murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

[Mnleber]

Mike Jones.

It is ever so refreshing to know I'm not the only one having trouble getting information from the manual. The flaps and ailerons on REBEL are tied together. You are right they really need something that includes information detailing overall assembly so we can see how things work together. I was having same problem with the elevator until I went up and saw Waynes bird. Then it became clear. More information would probably help prevent a lot of mistakes and stress if we could see what kind of tolerances we could work with. Unfortunately I find the lack of dimensions on drawings somewhat disconcerting as it doesn't allow for double checking. It means we have to take a lot on faith and assume the manuals are correct. I guess that's one very good reason for this forum. It has helped me a lot, if for no other reason to reduce the stress !!!

Mike Le Ber R683

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[Gary Bataller]

Mike,
The instructions are still a MAJOR problem in the Super Rebel kit. Very
frustrating! I would really appreciate it if Murphy would provide full-size
blueprints (ala Van's Aircraft) and lots of photos and assembly drawings.
I've had several perspective SR2500 customers stop by and they are somewhat
turned off by the lack of blueprints and photos. However, they do like the
quality of the components.

I've recently purchased some SR2500 drawings from Gordon Hindle;
www.lynx.net/gordon
Thanks to Gordon, we actually have nice drawing of the SR2500. Why the heck
isn't Murphy doing this?


----- Original Message -----
From: <Mnleber@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

Mike Jones.

It is ever so refreshing to know I'm not the only one having trouble

getting information from the manual. The flaps and ailerons on REBEL are
tied together. You are right they really need something that includes
information detailing overall assembly so we can see how things work
together. I was having same problem with the elevator until I went up and
saw Waynes bird. Then it became clear. More information would probably help
prevent a lot of mistakes and stress if we could see what kind of tolerances
we could work with. Unfortunately I find the lack of dimensions on drawings
somewhat disconcerting as it doesn't allow for double checking. It means we
have to take a lot on faith and assume the manuals are correct. I guess
that's one very good reason for this forum. It has helped me a lot, if for
no other reason to reduce the stress !!!

Mike Le Ber R683

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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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[Bob Patterson]

Gary,

Murphy has chosen a different route with their manuals. MANY
people complained that they could not/would not read blueprints to
build an airplane. Murphy chose to provide mostly finished parts, a
self-jigging design, and exploded view drawings, to help simplify
the building process.

There IS another reason - PIRACY !! Several "clones" of
early Murphy designs (which DID have blueprints) have appeared on
the market in Italy and several former Soviet countries, for example.
The same has happened to others, like Zenair and Rans. There is little
that a manufacturer can do to protect his work in other countries ...

Murphy has always had a policy of giving price reductions to the
first 10 or 20 buyers of new designs, to get accelerated feedback on
customer needs/desires.

The early buyers of the Super Rebel kits got a VERY SUBSTANTIAL
reduction in price in exchange for their acceptance that the manuals
and some parts were still under development, and that they agreed
to help the factory by providing feedback on the suggested improvements
to the manuals. Some builders have been very helpful and supportive ....
and all are quite certain that they will end up with a very satisfactory
airplane !!

(Having put over 50 hours on the factory Super in the last
month, flying around Ontario, Quebec, and back out to B.C., I can
tell you THIS IS ONE <GREAT> AIRPLANE !!! It is DEFINITELY the
bargain of the century in terms of price/performance !! )

All of the aircraft manuals are continually being improved,
so, naturally, the Rebel manual, after 10 years of development, is
more refined than the Super Rebel manual, which is only about 4 years
old, but both are improving at a faster rate, as Tech Support gains
experience. The factory still needs positive feedback on ways to
improve things, and are most receptive. They are planning many more
photos, and would certainly appreciate any that you could submit that
you think would be helpful. (There are only 3 of them, and they have
over 1,500 builders to help, some daily, as well as trying to improve
the manuals !!) I'm sure they will thank you for the help !

....bobp

------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 09:11 PM 9/7/00 -0400, you wrote:

Mike,
The instructions are still a MAJOR problem in the Super Rebel kit. Very
frustrating! I would really appreciate it if Murphy would provide full-size
blueprints (ala Van's Aircraft) and lots of photos and assembly drawings.
I've had several perspective SR2500 customers stop by and they are somewhat
turned off by the lack of blueprints and photos. However, they do like the
quality of the components.

I've recently purchased some SR2500 drawings from Gordon Hindle;
www.lynx.net/gordon
Thanks to Gordon, we actually have nice drawing of the SR2500. Why the heck
isn't Murphy doing this?


----- Original Message -----
From: <Mnleber@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

Mike Jones.

It is ever so refreshing to know I'm not the only one having trouble

getting information from the manual. The flaps and ailerons on REBEL are
tied together. You are right they really need something that includes
information detailing overall assembly so we can see how things work
together. I was having same problem with the elevator until I went up and
saw Waynes bird. Then it became clear. More information would probably help
prevent a lot of mistakes and stress if we could see what kind of tolerances
we could work with. Unfortunately I find the lack of dimensions on drawings
somewhat disconcerting as it doesn't allow for double checking. It means we
have to take a lot on faith and assume the manuals are correct. I guess
that's one very good reason for this forum. It has helped me a lot, if for
no other reason to reduce the stress !!!

Mike Le Ber R683

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*


*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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[Gary Bataller]

Bob,
Added my comments to yours. I think we both want the SR2500 project to
succeed, but we disagree on how to get there.

Gary Bataller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

Gary,

Murphy has chosen a different route with their manuals. MANY
people complained that they could not/would not read blueprints to
build an airplane. Murphy chose to provide mostly finished parts, a
self-jigging design, and exploded view drawings, to help simplify
the building process.

I find it quite unbelievable that 'MANY' people complained about blueprints.
Where exactly did these people pop up? The blueprints are the heart of the
building project and provide the builder with the ability to check their
work, both dimensionally and perspective-wise. I believe Murphy has done a
fantastic job in providing a self-jigging design but the lack of blueprint
IS a big problem. I too have spoken to MANY people.

There IS another reason - PIRACY !! Several "clones" of
early Murphy designs (which DID have blueprints) have appeared on
the market in Italy and several former Soviet countries, for example.
The same has happened to others, like Zenair and Rans. There is little
that a manufacturer can do to protect his work in other countries ...

Granted, this could be a problem. How does Van's Aircraft handle this
though? They continue to provide the complete, fullsize plans with each
kit. In addition, anybody can buy a preview set of plans (which I have
done) which are smaller but completely accurate. If Murphy's solution to
this problem is to withold information from the builders, then so be it.

Murphy has always had a policy of giving price reductions to the
first 10 or 20 buyers of new designs, to get accelerated feedback on
customer needs/desires.

I was one of the initial buyers, but was never asked to provide any such
feedback. Sounds reasonable on paper, but it never happened with me.
However, I did send MANY unsolicitated comments on manual and kit problems
which I believe the Murphy people did incorporate. The comment on price
reductions for feedback is baloney.

The early buyers of the Super Rebel kits got a VERY SUBSTANTIAL
reduction in price in exchange for their acceptance that the manuals
and some parts were still under development, and that they agreed
to help the factory by providing feedback on the suggested improvements
to the manuals. Some builders have been very helpful and supportive ....
and all are quite certain that they will end up with a very satisfactory
airplane !!

I have serial #004 for the SR2500. I would appreciate it if Murphy would
send me a VERY SUBSTANTIAL check for the saving it appears I should have
earned. Hey, I paid the same price as everybody else. Eventually the price
went up on the kits, but then it went done again.
I never comment on the initial kit and manual problems. They were expected
and they were corrected. When I was shorted a large amount of items in the
final kit shipment, the factory took care of the problem, which I greatly
appreciated. My criticism is in the lack of blueprints! Don't cloud the
issue with some motherhood concerning price reductions. What is this, a
soapbox for Murphy?

(Having put over 50 hours on the factory Super in the last
month, flying around Ontario, Quebec, and back out to B.C., I can
tell you THIS IS ONE <GREAT> AIRPLANE !!! It is DEFINITELY the
bargain of the century in terms of price/performance !! )

I agree 1000% with you!!! I saw that the first time I got to fly in one at
Copperstate several years ago and it is confirmed everytime I have seen it
since (several Copperstates, Sun n Fun and Oshkosh). Whenever a potential
builder stops buy to see the project, I hope they walk away with the same
feeling. However, they probably also walk away knowing my feeling about the
lack of blueprints.

All of the aircraft manuals are continually being improved,
so, naturally, the Rebel manual, after 10 years of development, is
more refined than the Super Rebel manual, which is only about 4 years
old, but both are improving at a faster rate, as Tech Support gains
experience. The factory still needs positive feedback on ways to
improve things, and are most receptive. They are planning many more
photos, and would certainly appreciate any that you could submit that
you think would be helpful. (There are only 3 of them, and they have
over 1,500 builders to help, some daily, as well as trying to improve
the manuals !!) I'm sure they will thank you for the help !

I always try to give positive feedback to the factory. They ALWAYS provide
timely and accurate response. The manual is evolving and getting better (I
have about 6 versions at this point). I feel very strongly that the
blueprints need to be provided to legitimate builders, maybe after signed a
non-disclosure agreement.

....bobp

------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 09:11 PM 9/7/00 -0400, you wrote:

Mike,
The instructions are still a MAJOR problem in the Super Rebel kit. Very
frustrating! I would really appreciate it if Murphy would provide

full-size

blueprints (ala Van's Aircraft) and lots of photos and assembly drawings.
I've had several perspective SR2500 customers stop by and they are

somewhat

turned off by the lack of blueprints and photos. However, they do like

the

quality of the components.

I've recently purchased some SR2500 drawings from Gordon Hindle;
www.lynx.net/gordon
Thanks to Gordon, we actually have nice drawing of the SR2500. Why the

heck

isn't Murphy doing this?


----- Original Message -----
From: <Mnleber@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

Mike Jones.

It is ever so refreshing to know I'm not the only one having trouble

getting information from the manual. The flaps and ailerons on REBEL are
tied together. You are right they really need something that includes
information detailing overall assembly so we can see how things work
together. I was having same problem with the elevator until I went up and
saw Waynes bird. Then it became clear. More information would probably

help

prevent a lot of mistakes and stress if we could see what kind of

tolerances

we could work with. Unfortunately I find the lack of dimensions on

drawings

somewhat disconcerting as it doesn't allow for double checking. It means

we

have to take a lot on faith and assume the manuals are correct. I guess
that's one very good reason for this forum. It has helped me a lot, if

for

no other reason to reduce the stress !!!

Mike Le Ber R683

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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--------*

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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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--------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

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[Mike Davis]

Thought I'd just throw a comment in here also.

Gary, my name is Mike Davis and I started this mailing list in the fall of
1997 because I decided then, that someday I was going to build a Rebel. I
have tried several times unsuccessfully to get Murphy Aircraft to post a
link to the site for this list on their web site. In fact, I've never even
received a response from Murphy when I've made these requests. So I guess I
can say pretty firmly, that this list is truely a voice of the builders.

Now of course, you are most definately going to find biased opinions... as
you will in any discussion. Some folks feel very strongly about their
convictions, something I often envy when I'm sitting on the fence about
something.

In Bob's defense, I must say that however blissfully blinded (no offense
intended Bob) he may be by his appreciation for this wonderful aircraft...
he has probably contributed more to this forum than any other member. And
in several instances over the past three years I've seen him make very firm
statements when something was not being handled appropriately by the
factory. I do believe that he would defend the builders just as stalwartly
as he often defends the factory.

I also agree with your point that the factory should offer to make
blueprints available if a customer desires them, with the provision of a
non-disclosure agreement. It may be, that if enough builders approach the
factory with this same desire that it might happen.

I do hope that even after the clash of opinions, that you will find this
forum as useful as I have. And I haven't even started building yet... won't
even be ordering my kit until 2002. I'm planning on building a Super Rebel
now, a new job has bridged the financial gap between the Rebel & the SR2500
for me. And I will certainly appreciate any improvements in the materials,
manuals, and building process that has come from previous builders like you.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Bataller <gbataller@charter.net>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>;
bob.patterson@canrem.com <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Date: Sunday, September 10, 2000 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

Bob,
Peace.
I guess since I paid in the 23K$ range for serial #004 I was screwed, as I
certainly did not save 10K$ as you suggest; no further speculation or
comments required on this point. But as I have said, I hold no bad

feelings

concerning having received an early kit (none, whatsoever!). My comments
apply to today, Sept. 10, 2000. I certainly take offense to your reference
to 'complaining later'. Totally not appropriate!
I certainly intend to post my building experiences to all who wish to visit
the site. I do not have any conflict of interest to Murphy Aircraft (as

it

appears you certainly do; but so be it). I just want to get my kit flying
safely, and feedback my experiences to other builders.
As for this mailing group; not quite sure if this is a Murphy sponsored
discussion or a real builders discussion forum Hopefully it is the latter.

Gary B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

Gary,

We certainly do disagree ! I have spoken to many people who
said that they would not choose a kit if they had to learn how to
read blueprints in order to build it. This was one of the reasons
they chose Murphy kits. Most first-time builders want things to be
as simple as possible.

I have also spoken to at least 3 people who wanted blueprints
- ALL had built older style kits that came with blueprints, and
wanted the same level of comfort...

I guess you pays your money and makes your choice - but why
complain later ??

It sounds like whoever sold you your Super Rebel didn't do
a good job of explaining WHY the first 20 were over $10,000 CHEAPER !!
I'm sorry that happened to you, but it certainly IS reality -
I sold 12 of those first Supers myself, and every one of them had
the situation explained to them. The factory needs and welcomes
the positive feedback from builders, and, as you noted, your
suggestions were implemented for later versions of the manual.

Murphy certainly is not witholding blueprints to give the
builders a hard time ! The reality is that there ARE no complete
sets of blueprints like Van's supplies - this would involve a lot
of extra effort and expense, and Murphy has chosen to go a different
route by supplying exploded views in CAD drawings, and detailed
instructions. They believe that this is an easier way to build
a kitplane - and all those Renegades, Rebels, Mavericks, and
Super Rebels out there already flying seem to support this position !
I agree that sometimes, more dimensions in the instructions would
be helpful, and the manuals ARE being improved when these suggestions
arrive. Please "Keep 'em coming !"

At least we both agree that the SR2500 is a great airplane,
and I'm sure you're going to love yours when you get it flying -
even if you do have to do it without blueprints ! ;-)

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 06:56 PM 9/9/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob,
Added my comments to yours. I think we both want the SR2500 project to
succeed, but we disagree on how to get there.

Gary Bataller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

I find it quite unbelievable that 'MANY' people complained about

blueprints.

Where exactly did these people pop up? The blueprints are the heart of

the

building project and provide the builder with the ability to check their
work, both dimensionally and perspective-wise. I believe Murphy has

done

a

fantastic job in providing a self-jigging design but the lack of

blueprint

IS a big problem. I too have spoken to MANY people.

Granted, this could be a problem. How does Van's Aircraft handle this
though? They continue to provide the complete, fullsize plans with each
kit. In addition, anybody can buy a preview set of plans (which I have
done) which are smaller but completely accurate. If Murphy's solution

to

this problem is to withold information from the builders, then so be it.

the

I was one of the initial buyers, but was never asked to provide any such
feedback. Sounds reasonable on paper, but it never happened with me.
However, I did send MANY unsolicitated comments on manual and kit

problems

which I believe the Murphy people did incorporate. The comment on price
reductions for feedback is baloney.

SUBSTANTIAL

improvements

....

satisfactory

I have serial #004 for the SR2500. I would appreciate it if Murphy

would

send me a VERY SUBSTANTIAL check for the saving it appears I should have
earned. Hey, I paid the same price as everybody else. Eventually the

price

went up on the kits, but then it went done again.
I never comment on the initial kit and manual problems. They were

expected

and they were corrected. When I was shorted a large amount of items in

the

final kit shipment, the factory took care of the problem, which I

greatly

appreciated. My criticism is in the lack of blueprints! Don't cloud

the

issue with some motherhood concerning price reductions. What is this, a
soapbox for Murphy?
I agree 1000% with you!!! I saw that the first time I got to fly in one

at

Copperstate several years ago and it is confirmed everytime I have seen

it

since (several Copperstates, Sun n Fun and Oshkosh). Whenever a

potential

builder stops buy to see the project, I hope they walk away with the

same

feeling. However, they probably also walk away knowing my feeling about

the

lack of blueprints.
I always try to give positive feedback to the factory. They ALWAYS

provide

timely and accurate response. The manual is evolving and getting better

(I

have about 6 versions at this point). I feel very strongly that the
blueprints need to be provided to legitimate builders, maybe after

signed

a

non-disclosure agreement.

------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------

-

-

Very

full-size

drawings.

somewhat

like

the

the

heck

trouble

are

and

probably

help tolerances drawings

means

we

guess

if

for

*------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

-

-

*------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

-

-

*------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

-

*------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

-

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

-

--------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

-

--------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

---------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

--------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

--------*


*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*




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-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Bob Patterson]

Gary,

We certainly do disagree ! I have spoken to many people who
said that they would not choose a kit if they had to learn how to
read blueprints in order to build it. This was one of the reasons
they chose Murphy kits. Most first-time builders want things to be
as simple as possible.

I have also spoken to at least 3 people who wanted blueprints
- ALL had built older style kits that came with blueprints, and
wanted the same level of comfort...

I guess you pays your money and makes your choice - but why
complain later ??

It sounds like whoever sold you your Super Rebel didn't do
a good job of explaining WHY the first 20 were over $10,000 CHEAPER !!
I'm sorry that happened to you, but it certainly IS reality -
I sold 12 of those first Supers myself, and every one of them had
the situation explained to them. The factory needs and welcomes
the positive feedback from builders, and, as you noted, your
suggestions were implemented for later versions of the manual.

Murphy certainly is not witholding blueprints to give the
builders a hard time ! The reality is that there ARE no complete
sets of blueprints like Van's supplies - this would involve a lot
of extra effort and expense, and Murphy has chosen to go a different
route by supplying exploded views in CAD drawings, and detailed
instructions. They believe that this is an easier way to build
a kitplane - and all those Renegades, Rebels, Mavericks, and
Super Rebels out there already flying seem to support this position !
I agree that sometimes, more dimensions in the instructions would
be helpful, and the manuals ARE being improved when these suggestions
arrive. Please "Keep 'em coming !"

At least we both agree that the SR2500 is a great airplane,
and I'm sure you're going to love yours when you get it flying -
even if you do have to do it without blueprints ! ;-)

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 06:56 PM 9/9/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob,
Added my comments to yours. I think we both want the SR2500 project to
succeed, but we disagree on how to get there.

Gary Bataller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

Gary,

Murphy has chosen a different route with their manuals. MANY
people complained that they could not/would not read blueprints to
build an airplane. Murphy chose to provide mostly finished parts, a
self-jigging design, and exploded view drawings, to help simplify
the building process.

I find it quite unbelievable that 'MANY' people complained about blueprints.
Where exactly did these people pop up? The blueprints are the heart of the
building project and provide the builder with the ability to check their
work, both dimensionally and perspective-wise. I believe Murphy has done a
fantastic job in providing a self-jigging design but the lack of blueprint
IS a big problem. I too have spoken to MANY people.

There IS another reason - PIRACY !! Several "clones" of
early Murphy designs (which DID have blueprints) have appeared on
the market in Italy and several former Soviet countries, for example.
The same has happened to others, like Zenair and Rans. There is little
that a manufacturer can do to protect his work in other countries ...

Granted, this could be a problem. How does Van's Aircraft handle this
though? They continue to provide the complete, fullsize plans with each
kit. In addition, anybody can buy a preview set of plans (which I have
done) which are smaller but completely accurate. If Murphy's solution to
this problem is to withold information from the builders, then so be it.

Murphy has always had a policy of giving price reductions to the
first 10 or 20 buyers of new designs, to get accelerated feedback on
customer needs/desires.

I was one of the initial buyers, but was never asked to provide any such
feedback. Sounds reasonable on paper, but it never happened with me.
However, I did send MANY unsolicitated comments on manual and kit problems
which I believe the Murphy people did incorporate. The comment on price
reductions for feedback is baloney.

The early buyers of the Super Rebel kits got a VERY SUBSTANTIAL
reduction in price in exchange for their acceptance that the manuals
and some parts were still under development, and that they agreed
to help the factory by providing feedback on the suggested improvements
to the manuals. Some builders have been very helpful and supportive ....
and all are quite certain that they will end up with a very satisfactory
airplane !!

I have serial #004 for the SR2500. I would appreciate it if Murphy would
send me a VERY SUBSTANTIAL check for the saving it appears I should have
earned. Hey, I paid the same price as everybody else. Eventually the price
went up on the kits, but then it went done again.
I never comment on the initial kit and manual problems. They were expected
and they were corrected. When I was shorted a large amount of items in the
final kit shipment, the factory took care of the problem, which I greatly
appreciated. My criticism is in the lack of blueprints! Don't cloud the
issue with some motherhood concerning price reductions. What is this, a
soapbox for Murphy?

(Having put over 50 hours on the factory Super in the last
month, flying around Ontario, Quebec, and back out to B.C., I can
tell you THIS IS ONE <GREAT> AIRPLANE !!! It is DEFINITELY the
bargain of the century in terms of price/performance !! )

I agree 1000% with you!!! I saw that the first time I got to fly in one at
Copperstate several years ago and it is confirmed everytime I have seen it
since (several Copperstates, Sun n Fun and Oshkosh). Whenever a potential
builder stops buy to see the project, I hope they walk away with the same
feeling. However, they probably also walk away knowing my feeling about the
lack of blueprints.

All of the aircraft manuals are continually being improved,
so, naturally, the Rebel manual, after 10 years of development, is
more refined than the Super Rebel manual, which is only about 4 years
old, but both are improving at a faster rate, as Tech Support gains
experience. The factory still needs positive feedback on ways to
improve things, and are most receptive. They are planning many more
photos, and would certainly appreciate any that you could submit that
you think would be helpful. (There are only 3 of them, and they have
over 1,500 builders to help, some daily, as well as trying to improve
the manuals !!) I'm sure they will thank you for the help !

I always try to give positive feedback to the factory. They ALWAYS provide
timely and accurate response. The manual is evolving and getting better (I
have about 6 versions at this point). I feel very strongly that the
blueprints need to be provided to legitimate builders, maybe after signed a
non-disclosure agreement.

....bobp

------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 09:11 PM 9/7/00 -0400, you wrote:

Mike,
The instructions are still a MAJOR problem in the Super Rebel kit. Very
frustrating! I would really appreciate it if Murphy would provide

full-size

blueprints (ala Van's Aircraft) and lots of photos and assembly drawings.
I've had several perspective SR2500 customers stop by and they are

somewhat

turned off by the lack of blueprints and photos. However, they do like

the

quality of the components.

I've recently purchased some SR2500 drawings from Gordon Hindle;
www.lynx.net/gordon
Thanks to Gordon, we actually have nice drawing of the SR2500. Why the

heck

isn't Murphy doing this?


----- Original Message -----
From: <Mnleber@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

getting information from the manual. The flaps and ailerons on REBEL are
tied together. You are right they really need something that includes
information detailing overall assembly so we can see how things work
together. I was having same problem with the elevator until I went up and
saw Waynes bird. Then it became clear. More information would probably

help

prevent a lot of mistakes and stress if we could see what kind of

tolerances

we could work with. Unfortunately I find the lack of dimensions on

drawings

somewhat disconcerting as it doesn't allow for double checking. It means

we

have to take a lot on faith and assume the manuals are correct. I guess
that's one very good reason for this forum. It has helped me a lot, if

for

no other reason to reduce the stress !!!

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Archives located at:
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[Gary Bataller]

Bob,
Peace.
I guess since I paid in the 23K$ range for serial #004 I was screwed, as I
certainly did not save 10K$ as you suggest; no further speculation or
comments required on this point. But as I have said, I hold no bad feelings
concerning having received an early kit (none, whatsoever!). My comments
apply to today, Sept. 10, 2000. I certainly take offense to your reference
to 'complaining later'. Totally not appropriate!
I certainly intend to post my building experiences to all who wish to visit
the site. I do not have any conflict of interest to Murphy Aircraft (as it
appears you certainly do; but so be it). I just want to get my kit flying
safely, and feedback my experiences to other builders.
As for this mailing group; not quite sure if this is a Murphy sponsored
discussion or a real builders discussion forum Hopefully it is the latter.

Gary B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

Gary,

We certainly do disagree ! I have spoken to many people who
said that they would not choose a kit if they had to learn how to
read blueprints in order to build it. This was one of the reasons
they chose Murphy kits. Most first-time builders want things to be
as simple as possible.

I have also spoken to at least 3 people who wanted blueprints
- ALL had built older style kits that came with blueprints, and
wanted the same level of comfort...

I guess you pays your money and makes your choice - but why
complain later ??

It sounds like whoever sold you your Super Rebel didn't do
a good job of explaining WHY the first 20 were over $10,000 CHEAPER !!
I'm sorry that happened to you, but it certainly IS reality -
I sold 12 of those first Supers myself, and every one of them had
the situation explained to them. The factory needs and welcomes
the positive feedback from builders, and, as you noted, your
suggestions were implemented for later versions of the manual.

Murphy certainly is not witholding blueprints to give the
builders a hard time ! The reality is that there ARE no complete
sets of blueprints like Van's supplies - this would involve a lot
of extra effort and expense, and Murphy has chosen to go a different
route by supplying exploded views in CAD drawings, and detailed
instructions. They believe that this is an easier way to build
a kitplane - and all those Renegades, Rebels, Mavericks, and
Super Rebels out there already flying seem to support this position !
I agree that sometimes, more dimensions in the instructions would
be helpful, and the manuals ARE being improved when these suggestions
arrive. Please "Keep 'em coming !"

At least we both agree that the SR2500 is a great airplane,
and I'm sure you're going to love yours when you get it flying -
even if you do have to do it without blueprints ! ;-)

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 06:56 PM 9/9/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob,
Added my comments to yours. I think we both want the SR2500 project to
succeed, but we disagree on how to get there.

Gary Bataller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

Gary,

Murphy has chosen a different route with their manuals. MANY
people complained that they could not/would not read blueprints to
build an airplane. Murphy chose to provide mostly finished parts, a
self-jigging design, and exploded view drawings, to help simplify
the building process.

I find it quite unbelievable that 'MANY' people complained about

blueprints.

Where exactly did these people pop up? The blueprints are the heart of

the

building project and provide the builder with the ability to check their
work, both dimensionally and perspective-wise. I believe Murphy has done

a

fantastic job in providing a self-jigging design but the lack of

blueprint

IS a big problem. I too have spoken to MANY people.

There IS another reason - PIRACY !! Several "clones" of
early Murphy designs (which DID have blueprints) have appeared on
the market in Italy and several former Soviet countries, for example.
The same has happened to others, like Zenair and Rans. There is little
that a manufacturer can do to protect his work in other countries ...

Granted, this could be a problem. How does Van's Aircraft handle this
though? They continue to provide the complete, fullsize plans with each
kit. In addition, anybody can buy a preview set of plans (which I have
done) which are smaller but completely accurate. If Murphy's solution to
this problem is to withold information from the builders, then so be it.

Murphy has always had a policy of giving price reductions to

the

first 10 or 20 buyers of new designs, to get accelerated feedback on
customer needs/desires.

I was one of the initial buyers, but was never asked to provide any such
feedback. Sounds reasonable on paper, but it never happened with me.
However, I did send MANY unsolicitated comments on manual and kit

problems

which I believe the Murphy people did incorporate. The comment on price
reductions for feedback is baloney.

The early buyers of the Super Rebel kits got a VERY SUBSTANTIAL
reduction in price in exchange for their acceptance that the manuals
and some parts were still under development, and that they agreed
to help the factory by providing feedback on the suggested improvements
to the manuals. Some builders have been very helpful and supportive

....

and all are quite certain that they will end up with a very

satisfactory

airplane !!

I have serial #004 for the SR2500. I would appreciate it if Murphy would
send me a VERY SUBSTANTIAL check for the saving it appears I should have
earned. Hey, I paid the same price as everybody else. Eventually the

price

went up on the kits, but then it went done again.
I never comment on the initial kit and manual problems. They were

expected

and they were corrected. When I was shorted a large amount of items in

the

final kit shipment, the factory took care of the problem, which I greatly
appreciated. My criticism is in the lack of blueprints! Don't cloud the
issue with some motherhood concerning price reductions. What is this, a
soapbox for Murphy?

(Having put over 50 hours on the factory Super in the last
month, flying around Ontario, Quebec, and back out to B.C., I can
tell you THIS IS ONE <GREAT> AIRPLANE !!! It is DEFINITELY the
bargain of the century in terms of price/performance !! )

I agree 1000% with you!!! I saw that the first time I got to fly in one

at

Copperstate several years ago and it is confirmed everytime I have seen

it

since (several Copperstates, Sun n Fun and Oshkosh). Whenever a

potential

builder stops buy to see the project, I hope they walk away with the same
feeling. However, they probably also walk away knowing my feeling about

the

lack of blueprints.

All of the aircraft manuals are continually being improved,
so, naturally, the Rebel manual, after 10 years of development, is
more refined than the Super Rebel manual, which is only about 4 years
old, but both are improving at a faster rate, as Tech Support gains
experience. The factory still needs positive feedback on ways to
improve things, and are most receptive. They are planning many more
photos, and would certainly appreciate any that you could submit that
you think would be helpful. (There are only 3 of them, and they have
over 1,500 builders to help, some daily, as well as trying to improve
the manuals !!) I'm sure they will thank you for the help !

I always try to give positive feedback to the factory. They ALWAYS

provide

timely and accurate response. The manual is evolving and getting better

(I

have about 6 versions at this point). I feel very strongly that the
blueprints need to be provided to legitimate builders, maybe after signed

a

non-disclosure agreement.

....bobp

------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------

-

At 09:11 PM 9/7/00 -0400, you wrote:

Very

full-size

drawings.

somewhat

like

the

the

heck

are

and

help

tolerances

drawings

means

we

guess

for

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

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-

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*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

---------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

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---------*

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--------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Archives located at:
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[Bob Patterson]

Gary,
Peace !

For my part, I'm an independant Rebel builder (who bought the
first Rebel kit, before the prototype was even built !) who is now
an independant rep. for the factory, trying to sell kits wherever
I can. I have never pretended otherwise .... We're now on our
FOURTH Rebel (still have #001), and LOVE the airplane.

This list is run by Mike Davis, who is COMPLETELY independant
- he doesn't even own a Rebel (yet :-) ). It has been a fantastic
forum for everyone to exchange ideas and suggestions, and the factory
has left it alone, except on rare occasions when someone has promoted
an idea that could be seriously dangerous ! ALL of us Murphy builders
are EXTREMELY grateful to Mike for all his efforts in keeping this
mail list alive - it REALLY IS a tremendous aid for every one of us,
and the archives are an ongoing resource for those following along !!

My wife and I run the Rebel Builders of Ontario group here,
with meetings every 2 months, for the 100+ Rebel builders in our area.
(We also have 28 Renegades, 14 Super Rebels, and 2 Mavericks !)
These are get-togethers where we exchange tips & tricks for building,
new suppliers, etc. I try to pass along any good ideas that come
out of these meetings, although it's just too much work to get them
all - this IS a volunteer operation ! I'm always happy to try to
steer someone in the right direction, although I'm NOT a super-experienced
builder (we can call on folks like Wayne for <detailed> advice !)

I do feel I have to jump in and reply to comments like:
" The comment on price reductions for feedback is baloney. "
when I know that they are not correct - at least, in <my> experience....
I still have printed brochures here showing the initial price of the
first Super Rebel kits as $16,000US - and the ONLY thing that could
be shipped at that point was the tail kit. We were quite specific
that the wings <could> be as long as another year ...
Again, I'm sorry you didn't have the same buying experience as
the SR builders here, but I'm glad you're pleased with the kit,
and I'm sure the factory appreciates your feedback & suggestions.

Your web site provides several very useful views and photos
of the Super, and is an excellent complement to this mail list -
thanks for putting it up ! ALL input is very helpful, and we are
ALL trying to help each other get flying as quickly and safely
as possible. Please continue to post your building experiences
and suggestions - and I will try to contribute my experiences
with flying (and fixing) the various Murphy aircraft that I have
the opportunity to fly.

.....bobp

---------------------------orig.----------------------------------------
At 07:59 PM 9/10/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob,
Peace.
I guess since I paid in the 23K$ range for serial #004 I was screwed, as I
certainly did not save 10K$ as you suggest; no further speculation or
comments required on this point. But as I have said, I hold no bad feelings
concerning having received an early kit (none, whatsoever!). My comments
apply to today, Sept. 10, 2000. I certainly take offense to your reference
to 'complaining later'. Totally not appropriate!
I certainly intend to post my building experiences to all who wish to visit
the site. I do not have any conflict of interest to Murphy Aircraft (as it
appears you certainly do; but so be it). I just want to get my kit flying
safely, and feedback my experiences to other builders.
As for this mailing group; not quite sure if this is a Murphy sponsored
discussion or a real builders discussion forum Hopefully it is the latter.

Gary B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

Gary,

We certainly do disagree ! I have spoken to many people who
said that they would not choose a kit if they had to learn how to
read blueprints in order to build it. This was one of the reasons
they chose Murphy kits. Most first-time builders want things to be
as simple as possible.

I have also spoken to at least 3 people who wanted blueprints
- ALL had built older style kits that came with blueprints, and
wanted the same level of comfort...

I guess you pays your money and makes your choice - but why
complain later ??

It sounds like whoever sold you your Super Rebel didn't do
a good job of explaining WHY the first 20 were over $10,000 CHEAPER !!
I'm sorry that happened to you, but it certainly IS reality -
I sold 12 of those first Supers myself, and every one of them had
the situation explained to them. The factory needs and welcomes
the positive feedback from builders, and, as you noted, your
suggestions were implemented for later versions of the manual.

Murphy certainly is not witholding blueprints to give the
builders a hard time ! The reality is that there ARE no complete
sets of blueprints like Van's supplies - this would involve a lot
of extra effort and expense, and Murphy has chosen to go a different
route by supplying exploded views in CAD drawings, and detailed
instructions. They believe that this is an easier way to build
a kitplane - and all those Renegades, Rebels, Mavericks, and
Super Rebels out there already flying seem to support this position !
I agree that sometimes, more dimensions in the instructions would
be helpful, and the manuals ARE being improved when these suggestions
arrive. Please "Keep 'em coming !"

At least we both agree that the SR2500 is a great airplane,
and I'm sure you're going to love yours when you get it flying -
even if you do have to do it without blueprints ! ;-)

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 06:56 PM 9/9/00 -0400, you wrote:

Bob,
Added my comments to yours. I think we both want the SR2500 project to
succeed, but we disagree on how to get there.

Gary Bataller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: murphy-rebel Digest for 6 Sep 2000

I find it quite unbelievable that 'MANY' people complained about

blueprints.

Where exactly did these people pop up? The blueprints are the heart of

the

building project and provide the builder with the ability to check their
work, both dimensionally and perspective-wise. I believe Murphy has done

a

fantastic job in providing a self-jigging design but the lack of

blueprint

IS a big problem. I too have spoken to MANY people.

Granted, this could be a problem. How does Van's Aircraft handle this
though? They continue to provide the complete, fullsize plans with each
kit. In addition, anybody can buy a preview set of plans (which I have
done) which are smaller but completely accurate. If Murphy's solution to
this problem is to withold information from the builders, then so be it.

the

I was one of the initial buyers, but was never asked to provide any such
feedback. Sounds reasonable on paper, but it never happened with me.
However, I did send MANY unsolicitated comments on manual and kit

problems

which I believe the Murphy people did incorporate. The comment on price
reductions for feedback is baloney.

....

satisfactory

I have serial #004 for the SR2500. I would appreciate it if Murphy would
send me a VERY SUBSTANTIAL check for the saving it appears I should have
earned. Hey, I paid the same price as everybody else. Eventually the

price

went up on the kits, but then it went done again.
I never comment on the initial kit and manual problems. They were

expected

and they were corrected. When I was shorted a large amount of items in

the

final kit shipment, the factory took care of the problem, which I greatly
appreciated. My criticism is in the lack of blueprints! Don't cloud the
issue with some motherhood concerning price reductions. What is this, a
soapbox for Murphy?
I agree 1000% with you!!! I saw that the first time I got to fly in one

at

Copperstate several years ago and it is confirmed everytime I have seen

it

since (several Copperstates, Sun n Fun and Oshkosh). Whenever a

potential

builder stops buy to see the project, I hope they walk away with the same
feeling. However, they probably also walk away knowing my feeling about

the

lack of blueprints.
I always try to give positive feedback to the factory. They ALWAYS

provide

timely and accurate response. The manual is evolving and getting better

(I

have about 6 versions at this point). I feel very strongly that the
blueprints need to be provided to legitimate builders, maybe after signed

a

non-disclosure agreement.

------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------

-

Very

full-size

drawings.

somewhat

like

the

the

heck

are

and

help tolerances drawings

means

we

guess

for

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

-

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

-

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

--------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-

--------*

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------*

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*

The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
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Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------*


*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
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Archives located at:
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*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Archives located at:
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*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*




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