2200 amphibious floats

[Gilles St-Pierre]

to All
i m ready to order the floats for my Elite. Wayne seems to affectionate
caarbon fiber Clamar floats (and i have great respect for his opinions) and
so do i. The only things that bothers me is weight....
would like to have some feedback from the pros...!!! Wayne, there is room
for your comments again !
sincerely
gilles
dr gilles st pierre





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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I'll tell you what I really think about them once they are installed the
last week of April (at least that is the plan) to Robert White's Elite.
Weight = 400lbs according to Clair...so that equates to about a 335 lb
increase to empty weight once the wheel gear is pulled off. We'll see the
truth when we weight before and after!

By Al Hepburns install it sounds like Montana's weight this much or more.
ALAN..can you confirm the weight of the Montana floats.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilles St-Pierre" <ranchlaseigneurie@hotmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 5:20 PM
Subject: RE: 2200 amphibious floats

to All
i m ready to order the floats for my Elite. Wayne seems to affectionate
caarbon fiber Clamar floats (and i have great respect for his opinions)

and

so do i. The only things that bothers me is weight....
would like to have some feedback from the pros...!!! Wayne, there is room
for your comments again !
sincerely
gilles
dr gilles st pierre





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[Alan Hepburn]

Here's a straight copy form the manufacturer "total weight of the
installation incuding rigging, spreader bars, hydraulic pumps, step rails,
wiring and electrical and dual water rudders, is 390 lbs."

The floats are all metal, including the hatches. They come with
pre-fabricated top decks and pre-fabricated main gear wells, and pre bent
chines. The wheels are bigger than Murphy's, and there are positive over
centre down locks on all four wheels. All hydraulic lines are either solid
aluminum or braided. There are position sensors on all four wheels, up and
down. There is an electric hydraulic pump which goes in the fuselage, and a
manual backup pump. Displacement is 2,200 lbs per float. The factory says
you can build them with either Avex or solid rivets, but recommends solid.
In the interests of domestic tranquility, I went with Avex except where I
could squeeze them (e.g. the chines).

There are several options for mounting on the Elite. The standard 2200s
have the rear attach point on the float about 18" further forward than on
the Murphys, which keeps the rear spreader more out of the water, but does
involve a fairly raked angle on the rear strut.

Option 1, if you have not yet closed up the floor, Montana provides an
alternate attach bracket that fits at the rear of the door sill. Pics
available.

Option 2, Montana recently delivered (to Jack Wiebe) a modification to put
the rear attach point 1 bay further aft on the float, allowing use of the
standard attach point. You'd probably be serial #2 for this mod, but it
should work well.

Option 3, attach to the standard attach point, and add a steel bracing wire
going forward to an attachment at the rear of the door sill skin to absorb
any aft forces on the attach point. This is what I have, and it has so far
worked well. Pics available.

Given the weight of the floats, if you aren't planning on increasing the
gross, you will not have a lot of useful load to play with, to put it
mildly. I went for 2,200 lbs, and am happy with the result, using O360
power.

Al Hepburn





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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Thanks Alan! Sounds like it's a matter of whether you want alum or glass. We
already have Roberts flight permit for 2200 that is good for six months from
last week. Gives us time to install and get his climb test in... so they can
then issue a new CofA at the weight.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

Here's a straight copy form the manufacturer "total weight of the
installation incuding rigging, spreader bars, hydraulic pumps, step rails,
wiring and electrical and dual water rudders, is 390 lbs."

The floats are all metal, including the hatches. They come with
pre-fabricated top decks and pre-fabricated main gear wells, and pre bent
chines. The wheels are bigger than Murphy's, and there are positive over
centre down locks on all four wheels. All hydraulic lines are either solid
aluminum or braided. There are position sensors on all four wheels, up

and

down. There is an electric hydraulic pump which goes in the fuselage, and

a

manual backup pump. Displacement is 2,200 lbs per float. The factory

says

you can build them with either Avex or solid rivets, but recommends solid.
In the interests of domestic tranquility, I went with Avex except where I
could squeeze them (e.g. the chines).

There are several options for mounting on the Elite. The standard 2200s
have the rear attach point on the float about 18" further forward than on
the Murphys, which keeps the rear spreader more out of the water, but does
involve a fairly raked angle on the rear strut.

Option 1, if you have not yet closed up the floor, Montana provides an
alternate attach bracket that fits at the rear of the door sill. Pics
available.

Option 2, Montana recently delivered (to Jack Wiebe) a modification to put
the rear attach point 1 bay further aft on the float, allowing use of the
standard attach point. You'd probably be serial #2 for this mod, but it
should work well.

Option 3, attach to the standard attach point, and add a steel bracing

wire

going forward to an attachment at the rear of the door sill skin to absorb
any aft forces on the attach point. This is what I have, and it has so

far

worked well. Pics available.

Given the weight of the floats, if you aren't planning on increasing the
gross, you will not have a lot of useful load to play with, to put it
mildly. I went for 2,200 lbs, and am happy with the result, using O360
power.

Al Hepburn





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[Alan Hepburn]

Wayne:

The other big issues are cost and labour. Do the glass ones come ready to
bolt on? The Montanas take maybe 300 or 400 hours to build if you use Avex.
More with solid rivets, which make it a two man job. Cost is available from
the website, but as I recollect was about $14.5K US, which is a bit more
than the Murphys, but worth it for the added buoyancy and other features, if
you can carry the weight.

Al






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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Yes Al...Clamar's come ready to bolt on. Doesn't Montana offer the 2200's
done as well?

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

Wayne:

The other big issues are cost and labour. Do the glass ones come ready to
bolt on? The Montanas take maybe 300 or 400 hours to build if you use

Avex.

More with solid rivets, which make it a two man job. Cost is available

from

the website, but as I recollect was about $14.5K US, which is a bit more
than the Murphys, but worth it for the added buoyancy and other features,

if

you can carry the weight.

Al






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[Alan Hepburn]

Yes, they are available finished (built with solid rivets). Being a
Scotsman, I had completely forgotten abou that option!

I checked their website, and here's the scoop:

Straight kit: $9K
Straight finished: $14
Amphib kit: $15.5
Amphib finished: $24.5

Options are: electric pump, $1K, rigging $2K, steps $400 and step rails
$200. there's also a gear warning system whose price I didn't note
($1500?). All in US$, plus freight. I believe the finished ones come
painted white.

For 10 big ones, it's worth building them. Nothing like a full airplane
project. You can knock them off in a few weeks. And the instructions,
though not perfect, were much less of a mystery than Murphy's.

Al Hepburn





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[british thunder]

What do you recommend for sealing the seams on the skins, during
construction and for minor leaks after?
I tried a marine caulking last summer but it did not adhere on some spots.
I have the floats at home now and want to have them ready for ice out in a
couple of week, If the weather keeps up.
Thanks
Cecil
014R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

Yes, they are available finished (built with solid rivets). Being a
Scotsman, I had completely forgotten abou that option!

I checked their website, and here's the scoop:

Straight kit: $9K
Straight finished: $14
Amphib kit: $15.5
Amphib finished: $24.5

Options are: electric pump, $1K, rigging $2K, steps $400 and step rails
$200. there's also a gear warning system whose price I didn't note
($1500?). All in US$, plus freight. I believe the finished ones come
painted white.

For 10 big ones, it's worth building them. Nothing like a full airplane
project. You can knock them off in a few weeks. And the instructions,
though not perfect, were much less of a mystery than Murphy's.

Al Hepburn





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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I use Sikaflex 1A for construction Cecil and currently well into a set of
1800's right now. It's hard to find sometimes and my colour of choice is
Limestone......but it's a concrete expansion joint sealant that just happens
to have better peel strength on aluminum than it's intended concrete use.
Howard's stayed leak free for almost 8 seasons. They'd still be leak free if
it wasn't for them big holes in the bottom! :O(

I get mine from United Equipment Rentals out on Hwy 90/Dunlop St in Barrie,
Ontario. They rent heavy equipment, cement stuff etc. It's a chain to the
best of my knowledge, so should be some source near you. Be sure if you are
going to use it that you have fresh air hood equipment. It contains
Isocynite and some other nasties. You won't last 6 hours in the shop without
a hood...well you will...but you may not quite know where you are....and
your kidneys will not be amused!

Some also have good results with 3m 5200.

Or you can also go the Proseal/Sealpac route. My prebuilts were done with it
by MAM and my hat's off to whom every built them. Never saw a tea spoon of
water this summer in them.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "british thunder" <britishthunder@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

What do you recommend for sealing the seams on the skins, during
construction and for minor leaks after?
I tried a marine caulking last summer but it did not adhere on some spots.
I have the floats at home now and want to have them ready for ice out in a
couple of week, If the weather keeps up.
Thanks
Cecil
014R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

Yes, they are available finished (built with solid rivets). Being a
Scotsman, I had completely forgotten abou that option!

I checked their website, and here's the scoop:

Straight kit: $9K
Straight finished: $14
Amphib kit: $15.5
Amphib finished: $24.5

Options are: electric pump, $1K, rigging $2K, steps $400 and step rails
$200. there's also a gear warning system whose price I didn't note
($1500?). All in US$, plus freight. I believe the finished ones come
painted white.

For 10 big ones, it's worth building them. Nothing like a full airplane
project. You can knock them off in a few weeks. And the instructions,
though not perfect, were much less of a mystery than Murphy's.

Al Hepburn





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[british thunder]

Thanks Wayne
found a few loose rivets and a bent half bulkhead, will stiffen that, should
help.
Do you scuff the alum. first or just put it straight on?
is it good to put a bead over the seam or will it peal off? The last stuff
peeled off after under water for half the season, I didn't scuff it first.
hard to with all those rivets.
Looks like snow for tomorrow morning.
Thanks
Cecil
014R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

I use Sikaflex 1A for construction Cecil and currently well into a set of
1800's right now. It's hard to find sometimes and my colour of choice is
Limestone......but it's a concrete expansion joint sealant that just

happens

to have better peel strength on aluminum than it's intended concrete use.
Howard's stayed leak free for almost 8 seasons. They'd still be leak free

if

it wasn't for them big holes in the bottom! :O(

I get mine from United Equipment Rentals out on Hwy 90/Dunlop St in

Barrie,

Ontario. They rent heavy equipment, cement stuff etc. It's a chain to the
best of my knowledge, so should be some source near you. Be sure if you

are

going to use it that you have fresh air hood equipment. It contains
Isocynite and some other nasties. You won't last 6 hours in the shop

without

a hood...well you will...but you may not quite know where you are....and
your kidneys will not be amused!

Some also have good results with 3m 5200.

Or you can also go the Proseal/Sealpac route. My prebuilts were done with

it

by MAM and my hat's off to whom every built them. Never saw a tea spoon of
water this summer in them.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "british thunder" <britishthunder@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

What do you recommend for sealing the seams on the skins, during
construction and for minor leaks after?
I tried a marine caulking last summer but it did not adhere on some

spots.

I have the floats at home now and want to have them ready for ice out in

a

couple of week, If the weather keeps up.
Thanks
Cecil
014R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

Yes, they are available finished (built with solid rivets). Being a
Scotsman, I had completely forgotten abou that option!

I checked their website, and here's the scoop:

Straight kit: $9K
Straight finished: $14
Amphib kit: $15.5
Amphib finished: $24.5

Options are: electric pump, $1K, rigging $2K, steps $400 and step

rails

$200. there's also a gear warning system whose price I didn't note
($1500?). All in US$, plus freight. I believe the finished ones come
painted white.

For 10 big ones, it's worth building them. Nothing like a full

airplane

project. You can knock them off in a few weeks. And the

instructions,

though not perfect, were much less of a mystery than Murphy's.

Al Hepburn





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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Like all sealants..surface must be clean and the only way to get a good bond
is to get a good cross hatch into the aluminum with coarse scotchbrite
before applying.

----- Original Message -----
From: "british thunder" <britishthunder@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

Thanks Wayne
found a few loose rivets and a bent half bulkhead, will stiffen that,

should

help.
Do you scuff the alum. first or just put it straight on?
is it good to put a bead over the seam or will it peal off? The last stuff
peeled off after under water for half the season, I didn't scuff it first.
hard to with all those rivets.
Looks like snow for tomorrow morning.
Thanks
Cecil
014R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

I use Sikaflex 1A for construction Cecil and currently well into a set

of

1800's right now. It's hard to find sometimes and my colour of choice is
Limestone......but it's a concrete expansion joint sealant that just

happens

to have better peel strength on aluminum than it's intended concrete

use.

Howard's stayed leak free for almost 8 seasons. They'd still be leak

free

if

it wasn't for them big holes in the bottom! :O(

I get mine from United Equipment Rentals out on Hwy 90/Dunlop St in

Barrie,

Ontario. They rent heavy equipment, cement stuff etc. It's a chain to

the

best of my knowledge, so should be some source near you. Be sure if you

are

going to use it that you have fresh air hood equipment. It contains
Isocynite and some other nasties. You won't last 6 hours in the shop

without

a hood...well you will...but you may not quite know where you are....and
your kidneys will not be amused!

Some also have good results with 3m 5200.

Or you can also go the Proseal/Sealpac route. My prebuilts were done

with

it

by MAM and my hat's off to whom every built them. Never saw a tea spoon

of

water this summer in them.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "british thunder" <britishthunder@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

What do you recommend for sealing the seams on the skins, during
construction and for minor leaks after?
I tried a marine caulking last summer but it did not adhere on some

spots.

I have the floats at home now and want to have them ready for ice out

in

a

couple of week, If the weather keeps up.
Thanks
Cecil
014R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

rails

come

airplane

instructions,

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[Del Schmucker]

Cecil

I used Sikaflex 291 (I think)they have a cleaner and primer available for
it.

Without using the primer the adhesion is pretty good but when you use it
with the primer it will not come off. It is made for marine/boats/aluminum.

www.sikaindustry.com



Thank You,

Del Schmucker
Information Systems Manager
Keewatin-Patricia District School Board
807-223-1254
807-221-8769 Cell
del.schmucker@kpdsb.on.ca
www.kpdsb.on.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
british thunder
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:01 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

Thanks Wayne
found a few loose rivets and a bent half bulkhead, will stiffen that, should
help.
Do you scuff the alum. first or just put it straight on?
is it good to put a bead over the seam or will it peal off? The last stuff
peeled off after under water for half the season, I didn't scuff it first.
hard to with all those rivets.
Looks like snow for tomorrow morning.
Thanks
Cecil
014R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

I use Sikaflex 1A for construction Cecil and currently well into a set of
1800's right now. It's hard to find sometimes and my colour of choice is
Limestone......but it's a concrete expansion joint sealant that just

happens

to have better peel strength on aluminum than it's intended concrete use.
Howard's stayed leak free for almost 8 seasons. They'd still be leak free

if

it wasn't for them big holes in the bottom! :O(

I get mine from United Equipment Rentals out on Hwy 90/Dunlop St in

Barrie,

Ontario. They rent heavy equipment, cement stuff etc. It's a chain to the
best of my knowledge, so should be some source near you. Be sure if you

are

going to use it that you have fresh air hood equipment. It contains
Isocynite and some other nasties. You won't last 6 hours in the shop

without

a hood...well you will...but you may not quite know where you are....and
your kidneys will not be amused!

Some also have good results with 3m 5200.

Or you can also go the Proseal/Sealpac route. My prebuilts were done with

it

by MAM and my hat's off to whom every built them. Never saw a tea spoon of
water this summer in them.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "british thunder" <britishthunder@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

What do you recommend for sealing the seams on the skins, during
construction and for minor leaks after?
I tried a marine caulking last summer but it did not adhere on some

spots.

I have the floats at home now and want to have them ready for ice out in

a

couple of week, If the weather keeps up.
Thanks
Cecil
014R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: 2200 amphibious floats

Yes, they are available finished (built with solid rivets). Being a
Scotsman, I had completely forgotten abou that option!

I checked their website, and here's the scoop:

Straight kit: $9K
Straight finished: $14
Amphib kit: $15.5
Amphib finished: $24.5

Options are: electric pump, $1K, rigging $2K, steps $400 and step

rails

$200. there's also a gear warning system whose price I didn't note
($1500?). All in US$, plus freight. I believe the finished ones come
painted white.

For 10 big ones, it's worth building them. Nothing like a full

airplane

project. You can knock them off in a few weeks. And the

instructions,

though not perfect, were much less of a mystery than Murphy's.

Al Hepburn





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[british thunder]

I just purchased a set of anphibs.
they only have 3 hours on them.
he had a rather hard landing both floats are straight but both front gear
has snapped off right at the first bolt.
While taking the gear apart to see what I need to order found the reason
they failed.
The 4 bolts that connect the front fork to the pivot were AN4-4 instead
of -7 the full load of the wheel was on the threaded portion 5 landings and
they sheared at the threads.
hard to believe a $.50 bolt can take down the whole craft.
not sure if it was he didn't know or was in a hurry to finish, or put them
in temporary until could get the right ones, then forgot?
It's good to have a to do list so you don't forget.
Has every on solved there problem with the gear leaking down?
Cec
014R





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