[Fwd: Rivets]

David A. Ricker · Post by **David A. Ricker** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:46 pm

Oops! Sent this to the wrong address.

Dave R.

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------ Start of attached email. Subject: Re: Rivets ------

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David A. Ricker · Post by **David A. Ricker** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:46 pm

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> This is bad, I am not getting any work done!
OK, called AVDEL, they said you want a nice symetric bulb to be formed when the rivet pulls but would not commit to how far the mandrel should pull in to the barrel of the rivet.
Called Rivets Unlimited. They have the rivets we are getting from Murphy made to their spec. They say that you want a nice symetric bulb to be formed when the rivet pulls and that dome of the mandrel should not pull very far into the barrel of the rivet. I described what one of the hand/low pressure pulls looked like and he said this was what they were looking for. The head just pulls into the barrel leaving the dome of the mandrel sticking out .030 - .050" & is gripped at the edges.
He said that if it is pulled fast/hard enough that the mandrel will pull down into the barrel until the added resistance from the sheet you are riveting stops it from stretching radially then the mandrel breaks. This will leave the broken end of the mandrel protruding in thin materials.
Both Avdel & RU stated that the mandrel was designed to break at a set static loading. Adding in the dynamic action caused by the speed at which the air riveter will pull at high pressure you get into a hazy area where the loading of dynamic friction is different from static and also things under shock loading act differently than quasi-static. The load on the mandrel doesn't reach break until the barrel is deformed more than the design called for and the mandrel is pulled farther into the rivet barrel. That said, I have seen some variation in the shape of the set rivet even using low pressure (and presumably would occur by hand also....) so I am sure there is some variation in the material properties from rivet to rivet.
Well folks, there you have it, this is what I have learned this morning, I hope it is useful and it is presented with that in mind. As with any of the information you see here, you mileage may vary so satisfy youself that what you are doing is correct and then proceed!
Back to work now...
Dave R.

David A. Ricker wrote: [quote] [quote]Your following message has been delivered to the 151 members of

David A. Ricker · Post by **David A. Ricker** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:46 pm

Wayne
I didn't go into the rivet fit when I called, I guess for a couple of reasons. First I was looking for info and didn't want to pick on them at that point and more selfishly, we have something like 20,000 of these things so it won't make a big difference for a while yet... Not a bad idea though to let them know that they could improve the product.
The problem looks to me like the dies they use to form the barrels could have a better fit but this would probably involve spending five figure sums so they would probably not want to do that right away! I agree (and Francine even more so!) that it would be easier on the fingers if these things would be easier to put in place.
Yeah, I charge by the hour too but this doesn't pay too well so I had better get back to work. Hope what I have done here helps.
Dave R.
PS Phil & Lisa, this is just what this group is all about, working together we accomplish more than by ourselves. Just look at the talent & experience we have here, I'm sure we or someone one of us knows can answer about any question we might come up with.
Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

David, with that all said, I guess I need to slow down my work pace!!!!!! This is a good thing I guess, because I charge by the hour!!! When you had Rivets Unlimited on the phone, did you complain they make them oversize and your fingers are killing you from putting them in the holes! Blues skies,Wayne
-----Original Message-----
From: David A. Ricker <ricker@dbis.ns.ca (ricker@dbis.ns.ca)>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)>
Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Rivets]
This is bad, I am not getting any work done!
OK, called AVDEL, they said you want a nice symetric bulb to be formed when the rivet pulls but would not commit to how far the mandrel should pull in to the barrel of the rivet.
Called Rivets Unlimited. They have the rivets we are getting from Murphy made to their spec. They say that you want a nice symetric bulb to be formed when the rivet pulls and that dome of the mandrel should not pull very far into the barrel of the rivet. I described what one of the hand/low pressure pulls looked like and he said this was what they were looking for. The head just pulls into the barrel leaving the dome of the mandrel sticking out .030 - .050" & is gripped at the edges.
He said that if it is pulled fast/hard enough that the mandrel will pull down into the barrel until the added resistance from the sheet you are riveting stops it from stretching radially then the mandrel breaks. This will leave the broken end of the mandrel protruding in thin materials.
Both Avdel & RU stated that the mandrel was designed to break at a set static loading. Adding in the dynamic action caused by the speed at which the air riveter will pull at high pressure you get into a hazy area where the loading of dynamic friction is different from static and also things under shock loading act differently than quasi-static. The load on the mandrel doesn't reach break until the barrel is deformed more than the design called for and the mandrel is pulled farther into the rivet barrel. That said, I have seen some variation in the shape of the set rivet even using low pressure (and presumably would occur by hand also....) so I am sure there is some variation in the material properties from rivet to rivet.
Well folks, there you have it, this is what I have learned this morning, I hope it is useful and it is presented with that in mind. As with any of the information you see here, you mileage may vary so satisfy youself that what you are doing is correct and then proceed!
Back to work now...
Dave R.

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca

LisaFly99 · Post by **LisaFly99** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:46 pm

Dave
Thanks for the info on rivets.
Phil&Lisa Smith #460 N414D
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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:46 pm

David, with that all said, I guess I need to slow down my work pace!!!!!! This is a good thing I guess, because I charge by the hour!!!

When you had Rivets Unlimited on the phone, did you complain they make them oversize and your fingers are killing you from putting them in the holes!

Blues skies,
Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: David A. Ricker <ricker@dbis.ns.ca (ricker@dbis.ns.ca)>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)>
Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Rivets]

This is bad, I am not getting any work done!
OK, called AVDEL, they said you want a nice symetric bulb to be formed when the rivet pulls but would not commit to how far the mandrel should pull in to the barrel of the rivet.
Called Rivets Unlimited. They have the rivets we are getting from Murphy made to their spec. They say that you want a nice symetric bulb to be formed when the rivet pulls and that dome of the mandrel should not pull very far into the barrel of the rivet. I described what one of the hand/low pressure pulls looked like and he said this was what they were looking for. The head just pulls into the barrel leaving the dome of the mandrel sticking out .030 - .050" & is gripped at the edges.
He said that if it is pulled fast/hard enough that the mandrel will pull down into the barrel until the added resistance from the sheet you are riveting stops it from stretching radially then the mandrel breaks. This will leave the broken end of the mandrel protruding in thin materials.
Both Avdel & RU stated that the mandrel was designed to break at a set static loading. Adding in the dynamic action caused by the speed at which the air riveter will pull at high pressure you get into a hazy area where the loading of dynamic friction is different from static and also things under shock loading act differently than quasi-static. The load on the mandrel doesn't reach break until the barrel is deformed more than the design called for and the mandrel is pulled farther into the rivet barrel. That said, I have seen some variation in the shape of the set rivet even using low pressure (and presumably would occur by hand also....) so I am sure there is some variation in the material properties from rivet to rivet.
Well folks, there you have it, this is what I have learned this morning, I hope it is useful and it is presented with that in mind. As with any of the information you see here, you mileage may vary so satisfy youself that what you are doing is correct and then proceed!
Back to work now...
Dave R.

Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:46 pm

David,

I purchased my Lemon Twist Yellow Super Bird in 1989. It is a (440 - 4barrel Super Commando) Texas car with 56,000 miles on it! I totally corrected it back to original (right back to the spring clamp style hose clamps on the radiator hoses). Cars were my addiction previous to aircraft and took up as many or more hours as aircraft do today! I also own a 1969 Super Bee ( 383 Magnum 4 gear -B5 Blue with white stripe and Ramcharger Hood) with 58,000 miles on it. I bought it from my Dad when I was 17. He bought it new! My wife has a 1964 Corvette. A plastic piece of junk to a Dodge Man, but that is what she wanted for a 10th anniversary gift! (that was 8 years ago).

My 2 cars get neglected now, and make it out of the garage every 2nd year or so, I just don't have the time anymore. Haven't got a clue why!!!!! I've actually been putting some thought to selling the SuperBird at Auction (or privately). It will have a Reserve bid of $75,000 Cdn on it when/if this happens! In the mean time I consider the collection my retirement fund!

Like you said, back to work!
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

Subject: Re: Rivets
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:00:52 -0800
From: "David A. Ricker" <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
Organization: .
To: "David A. Ricker" <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
References: <001a01bf9381$b2daa100$0732fea9@pentium-ii-266> <38D907FD.9CB9F211@dbis.ns.ca>
OK Wayne, now an off topic thought, you mentioned something about a Superbird in one of your mails, what's the story? How did you come across that rare beast? No pics on the web page?? If I had my pick of "money is no object" toys for my garage the Superbird's sister, the Daytona Hemi would be sitting there beside my F40.

Bob Patterson · Post by **Bob Patterson** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:46 pm

Thanks for all the research, guys !!

You may get a bit of piece of mind from Darryl's words - I believe he
did the original load & stress calculations based on the rivet shear
strength WITHOUT the mandrel being retained - it is a bonus ! (You <know>
how much <closer> our rivets are spaced than Zenair's ! ;-) )

Also, we have found that the mandrels will not fall out if the rivets
are dipped before inserting & pulling. The Epoxy chromate wicks right
up around the mandrel & locks it in place, as well as sealing the rivet,
so water doesn't run through....

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 01:39 PM 3/22/00 -0800, you wrote:

Wayne

I didn't go into the rivet fit when I called, I guess for a couple of
reasons. First I was looking for info and didn't want to pick on them
at that point and more selfishly, we have something like 20,000 of these
things so it won't make a big difference for a while yet... Not a bad
idea though to let them know that they could improve the product.

The problem looks to me like the dies they use to form the barrels could
have a better fit but this would probably involve spending five figure
sums so they would probably not want to do that right away! I agree
(and Francine even more so!) that it would be easier on the fingers if
these things would be easier to put in place.

Yeah, I charge by the hour too but this doesn't pay too well so I had
better get back to work. Hope what I have done here helps.

Dave R.

PS Phil & Lisa, this is just what this group is all about, working
together we accomplish more than by ourselves. Just look at the talent
& experience we have here, I'm sure we or someone one of us knows can
answer about any question we might come up with.

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

David, with that all said, I guess I need to slow down my work
pace!!!!!! This is a good thing I guess, because I charge by the
hour!!! When you had Rivets Unlimited on the phone, did you complain
they make them oversize and your fingers are killing you from putting
them in the holes! Blues skies,Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: David A. Ricker <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Rivets]
This is bad, I am not getting any work done!

OK, called AVDEL, they said you want a nice symetric bulb to
be formed when the rivet pulls but would not commit to how
far the mandrel should pull in to the barrel of the rivet.

Called Rivets Unlimited. They have the rivets we are
getting from Murphy made to their spec. They say that you
want a nice symetric bulb to be formed when the rivet pulls
and that dome of the mandrel should not pull very far into
the barrel of the rivet. I described what one of the
hand/low pressure pulls looked like and he said this was
what they were looking for. The head just pulls into the
barrel leaving the dome of the mandrel sticking out .030 -
.050" & is gripped at the edges.

He said that if it is pulled fast/hard enough that the
mandrel will pull down into the barrel until the added
resistance from the sheet you are riveting stops it from
stretching radially then the mandrel breaks. This will
leave the broken end of the mandrel protruding in thin
materials.

Both Avdel & RU stated that the mandrel was designed to
break at a set static loading. Adding in the dynamic action
caused by the speed at which the air riveter will pull at
high pressure you get into a hazy area where the loading of
dynamic friction is different from static and also things
under shock loading act differently than quasi-static. The
load on the mandrel doesn't reach break until the barrel is
deformed more than the design called for and the mandrel is
pulled farther into the rivet barrel. That said, I have
seen some variation in the shape of the set rivet even using
low pressure (and presumably would occur by hand also....)
so I am sure there is some variation in the material
properties from rivet to rivet.

Well folks, there you have it, this is what I have learned
this morning, I hope it is useful and it is presented with
that in mind. As with any of the information you see here,
you mileage may vary so satisfy youself that what you are
doing is correct and then proceed!

Back to work now...

Dave R.

--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
Wayne
I didn't go into the rivet fit when I called, I guess for a couple of
reasons.  First I was looking for info and didn't want to pick on
them at that point and more selfishly, we have something like 20,000 of
these things so it won't make a big difference for a while yet... 
Not a bad idea though to let them know that they could improve the product.
The problem looks to me like the dies they use to form the barrels could
have a better fit but this would probably involve spending five figure
sums so they would probably not want to do that right away!  I agree
(and Francine even more so!) that it would be easier on the fingers if
these things would be easier to put in place.
Yeah, I charge by the hour too but this doesn't pay too well so I had
better get back to work.  Hope what I have done here helps.
Dave R.
PS  Phil & Lisa, this is just what this group is all about,
working together we accomplish more than by ourselves.  Just look
at the talent & experience we have here, I'm sure we or someone one
of us knows can answer about any question we might come up with.
Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> David, with that all
said, I guess I need to slow down my work pace!!!!!! This is a good
thing I guess, because I charge by the hour!!! When you
had Rivets Unlimited on the phone, did you complain they make them oversize
and your fingers are killing you from putting them in the holes! Blues
skies,Wayne
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:

5px">-----Original

Message-----
 From: David A. Ricker <<A

HREF="mailto:ricker@dbis.ns.ca">ricker@dbis.ns.ca</A>>

To: Murphy Rebel Builders List
<<A

HREF="mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com">murphy-rebel@dcsol.com</A>>

Date: Wednesday, March 22,
2000 12:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [Fwd:

Rivets]

This is bad, I am not getting any work done!
OK, called AVDEL, they said you want a nice symetric bulb to be formed
when the rivet pulls but would not commit to how far the mandrel should
pull in to the barrel of the rivet.
Called Rivets Unlimited.  They have the rivets we are getting from
Murphy made to their spec.  They say that you want a nice symetric
bulb to be formed when the rivet pulls and that dome of the mandrel should
not pull very far into the barrel of the rivet.  I described what
one of the hand/low pressure pulls looked like and he said this was what
they were looking for.  The head just pulls into the barrel leaving
the dome of the mandrel sticking out .030 - .050" & is gripped at the
edges.
He said that if it is pulled fast/hard enough that the mandrel will
pull down into the barrel until the added resistance from the sheet you
are riveting stops it from stretching radially then the mandrel breaks. 
This will leave the broken end of the mandrel protruding in thin materials.
Both Avdel & RU stated that the mandrel was designed to break at
a set static loading.  Adding in the dynamic action caused
by the speed at which the air riveter will pull at high pressure you get
into a hazy area where the loading of dynamic friction is different from
static and also things under shock loading act differently than quasi-static.
The load on the mandrel doesn't reach break until the barrel is deformed
more than the design called for and the mandrel is pulled farther into
the rivet barrel.  That said, I have seen some variation in the shape
of the set rivet even using low pressure (and presumably would occur by
hand also....) so I am sure there is some variation in the material properties
from rivet to rivet.
Well folks, there you have it, this is what I have learned this morning,
I hope it is useful and it is presented with that in mind.  As with
any of the information you see here, you mileage may vary so satisfy youself
that what you are doing is correct and then proceed!
Back to work now...
Dave R.
  
  
  </BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

--
 David A. Ricker P. Eng.
 DARTEC Engineering Inc.
 Fall River, Nova Scotia
 Canada, B2T 1E8
 ricker@dbis.ns.ca
  
</BODY>
</HTML>

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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
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*----------------------------------------------------*

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