update on jabiru engines

[Mike Davis]

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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: update on jabiru engines
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I said I would report back on the 6 cylinder jabiru after our National fly
in.

The motor was there with a representative

The general consensus was from builders there, that the 6 cylinder has a
lot of potential, but!

The price asked appears to be a lot for an engine with no guarantees, that
is there are no TBO times, just suck it and see. It is a very compact unit
and at 166 lb including exhaust etc very light, but is it too light?
Only time will tell.

There are a lot of engines being shipped around the world so it will be
interesting to see if it holds up in the long term, and my judgment would
be to wait a little and see how it performs over time.

Alister

email: yeoman@voyager.co.nz



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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: update on jabiru engines
Message-Id: <E109gXA-000377-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:34:48 -0500


Thanks for the feedback, Alister !!

How much WERE they asking for the 6 cylinder, (US or AUS $$) ???

Please keep us updated on anyone you hear about who is flying one.

Thanks !! .......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 06:06 PM 2/7/99 +1300, you wrote:

I said I would report back on the 6 cylinder jabiru after our National fly
in.

The motor was there with a representative

The general consensus was from builders there, that the 6 cylinder has a
lot of potential, but!

The price asked appears to be a lot for an engine with no guarantees, that
is there are no TBO times, just suck it and see. It is a very compact unit
and at 166 lb including exhaust etc very light, but is it too light?
Only time will tell.

There are a lot of engines being shipped around the world so it will be
interesting to see if it holds up in the long term, and my judgment would
be to wait a little and see how it performs over time.

Alister

email: yeoman@voyager.co.nz

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[Mike Davis]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: update on jabiru engines
Message-Id: <E10A2oB-0004Ls-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:21:52 -0500


WOW !!! For $19,500 CDN, I would much rather use the Rotax 912S -
also 100 hp., but at least a little more proven .....
And probably slightly LESS expensive !

Engine mounts & cowlings already exist, too ....

....bobp
-------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 11:54 PM 2/7/99 -0500, you wrote:

Thanks for your feedback Alister!

I have located Bill Watson, the Canadian rep for Jabiru
(bill@watsonflight.ca). He said no engines have been delivered in this neck
of the woods but a few have been ordered.
Apparently the engine has a TBO of 1000 hrs for now but 2000 hrs is the
target. It comes with a 6 month warranty......how much confidence does that
imply?

I did not get a clear answer as to why they advertise 100 hp @ 2700 rpm and
not 120 @ 3300.

To answer earlier e-mail from Bob; the price Bill quoted me was very high:
$19,500 Canadian!!!
But despite the price tag it seems to be selling OK so there should be some
real data available soon.

Happy building/flying, Paul Kucera, 453R



-----Original Message-----
From: Alister Yeoman <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 12:06 AM
Subject: update on jabiru engines

I said I would report back on the 6 cylinder jabiru after our National fly
in.

The motor was there with a representative

The general consensus was from builders there, that the 6 cylinder has a
lot of potential, but!

The price asked appears to be a lot for an engine with no guarantees, that
is there are no TBO times, just suck it and see. It is a very compact unit
and at 166 lb including exhaust etc very light, but is it too light?
Only time will tell.

There are a lot of engines being shipped around the world so it will be
interesting to see if it holds up in the long term, and my judgment would
be to wait a little and see how it performs over time.

Alister

email: yeoman@voyager.co.nz

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[Mike Davis]

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From: "C&P Kucera" <cpkucera@idirect.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: update on jabiru engines
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I think that (unfortunately) the Jabiru guys did their homework carefully.
The $19, 500 CDN includes stainless exhaust and an alternator. By the time
you add these items plus a rad to the 100 hp Rotax 912 ULS you end up pretty
well with the same price.

Jabiru are probably counting on their pretty much traditional design to be
reliable. Their 2200 engine has been flying for a while and the 3300 uses
many of the same parts.

At these wild prices one can't help but consider adding another 2K for the
914 turbo and have 115hp on tap pretty well at any pressure altitude and at
the same low weight as the Jabiru and with less prop noise.

www.rotec.com is a good site with prices and nice pictures of the entire
Rotax engine line.

.............gotta run now .......to buy a lottery ticket. Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: update on jabiru engines

WOW !!! For $19,500 CDN, I would much rather use the Rotax 912S -
also 100 hp., but at least a little more proven .....
And probably slightly LESS expensive !

Engine mounts & cowlings already exist, too ....

....bobp
-------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 11:54 PM 2/7/99 -0500, you wrote:

Thanks for your feedback Alister!

I have located Bill Watson, the Canadian rep for Jabiru
(bill@watsonflight.ca). He said no engines have been delivered in this

neck

of the woods but a few have been ordered.
Apparently the engine has a TBO of 1000 hrs for now but 2000 hrs is the
target. It comes with a 6 month warranty......how much confidence does

that

imply?

I did not get a clear answer as to why they advertise 100 hp @ 2700 rpm

and

not 120 @ 3300.

To answer earlier e-mail from Bob; the price Bill quoted me was very

high:

$19,500 Canadian!!!
But despite the price tag it seems to be selling OK so there should be

some

real data available soon.

Happy building/flying, Paul Kucera, 453R



-----Original Message-----
From: Alister Yeoman <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 12:06 AM
Subject: update on jabiru engines

I said I would report back on the 6 cylinder jabiru after our National

fly

in.

The motor was there with a representative

The general consensus was from builders there, that the 6 cylinder has a
lot of potential, but!

The price asked appears to be a lot for an engine with no guarantees,

that

is there are no TBO times, just suck it and see. It is a very compact

unit

and at 166 lb including exhaust etc very light, but is it too light?
Only time will tell.

There are a lot of engines being shipped around the world so it will be
interesting to see if it holds up in the long term, and my judgment

would

be to wait a little and see how it performs over time.

Alister

email: yeoman@voyager.co.nz

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[Mike Davis]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: update on jabiru engines
Message-Id: <E10Ama4-0006K3-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:14:21 -0500


Will have to check that out - my understanding was that the price
for the 912-S SPECIFICALLY included the exhaust system (because it's
specially balanced), AND a ring type engine mount (which still needs
legs welded to it to go to the firewall ! The radiator is just a
standard V-W Rabbit rad - no need to buy the overpriced Rotax rads !!

The 914 has NOT had a good history - heard of a few that have
suffered broken cranks (including one at Brampton - on a Zenair 601)
It has also been reported to be fiddly to keep running well - it sounded
like a good idea, but if it really WAS working well, I think we'd see
a LOT more of them, even at that aweful price !!

At the moment, the 912-UL-S looks like my first choice, but time
will tell ....

Perhaps Tom Inglis (Tiverton Tom) will have a pilot report for us
soon, on his 912 Rebel.... At the moment, the regular 912 does
what I need.

....bobp

----------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 11:06 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:

I think that (unfortunately) the Jabiru guys did their homework carefully.
The $19, 500 CDN includes stainless exhaust and an alternator. By the time
you add these items plus a rad to the 100 hp Rotax 912 ULS you end up

pretty

well with the same price.

Jabiru are probably counting on their pretty much traditional design to be
reliable. Their 2200 engine has been flying for a while and the 3300 uses
many of the same parts.

At these wild prices one can't help but consider adding another 2K for the
914 turbo and have 115hp on tap pretty well at any pressure altitude and at
the same low weight as the Jabiru and with less prop noise.

www.rotec.com is a good site with prices and nice pictures of the entire
Rotax engine line.

............gotta run now .......to buy a lottery ticket. Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: update on jabiru engines

WOW !!! For $19,500 CDN, I would much rather use the Rotax 912S -
also 100 hp., but at least a little more proven .....
And probably slightly LESS expensive !

Engine mounts & cowlings already exist, too ....

....bobp
-------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 11:54 PM 2/7/99 -0500, you wrote:

Thanks for your feedback Alister!

I have located Bill Watson, the Canadian rep for Jabiru
(bill@watsonflight.ca). He said no engines have been delivered in this

neck

of the woods but a few have been ordered.
Apparently the engine has a TBO of 1000 hrs for now but 2000 hrs is the
target. It comes with a 6 month warranty......how much confidence does

that

imply?

I did not get a clear answer as to why they advertise 100 hp @ 2700 rpm

and

not 120 @ 3300.

To answer earlier e-mail from Bob; the price Bill quoted me was very

high:

$19,500 Canadian!!!
But despite the price tag it seems to be selling OK so there should be

some

real data available soon.

Happy building/flying, Paul Kucera, 453R



-----Original Message-----
From: Alister Yeoman <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 12:06 AM
Subject: update on jabiru engines

fly

that

unit

would

[Mike Davis]

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To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: update on jabiru engines
Message-Id: <E10AxUh-00029S-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:53:32 -0500

I checked out the prices on www.rotec.com - YOWEEEEE !!! I'm
rushing out now to buy a lottery ticket now, too !!

I guess they 'un-bundled' the exhaust, intake, and engine mount
to make the price look more 'reasonable' !!!!

Looks like I've got to go rethink my plans again, too - I still
think the 912-ULS would be a good engine, and the fuel & maintenance
savings over the lifetime would make it less expensive than a new
Lycoming, BUT - that's a LOT of money !! (about $24,000 CDN - after
all parts AND taxes !!) The bare 912-ULS is $17,325CDN - about the
cost of an overhauled O-235 or O-320 !!

.....bobp

And the search for a GOOD, CHEAP engine continues .....

-----------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 10:14 PM 2/10/99 -0500, you wrote:

Will have to check that out - my understanding was that the price
for the 912-S SPECIFICALLY included the exhaust system (because it's
specially balanced), AND a ring type engine mount (which still needs
legs welded to it to go to the firewall ! The radiator is just a
standard V-W Rabbit rad - no need to buy the overpriced Rotax rads !!

The 914 has NOT had a good history - heard of a few that have
suffered broken cranks (including one at Brampton - on a Zenair 601)
It has also been reported to be fiddly to keep running well - it sounded
like a good idea, but if it really WAS working well, I think we'd see
a LOT more of them, even at that aweful price !!

At the moment, the 912-UL-S looks like my first choice, but time
will tell ....

Perhaps Tom Inglis (Tiverton Tom) will have a pilot report for us
soon, on his 912 Rebel.... At the moment, the regular 912 does
what I need.

....bobp

----------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 11:06 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:

I think that (unfortunately) the Jabiru guys did their homework

carefully.

The $19, 500 CDN includes stainless exhaust and an alternator. By the

time

you add these items plus a rad to the 100 hp Rotax 912 ULS you end up

pretty

well with the same price.

Jabiru are probably counting on their pretty much traditional design to

be

reliable. Their 2200 engine has been flying for a while and the 3300 uses
many of the same parts.

At these wild prices one can't help but consider adding another 2K for

the

914 turbo and have 115hp on tap pretty well at any pressure altitude and

at

the same low weight as the Jabiru and with less prop noise.

www.rotec.com is a good site with prices and nice pictures of the entire
Rotax engine line.

............gotta run now .......to buy a lottery ticket. Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: update on jabiru engines

neck that and high: some fly

a

that unit

be

would

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[Mike Davis]

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Reply-To: <tlcarter@email.msn.com>
From: "Tim Carter" <tlcarter@email.msn.com>
To: "'Murphy Rebel'" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: update on Jabiru engines
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:40:55 -0800
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Hi gang:

Ammo for the cannons...just to add my 2 cents worth...

I considered a Rotax and Jabiru when I started thinking about engines three
years ago....I just felt at that uninformed time that I did not want to
spend big money for a 50 year old technology airplane engine...surely there
was something more acceptable...

I flew a Kitfox 5 with a Rotax 912 when I was choosing a homebuilt....but
something about the 7,000 RPM on takeoff and 5,500 in cruise bugged me too
much....plus the water-cooling thing worried me. Also, as I recall, they
are high maintenance...and there is a lot of information about maintaining
them and the frequency of maintenance in the Kitfox forum....

Finally, I decided that if I was going to spend the big money, I was going
to do it on a 'real airplane engine' (sorry Dave Bangle...I do like the
Subaru Legacy engine...but I did not want to engineer the firewall forward
myself due to the increase in build time...)

Finally, I just cratered and purchased a 0 SMOH Lycoming O-320-E2D. Built
by a guy here, and I watched the whole process. About $12,000 US with
accessories. All parts within new limits.

For me, it was a value for money decision.

Tim
#438

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 6:54 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: update on jabiru engines

I checked out the prices on www.rotec.com - YOWEEEEE !!! I'm
rushing out now to buy a lottery ticket now, too !!

I guess they 'un-bundled' the exhaust, intake, and engine mount
to make the price look more 'reasonable' !!!!

Looks like I've got to go rethink my plans again, too - I still
think the 912-ULS would be a good engine, and the fuel & maintenance
savings over the lifetime would make it less expensive than a new
Lycoming, BUT - that's a LOT of money !! (about $24,000 CDN - after
all parts AND taxes !!) The bare 912-ULS is $17,325CDN - about the
cost of an overhauled O-235 or O-320 !!

.....bobp

And the search for a GOOD, CHEAP engine continues .....

-----------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 10:14 PM 2/10/99 -0500, you wrote:

Will have to check that out - my understanding was that the price
for the 912-S SPECIFICALLY included the exhaust system (because it's
specially balanced), AND a ring type engine mount (which still needs
legs welded to it to go to the firewall ! The radiator is just a
standard V-W Rabbit rad - no need to buy the overpriced Rotax rads !!

The 914 has NOT had a good history - heard of a few that have
suffered broken cranks (including one at Brampton - on a Zenair 601)
It has also been reported to be fiddly to keep running well - it sounded
like a good idea, but if it really WAS working well, I think we'd see
a LOT more of them, even at that aweful price !!

At the moment, the 912-UL-S looks like my first choice, but time
will tell ....

Perhaps Tom Inglis (Tiverton Tom) will have a pilot report for us
soon, on his 912 Rebel.... At the moment, the regular 912 does
what I need.

....bobp

----------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 11:06 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:

I think that (unfortunately) the Jabiru guys did their homework

carefully.

The $19, 500 CDN includes stainless exhaust and an alternator. By the

time

you add these items plus a rad to the 100 hp Rotax 912 ULS you end up

pretty

well with the same price.

Jabiru are probably counting on their pretty much traditional design to

be

reliable. Their 2200 engine has been flying for a while and the 3300 uses
many of the same parts.

At these wild prices one can't help but consider adding another 2K for

the

914 turbo and have 115hp on tap pretty well at any pressure altitude and

at

the same low weight as the Jabiru and with less prop noise.

www.rotec.com is a good site with prices and nice pictures of the entire
Rotax engine line.

............gotta run now .......to buy a lottery ticket. Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: update on jabiru engines

neck that and high: some fly

a

that unit

be

would

[Mike Davis]

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Tim Carter wrote:

Hi gang:

Ammo for the cannons...just to add my 2 cents worth...

I considered a Rotax and Jabiru when I started thinking about engines

three

years ago....I just felt at that uninformed time that I did not want to
spend big money for a 50 year old technology airplane engine...surely

there

was something more acceptable...

I flew a Kitfox 5 with a Rotax 912 when I was choosing a homebuilt....but
something about the 7,000 RPM on takeoff and 5,500 in cruise bugged me too
much....plus the water-cooling thing worried me. Also, as I recall, they
are high maintenance...and there is a lot of information about maintaining
them and the frequency of maintenance in the Kitfox forum....

Finally, I decided that if I was going to spend the big money, I was going
to do it on a 'real airplane engine' (sorry Dave Bangle...I do like the
Subaru Legacy engine...but I did not want to engineer the firewall forward
myself due to the increase in build time...)

Finally, I just cratered and purchased a 0 SMOH Lycoming O-320-E2D. Built
by a guy here, and I watched the whole process. About $12,000 US with
accessories. All parts within new limits.

For me, it was a value for money decision.

Tim
#438

Hey Tim,

No hard feelings here. During the development there was many a time I
would have done it the way you just did it because of the grief and
uncertainty. Hopefully we can save the trial and error process for
future Subaru customers, be it their engines or ours. You won't be
disappointed for sure going the route you have. Congratulations.

Dave
--
Dave Bangle http://www.subielyc.com/

[Mike Davis]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: RE: update on Jabiru engines
Message-Id: <E10B9ic-00026Y-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:56:43 -0500


Tim,

Don't know what kind of Rotax was in that Kitfox, but it sure
wasn't a 912 - they have a max. rpm of 5,800 on takeoff !!

The 2 stroke Rotaxes are high maintenance, and have a relatively
short service life (about 250 -300 hr. TBO) HOWEVER -

The 912 is one GREAT ENGINE !!!

I had lots of years behind Lycomings, Continentals, Jacobs,
Gypseys, Rangers, etc. .... When I first got to try the 912. Like
most people, I was worried about the high rpm, and the re-drive, and ...

I was very fortunate - when I first got to fly it, it WASN'T
MINE - I treated it carefully, but, if it blew up - well ... it was
insured, and they could just come & get the pieces !!

I flew it around for about 50 hours - it ran quiet, smooth, and
burned about 2 gallons/hour in the cold February air !! Then Anna &
I flew it from Toronto down to Florida - damn thing just kept on ticking !!
It loves to cruise all day at 5,400 rpm - not even working hard !!

Anyway, I became convinced !!! We have flown that 912 all over
North America, and the total maintenance so far, other than oil changes,
with filters, at 50 hours, has been 3 sets of spark plugs, and 2
new air filters !!! Not too shabby for over 900 Hours !!!

Having put about 1,100 hours on my other Rebel, with a Lycoming
O-235, which burns 6 gallons/hour, and a quart of oil every 6 hours,
I can compare the maintenance. The Lycosaurus has had:
One complete TOP overhaul, 2 mags, 2 carburetors, 2 exhaust
systems, and 2 new cylinders - so far !! This on top of horrendous
gas & oil consumption (by comparison !) !!

When I bought it, the 912 was about $7,800US - not bad for a
BRAND-NEW ENGINE, with MODERN engineering & metallurgy !!

To each his own , but I will defend the 912 - it has been THE
BEST ENGINE I've EVER FLOWN BEHIND !!! ===
==== ====

Just wanted to squash any misinformed rumours before they spread !

......bobp


The O-320 will give you dazzling performance, and you'll just love
your Rebel - but be prepared to spend the bucks to KEEP it running !!
(Something about ... "you pays me now, or you pays me later" !!)
Lycoming - the gift that keeps on costing !!

----------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 09:40 AM 2/11/99 -0800, you wrote:

Hi gang:

Ammo for the cannons...just to add my 2 cents worth...

I considered a Rotax and Jabiru when I started thinking about engines three
years ago....I just felt at that uninformed time that I did not want to
spend big money for a 50 year old technology airplane engine...surely there
was something more acceptable...

I flew a Kitfox 5 with a Rotax 912 when I was choosing a homebuilt....but
something about the 7,000 RPM on takeoff and 5,500 in cruise bugged me too
much....plus the water-cooling thing worried me. Also, as I recall, they
are high maintenance...and there is a lot of information about maintaining
them and the frequency of maintenance in the Kitfox forum....

Finally, I decided that if I was going to spend the big money, I was going
to do it on a 'real airplane engine' (sorry Dave Bangle...I do like the
Subaru Legacy engine...but I did not want to engineer the firewall forward
myself due to the increase in build time...)

Finally, I just cratered and purchased a 0 SMOH Lycoming O-320-E2D. Built
by a guy here, and I watched the whole process. About $12,000 US with
accessories. All parts within new limits.

For me, it was a value for money decision.

Tim
#438

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 6:54 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: update on jabiru engines

I checked out the prices on www.rotec.com - YOWEEEEE !!! I'm
rushing out now to buy a lottery ticket now, too !!

I guess they 'un-bundled' the exhaust, intake, and engine mount
to make the price look more 'reasonable' !!!!

Looks like I've got to go rethink my plans again, too - I still
think the 912-ULS would be a good engine, and the fuel & maintenance
savings over the lifetime would make it less expensive than a new
Lycoming, BUT - that's a LOT of money !! (about $24,000 CDN - after
all parts AND taxes !!) The bare 912-ULS is $17,325CDN - about the
cost of an overhauled O-235 or O-320 !!

.....bobp

And the search for a GOOD, CHEAP engine continues .....

-----------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 10:14 PM 2/10/99 -0500, you wrote:

Will have to check that out - my understanding was that the price
for the 912-S SPECIFICALLY included the exhaust system (because it's
specially balanced), AND a ring type engine mount (which still needs
legs welded to it to go to the firewall ! The radiator is just a
standard V-W Rabbit rad - no need to buy the overpriced Rotax rads !!

The 914 has NOT had a good history - heard of a few that have
suffered broken cranks (including one at Brampton - on a Zenair 601)
It has also been reported to be fiddly to keep running well - it sounded
like a good idea, but if it really WAS working well, I think we'd see
a LOT more of them, even at that aweful price !!

At the moment, the 912-UL-S looks like my first choice, but time
will tell ....

Perhaps Tom Inglis (Tiverton Tom) will have a pilot report for us
soon, on his 912 Rebel.... At the moment, the regular 912 does
what I need.

....bobp

----------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 11:06 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:

carefully.

time

pretty

be

uses

the

at

the

rpm

National

has

a

be

[Mike Davis]

Received: from tim-toshiba - 206.40.8.15 by email.msn.com with Microsoft
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Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:53:49 -0800
Reply-To: <tlcarter@email.msn.com>
From: "Tim Carter" <tlcarter@email.msn.com>
To: "'Murphy Rebel'" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: update on Jabiru engines
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:57:30 -0800
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OK...like I said...it was just my 2 cents worth.

I <thought> I was very careful not to 'bash' the Rotax in my message...or
start misinformed rumors...that wasn't the intent of my message.

That's just what I remembered from my one ride...maybe the prop was pitched
too flat...or the tach was wrong...and that is possible because they had
just replaced the engine the day before...

Sorry if others were offended too!

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:57 PM
To: Murphy Rebel
Subject: RE: update on Jabiru engines



Tim,

Don't know what kind of Rotax was in that Kitfox, but it sure
wasn't a 912 - they have a max. rpm of 5,800 on takeoff !!

The 2 stroke Rotaxes are high maintenance, and have a relatively
short service life (about 250 -300 hr. TBO) HOWEVER -

The 912 is one GREAT ENGINE !!!

I had lots of years behind Lycomings, Continentals, Jacobs,
Gypseys, Rangers, etc. .... When I first got to try the 912. Like
most people, I was worried about the high rpm, and the re-drive, and ...

I was very fortunate - when I first got to fly it, it WASN'T
MINE - I treated it carefully, but, if it blew up - well ... it was
insured, and they could just come & get the pieces !!

I flew it around for about 50 hours - it ran quiet, smooth, and
burned about 2 gallons/hour in the cold February air !! Then Anna &
I flew it from Toronto down to Florida - damn thing just kept on ticking !!
It loves to cruise all day at 5,400 rpm - not even working hard !!

Anyway, I became convinced !!! We have flown that 912 all over
North America, and the total maintenance so far, other than oil changes,
with filters, at 50 hours, has been 3 sets of spark plugs, and 2
new air filters !!! Not too shabby for over 900 Hours !!!

Having put about 1,100 hours on my other Rebel, with a Lycoming
O-235, which burns 6 gallons/hour, and a quart of oil every 6 hours,
I can compare the maintenance. The Lycosaurus has had:
One complete TOP overhaul, 2 mags, 2 carburetors, 2 exhaust
systems, and 2 new cylinders - so far !! This on top of horrendous
gas & oil consumption (by comparison !) !!

When I bought it, the 912 was about $7,800US - not bad for a
BRAND-NEW ENGINE, with MODERN engineering & metallurgy !!

To each his own , but I will defend the 912 - it has been THE
BEST ENGINE I've EVER FLOWN BEHIND !!! ===
==== ====

Just wanted to squash any misinformed rumours before they spread !

......bobp


The O-320 will give you dazzling performance, and you'll just love
your Rebel - but be prepared to spend the bucks to KEEP it running !!
(Something about ... "you pays me now, or you pays me later" !!)
Lycoming - the gift that keeps on costing !!

----------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 09:40 AM 2/11/99 -0800, you wrote:

Hi gang:

Ammo for the cannons...just to add my 2 cents worth...

I considered a Rotax and Jabiru when I started thinking about engines three
years ago....I just felt at that uninformed time that I did not want to
spend big money for a 50 year old technology airplane engine...surely there
was something more acceptable...

I flew a Kitfox 5 with a Rotax 912 when I was choosing a homebuilt....but
something about the 7,000 RPM on takeoff and 5,500 in cruise bugged me too
much....plus the water-cooling thing worried me. Also, as I recall, they
are high maintenance...and there is a lot of information about maintaining
them and the frequency of maintenance in the Kitfox forum....

Finally, I decided that if I was going to spend the big money, I was going
to do it on a 'real airplane engine' (sorry Dave Bangle...I do like the
Subaru Legacy engine...but I did not want to engineer the firewall forward
myself due to the increase in build time...)

Finally, I just cratered and purchased a 0 SMOH Lycoming O-320-E2D. Built
by a guy here, and I watched the whole process. About $12,000 US with
accessories. All parts within new limits.

For me, it was a value for money decision.

Tim
#438

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 6:54 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: update on jabiru engines

I checked out the prices on www.rotec.com - YOWEEEEE !!! I'm
rushing out now to buy a lottery ticket now, too !!

I guess they 'un-bundled' the exhaust, intake, and engine mount
to make the price look more 'reasonable' !!!!

Looks like I've got to go rethink my plans again, too - I still
think the 912-ULS would be a good engine, and the fuel & maintenance
savings over the lifetime would make it less expensive than a new
Lycoming, BUT - that's a LOT of money !! (about $24,000 CDN - after
all parts AND taxes !!) The bare 912-ULS is $17,325CDN - about the
cost of an overhauled O-235 or O-320 !!

.....bobp

And the search for a GOOD, CHEAP engine continues .....

-----------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 10:14 PM 2/10/99 -0500, you wrote:

Will have to check that out - my understanding was that the price
for the 912-S SPECIFICALLY included the exhaust system (because it's
specially balanced), AND a ring type engine mount (which still needs
legs welded to it to go to the firewall ! The radiator is just a
standard V-W Rabbit rad - no need to buy the overpriced Rotax rads !!

The 914 has NOT had a good history - heard of a few that have
suffered broken cranks (including one at Brampton - on a Zenair 601)
It has also been reported to be fiddly to keep running well - it sounded
like a good idea, but if it really WAS working well, I think we'd see
a LOT more of them, even at that aweful price !!

At the moment, the 912-UL-S looks like my first choice, but time
will tell ....

Perhaps Tom Inglis (Tiverton Tom) will have a pilot report for us
soon, on his 912 Rebel.... At the moment, the regular 912 does
what I need.

....bobp

----------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 11:06 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:

carefully.

time

pretty

be

uses

the

at

the

rpm

National

has

a

be