TSBC Sea plane Safety Studies

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

You're right Warren as thanks to the almost 12 " clearance on the Wip mains
they skidded on the water instead of penetrating and this started the
forward roll.

The Compair's tail dragger floats would be very similar to landing in VERY
wet snow on penetration skis and you better be ready with full power and up
elevator!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren Montgomery" <monty@emirates.net.ae>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 11:00 AM
Subject: TSBC Sea plane Safety Studies

Further to ' Expensive way to wash an airplane'

The following Transportation Safety Board of Canada reports are a must
reading.........
I'll be installing a gear warning system of some sort.

Wayne, With the forward rotation following mains contact, I think the
plane was going over even if it didn't have the nose wheels down.
Compair certainly has an interesting design for thier 3450 and lower
amphibs with the tail wheel . These mains also protrude less.
The 4000-6000 are just plain UGLY though.


A SAFETY STUDY OF SURVIVABILITY IN SEAPLANE ACCIDENTS - 1994
Report Number SA9401
<http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/stu ... sa9401.asp>

A SAFETY STUDY OF PILOTING SKILLS, ABILITIES, AND KNOWLEDGE IN SEAPLANE
OPERATIONS - 1993
Report Number SSA93001
<http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/stu ... sa9301.asp>

REPORT OF A SAFETY STUDY ON VFR FLIGHT INTO ADVERSE WEATHER - Adopted 13
November 1990
REPORT NO. 90-SP002
<http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/stu ... 0sp002.asp>



Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

http://skywagons.airbase1.com/uploads/937-C206F.mpg

Watch it 5 or 6 times before each float flying season, and again half way
through, and you should have a good season of looking out the window and
verify gear position before landing!

Wayne

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[Warren Montgomery]

Further to ' Expensive way to wash an airplane'

The following Transportation Safety Board of Canada reports are a must
reading.........
I'll be installing a gear warning system of some sort.

Wayne, With the forward rotation following mains contact, I think the
plane was going over even if it didn't have the nose wheels down.
Compair certainly has an interesting design for thier 3450 and lower
amphibs with the tail wheel . These mains also protrude less.
The 4000-6000 are just plain UGLY though.


A SAFETY STUDY OF SURVIVABILITY IN SEAPLANE ACCIDENTS - 1994
Report Number SA9401
<http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/stu ... sa9401.asp>

A SAFETY STUDY OF PILOTING SKILLS, ABILITIES, AND KNOWLEDGE IN SEAPLANE
OPERATIONS - 1993
Report Number SSA93001
<http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/stu ... sa9301.asp>

REPORT OF A SAFETY STUDY ON VFR FLIGHT INTO ADVERSE WEATHER - Adopted 13
November 1990
REPORT NO. 90-SP002
<http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/stu ... 0sp002.asp>



Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

http://skywagons.airbase1.com/uploads/937-C206F.mpg

Watch it 5 or 6 times before each float flying season, and again half way
through, and you should have a good season of looking out the window and
verify gear position before landing!

Wayne




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[Mike Kimball]

When I'm ready for my amphibs I think on the gear up side of the gear switch
I'll put a picture of a lake, and on the other side I'll put a picture of a
runway. Then all I have to do is match the picture to what I see out the
window.

Mike Kimball
SR #044

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Warren Montgomery
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 7:01 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: TSBC Sea plane Safety Studies


Further to ' Expensive way to wash an airplane'

The following Transportation Safety Board of Canada reports are a must
reading.........
I'll be installing a gear warning system of some sort.

Wayne, With the forward rotation following mains contact, I think the
plane was going over even if it didn't have the nose wheels down.
Compair certainly has an interesting design for thier 3450 and lower
amphibs with the tail wheel . These mains also protrude less.
The 4000-6000 are just plain UGLY though.


A SAFETY STUDY OF SURVIVABILITY IN SEAPLANE ACCIDENTS - 1994
Report Number SA9401
<http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/stu ... sa9401.asp>

A SAFETY STUDY OF PILOTING SKILLS, ABILITIES, AND KNOWLEDGE IN SEAPLANE
OPERATIONS - 1993
Report Number SSA93001
<http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/stu ... sa9301.asp>

REPORT OF A SAFETY STUDY ON VFR FLIGHT INTO ADVERSE WEATHER - Adopted 13
November 1990
REPORT NO. 90-SP002
<http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/stu ... 0sp002.asp>



Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

http://skywagons.airbase1.com/uploads/937-C206F.mpg

Watch it 5 or 6 times before each float flying season, and again half way
through, and you should have a good season of looking out the window and
verify gear position before landing!

Wayne




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[Walter Klatt]

You can always show that video, of the 206 flipping nose in, to
every passenger, and then if they are still willing to fly with
you, they will be sure to help you with your gear check routine.

I have small LAND or WATER placards at the selector valve pointer
locations. On my gear, I have red paint on the knuckles of the
front gear, that is easy to spot and indicates a land gear
position.

I personally believe sight checking is the only sure way to do
it. Most of the accidents I know of, are ones that had fancy
indicator systems installed.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
klehman@albedo.net
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 8:20 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: TSBC Sea plane Safety Studies


Yup I agree but I think it might be worth going one
further because
MAM's left/right selector switch is a trap IMO.

The knob really should move up and down.

Personally I planned a duck swimming in the lake on
top and a dusty road
runner on bottom :) Color keying it so it shows black
when down and
blue when up might be a thought as well but nothing
beats looking out
the window. Unfortunately that doesn't help the
scenario that I've read
about the most which is an interupted routine and not
checking it every
time. Assuming the gear is up because "I always
retract it after
takeoff" is a favourite. Getting in the habit of not
checking when
operating on welded gear for part of the year is a
trap as well. Then
there are the retractable wheel/skiis in winter that
add even more fun...

So it doesn't hurt to also explain to any passenger
how to check the
gear. They always took an interest once I mentioned
how exciting it
would be to mess it up ;)

Ken

Mike Kimball wrote:

When I'm ready for my amphibs I think on the gear up

side of the gear switch

I'll put a picture of a lake, and on the other side

I'll put a picture of a

runway. Then all I have to do is match the picture

to what I see out the

window.

Mike Kimball
SR #044

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[klehman]

Yup I agree but I think it might be worth going one further because
MAM's left/right selector switch is a trap IMO.

The knob really should move up and down.

Personally I planned a duck swimming in the lake on top and a dusty road
runner on bottom :) Color keying it so it shows black when down and
blue when up might be a thought as well but nothing beats looking out
the window. Unfortunately that doesn't help the scenario that I've read
about the most which is an interupted routine and not checking it every
time. Assuming the gear is up because "I always retract it after
takeoff" is a favourite. Getting in the habit of not checking when
operating on welded gear for part of the year is a trap as well. Then
there are the retractable wheel/skiis in winter that add even more fun...

So it doesn't hurt to also explain to any passenger how to check the
gear. They always took an interest once I mentioned how exciting it
would be to mess it up ;)

Ken

Mike Kimball wrote:

When I'm ready for my amphibs I think on the gear up side of the gear switch
I'll put a picture of a lake, and on the other side I'll put a picture of a
runway. Then all I have to do is match the picture to what I see out the
window.

Mike Kimball
SR #044

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Ken !

FWIW, several people have mounted the MAM selector sideways,
so up is UP .... ;-)

I like Keith Kinden's approach, though - he uses coloured
lights, yellow for land, and blue for water, ??? ... IIRC !
(caution)
......bobp

--------------------------------------orig.---------------------------
At 11:20 PM 10/24/03 -0400, you wrote:

Yup I agree but I think it might be worth going one further because
MAM's left/right selector switch is a trap IMO.

The knob really should move up and down.

Personally I planned a duck swimming in the lake on top and a dusty road
runner on bottom :) Color keying it so it shows black when down and
blue when up might be a thought as well but nothing beats looking out
the window. Unfortunately that doesn't help the scenario that I've read
about the most which is an interupted routine and not checking it every
time. Assuming the gear is up because "I always retract it after
takeoff" is a favourite. Getting in the habit of not checking when
operating on welded gear for part of the year is a trap as well. Then
there are the retractable wheel/skiis in winter that add even more fun...

So it doesn't hurt to also explain to any passenger how to check the
gear. They always took an interest once I mentioned how exciting it
would be to mess it up ;)

Ken

Mike Kimball wrote:

When I'm ready for my amphibs I think on the gear up side of the gear switch
I'll put a picture of a lake, and on the other side I'll put a picture of a
runway. Then all I have to do is match the picture to what I see out the
window.

Mike Kimball
SR #044

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[drew]

So would that be up for water or up for land? I try to stay extrra alert
when in the pattern as to my gear condition. My Wife is also quite
interested in self preservation and starts offering to pump the gear about
10 miles out. :)



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <apat@istar.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: TSBC Sea plane Safety Studies

Hi Ken !

FWIW, several people have mounted the MAM selector sideways,
so up is UP .... ;-)

I like Keith Kinden's approach, though - he uses coloured
lights, yellow for land, and blue for water, ??? ... IIRC !
(caution)
......bobp

--------------------------------------orig.---------------------------
At 11:20 PM 10/24/03 -0400, you wrote:

Yup I agree but I think it might be worth going one further because
MAM's left/right selector switch is a trap IMO.

The knob really should move up and down.

Personally I planned a duck swimming in the lake on top and a dusty road
runner on bottom :) Color keying it so it shows black when down and
blue when up might be a thought as well but nothing beats looking out
the window. Unfortunately that doesn't help the scenario that I've read
about the most which is an interupted routine and not checking it every
time. Assuming the gear is up because "I always retract it after
takeoff" is a favourite. Getting in the habit of not checking when
operating on welded gear for part of the year is a trap as well. Then
there are the retractable wheel/skiis in winter that add even more fun...

So it doesn't hurt to also explain to any passenger how to check the
gear. They always took an interest once I mentioned how exciting it
would be to mess it up ;)

Ken

Mike Kimball wrote:

When I'm ready for my amphibs I think on the gear up side of the gear

switch

I'll put a picture of a lake, and on the other side I'll put a picture

of a

runway. Then all I have to do is match the picture to what I see out

the

window.

Mike Kimball
SR #044

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[Peter, Juliet, and Wanaao]

Wayne where is that pic of Wayne's selector that you mentioned. I
looked all over for it in the files.

Peter


On Saturday, October 25, 2003, at 11:05 AM, Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ken !

I don't know about water discrimination, but I have heard
of folks using Canadian Tire 'electronic measuring' devices as
a kind of radar altimeter, to judge height above ground ! Apparently
they are accurate up to about 40 feet, at least....

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 12:38 PM 10/25/03 -0400, you wrote:

Keith's lights comes on when the pressure is up I presume since the
selector position itself is only a suggested gear position...

I always expected someone to come up with a surface discriminator that
could detect the difference between hard surface or water from 20 feet
or so for a warning device. Must be some electromagnetic frequency
that
water is good at absorbing compared to land. A small version of a
microwave oven at 2.45 ghz could have multiple uses perhaps ;)

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ken !

FWIW, several people have mounted the MAM selector sideways,
so up is UP .... ;-)

I like Keith Kinden's approach, though - he uses coloured
lights, yellow for land, and blue for water, ??? ... IIRC !
(caution)

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[klehman]

Keith's lights comes on when the pressure is up I presume since the
selector position itself is only a suggested gear position...

I always expected someone to come up with a surface discriminator that
could detect the difference between hard surface or water from 20 feet
or so for a warning device. Must be some electromagnetic frequency that
water is good at absorbing compared to land. A small version of a
microwave oven at 2.45 ghz could have multiple uses perhaps ;)

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ken !

FWIW, several people have mounted the MAM selector sideways,
so up is UP .... ;-)

I like Keith Kinden's approach, though - he uses coloured
lights, yellow for land, and blue for water, ??? ... IIRC !
(caution)

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Ken !

I don't know about water discrimination, but I have heard
of folks using Canadian Tire 'electronic measuring' devices as
a kind of radar altimeter, to judge height above ground ! Apparently
they are accurate up to about 40 feet, at least....

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 12:38 PM 10/25/03 -0400, you wrote:

Keith's lights comes on when the pressure is up I presume since the
selector position itself is only a suggested gear position...

I always expected someone to come up with a surface discriminator that
could detect the difference between hard surface or water from 20 feet
or so for a warning device. Must be some electromagnetic frequency that
water is good at absorbing compared to land. A small version of a
microwave oven at 2.45 ghz could have multiple uses perhaps ;)

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ken !

FWIW, several people have mounted the MAM selector sideways,
so up is UP .... ;-)

I like Keith Kinden's approach, though - he uses coloured
lights, yellow for land, and blue for water, ??? ... IIRC !
(caution)

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[klehman]

FWIW I always click the button for "New" files and the list is pretty
obvious then for recently posted files. That narrowed the choice to 3
this morning for instance.
Ken

Warren Montgomery wrote:

GCYP panel.jpg
<https://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com/fil ... +panel.jpg>

I concure Peter, I find it frustating to find pics as posted.
Would everyone be so kind as to provide a file extension when refering
to saved pics.

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[klehman]

Hi David

Most radio altimeters work just fine over water or land. The Navy boys
even run their autopilots off them I believe. More radio than radar
despite the terminology. At least I think they are much lower freq. than
microwave? We don't need certified and 2500 feet of altitude though.

I'm thinking cheap, low power, low range, DIY. 2.45ghz just came to
mind because we know water absorbs that very efficiently in our kitchen
microwave ovens. GHZ ic amplifiers are only a buck or two and I even
have some here but not sure I want to risk cooking my eye lens playing
with 2.45 ghz. Fortunately I really don't understand much about
microwave frequency circuit design anyway.

Another thought - I wonder if one of those infrared thermometers would
detect cool water compared to hot asphalt at 10 feet minimum on a
typical summer day? I believe I could design a useful warning system
around something that only worked even say half of the time.
(Autoresetting but temporarilly manually deactivated after the visual
gear check or something.)

Ken

David Ricker wrote:

Ken

You may be onto something there, I read a story recently where a
(non-amphibian) plane almost touched down on water at night because

their radar

altimeter didn't pick up the surface of the ocean, said it was

because it was

glassy calm but that is hard to believe for the ocean. Would be a

bit costly

though.....

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[David Ricker]

Ken

You may be onto something there, I read a story recently where a
(non-amphibian) plane almost touched down on water at night because their radar
altimeter didn't pick up the surface of the ocean, said it was because it was
glassy calm but that is hard to believe for the ocean. Would be a bit costly
though.....

Dave

klehman@albedo.net wrote:

Keith's lights comes on when the pressure is up I presume since the
selector position itself is only a suggested gear position...

I always expected someone to come up with a surface discriminator that
could detect the difference between hard surface or water from 20 feet
or so for a warning device. Must be some electromagnetic frequency that
water is good at absorbing compared to land. A small version of a
microwave oven at 2.45 ghz could have multiple uses perhaps ;)

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ken !

FWIW, several people have mounted the MAM selector sideways,
so up is UP .... ;-)

I like Keith Kinden's approach, though - he uses coloured
lights, yellow for land, and blue for water, ??? ... IIRC !
(caution)

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Canada





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[drew]

cool idea Bob a radar altimeter for under $100. Just what a guy needs for
those glassy water landings far from shore.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <apat@istar.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: TSBC Sea plane Safety Studies

Hi Ken !

I don't know about water discrimination, but I have heard
of folks using Canadian Tire 'electronic measuring' devices as
a kind of radar altimeter, to judge height above ground ! Apparently
they are accurate up to about 40 feet, at least....

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 12:38 PM 10/25/03 -0400, you wrote:

Keith's lights comes on when the pressure is up I presume since the
selector position itself is only a suggested gear position...

I always expected someone to come up with a surface discriminator that
could detect the difference between hard surface or water from 20 feet
or so for a warning device. Must be some electromagnetic frequency that
water is good at absorbing compared to land. A small version of a
microwave oven at 2.45 ghz could have multiple uses perhaps ;)

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ken !

FWIW, several people have mounted the MAM selector sideways,
so up is UP .... ;-)

I like Keith Kinden's approach, though - he uses coloured
lights, yellow for land, and blue for water, ??? ... IIRC !
(caution)

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[Warren Montgomery]

GCYP panel.jpg
<https://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com/fil ... +panel.jpg>

I concure Peter, I find it frustating to find pics as posted.
Would everyone be so kind as to provide a file extension when refering
to saved pics.
Many many thanks
Warren

Peter, Juliet, and Wanaao wrote:

Wayne where is that pic of Wayne's selector that you mentioned. I
looked all over for it in the files.

Peter


On Saturday, October 25, 2003, at 11:05 AM, Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ken !

I don't know about water discrimination, but I have heard
of folks using Canadian Tire 'electronic measuring' devices as
a kind of radar altimeter, to judge height above ground ! Apparently
they are accurate up to about 40 feet, at least....

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 12:38 PM 10/25/03 -0400, you wrote:

Keith's lights comes on when the pressure is up I presume since the
selector position itself is only a suggested gear position...

I always expected someone to come up with a surface discriminator that
could detect the difference between hard surface or water from 20 feet
or so for a warning device. Must be some electromagnetic frequency
that
water is good at absorbing compared to land. A small version of a
microwave oven at 2.45 ghz could have multiple uses perhaps ;)

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

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