[rebel-builders] Rebel - landings

[Bob Patterson]

Hi Ben !

Not sure what you are running into ... if the tail touches first
it's only by 1/2" or so - hardly noticeable. Playing with power
will get you into trouble every time ! I close the throttle as
soon as the runway is made - maybe 200-300 ft up ... and don't
touch it until you want to taxi !

I always take off & land with full flap - that's the way the
Rebel was designed to work. Approach at 75 mph - for safe penetration
of wind shear, and quick descent over trees -- aim a bit before the
numbers, flare & fly level, trying to keep it in the air. This
means <slowly> pulling back, the 'float' gives time to get the tail
down into the right angle, not much time, as the speed bleeds off
quickly with the flaps down. " If the stick is ALL THE WAY BACK
when the wheels touch, you'll have a good landing. " - heard
that often from old instructors ! :-)

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 13 July 2006 09:23 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Ken or others,
Does addition of flaps reduce the tendency for tail to hit first in an
attempt to do a slow landing, e.g, 3 point, even with some power added as
well to limit sink rate?
-Ben

Finally got a couple of nice landings in this morning. Another 45 lb of
ballast probably helped more than I know. I never really felt that I had
much trouble getting the tail down but this is the first time it stayed
down after touching. The wind was also calm for a change which made it a
lot easier to keep from overcontrolling :)
thanks guys
Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

At 04:51 PM 7/10/2006 EDT, you wrote:

Sagerts

was to

Yeah I always make my best landings when my 90lb lab is in the back for a
ride.
Drew

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[Garry Wright]

Arlington seminar 2006 on tailwheels said:

"If the tailwheel touches first (just a touch before the mains) then
when the mains touch the AOA has dropped and any residual lift is
spilled => no bounce. If the mains touch first and then the tailwheel,
the AOA increases, and bounce is more likely" - not that my landings are
any good yet.

Garry

On Sun, 2006-07-16 at 04:32 +0000, Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ben !

Not sure what you are running into ... if the tail touches first
it's only by 1/2" or so - hardly noticeable. Playing with power
will get you into trouble every time ! I close the throttle as
soon as the runway is made - maybe 200-300 ft up ... and don't
touch it until you want to taxi !

I always take off & land with full flap - that's the way the
Rebel was designed to work. Approach at 75 mph - for safe penetration
of wind shear, and quick descent over trees -- aim a bit before the
numbers, flare & fly level, trying to keep it in the air. This
means <slowly> pulling back, the 'float' gives time to get the tail
down into the right angle, not much time, as the speed bleeds off
quickly with the flaps down. " If the stick is ALL THE WAY BACK
when the wheels touch, you'll have a good landing. " - heard
that often from old instructors ! :-)

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[bransom]

No finished plane to play with yet, but I was asking about adding flaps in
this because I've gained some impression that many Rebel pilots don't use
them much. I thought that because of the typical pitch down with flaps,
adding them might help with getting a slow 3-point landing without the tail
hitting way early. Glad to hear Bob that you find the flaps useful all the
time -- i was beginning to wonder.
-Ben

Hi Ben !

Not sure what you are running into ... if the tail touches first
it's only by 1/2" or so - hardly noticeable. Playing with power
will get you into trouble every time ! I close the throttle as
soon as the runway is made - maybe 200-300 ft up ... and don't
touch it until you want to taxi !

I always take off & land with full flap - that's the way the
Rebel was designed to work. Approach at 75 mph - for safe penetration
of wind shear, and quick descent over trees -- aim a bit before the
numbers, flare & fly level, trying to keep it in the air. This
means <slowly> pulling back, the 'float' gives time to get the tail
down into the right angle, not much time, as the speed bleeds off
quickly with the flaps down. " If the stick is ALL THE WAY BACK
when the wheels touch, you'll have a good landing. " - heard
that often from old instructors ! :-)

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 13 July 2006 09:23 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Ken or others,
Does addition of flaps reduce the tendency for tail to hit first in an
attempt to do a slow landing, e.g, 3 point, even with some power added as
well to limit sink rate?
-Ben

Finally got a couple of nice landings in this morning. Another 45 lb of
ballast probably helped more than I know. I never really felt that I had
much trouble getting the tail down but this is the first time it stayed
down after touching. The wind was also calm for a change which made it a
lot easier to keep from overcontrolling :)
thanks guys
Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

Sagerts

easier it

10.5. So

for a

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[Jesse Jenks]

I have not flown a Rebel, but here's an observation from a lot of experience
in 2 pilot airplanes where you get to fly with hundreds of pilots over the
years. The majority of pilots I've flown with (seasoned veterans and total
newbies) like to use less than full flaps, and land faster than the
"optimal" nose high slow speed touchdown. I flew with guys in the Twin Otter
who landed like it was a Lear Jet.
My theory is that it takes much more skill and finesse and better airspeed
control on final to make a good nose high touchdown, and many pilots find it
much easier to get a greaser using less flaps and a flatter attitude. Of
course this eats up runway, but they get the ego boost of a smooth landing.
I, on the other hand, am always trying to get that perfect nose high, full
flap landing, and consequently bounce one now and then. That's my excuse
anyway.
FWIW.
Jesse

From: bransom@dcsol.com
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - landings
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:40:11 -0800

No finished plane to play with yet, but I was asking about adding flaps in
this because I've gained some impression that many Rebel pilots don't use
them much. I thought that because of the typical pitch down with flaps,
adding them might help with getting a slow 3-point landing without the tail
hitting way early. Glad to hear Bob that you find the flaps useful all the
time -- i was beginning to wonder.
-Ben

Hi Ben !

Not sure what you are running into ... if the tail touches first
it's only by 1/2" or so - hardly noticeable. Playing with power
will get you into trouble every time ! I close the throttle as
soon as the runway is made - maybe 200-300 ft up ... and don't
touch it until you want to taxi !

I always take off & land with full flap - that's the way the
Rebel was designed to work. Approach at 75 mph - for safe penetration
of wind shear, and quick descent over trees -- aim a bit before the
numbers, flare & fly level, trying to keep it in the air. This
means <slowly> pulling back, the 'float' gives time to get the tail
down into the right angle, not much time, as the speed bleeds off
quickly with the flaps down. " If the stick is ALL THE WAY BACK
when the wheels touch, you'll have a good landing. " - heard
that often from old instructors ! :-)

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 13 July 2006 09:23 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Ken or others,
Does addition of flaps reduce the tendency for tail to hit first in an
attempt to do a slow landing, e.g, 3 point, even with some power added

as

well to limit sink rate?
-Ben

of

had

stayed

it a

Sagerts

easier it

10.5. So

for a

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[Collin and Bobbie]

I have flaps installed in my Rebel #225. I find it difficult to achieve a
true 3-point landing. Only with a subtle application of timely power - 100
or so RPM increase - can I get the tail down in coordination with the mains.
The tail wheel follows almost instantly after a proper power-off approach
but I cannot call it a true 3-point.
I am interested in knowing how folks are getting the tail wheel down prior
to the mains. I don't seem to have the elevator authority.
Collin

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:40 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - landings

No finished plane to play with yet, but I was asking about adding flaps in
this because I've gained some impression that many Rebel pilots don't use
them much. I thought that because of the typical pitch down with flaps,
adding them might help with getting a slow 3-point landing without the tail
hitting way early. Glad to hear Bob that you find the flaps useful all the
time -- i was beginning to wonder.
-Ben

Hi Ben !

Not sure what you are running into ... if the tail touches first
it's only by 1/2" or so - hardly noticeable. Playing with power
will get you into trouble every time ! I close the throttle as
soon as the runway is made - maybe 200-300 ft up ... and don't
touch it until you want to taxi !

I always take off & land with full flap - that's the way the
Rebel was designed to work. Approach at 75 mph - for safe penetration
of wind shear, and quick descent over trees -- aim a bit before the
numbers, flare & fly level, trying to keep it in the air. This
means <slowly> pulling back, the 'float' gives time to get the tail
down into the right angle, not much time, as the speed bleeds off
quickly with the flaps down. " If the stick is ALL THE WAY BACK
when the wheels touch, you'll have a good landing. " - heard
that often from old instructors ! :-)

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 13 July 2006 09:23 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Ken or others,
Does addition of flaps reduce the tendency for tail to hit first in an
attempt to do a slow landing, e.g, 3 point, even with some power added

as

well to limit sink rate?
-Ben

Finally got a couple of nice landings in this morning. Another 45 lb

of

ballast probably helped more than I know. I never really felt that I

had

much trouble getting the tail down but this is the first time it

stayed

down after touching. The wind was also calm for a change which made it

a

lot easier to keep from overcontrolling :)
thanks guys
Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

Sagerts

easier it

10.5. So

for a

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Collin !

One thing that is very important on the Rebel - be sure you have
AT LEAST 27 degrees of UP elevator travel - don't worry too much if
this reduces the down travel to 20 or less ... The other important
factor is the C of G - it will definitely work best if the empty
C of G is around 12 inches -- not that you can't do good landings
elsewhere - my c of g is only 8.1" !! As I mentioned, I find it
easiest to approach at 75 mph - much safer & more comfortable than
dragging it in with power, and it is easier to do a good landing
without the extra variable of power in the mix.

You mention you have "flaps installed" - if that is the split
flap arrangement, that could be the problem. Everyone here uses the
original flapperon setup - especially on floats. It works great
because it changes the shape of the whole airfoil of the wing !
With the split flaps, you get half the flaps and half the ailerons -
not so good in crosswinds, or for short landings. :-(
You also lose the increased cruise speed and better ride in bumpy
air that negative flapperon gives.

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.qbeautyzone.com
-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 18 July 2006 01:57 am, Collin and Bobbie wrote:

I have flaps installed in my Rebel #225. I find it difficult to achieve a
true 3-point landing. Only with a subtle application of timely power - 100
or so RPM increase - can I get the tail down in coordination with the mains.
The tail wheel follows almost instantly after a proper power-off approach
but I cannot call it a true 3-point.
I am interested in knowing how folks are getting the tail wheel down prior
to the mains. I don't seem to have the elevator authority.
Collin

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:40 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - landings

No finished plane to play with yet, but I was asking about adding flaps in
this because I've gained some impression that many Rebel pilots don't use
them much. I thought that because of the typical pitch down with flaps,
adding them might help with getting a slow 3-point landing without the tail
hitting way early. Glad to hear Bob that you find the flaps useful all the
time -- i was beginning to wonder.
-Ben

Hi Ben !

Not sure what you are running into ... if the tail touches first
it's only by 1/2" or so - hardly noticeable. Playing with power
will get you into trouble every time ! I close the throttle as
soon as the runway is made - maybe 200-300 ft up ... and don't
touch it until you want to taxi !

I always take off & land with full flap - that's the way the
Rebel was designed to work. Approach at 75 mph - for safe penetration
of wind shear, and quick descent over trees -- aim a bit before the
numbers, flare & fly level, trying to keep it in the air. This
means <slowly> pulling back, the 'float' gives time to get the tail
down into the right angle, not much time, as the speed bleeds off
quickly with the flaps down. " If the stick is ALL THE WAY BACK
when the wheels touch, you'll have a good landing. " - heard
that often from old instructors ! :-)

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 13 July 2006 09:23 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Ken or others,
Does addition of flaps reduce the tendency for tail to hit first in an
attempt to do a slow landing, e.g, 3 point, even with some power added

as

well to limit sink rate?
-Ben

of

had

stayed

a

Sagerts

easier it

10.5. So

for a

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-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Collin and Bobbie]

Mike, We retained the "aileron droop" feature which can be utilized if the
pilot so chooses. The flap setup allows for a negative setting to match the
negative aileron position if the pilot chooses. It sounds a bit complicated
but in practice it is not.
I don't usually choose to use the "aileron droop" feature upon landing
simply because of the feel of adverse yaw and heavy ailerons. Maybe I
should do some playing with the features on a nice still day.
I don't recall the degrees of up-elevator available. I will check that. I
do recall that the Murphy recommended incidence for the tail plane did not
work at all. That was quickly changed.
Securing 60 or so pounds aft of the seats makes a big difference when the
airplane is lightly loaded. This is a pretty strong clue as to what the
problem might be.
I don't have any problem with the rigging and C of G as it is. I just find
it difficult to 3-point the thing each and every landing.
Thanks for the suggestions.

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 10:25 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - landings


Hi Collin !

One thing that is very important on the Rebel - be sure you have
AT LEAST 27 degrees of UP elevator travel - don't worry too much if
this reduces the down travel to 20 or less ... The other important
factor is the C of G - it will definitely work best if the empty
C of G is around 12 inches -- not that you can't do good landings
elsewhere - my c of g is only 8.1" !! As I mentioned, I find it
easiest to approach at 75 mph - much safer & more comfortable than
dragging it in with power, and it is easier to do a good landing
without the extra variable of power in the mix.

You mention you have "flaps installed" - if that is the split
flap arrangement, that could be the problem. Everyone here uses the
original flapperon setup - especially on floats. It works great
because it changes the shape of the whole airfoil of the wing !
With the split flaps, you get half the flaps and half the ailerons -
not so good in crosswinds, or for short landings. :-(
You also lose the increased cruise speed and better ride in bumpy
air that negative flapperon gives.

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com
http://apatterson2.qbeautyzone.com
-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 18 July 2006 01:57 am, Collin and Bobbie wrote:

I have flaps installed in my Rebel #225. I find it difficult to achieve a
true 3-point landing. Only with a subtle application of timely power -

100

or so RPM increase - can I get the tail down in coordination with the

mains.

The tail wheel follows almost instantly after a proper power-off approach
but I cannot call it a true 3-point.
I am interested in knowing how folks are getting the tail wheel down prior
to the mains. I don't seem to have the elevator authority.
Collin

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 10:40 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel - landings

No finished plane to play with yet, but I was asking about adding flaps in
this because I've gained some impression that many Rebel pilots don't use
them much. I thought that because of the typical pitch down with flaps,
adding them might help with getting a slow 3-point landing without the

tail

hitting way early. Glad to hear Bob that you find the flaps useful all

the

time -- i was beginning to wonder.
-Ben

Hi Ben !

Not sure what you are running into ... if the tail touches first
it's only by 1/2" or so - hardly noticeable. Playing with power
will get you into trouble every time ! I close the throttle as
soon as the runway is made - maybe 200-300 ft up ... and don't
touch it until you want to taxi !

I always take off & land with full flap - that's the way the
Rebel was designed to work. Approach at 75 mph - for safe penetration
of wind shear, and quick descent over trees -- aim a bit before the
numbers, flare & fly level, trying to keep it in the air. This
means <slowly> pulling back, the 'float' gives time to get the tail
down into the right angle, not much time, as the speed bleeds off
quickly with the flaps down. " If the stick is ALL THE WAY BACK
when the wheels touch, you'll have a good landing. " - heard
that often from old instructors ! :-)

--
......bobp
http://bpatterson.qhealthbeauty.com
http://apatterson2.qhealthzone.com

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 13 July 2006 09:23 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Ken or others,
Does addition of flaps reduce the tendency for tail to hit first in an
attempt to do a slow landing, e.g, 3 point, even with some power added

as

well to limit sink rate?
-Ben

of

had

stayed

it

a

Sagerts

easier it

10.5. So

for a

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