[rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear

[Jesse Jenks]

I am sad to hear stories of bent landing gear. I plan to do off airport
rough landings, and hopefully takeoffs too. I am close to building the gear,
and had planned on die springs. I want the most rugged gear possible. I must
admit that I have been skeptical of the aluminum tube gear, but it is
reported to be better than the spring gear. Too late for spring gear anyway,
my fuselage is done. I have thought on and off about having an all-steel
gear welded up to fit the mounting points on the fuselage. It could use die
springs and look like the standard gear, or perhaps be a totally different
suspension design. Something like the Wilga gear (trailing link) would be
cool. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Also, Wayne offers a double die-spring setup. Has anyone tried it? That
should give more travel, and theoretically help prevent bottoming.
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 09:07:06 -0400

Well maybe but I have a different thought.
The bungee gear comes to an abrupt stop too when bottomed out against
the cable unless of course the cable breaks -and it will break with some
of the installations that are being used and that is going to be a large
repair job. Discussion should be in the archives but as I recall the
die spring gear does not bottom out before a factory setup bungee
although of course you are free to add extra bungee strength if you have
AN6 bolts holding them. Ducky has been through a lot with the die
springs and no damage yet and it is comforting to know that any likely
damage is normally just a bent gear leg. I do agree that some rubber
bottoming dampers to soften a full extension bottom out would be
comforting but I haven't figured out how to do that easily or whether it
is worth the effort. Perhaps worthy of some thought. Maybe I'll add some
indicator of max extension to see how much movement I'm actually getting
on my springs.

Bungees will convert some energy into heat and reduce subsequent
bouncing but I doubt that helps the first impact much. I'd guess that
the tires scrubbing sideways as they are pushed sideways at touchdown is
probably a much larger energy absorbing mechanism on pavement unless
landing on only one wheel.

One of my flats I attribute to low pressure and and tire rotation on the
rim and after making other inquiries I now keep 21 psi minimum in my
small 600x6 tires.

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:
Thanks Dale !

We all had a GREAT Ramble !! The weather was just marvelous,
we only had one rain day, and a superb trip through The Rocks !
We got a fair bit of exposure to "hot & high" flying - it was in
the 90's several days, in B.C., Idaho & Montana.

We did learn that the die spring gear really does have the
limitations I thought it might, in the beginning. If you have the
die springs, and are flying 'near' gross, be VERY gentle with
your landings, and run the big fat tires, a bit soft ... :-(

Two Ramblers bent their front gear legs on 'firm' landings -
nothing that would normally have been a problem .... but when the
die springs run out of travel, there's a pretty strong "thump" that
will bend that big front tube inward !

Sorry you couldn't make it to Oshkosh - there were many
folks looking for you. Hope to see your Moose in the air soooooon !!

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[Ken]

All steel stronger gear might mean months of repair work instead of a
couple of hours to fix a bent gear leg when something bad happens. I
believe there have been incidents of damaging the fuselage even with
the aluminum gear legs. I think it is pretty rare to actually break a
gear leg which would certainly cause a lot of damage.

I think you will be happy with the bungees or the die springs. I
haven't heard of anyone trying the double die spring. IIRCC Wayne
wasn't recommending that too highly when he tried it. Perhaps it was too
bouncy without some oleos or something to dampen things but the details
should be in the archives. Dampening and weight was why I stuck with
one spring.

The thing about a ramble is that every runway is unfamiliar and a
different width and length and some were fairly high density altitude.
Some were incovenient to backtrack on. Some nights were short and a few
days were long. It may have taken us awhile to decide that the prudent
thing in such circumstances was to land with bit of power rather than
hone our short field skills.

Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

I am sad to hear stories of bent landing gear. I plan to do off airport
rough landings, and hopefully takeoffs too. I am close to building the gear,
and had planned on die springs. I want the most rugged gear possible. I must
admit that I have been skeptical of the aluminum tube gear, but it is
reported to be better than the spring gear. Too late for spring gear anyway,
my fuselage is done. I have thought on and off about having an all-steel
gear welded up to fit the mounting points on the fuselage. It could use die
springs and look like the standard gear, or perhaps be a totally different
suspension design. Something like the Wilga gear (trailing link) would be
cool. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Also, Wayne offers a double die-spring setup. Has anyone tried it? That
should give more travel, and theoretically help prevent bottoming.
Jesse

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[Bob Patterson]

Cheer up, Jesse ! :-)

As Ken says, you are unlikely to be so heavily loaded,
on a strange strip, at high density altitudes, and fatigued
to the point of cloudy judgement.... but if you are,
the Rebel will fly you home !

Actually, the repairs were surprisingly easy, and the damage
minimal - MUCH less than you would have seen on almost ANY
other aircraft ! The aluminum tube gear is pretty strong.
I've seen a Rebel with welded steel gear that broke off, on
a landing that didn't bother the stock bungee gear. You do have to
watch for Wayne's "bigger band-aid" syndrome - if the gear legs
were much stronger, you would do substantial damage
to the main fuselage structure !

I continue to be impressed with the engineering in
the Rebel design. Everything is designed to crumple or
bend to absorb energy and protect the occupants and
the structure - and IT WORKS !!!

Ken's right - you will be happy with either the bungees
or the die springs. There's likely a few issues with the
double die springs - I don't like the looks, or the weight
and drag ! If you are planning rough strips, definitely
look at the Dico or Carlyle fat tires - a bit soft ! These
are the primary energy absorbers anyway ....

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 04 August 2007 00:28, Jesse Jenks wrote:

I am sad to hear stories of bent landing gear. I plan to do off airport
rough landings, and hopefully takeoffs too. I am close to building the
gear, and had planned on die springs. I want the most rugged gear possible.
I must admit that I have been skeptical of the aluminum tube gear, but it
is reported to be better than the spring gear. Too late for spring gear
anyway, my fuselage is done. I have thought on and off about having an
all-steel gear welded up to fit the mounting points on the fuselage. It
could use die springs and look like the standard gear, or perhaps be a
totally different suspension design. Something like the Wilga gear
(trailing link) would be cool. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Also, Wayne offers a double die-spring setup. Has anyone tried it? That
should give more travel, and theoretically help prevent bottoming.
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 09:07:06 -0400

Well maybe but I have a different thought.
The bungee gear comes to an abrupt stop too when bottomed out against
the cable unless of course the cable breaks -and it will break with some
of the installations that are being used and that is going to be a large
repair job. Discussion should be in the archives but as I recall the
die spring gear does not bottom out before a factory setup bungee
although of course you are free to add extra bungee strength if you have
AN6 bolts holding them. Ducky has been through a lot with the die
springs and no damage yet and it is comforting to know that any likely
damage is normally just a bent gear leg. I do agree that some rubber
bottoming dampers to soften a full extension bottom out would be
comforting but I haven't figured out how to do that easily or whether it
is worth the effort. Perhaps worthy of some thought. Maybe I'll add some
indicator of max extension to see how much movement I'm actually getting
on my springs.

Bungees will convert some energy into heat and reduce subsequent
bouncing but I doubt that helps the first impact much. I'd guess that
the tires scrubbing sideways as they are pushed sideways at touchdown is
probably a much larger energy absorbing mechanism on pavement unless
landing on only one wheel.

One of my flats I attribute to low pressure and and tire rotation on the
rim and after making other inquiries I now keep 21 psi minimum in my
small 600x6 tires.

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:
Thanks Dale !

We all had a GREAT Ramble !! The weather was just marvelous,
we only had one rain day, and a superb trip through The Rocks !
We got a fair bit of exposure to "hot & high" flying - it was in
the 90's several days, in B.C., Idaho & Montana.

We did learn that the die spring gear really does have the
limitations I thought it might, in the beginning. If you have the
die springs, and are flying 'near' gross, be VERY gentle with
your landings, and run the big fat tires, a bit soft ... :-(

Two Ramblers bent their front gear legs on 'firm' landings -
nothing that would normally have been a problem .... but when the
die springs run out of travel, there's a pretty strong "thump" that
will bend that big front tube inward !

Sorry you couldn't make it to Oshkosh - there were many
folks looking for you. Hope to see your Moose in the air soooooon !!

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[bransom]

Jesse
I'm with you on wanting the best landing gear possible. With no Rebel
experience, just reading here for a few years, and knowing what rough
terrain feels like, I'm pretty open to the idea that improvements are
possible. Although bigger soft tires may be the simplest and cheapest
"design" improvement, I still kick around the idea of doing something
different. For starters tho, as advised by so many, I will just aim to get
it flying.
-Ben

I am sad to hear stories of bent landing gear. I plan to do off airport
rough landings, and hopefully takeoffs too. I am close to building the gear,
and had planned on die springs. I want the most rugged gear possible. I must
admit that I have been skeptical of the aluminum tube gear, but it is
reported to be better than the spring gear. Too late for spring gear anyway,
my fuselage is done. I have thought on and off about having an all-steel
gear welded up to fit the mounting points on the fuselage. It could use die
springs and look like the standard gear, or perhaps be a totally different
suspension design. Something like the Wilga gear (trailing link) would be
cool. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Also, Wayne offers a double die-spring setup. Has anyone tried it? That
should give more travel, and theoretically help prevent bottoming.
Jesse

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[A Yeoman]

Regards Rebel landing gear, I have been flying my Rebel ( #513) for about 9
years now ( minus 3 years being rebuilt after a slight whoopsie) and have my
spring gear to a point where I would say it is bullet proof. The aircraft
has been well tested in rough of field landings. A few things needed to be
done, such as inserting solid aluminium blocks into the ends of the
carrythroughs, increasing the size of the attach bolts and building a stress
carrying beam that bolts under the straddle brackets and back to a hard
point where the rear bungee gear attach point would normally be, I have
found this distributes the braking type loads and adds immense strength to
the gear attach.

Cheers

Alister (New Zealand)


----- Original Message -----
From: <bransom@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear

Jesse
I'm with you on wanting the best landing gear possible. With no Rebel
experience, just reading here for a few years, and knowing what rough
terrain feels like, I'm pretty open to the idea that improvements are
possible. Although bigger soft tires may be the simplest and cheapest
"design" improvement, I still kick around the idea of doing something
different. For starters tho, as advised by so many, I will just aim to
get
it flying.
-Ben

I am sad to hear stories of bent landing gear. I plan to do off airport
rough landings, and hopefully takeoffs too. I am close to building the
gear,
and had planned on die springs. I want the most rugged gear possible. I
must
admit that I have been skeptical of the aluminum tube gear, but it is
reported to be better than the spring gear. Too late for spring gear
anyway,
my fuselage is done. I have thought on and off about having an all-steel
gear welded up to fit the mounting points on the fuselage. It could use
die
springs and look like the standard gear, or perhaps be a totally
different
suspension design. Something like the Wilga gear (trailing link) would be
cool. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Also, Wayne offers a double die-spring setup. Has anyone tried it? That
should give more travel, and theoretically help prevent bottoming.
Jesse

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[Walter Klatt]

Hi Alister, good to hear from you again. I remember well how you would put
your Rebel to the test on the rough fields and your efforts to beef up the
landing gear. Now with that beam back to the rear bungee attach points,
sounds like you might have the strongest spring gear landing on any Rebel
today.

Re the bungee gear, I had that on mine before I went on floats, and did have
one break. Besides the bad landing that caused it, I discovered afterwards,
that there was a flaw in how it was built (designed?). The inner doubler
square tube that was supposed to strengthen it, ended half way down right in
the center. And that is exactly where the bend happened. If the inner
doubler tube extended all the way down, I think the gear would not have
broke. So not sure how the current gear is being shipped, but if I were
doing the bungee again, I would certainly look at that part. Otherwise, I
think the bungee could be a fairly strong gear.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of A
Yeoman
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 12:53 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear

Regards Rebel landing gear, I have been flying my Rebel ( #513) for about 9
years now ( minus 3 years being rebuilt after a slight whoopsie) and have my

spring gear to a point where I would say it is bullet proof. The aircraft
has been well tested in rough of field landings. A few things needed to be
done, such as inserting solid aluminium blocks into the ends of the
carrythroughs, increasing the size of the attach bolts and building a stress

carrying beam that bolts under the straddle brackets and back to a hard
point where the rear bungee gear attach point would normally be, I have
found this distributes the braking type loads and adds immense strength to
the gear attach.

Cheers

Alister (New Zealand)


----- Original Message -----
From: <bransom@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear

Jesse
I'm with you on wanting the best landing gear possible. With no Rebel
experience, just reading here for a few years, and knowing what rough
terrain feels like, I'm pretty open to the idea that improvements are
possible. Although bigger soft tires may be the simplest and cheapest
"design" improvement, I still kick around the idea of doing something
different. For starters tho, as advised by so many, I will just aim to
get
it flying.
-Ben

I am sad to hear stories of bent landing gear. I plan to do off airport
rough landings, and hopefully takeoffs too. I am close to building the
gear,
and had planned on die springs. I want the most rugged gear possible. I
must
admit that I have been skeptical of the aluminum tube gear, but it is
reported to be better than the spring gear. Too late for spring gear
anyway,
my fuselage is done. I have thought on and off about having an all-steel
gear welded up to fit the mounting points on the fuselage. It could use
die
springs and look like the standard gear, or perhaps be a totally
different
suspension design. Something like the Wilga gear (trailing link) would be
cool. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Also, Wayne offers a double die-spring setup. Has anyone tried it? That
should give more travel, and theoretically help prevent bottoming.
Jesse

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[normisler]

Alister-

I am intregued by your descrption of a stress carrying beam that bolts under the straddle brackets and back to a hard point where the rear bungee gear attach point is located.

Are there any photos of this installation available?

Thanks!

Norm Isler
Elite 702E


-----Original Message-----
From: A Yeoman <yeom@xtra.co.nz>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 3:52 am
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear



Regards Rebel landing gear, I have been flying my Rebel ( #513) for about 9
years now ( minus 3 years being rebuilt after a slight whoopsie) and have my
spring gear to a point where I would say it is bullet proof. The aircraft
has been well tested in rough of field landings. A few things needed to be
done, such as inserting solid aluminium blocks into the ends of the
carrythroughs, increasing the size of the attach bolts and building a stress
carrying beam that bolts under the straddle brackets and back to a hard
point where the rear bungee gear attach point would normally be, I have
found this distributes the braking type loads and adds immense strength to
the gear attach.

Cheers

Alister (New Zealand)


----- Original Message -----
From: <bransom@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear

Jesse
I'm with you on wanting the best landing gear possible. With no Rebel
experience, just reading here for a few years, and knowing what rough
terrain feels like, I'm pretty open to the idea that improvements are
possible. Although bigger soft tires may be the simplest and cheapest
"design" improvement, I still kick around the idea of doing something
different. For starters tho, as advised by so many, I will just aim to
get
it flying.
-Ben

I am sad to hear stories of bent landing gear. I plan to do off airport
rough landings, and hopefully takeoffs too. I am close to building the
gear,
and had planned on die springs. I want the most rugged gear possible. I
must
admit that I have been skeptical of the aluminum tube gear, but it is
reported to be better than the spring gear. Too late for spring gear
anyway,
my fuselage is done. I have thought on and off about having an all-steel
gear welded up to fit the mounting points on the fuselage. It could use
die
springs and look like the standard gear, or perhaps be a totally
different
suspension design. Something like the Wilga gear (trailing link) would be
cool. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Also, Wayne offers a double die-spring setup. Has anyone tried it? That
should give more travel, and theoretically help prevent bottoming.
Jesse

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[Mike Davis]

Hi Alister, I don't think we have a photo of your stress beam installation
on the archive site anymore... that was posted before the server crash a
couple of years ago. Perhaps you could upload a couple again for those who
are interested.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "A Yeoman" <yeom@xtra.co.nz>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear

Regards Rebel landing gear, I have been flying my Rebel ( #513) for about
9
years now ( minus 3 years being rebuilt after a slight whoopsie) and have
my
spring gear to a point where I would say it is bullet proof. The aircraft
has been well tested in rough of field landings. A few things needed to be
done, such as inserting solid aluminium blocks into the ends of the
carrythroughs, increasing the size of the attach bolts and building a
stress
carrying beam that bolts under the straddle brackets and back to a hard
point where the rear bungee gear attach point would normally be, I have
found this distributes the braking type loads and adds immense strength to
the gear attach.

Cheers

Alister (New Zealand)


----- Original Message -----
From: <bransom@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear

Jesse
I'm with you on wanting the best landing gear possible. With no Rebel
experience, just reading here for a few years, and knowing what rough
terrain feels like, I'm pretty open to the idea that improvements are
possible. Although bigger soft tires may be the simplest and cheapest
"design" improvement, I still kick around the idea of doing something
different. For starters tho, as advised by so many, I will just aim to
get
it flying.
-Ben

I am sad to hear stories of bent landing gear. I plan to do off airport
rough landings, and hopefully takeoffs too. I am close to building the
gear,
and had planned on die springs. I want the most rugged gear possible. I
must
admit that I have been skeptical of the aluminum tube gear, but it is
reported to be better than the spring gear. Too late for spring gear
anyway,
my fuselage is done. I have thought on and off about having an all-steel
gear welded up to fit the mounting points on the fuselage. It could use
die
springs and look like the standard gear, or perhaps be a totally
different
suspension design. Something like the Wilga gear (trailing link) would
be
cool. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Also, Wayne offers a double die-spring setup. Has anyone tried it? That
should give more travel, and theoretically help prevent bottoming.
Jesse

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[Ken]

AFAIK my gear leg (and Bob's) is built according to the manual (and
according to the 1650 lb upgrade) and there is no inner doubler. There
is a 1" square tube inserted a few inches into the top and bolted. That
reduces the size or the 1650 lb gear leg to fit into the fuselage attach
brackets. I agree that you don't want that insert extending halfway
down the tube. I believe that the original 1500 lb gear leg was 1"
square tubing all the way with no inserts. Gord Mohr's bronze bushing
kit also only extends down a couple of inches - just far enough to pick
up the top two bolts.
Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:

Hi Alister, good to hear from you again. I remember well how you would put
your Rebel to the test on the rough fields and your efforts to beef up the
landing gear. Now with that beam back to the rear bungee attach points,
sounds like you might have the strongest spring gear landing on any Rebel
today.

Re the bungee gear, I had that on mine before I went on floats, and did have
one break. Besides the bad landing that caused it, I discovered afterwards,
that there was a flaw in how it was built (designed?). The inner doubler
square tube that was supposed to strengthen it, ended half way down right in
the center. And that is exactly where the bend happened. If the inner
doubler tube extended all the way down, I think the gear would not have
broke. So not sure how the current gear is being shipped, but if I were
doing the bungee again, I would certainly look at that part. Otherwise, I
think the bungee could be a fairly strong gear.

Walter

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[Rebflyer]

Hi Allister!
Nice to hear from you again. Hope calving season is going well.
Stay in touch
Curt Martin N97MR



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour




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[Jesse Jenks]

"fatigued to the point of cloudy judgement...."

That pretty much describes a normal day for me Bob!

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 02:51:48 +0000

Cheer up, Jesse ! :-)

As Ken says, you are unlikely to be so heavily loaded,
on a strange strip, at high density altitudes, and fatigued
to the point of cloudy judgement.... but if you are,
the Rebel will fly you home !

Actually, the repairs were surprisingly easy, and the damage
minimal - MUCH less than you would have seen on almost ANY
other aircraft ! The aluminum tube gear is pretty strong.
I've seen a Rebel with welded steel gear that broke off, on
a landing that didn't bother the stock bungee gear. You do have to
watch for Wayne's "bigger band-aid" syndrome - if the gear legs
were much stronger, you would do substantial damage
to the main fuselage structure !

I continue to be impressed with the engineering in
the Rebel design. Everything is designed to crumple or
bend to absorb energy and protect the occupants and
the structure - and IT WORKS !!!

Ken's right - you will be happy with either the bungees
or the die springs. There's likely a few issues with the
double die springs - I don't like the looks, or the weight
and drag ! If you are planning rough strips, definitely
look at the Dico or Carlyle fat tires - a bit soft ! These
are the primary energy absorbers anyway ....

--
......bobp
http://www.prosumers.ca
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 04 August 2007 00:28, Jesse Jenks wrote:

I am sad to hear stories of bent landing gear. I plan to do off airport
rough landings, and hopefully takeoffs too. I am close to building the
gear, and had planned on die springs. I want the most rugged gear

possible.

I must admit that I have been skeptical of the aluminum tube gear, but

it

is reported to be better than the spring gear. Too late for spring gear
anyway, my fuselage is done. I have thought on and off about having an
all-steel gear welded up to fit the mounting points on the fuselage. It
could use die springs and look like the standard gear, or perhaps be a
totally different suspension design. Something like the Wilga gear
(trailing link) would be cool. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Also, Wayne offers a double die-spring setup. Has anyone tried it? That
should give more travel, and theoretically help prevent bottoming.
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 09:07:06 -0400

Well maybe but I have a different thought.
The bungee gear comes to an abrupt stop too when bottomed out against
the cable unless of course the cable breaks -and it will break with

some

of the installations that are being used and that is going to be a

large

repair job. Discussion should be in the archives but as I recall the
die spring gear does not bottom out before a factory setup bungee
although of course you are free to add extra bungee strength if you

have

AN6 bolts holding them. Ducky has been through a lot with the die
springs and no damage yet and it is comforting to know that any likely
damage is normally just a bent gear leg. I do agree that some rubber
bottoming dampers to soften a full extension bottom out would be
comforting but I haven't figured out how to do that easily or whether

it

is worth the effort. Perhaps worthy of some thought. Maybe I'll add

some

indicator of max extension to see how much movement I'm actually

getting

on my springs.

Bungees will convert some energy into heat and reduce subsequent
bouncing but I doubt that helps the first impact much. I'd guess that
the tires scrubbing sideways as they are pushed sideways at touchdown

is

probably a much larger energy absorbing mechanism on pavement unless
landing on only one wheel.

One of my flats I attribute to low pressure and and tire rotation on

the

rim and after making other inquiries I now keep 21 psi minimum in my
small 600x6 tires.

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:
Thanks Dale !

!!




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_________________________________________________________________
Now you can see trouble

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I'm still flying on my 12" (double 6" spring) struts and have two customers
on them as well. Everyone is happy and they do give twice the travel TIME
before things bottom out...giving twice as long for tire scrub to take
place....unless of course you're talking skis on glare ice! I bent a gear
leg in this situtation once on the normal 6" struts + other "slide hammer"
effect damage from when the spring bottomed out. All that said....stock
aluminum bungee struts would have left me with the aircraft belly flat on
the lake surface...wing damage...prop damage.......!!!!!

99% of the situations are just fine on the standard 6" struts. I did the
12's as someone was asking for them and I don't ship stuff without flight
testing it myself first.

:>)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear

All steel stronger gear might mean months of repair work instead of a
couple of hours to fix a bent gear leg when something bad happens. I
believe there have been incidents of damaging the fuselage even with
the aluminum gear legs. I think it is pretty rare to actually break a
gear leg which would certainly cause a lot of damage.

I think you will be happy with the bungees or the die springs. I
haven't heard of anyone trying the double die spring. IIRCC Wayne
wasn't recommending that too highly when he tried it. Perhaps it was too
bouncy without some oleos or something to dampen things but the details
should be in the archives. Dampening and weight was why I stuck with
one spring.

The thing about a ramble is that every runway is unfamiliar and a
different width and length and some were fairly high density altitude.
Some were incovenient to backtrack on. Some nights were short and a few
days were long. It may have taken us awhile to decide that the prudent
thing in such circumstances was to land with bit of power rather than
hone our short field skills.

Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

I am sad to hear stories of bent landing gear. I plan to do off airport
rough landings, and hopefully takeoffs too. I am close to building the
gear,
and had planned on die springs. I want the most rugged gear possible. I
must
admit that I have been skeptical of the aluminum tube gear, but it is
reported to be better than the spring gear. Too late for spring gear
anyway,
my fuselage is done. I have thought on and off about having an all-steel
gear welded up to fit the mounting points on the fuselage. It could use
die
springs and look like the standard gear, or perhaps be a totally different
suspension design. Something like the Wilga gear (trailing link) would be
cool. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Also, Wayne offers a double die-spring setup. Has anyone tried it? That
should give more travel, and theoretically help prevent bottoming.
Jesse

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[Jesse Jenks]

Welcome back Wayne!
Hope you had a great summer.

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:04:21 -0400

I'm still flying on my 12" (double 6" spring) struts and have two customers
on them as well. Everyone is happy and they do give twice the travel TIME
before things bottom out...giving twice as long for tire scrub to take
place....unless of course you're talking skis on glare ice! I bent a gear
leg in this situtation once on the normal 6" struts + other "slide hammer"
effect damage from when the spring bottomed out. All that said....stock
aluminum bungee struts would have left me with the aircraft belly flat on
the lake surface...wing damage...prop damage.......!!!!!

99% of the situations are just fine on the standard 6" struts. I did the
12's as someone was asking for them and I don't ship stuff without flight
testing it myself first.

:>)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear

All steel stronger gear might mean months of repair work instead of a
couple of hours to fix a bent gear leg when something bad happens. I
believe there have been incidents of damaging the fuselage even with
the aluminum gear legs. I think it is pretty rare to actually break a
gear leg which would certainly cause a lot of damage.

I think you will be happy with the bungees or the die springs. I
haven't heard of anyone trying the double die spring. IIRCC Wayne
wasn't recommending that too highly when he tried it. Perhaps it was too
bouncy without some oleos or something to dampen things but the details
should be in the archives. Dampening and weight was why I stuck with
one spring.

The thing about a ramble is that every runway is unfamiliar and a
different width and length and some were fairly high density altitude.
Some were incovenient to backtrack on. Some nights were short and a few
days were long. It may have taken us awhile to decide that the prudent
thing in such circumstances was to land with bit of power rather than
hone our short field skills.

Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

I am sad to hear stories of bent landing gear. I plan to do off airport
rough landings, and hopefully takeoffs too. I am close to building the
gear,
and had planned on die springs. I want the most rugged gear possible. I
must
admit that I have been skeptical of the aluminum tube gear, but it is
reported to be better than the spring gear. Too late for spring gear
anyway,
my fuselage is done. I have thought on and off about having an all-steel
gear welded up to fit the mounting points on the fuselage. It could use
die
springs and look like the standard gear, or perhaps be a totally

different

suspension design. Something like the Wilga gear (trailing link) would

be

cool. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Also, Wayne offers a double die-spring setup. Has anyone tried it? That
should give more travel, and theoretically help prevent bottoming.
Jesse

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[NormIsler]

Welcome back Wayne!

Are the fish all gone from the lake now? :-)

Norm



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Thanks....BUT....I'm only back for today....had to come home and take the
youngest to University in Ottawa on Monday. Got back at 2am this morning and
we're heading back to the lake tomorrow for most of September. Airplane is
still up North and I have some lakes I want to explore yet for next years
fishing spots...since we've depleted the Lake Trout population pretty good
this season. Haven't had a guest skunked yet this summer.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear

Welcome back Wayne!
Hope you had a great summer.

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:04:21 -0400

I'm still flying on my 12" (double 6" spring) struts and have two
customers
on them as well. Everyone is happy and they do give twice the travel TIME
before things bottom out...giving twice as long for tire scrub to take
place....unless of course you're talking skis on glare ice! I bent a gear
leg in this situtation once on the normal 6" struts + other "slide hammer"
effect damage from when the spring bottomed out. All that said....stock
aluminum bungee struts would have left me with the aircraft belly flat on
the lake surface...wing damage...prop damage.......!!!!!

99% of the situations are just fine on the standard 6" struts. I did the
12's as someone was asking for them and I don't ship stuff without flight
testing it myself first.

:>)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rambler Returns/Rebel landing gear

All steel stronger gear might mean months of repair work instead of a
couple of hours to fix a bent gear leg when something bad happens. I
believe there have been incidents of damaging the fuselage even with
the aluminum gear legs. I think it is pretty rare to actually break a
gear leg which would certainly cause a lot of damage.

I think you will be happy with the bungees or the die springs. I
haven't heard of anyone trying the double die spring. IIRCC Wayne
wasn't recommending that too highly when he tried it. Perhaps it was
too
bouncy without some oleos or something to dampen things but the details
should be in the archives. Dampening and weight was why I stuck with
one spring.

The thing about a ramble is that every runway is unfamiliar and a
different width and length and some were fairly high density altitude.
Some were incovenient to backtrack on. Some nights were short and a few
days were long. It may have taken us awhile to decide that the prudent
thing in such circumstances was to land with bit of power rather than
hone our short field skills.

Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

different

be

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_________________________________________________________________
More photos; more messages; more whatever. Windows Live Hotmail - NOW with
5GB storage.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/ ... ni_5G_0907




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