe at 3000lbs. As I
mentioned the
structure will handle
3000 (sort of) and 200 easily but at the expense of
reduced airframe life.
Problems may
show up in fittings, certain structures, never ending
smoking rivets etc
but if you as the
owner are willing to increase your inspections to look
for any problems it
still can
be structurally sound to fly. 150-180hp is fine for
2000, but at 3000 you
are going to need
230+.

The weak point on the Rebel has always been the gear
and it carry
structure. Don't
forget the gear is not designed for the same load
levels as flight loads.
Your gear will
be designed for 3-4G's with some of that load
compensated for by offsetting
the lift
component. The airframe can easily be 2 times
stronger than the gear.

Anyway it boils down to if it was legal at the higher
weights, and if
flying at the higher
weights would void insurance etc. If the builder has
registered at the
higher auw, and
performed his climb test his insurance is valid. The
guy who got sucked
into 1650
and goes out and flies with a buddy and full fuel and
gets into the 1800
range does
not have insurance if the insurance company finds out.
Guess which one gets
screwed
over if something happens.

Dave

I don't want to go with you at 3000lbs and especially

still be along for
the

landing. Them alum gear legs ain't going to take

3000lbs for very long...

with even smooth landings, let alone some that I've

made and managed to
roll

away from ....or others that some (and myself) have

walked away from (with

the airplane sitting a little closer to the ground!).

Let alone the
airframe

strength when you consider the substantial wing

structure differences to
get

the first SR to 3000lb gross safely. (ie double

stringer thickness, 60%

thicker leading edge skin, approx 6 times the

thickness for front pickup

fittings, lift strut reinforced with internal square

1/8" wall tube x 2 per

side, etc, etc)
Wayne

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[Walter Klatt]

Hey, Rick, where I live, much of the float flying is done on salt
water, but we don't have to watch out for crocs and sharks, just
30 pound salmon that try to get our props during take-off. And
the Rebel with its 6061 construction is well suited to salt
water.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Rick Harper
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 2:04 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: REBEL MTOW


G'day Walt ;

The only water we have an abundance of is SALT ....
We're surrounded by it
!
So, no floats for me :)

We were fortunate enough to have a past SAAA (our
equivalent of the EAA),
President , FIGHT the air nazis for 10 years straight,
& he won us the
EXPERIMENTAL Category .... Under which YOU, the
builder, can nominate your
MTOW .... But you must show good cause & do your
flight testing (at various
stages) at THAT weight to prove that it IS safe.

And I have flown / landed up near that weight .... & I
have NO complaints
... BUT, (as is usually the case in aviation), you've
gotta have the brain
IN gear at all times ... lest the first "lesson"
becomes the last !


Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com

[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2004 2:25 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: REBEL MTOW

Not sure if the regs for floats are the same in Oz land, but at
2035 you will not be able to use the 1800 amphibs.

Have never flown at that weight on wheels, so can't say what the
landings are like in that configuration.

Walter




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[Rick Harper]

G'day Don & Jerry !

GREAT stuff to see all this good info' changing hands :)

I only want to up my MTOW for those "odd times" when I am planning a BIG
trip across OZ .... (as I did when planning to fly to Perth last year ...
2500 miles), and discovered, that while there are numerous landing spots ...
the fuel availability is VERY LIMITED in such remote spots.... So you MUST
carry enough fuel with you to do the whole distance between fuel stops.

(You DO all know that OZ (Australia) is pretty close to the same land mass
area as the US of A don't you ?!?!?!) ... and 90% of OZ is DESERT !!!



Rick
541R




-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Dave
King
Sent: Monday, 23 February 2004 4:45 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: REBEL MTOW

Jerry

I think it might be possible to be legal at a hair over 3000lbs in a Rebel
if it would pass the rate of climb test. To start with you have two
limitations
one is allowable wing loading tempered with the G loading.

First thing is if the airframe is actually strong enough. This is a gross
calculation
but would be close enough to see if it might work. And yes I can do a
proper
analysis of the wing and hand it to TC to watch their eyes roll back in
their heads
(and then not even look at it.)

You have a 6.6G airframe at 1650 so at 4.4G (Utility) you have 2450 lbs at
3075
you are good for 3.5g... All of which provide adequate margins.

At the higher rate you will have more wear , more loose rivets and
accelerated aging all of which
you can inspect for. Ie the smokers around the airplane. Some are normal
pull rivet
probs and other are just going to be hard landings at higher weight. If you
were truly
playing in dangerous grounds you would be seeing a lot more or that and all
the time.
And it would start and continue around any high stress point such as
attachments and fittings.
Performing inspections would alert you to where any problems start. That is
half of it.

The other half is the wing loading. With flaps you could have up to 20.5
lbs per sqr foot
as per CH549. It's actually a formula that takes into account the flaps but
put it this way
without flaps you are limited to about 13.3 lbs per square foot.

Except for high performance amateur-built aeroplanes, the wing loading M/S
(W/S) shall not be greater than:
(i) For wings without flaps, M/S = 65 Kg/m2 (W/S=13.3 lb/ft2); or
(ii) For wings with flaps, the value calculated using the method of
Appendix A of this Chapter, but not exceeding 100 Kg/m2 (20.4 lb/ft2).

So without flaps and 150 square feet of wing on a rebel you can LEGALLY fly
away at 1995 lbs or 905kgs

Since it has flaps you can fly away LEGALLY at 3075lbs or 1395kgs

As long as you can pass the minimum rate of climb test at that weight you
are legal.

The above is right off of the page of Transport Canada and Chapter 549. So
it is Good info.
So even the 3000lb guy in Alberta is PERFECTLY legal if he passed the climb
test.

Dave

I agree with you there has to be a limit,the 3000 lber has to be typo
error,but in regards to inspectors in B.C. they used the formula for load
and square ft. of wing,and climb test,and from what I've been told their
within limits,and far as insurance goes totally legal with Certificate of
Registration. The inspectors here checked with MOT came up with the same
results you are getting,since it is up to builder,problem being their has

to

be a limit. And to repeat myself I was not trying to step on anybody just
stating facts from B.C. end.

THANKS
jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: REBEL MTOW

In defense of Bob, Jerry, what Bob stated was (and in some ways still

is)

exact gospel here in Ontario...as to how Mfg Design weight and

modifications

has been handled for at least 10 years! BC and Alberta, that have only

had

the Ministers Delegate inspection program for a couple years, have run
pretty much based on local inspectors personal interpretation of the

rules

(well maybe it was the Ontario inspectors that had a personal

interpretation

in retrospect!!) for many years and was even offering gross weight

increases

to builders/flyers at a whim without taking in to consideration the "G"
factor, landing gear loads and what have you.

FWIW there is a Rebel in Alberta registered at just over 3000lbs! Sure

hope

it's a typo, but considering during a couple hours of scanning the files

a

few months ago I found over 10 Rebels on the Western end of the country

with

registered Gross weights of 2100lb and up. Considering that the Elite,

with

it's beefed front leading edge and other fuselage modifications, is only
designed for 1800lbs something is amiss here!!

It is quite possible that the Western province inspectors have always

been

correct in their interpretation of the regs, especially now considering

the

acting Chief of Standards is stating the kit designer need not be asked

if

a

modification or weight increase is allowed...since the builder is

totally

responsible for the construction of his airplane. In some ways this

opens

the door to a little more freedom in what we do with our airplane, but

it

sure isn't looking out for the poor SOB that goes along as an uninformed
passenger or subsequent owner after the builder sells.

Fly safe guys!
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Purdom" <jerrygoneflying@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: REBEL MTOW

Hi Bob:
I have to disagree with your statement about higher gross weight if

you

read

Wayne post you will find all you have to do is phone the MOT to find

out

that your info is incorrect including about the insurance???I sure

don't

mean to step on you or anything but check with MOT and your insurer.

THANKS
jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: REBEL MTOW

NOT

GW -

when

to

UNDER

a

bit,

bit

Murphy

spring

much,

??)

Something

the

Super smooooth

really

soaks

were

never

higher

...

like

as stronger

Of

Walter

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The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality is the
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A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will
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[Rick Harper]

Thanks Curt ! .... But I made my gear legs ... copied from a Super Cub ... &
Gordon's "bits" don't fit ! :(

(gotta design my own version)


Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Rebflyer@aol.com
Sent: Monday, 23 February 2004 10:37 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: REBEL MTOW

Hi Rick,
I too used the coil spring gear system, and I was very happy with it. (I'm
happier now on amphib floats but that's another story).
What I had on the pivot end of the gear was Gordon Mohrs bushed fittings.
They worked great, and after 150 hrs on wheels the removal showed no wear.
Mister Mohr still is on this page so give him a try, they will be worth it.
Curt N97MR



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[Rick Harper]

Thanks Bob !

I'll keep all this in mind when doing my phase 1 testing next week :)

I KNEW the REBEL could handle the weight ... but I wanted to hear from
others who'd already done it .... Nice to be reassured :)


Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Monday, 23 February 2004 10:55 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: REBEL MTOW


Hi Rick !

I wouldn't worry too much about raising the weight limit - it won't
fly that much different. It's nice that it is legal for you - it is NOT
in Canada !! Builders here <must> go with the designers specified GW -
a couple have tried to sneak through more, but have to reverse it when
caught (and, in the meantime, their insurer has a complete 'out' not to
pay claims, and they could be subject to fines) :-( !!

I know of several Rebels that flew for years at 2,000 lb gross
weight on amphibs, with no problems. Of course, they were always UNDER
the factory limit when landed ! ;-) ;-) :-)
As you say, the stall speed increases a bit, rate of climb goes down a bit,
and it's a bit more solid in rough air - and you might want to fly a bit
slower when it's rough, beceause your G limits are reduced !

For the tail - if you've added the heavier piece joining the top
fuse bulkhead to the fin post, as Wayne suggests - and shown on Murphy
web site, that's about it. You might check that the extra tail spring
compressing doesn't change the trail angle of the tailwheel too much,
or you might get shimmy problems..... and adjust the tire (tyre ??)
pressures a bit, too.

Gord Mohr supplies some very nice fittings to beef up the gear
pivot points - I think photos are on Wayne's site, or here in the
archives. They're steel, with brass bushings - very nice ! Something
like the "Alaska" safety cables on the gear are a good idea, too !

I can almost see your smile now, when you fly it !!! :-)
You won't believe the climb angle with your new engine ! Enjoy !!!

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------
On Sunday 22 February 2004 01:32 pm, you wrote:

I have the 1650 lb version .... But with Chrome - moly legs as per the

Super

Cub ... with coil compression springs ... landings are VERY soft &

smooooth

(bit bouncy if you really let it drop) , but the undercarriage really

soaks

it up. I am redesigning the pivot points, as I understand they were never
really meant to "pivot that much".

Main things I need to know were what the stall characteristics at higher
weights were like, and if there were any particular weak points ... like

as

you said, the tail.

Did Daryl indicate exactly WHERE the tail could be beefed up ? IE:

stronger

strut design ?

Thanks !


Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of

Walter

Klatt
Sent: Monday, 23 February 2004 2:06 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: REBEL MTOW

Don't know what your serial number is, but assume you have the
1650 wing upgrade. There is also an .032 leading edge upgrade
which further strengthens it. Then depending what gear you have,
that can definitely be a weak point. At higher landing weights,
you will want to be extra gentle on the touchdowns. On water
that's easy, but can be a challenge on a short paved runway on a
hot sunny day and a gusting cross wind.

Besides that, I have been told by Darryl that the tail may be a
weak spot on the Rebel, or at least it has not been fully tested
for higher gross weights and higher hp engines. That's why they
redesigned it for the Elite.

Another consideration is floats. In Canada, your flotation needs
to be able to support 1.8 times your gross weight. So, if you are
using the Murphy 1800 amphibs with 1750 flotation each, the max
registered gross weight can be up to 1944 pounds.

I'll send you an email offline about a few other points.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Rick Harper
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:38 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: REBEL MTOW


G'day from HOT 'n' Sunny OZ !

OK you lot .... VH-REB has just passed it's
inspection today
....
After retro fitting an IO-320 ....
(somewhat modified ... 180 HP)

The plane only gained 10Kg in weight .... (Even after
moving the engine
FORWARD about 3") ...
BUT .. I had to add 10Kg of lead shot near the
tailpost to get the C of G
back to where I wanted it .. so she gained 20Kgs all
up ... I'm happy w
ith
that figure.

Now, ... I want to do my Stage 1 test flying / proving
period and test he
r out
at 850Kg MTOW ... (100 above the norm')... I have 230 lts
capacity in
the tanks
(55 US gal's) ....and I'm not small, so I want to keep
the "Utility
"
capability thing happening .... I do LOVE being able to
get in & out of
small/short/"difficult" strips :-) :-) :-)

I have spoken to several RV 6 owner builders who have
done the same ... a
nd
they are operating fine.

I KNOW the Rebel can handle the extra weight , no
problems .... But I'
d like
to hear some opinions and ideas from some of you out
there on this one.

Has any one "over/up there" put their Experimental
Certificate weight
at
850Kgs ?

Do we have any data on what to expect with the extra weight ?
(obviously it's going to have extra sink on flare and
a higher stall
figure) ... but I'd like to hear from some of you who
have done anythin
g
similar.

(If you are worried about "someone" ...IE: Government
types over ther
e or here
listening in on the chat page, please write to me direct at
rjwh@optusnet.com.au <mailto:rjwh@optusnet.com.au> )

What I'm proposing IS legal under the rules of the
EXPERIMENTAL CATEGOR
Y ....
But I'd like some feedback before I throw myself (&
plane) into the wil
d
blue yonder :-)

Thanks Guys !

Rick

Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007




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[Rick Harper]

G'day & Thanks Wayne !!!

I am only looking to increase the MTOW to 850 Kgs ..... and I know it flies
OK at that level ... just wanted some input from others who may have
already been there.

It has been suggested that the tailfeathers might be a weak point .... Got
any input / suggestions that might help me out on this item Wayne ? ... you
CAN write to me direct on rjwh@optusnet.com.au if you'd like to keep it
"unofficial" ... I value & would appreciate your opinion either way !

Thanks !

Rick

Subject: Re: REBEL MTOW

Bob, the first paragraph used to be the accepted fact, in at least Ontario,
where it was beat into us that you can't change the Designers gross weight
or modify the design with out their permission unless you call it a Jack
Flash special. No longer fact... as the builder is (and always has been)
responsible for end design/construction and TC doesn't want to know what has
been changed etc as it would be construed that they reviewed and agreed with
your changes. I don't go along with this logic to the full extent it can be
taken...like putting 3000lb gross on a Rebel if you so chose..and think
anyone that wants to play too much should at least cut the kit mfg/plans
supplier some slack and change the model name. Even I added a L.E. on mine
to call it a Rebel L.E. to hint there were a few changes performed when I
put mine together.

I have an actual letter from the Acting Chief of Standards from Transport
Canada (Federal Level) in Ottawa that states just this (ie: the builder does
not need the permission of a kit manufacturer to change the gross weight or
design) but promised I would never post it on a public forum. Didn't promise
I wouldn't talk about it!


Cheers,
Wayne





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[Rick Harper]

G'day again Dave ;

Very pertinent points you make !

I HAVE flown the Rebel with two BIG guys on board, LOTS of fuel & heaps of
luggage ... and on a bloody windy & turbulent day to boot ..... it never
even noticed the difference in flight !
(actually flew more stable ... DUH ! ... and sunk a bit faster on landing
... still VERY controllable)
BUT, .... By the fact that I had originally declared the "legal" weight on
the identification placard at 750 Kgs ... we were technically flying
"Illegally"

So, the whole gist of this question (about MTOW), was to find out what
weights the Rebel was comfortably & SAFELY able to handle .... So I can
re - declare my MTOW to something that will legally allow me to do the same
again without fear of retribution from OUR aircraft nazis down here ...
called CASA (Civil Aviation Safety Authority)

I did some calc's today, and I've decided to declare our Rebel at 925 Kgs
MTOW. (2035 Lbs)

Please note : The vast majority of the time, the Rebel will be flying with
1 to 2 people on board, about 5 hrs fuel and minimal baggage ... and won't
even be up to 750 Kgs !

BUT ... "once in a blue moon", when you NEED to do a BIG trip, carry enough
fuel to go big distances, (because of lack of availability in out outback),
and carry all your camping gear too, .... You NEED to be able to carry
"THAT" amount of weight.

My reasoning is simple :
1) 2 "Normal" sized people 180 Kgs (396 Lbs)
2) 230 Lts of fuel (with FULL tanks) 161 Kgs (354 Lbs)
3) a DECENT amount of baggage , say ... 100 ish Kgs (220 Lbs)

(and an empty weight of 480 Kgs (1056 Lbs)

This all adds up to a tad over 2000 lbs .... Which the Rebel can obviously
handle safely !

Now, ... Can someone PLEASE tell me what difference I can expect to find
when I load her up to 2050 Lbs & go redo my stall tests, flare, etc, etc ???

Many Thanks to all who gave their two cents worth !

It's nice to know that even though us shmucks are thousands of miles away,
we can still get a hold of all the relevant info we need to carry on doing
what we love best ... FLYING ! :)

Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Dave
King
Sent: Tuesday, 24 February 2004 1:21 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: REBEL MTOW

The questioned raised was if it was legal to fly at the higher rates not
if it was smart to. At 3000lbs you are going to really be out on a branch
but as the builder/owner that is his responsibility. You can analyze flight
qualities
at the different weights before trying it out and you can see if it will be
a pig.
I think the gear and its attach structure are just one of the weak points
on a Rebel.
At 3000 on wheels I'd be worried about the lack of a deep crush space in
the structure
more than anything. However the Rebel holds up quite nicely and flies like
a 182 around
2000lbs. That is going to around the practical limit. At least you can fly
off with two guys,
full fuel and more than a tooth brush legally at that weight. It then
becomes more than the
single seater (with spare seat) if you registered at 1650.

The structural mods were incorporated to bring back the useful life of the
airframe so that
you wouldn't have a 500-1000 airframe at 3000lbs. As I mentioned the
structure will handle
3000 (sort of) and 200 easily but at the expense of reduced airframe life.
Problems may
show up in fittings, certain structures, never ending smoking rivets etc
but if you as the
owner are willing to increase your inspections to look for any problems it
still can
be structurally sound to fly. 150-180hp is fine for 2000, but at 3000 you
are going to need
230+.

The weak point on the Rebel has always been the gear and it carry
structure. Don't
forget the gear is not designed for the same load levels as flight loads.
Your gear will
be designed for 3-4G's with some of that load compensated for by offsetting
the lift
component. The airframe can easily be 2 times stronger than the gear.

Anyway it boils down to if it was legal at the higher weights, and if
flying at the higher
weights would void insurance etc. If the builder has registered at the
higher auw, and
performed his climb test his insurance is valid. The guy who got sucked
into 1650
and goes out and flies with a buddy and full fuel and gets into the 1800
range does
not have insurance if the insurance company finds out. Guess which one gets
screwed
over if something happens.

Dave

I don't want to go with you at 3000lbs and especially still be along for

the

landing. Them alum gear legs ain't going to take 3000lbs for very long...
with even smooth landings, let alone some that I've made and managed to

roll

away from ....or others that some (and myself) have walked away from (with
the airplane sitting a little closer to the ground!). Let alone the

airframe

strength when you consider the substantial wing structure differences to

get

the first SR to 3000lb gross safely. (ie double stringer thickness, 60%
thicker leading edge skin, approx 6 times the thickness for front pickup
fittings, lift strut reinforced with internal square 1/8" wall tube x 2 per
side, etc, etc)
Wayne

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[Rick Harper]

G'day Walt ;

The only water we have an abundance of is SALT .... We're surrounded by it
!
So, no floats for me :)

We were fortunate enough to have a past SAAA (our equivalent of the EAA),
President , FIGHT the air nazis for 10 years straight, & he won us the
EXPERIMENTAL Category .... Under which YOU, the builder, can nominate your
MTOW .... But you must show good cause & do your flight testing (at various
stages) at THAT weight to prove that it IS safe.

And I have flown / landed up near that weight .... & I have NO complaints
... BUT, (as is usually the case in aviation), you've gotta have the brain
IN gear at all times ... lest the first "lesson" becomes the last !


Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2004 2:25 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: REBEL MTOW

Not sure if the regs for floats are the same in Oz land, but at
2035 you will not be able to use the 1800 amphibs.

Have never flown at that weight on wheels, so can't say what the
landings are like in that configuration.

Walter




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[Mike Davis]

As your message was posted to the list, you're still registered... list
registration is maintained on my server, not your system... so that at least
should not have been affected by your systems problems.

Welcome back, Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Harper" <rjwh@optusnet.com.au>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: REBEL MTOW

OK ... here goes

JUST got the bloody computer bcak from the shop today ... been gone for
nearly a week .... So if I haven't answered any e-mails from you lot,

thats

the reason why !

I'm not even sure if this e-mail will post back onto the Rebel Builders

List

, as I lost just about EVERYTHING ...

If you guys would all like to drop me a line ... I will re-enter you

e-mail

addresses & details all over again ... (I lost over 400 e-mail addresses
!!!)

PS HOW do I re-register for the Builders List ????

Thanks

Rick
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: REBEL MTOW

Hey, Rick, where I live, much of the float flying is done on salt
water, but we don't have to watch out for crocs and sharks, just
30 pound salmon that try to get our props during take-off. And
the Rebel with its 6061 construction is well suited to salt
water.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Rick Harper
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 2:04 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: REBEL MTOW


G'day Walt ;

The only water we have an abundance of is SALT ....
We're surrounded by it
!
So, no floats for me :)

We were fortunate enough to have a past SAAA (our
equivalent of the EAA),
President , FIGHT the air nazis for 10 years straight,
& he won us the
EXPERIMENTAL Category .... Under which YOU, the
builder, can nominate your
MTOW .... But you must show good cause & do your
flight testing (at various
stages) at THAT weight to prove that it IS safe.

And I have flown / landed up near that weight .... & I
have NO complaints
... BUT, (as is usually the case in aviation), you've
gotta have the brain
IN gear at all times ... lest the first "lesson"
becomes the last !


Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com

[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2004 2:25 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: REBEL MTOW

Not sure if the regs for floats are the same in Oz land, but at
2035 you will not be able to use the 1800 amphibs.

Have never flown at that weight on wheels, so can't say what the
landings are like in that configuration.

Walter




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[Rick Harper]

OK ... here goes

JUST got the bloody computer bcak from the shop today ... been gone for
nearly a week .... So if I haven't answered any e-mails from you lot, thats
the reason why !

I'm not even sure if this e-mail will post back onto the Rebel Builders List
, as I lost just about EVERYTHING ...

If you guys would all like to drop me a line ... I will re-enter you e-mail
addresses & details all over again ... (I lost over 400 e-mail addresses
!!!)

PS HOW do I re-register for the Builders List ????

Thanks

Rick
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: REBEL MTOW

Hey, Rick, where I live, much of the float flying is done on salt
water, but we don't have to watch out for crocs and sharks, just
30 pound salmon that try to get our props during take-off. And
the Rebel with its 6061 construction is well suited to salt
water.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Rick Harper
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 2:04 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: REBEL MTOW


G'day Walt ;

The only water we have an abundance of is SALT ....
We're surrounded by it
!
So, no floats for me :)

We were fortunate enough to have a past SAAA (our
equivalent of the EAA),
President , FIGHT the air nazis for 10 years straight,
& he won us the
EXPERIMENTAL Category .... Under which YOU, the
builder, can nominate your
MTOW .... But you must show good cause & do your
flight testing (at various
stages) at THAT weight to prove that it IS safe.

And I have flown / landed up near that weight .... & I
have NO complaints
... BUT, (as is usually the case in aviation), you've
gotta have the brain
IN gear at all times ... lest the first "lesson"
becomes the last !


Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com

[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2004 2:25 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: REBEL MTOW

Not sure if the regs for floats are the same in Oz land, but at
2035 you will not be able to use the 1800 amphibs.

Have never flown at that weight on wheels, so can't say what the
landings are like in that configuration.

Walter




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