drilled bolts/castle nuts/cotter pin

[Murray and Carol Cherkas]

Listen up everyone

If you haven't followed this thread, you should consider it.This is really
important.

WAYNE: you mentioned using castle nuts and cotter pins wherever there is
movement on a bolt as well as wing attach and engine mount.
Please comment on this. I just changed my bolts in the control horn in tail
section and on push pull tubes on linkages.

Thanks again
Murray Cherkas
REBEL 505



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[Drew Dalgleish]

You're right Murray my plane got snagged for all the bolts in the landing
gear on final inspection.
Drew

At 06:13 PM 2/23/2003 -0800, you wrote:

Listen up everyone

If you haven't followed this thread, you should consider it.This is really
important.

WAYNE: you mentioned using castle nuts and cotter pins wherever there is
movement on a bolt as well as wing attach and engine mount.
Please comment on this. I just changed my bolts in the control horn in tail
section and on push pull tubes on linkages.

Thanks again
Murray Cherkas
REBEL 505



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[Legeorgen]

Murray,

I have heard about Canadian rules regarding nylon lock nuts being different
that in US. In the US, it is OK to us a self locking nylon nut on a clamped
down installation where the bolt does not rotate, such as a rod end on a
push-pull tube, as long as it is behind the firewall and not subject to heat
that may melt the nylon.

Bruce 357R



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

My two cents on this are as follows:

The Rebel will not fall apart using nytrol nuts on everything, if installed
and maintained properly!
UNFORTUNATELY this is not legal under the MD-RA inspection program and some
of the AC-43 technical references.

I have never stated that drilled and cotters where necessary on wing attach
bolts and I think the only place this came up was when Mike Kimball was
looking for some new wing bolts for his Moose/SR cross and I had some here
that would of worked but were drilled. Normal -A bolts and Nytrol nuts are
just fine on anything that isn't moving (from Firewall back), such as wing
fittings, struts, stab, axle attach bolts, etc.

Technically ANYTHING that is working as a "pivot" or "hinge" MUST have a
drilled bolt/castle nut and cotter. Even though, as I stated above, the
landing gear legs have never loosened or fallen off my Rebel in 8 years (and
there is no reason that they would from the minimal amount the gear moves)
the MD-RA will NOT pass a final inspection on a Murphy Rebel that has
landing gear legs bolts installed using (the MAM supplied) nytrol nuts
and -A bolts. This was made VERY clear during our Ontario "RATASS"
(Recreational Aviation Technical Advisors Safety Seminar) workshops, so
clear in fact that Jamie Alexandre's presentation even had a slide of a
Rebel's landing gear legs using the "wrong" attachment hardware. If they
have gone to this length to "black list" this attachment practice then every
MD-RA inspector has seen this slide and it's clearly imbedded in their mind.

Murray, you have a good point in using them on the elevator control mixer in
the tail cone that converts cable to push pull. The cable attach bolts
aren't really rotating and the thimble will just rock on the bolt as it goes
back and forth, but why not be safe about the whole thing (and avoid a
possible snag with MD-RA).

As for the push pull ends, your call here. I will take the inspector to task
if he wanted me to change all of these to drilled and also any bolts holding
a bearing'd pulley in place. As long as the bearing or rod end pivot is
doing it's job the bolt is never going to rotate. AC 43 also clearly states
that a nytrol nut can be used on a bearing'd pulley and I have that paged
marked for the confrontation if it ever comes, but my book is out in the
shop and I'm not wading through the 20" of snow we got over the last 24
hours to go get it, so I can reference the sub section.

As for the engine mount bolts I'm not sure which ones you are referring too
so I will cover both.
The firewall to engine mount bolts could be either drilled bolts and castle
nuts, or -A bolts and METAL lock nuts. Murphy supplied drilled bolts and
castles, and probably for the reason to make sure that you don't strip the
threads installing the nut and then having a safety of a cotter pin through
so the nut couldn't tension pull off.

As for the mount to insolation rubber engine bolts, I am not sure what is
really "legal" here. On my Rebel I used the bolts that came with my original
PA-12 engine and mount. They were drilled, used castle nuts and pins. Every
motor I have installed since has been done using normal -A bolts and METAL
lock nuts. I have never found one that has loosened off from vibration in as
long as 7 years on an airplane but I don't know for sure if MD-RA would snag
this as only one with metal lock nuts has had to go through the inspection
process and that was back in 1996.

Hope that helps some!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray and Carol Cherkas" <cherkas@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:13 PM
Subject: drilled bolts/castle nuts/cotter pin

Listen up everyone

If you haven't followed this thread, you should consider it.This is really
important.

WAYNE: you mentioned using castle nuts and cotter pins wherever there is
movement on a bolt as well as wing attach and engine mount.
Please comment on this. I just changed my bolts in the control horn in

tail

section and on push pull tubes on linkages.

Thanks again
Murray Cherkas
REBEL 505

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[rognal]

George,

The only (FAA) AC I could find on this was AC 23.607-1 Subject: Self-Locking
Nuts on Bolts Subject to Rotation, dated 8/24/84. It can be found at URL:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... ircular.ns
f/ACNumber/C6569DF0A2C3882E862569B2006A7798?OpenDocument

Could this be the one you referenced?

Roger Hoffman #687R
Eugene, OR USA!


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[George Coy]

There is a U.S. Advisory circular on this issue. AC23-601-1. I see the
steel self locking nuts in a lot of places that the bolt is subject to
rotation. Look at a Cessna 150 Elevator bolts sometime.
I just threw this in to corn-fuse everyone...
George Coy A&P IA (and several unprintable letter groups)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Legeorgen@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:07 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: drilled bolts/castle nuts/cotter pin

Murray,

I have heard about Canadian rules regarding nylon lock nuts being different
that in US. In the US, it is OK to us a self locking nylon nut on a clamped
down installation where the bolt does not rotate, such as a rod end on a
push-pull tube, as long as it is behind the firewall and not subject to heat
that may melt the nylon.

Bruce 357R



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[Legeorgen]

For anyone that is interested in what the US will or will not allow on
Certified Aircraft. You can contact the FAA on their web site and they will
mail you free, (form your tax dollars) the "Acceptable Methods, Techniques,
and Practices-Aircraft Inspection and Repair." This is Advisory Circular AC
43.13-1B and is the Bible for US allowable standards on certified aircraft.
It is two inches thick with a wealth of knowledge you can reference whenever
you have questions or concerns about a procedure regarding wood, fabric,
metal and anything else that has to do with airplanes.

Of course we are building experimentals and you can do what ever you want
too, right, but most EAA Technical Advisors (all you US builders are using
them aren't you?) will strongly suggest you use Acceptable methods and
techniques or it will not go well on their report they file and send to the
FAA. This may or may not be an issue when you get final inspection from your
FAA inspector or Designated examiner.

All experimental aircraft and builders I know follow US certified standards
but I have read on NTSB accident reports and heard plenty of stories about
builders who did not, and I'm sure wished they had, or at least their estates
did.

Bruce 357R



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I know what you are saying Bruce, but I hear this line from others when
building a homebuilt and when they say "I can do what ever I want too, it's
only a homebuilt" they're serious, BUT are too ignorant to realize that the
regulations on both sides of the border state that you can indeed do what
ever the heck you want PROVIDED you follow acceptable standards and
practices while you do so!

If your final inspector finds anything that HE/SHE feels isn't to acceptable
standards and practices you will never see your flight permit, unless you
can easily prove otherwise (why I have the page tagged for nytrol nuts
securing a bearing'd pulley!) or quickly give in and just fix the noted
snags.

;o)))
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: drilled bolts/castle nuts/cotter pin


snip>

Of course we are building experimentals and you can do what ever you want
too, right, but most EAA Technical Advisors (all you US builders are using
them aren't you?) will strongly suggest you use Acceptable methods and
techniques >
Snip

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