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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Hi All
I've just had a letter this morning from the PFA who control experimental
type aircraft in the UK. I've applied for permission from them to fit
MAM1800 amphib's to my Elite when it's finally finished, and to satisfy them
they are asking for more data (I've copied the relevant bits at the bottom).
It would be a great help if anyone with experience of operating 1800
amphib's on a Rebel or Elite could email me direct with the following and
I'll be about to put together the required field experience to hopefully
satisfy the powers that be.
Registration
Type (Rebel or Elite)
Max operating weight (no more than 1890 lbs required guy's :-) )
Hours aircraft has operated on floats
Years (or months) since fitting amphib's
A statement of No Structural problems to date for both floats and float
strut's (if applicable)
Many thanks for your help, and if you can let me have any contact details
for anyone not on the group I'll contact them direct.
Nigel
745E
Merry Olde England ;-)
admin@airnig.co.uk
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------
From PFA engineering, England.
Regarding the floats, then one option would be to attempt to clear them
based on satisfactory in-
service experience abroad, if there are a number of identical floats in
service. To do this, we will need
to obtain a set of drawings to review for any unusual or undesirable design
features. Then, we will
need a summary of in-service experience built up on identical floats used on
aircraft of the same
weight or higher, with the same landing speeds or higher, and with the same
wing loading or higher.
To clear the float struts by this method, we will also need an in-service
experience breakdown for the
high-weight Rebel on these floats.
Clearly the in-service experience needs to be validated in some way. One way
of doing this would be
to ask the manufacturer to give:
I've just had a letter this morning from the PFA who control experimental
type aircraft in the UK. I've applied for permission from them to fit
MAM1800 amphib's to my Elite when it's finally finished, and to satisfy them
they are asking for more data (I've copied the relevant bits at the bottom).
It would be a great help if anyone with experience of operating 1800
amphib's on a Rebel or Elite could email me direct with the following and
I'll be about to put together the required field experience to hopefully
satisfy the powers that be.
Registration
Type (Rebel or Elite)
Max operating weight (no more than 1890 lbs required guy's :-) )
Hours aircraft has operated on floats
Years (or months) since fitting amphib's
A statement of No Structural problems to date for both floats and float
strut's (if applicable)
Many thanks for your help, and if you can let me have any contact details
for anyone not on the group I'll contact them direct.
Nigel
745E
Merry Olde England ;-)
admin@airnig.co.uk
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------
From PFA engineering, England.
Regarding the floats, then one option would be to attempt to clear them
based on satisfactory in-
service experience abroad, if there are a number of identical floats in
service. To do this, we will need
to obtain a set of drawings to review for any unusual or undesirable design
features. Then, we will
need a summary of in-service experience built up on identical floats used on
aircraft of the same
weight or higher, with the same landing speeds or higher, and with the same
wing loading or higher.
To clear the float struts by this method, we will also need an in-service
experience breakdown for the
high-weight Rebel on these floats.
Clearly the in-service experience needs to be validated in some way. One way
of doing this would be
to ask the manufacturer to give:
Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Garry Wright should be able to dig some good numbers out for you Nig (sorry
to volunteer you Garry!) as FOKM has been on amphibs for many years. I'll
get Howard's number for you and the fact that even though his floats are
crumpled toast and his fuselage suffered some pretty good damage....
surprisingly the small steamline vertical material/or associated mounting
fittings that MAM uses did not suffer any damage what so ever and as matter
of fact it will be used in it's entiretly for his new float installation in
the spring. The only thing I am replacing is the x wires to be 100% sure.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
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to volunteer you Garry!) as FOKM has been on amphibs for many years. I'll
get Howard's number for you and the fact that even though his floats are
crumpled toast and his fuselage suffered some pretty good damage....
surprisingly the small steamline vertical material/or associated mounting
fittings that MAM uses did not suffer any damage what so ever and as matter
of fact it will be used in it's entiretly for his new float installation in
the spring. The only thing I am replacing is the x wires to be 100% sure.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
themHi All
I've just had a letter this morning from the PFA who control experimental
type aircraft in the UK. I've applied for permission from them to fit
MAM1800 amphib's to my Elite when it's finally finished, and to satisfy
bottom).they are asking for more data (I've copied the relevant bits at the
--It would be a great help if anyone with experience of operating 1800
amphib's on a Rebel or Elite could email me direct with the following and
I'll be about to put together the required field experience to hopefully
satisfy the powers that be.
Registration
Type (Rebel or Elite)
Max operating weight (no more than 1890 lbs required guy's :-) )
Hours aircraft has operated on floats
Years (or months) since fitting amphib's
A statement of No Structural problems to date for both floats and float
strut's (if applicable)
Many thanks for your help, and if you can let me have any contact details
for anyone not on the group I'll contact them direct.
Nigel
745E
Merry Olde England ;-)
admin@airnig.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
design------------------------
From PFA engineering, England.
Regarding the floats, then one option would be to attempt to clear them
based on satisfactory in-
service experience abroad, if there are a number of identical floats in
service. To do this, we will need
to obtain a set of drawings to review for any unusual or undesirable
onfeatures. Then, we will
need a summary of in-service experience built up on identical floats used
sameaircraft of the same
weight or higher, with the same landing speeds or higher, and with the
waywing loading or higher.
To clear the float struts by this method, we will also need an in-service
experience breakdown for the
high-weight Rebel on these floats.
Clearly the in-service experience needs to be validated in some way. One
of doing this would be
to ask the manufacturer to give:
. A summary of the number of float sets in service on aircraft types
stipulated above.
. A summary of the hours flown and types of operation flown on high-time
examples known to the
designer, while operating on these floats.
. A list of other customers who you could mailshot to ask them the hours
flown on their examples
while on floats.
The target values to aim for are:
. A fleet size of 25 aircraft (we are prepared to negotiate on this point
depending on the hours built
up on the fleet).
. Total fleet hours while on these floats to exceed 2500 hours.
. With at least one example having achieved in excess of 300 hours of
operation.
. No accidents attributable to design defects.
The alternative would be to ask for stress analysis or load testing data
with loads derived from a suitable design code such as FAR 23.
I am not sure whether you are in contact with Murphy Aircraft, but if you
are, perhaps you could ask them if a stress analysis for the Elite is
available so that we can work towards the higher gross weight value? It
seems a shame to limit the aircraft to 1650 lb.
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Hi Nigel,
My aircraft is N97MR a Rebel. 0-320 powered.
It has been on the floats since August of 2001
Max operating weight is 1890 lbs.
I now have over 200 hrs on the aircraft on floats with no signs of stress
or deformation in any of the attaching areas or in the attach points.
I believe that I well exceed the normal average of number of water
landings per hour as a normal 1 hr flight consists of 9 water landings and 1
asphalt. I have landed and taken off in winds exceeding 20kts, frequently near gross
weight.
It has been used and has performed beyond my expectations in a wide
variety of conditions with no signs of structural weakness.
Cheerfully submitted,
Curtis Martin
2245 Wiggen Ln
White Lake, Michigan,
48386 USA
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My aircraft is N97MR a Rebel. 0-320 powered.
It has been on the floats since August of 2001
Max operating weight is 1890 lbs.
I now have over 200 hrs on the aircraft on floats with no signs of stress
or deformation in any of the attaching areas or in the attach points.
I believe that I well exceed the normal average of number of water
landings per hour as a normal 1 hr flight consists of 9 water landings and 1
asphalt. I have landed and taken off in winds exceeding 20kts, frequently near gross
weight.
It has been used and has performed beyond my expectations in a wide
variety of conditions with no signs of structural weakness.
Cheerfully submitted,
Curtis Martin
2245 Wiggen Ln
White Lake, Michigan,
48386 USA
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
HI Nigel,
I thought I'd post this separately.
First off I want to reinforce the number of landings. That is no
exaggeration. I do have Wayne's recommended firewall braces. I also have Angus' STOL
kit with the Fife tips. I guess the only stretch is the weight. I'm 1104 empty
so that's 1404 full of fuel. I'm 210lbs. So are most of my friends. + or -
30 lbs. Then the baggage I've never weighed. It still performs wonderfully!
All attach points are the same as the day I installed them. The one thing I'd
do differently is I found an insert that goes inside the thimble to prevent
any elongation. I did have to tighten the cables a couple of times in the
beginning, but I made no adjustments to them this year. Good luck, and floats are
a blast!!!
Curt
N97MR
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I thought I'd post this separately.
First off I want to reinforce the number of landings. That is no
exaggeration. I do have Wayne's recommended firewall braces. I also have Angus' STOL
kit with the Fife tips. I guess the only stretch is the weight. I'm 1104 empty
so that's 1404 full of fuel. I'm 210lbs. So are most of my friends. + or -
30 lbs. Then the baggage I've never weighed. It still performs wonderfully!
All attach points are the same as the day I installed them. The one thing I'd
do differently is I found an insert that goes inside the thimble to prevent
any elongation. I did have to tighten the cables a couple of times in the
beginning, but I made no adjustments to them this year. Good luck, and floats are
a blast!!!
Curt
N97MR
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Nigel,
If your powers that be are most concerned about the struts, attach
points and x-wires, I'm your guy. I did a little destructive testing on
FOKM's floats this summer with a bad glassy water landing. Both aircraft
and floats suffered damage but none to the attach rigging except for a
bit of stretch to the front x-wire caused by slight flattening of the
thimble under significant stress.
The aircraft landed hard on the right float, pitched forward and the
left float tip dug in. The aircraft snapped 90 degrees left and skidded
to a halt upright within a few meters. All this from 70 mph. The floor
pan forward of the front attach points buckled, as did 3 of the corner
wraps and one side panel(right).
This set of floats was originally a pair of Murphy 1500's but Wayne
stretched them to 1800's. There is little to distinguish them from
standard 1800's except Wayne made the extension section with a lid for
storage. They were first put on FOKM when the plane was equipped with an
O-200 and stretched in 2001 with the change to an O-320.
1500's were originally installed in July 96 at 190 hours on the
airframe. It was land based and while on 1500's did only 135.8 hours
flying time, not much on the water. The 1800's were re-installed at
349.7 hours. Accident occurred at 405.8 hours so there are 56.1 hours
of flying on these extended floats. The amount of water work actually
experienced by the aircraft is relatively small.
If you need more clarification just give me a whistle. Cheers
On Fri, 2005-25-11 at 14:11 -0500, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
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If your powers that be are most concerned about the struts, attach
points and x-wires, I'm your guy. I did a little destructive testing on
FOKM's floats this summer with a bad glassy water landing. Both aircraft
and floats suffered damage but none to the attach rigging except for a
bit of stretch to the front x-wire caused by slight flattening of the
thimble under significant stress.
The aircraft landed hard on the right float, pitched forward and the
left float tip dug in. The aircraft snapped 90 degrees left and skidded
to a halt upright within a few meters. All this from 70 mph. The floor
pan forward of the front attach points buckled, as did 3 of the corner
wraps and one side panel(right).
This set of floats was originally a pair of Murphy 1500's but Wayne
stretched them to 1800's. There is little to distinguish them from
standard 1800's except Wayne made the extension section with a lid for
storage. They were first put on FOKM when the plane was equipped with an
O-200 and stretched in 2001 with the change to an O-320.
1500's were originally installed in July 96 at 190 hours on the
airframe. It was land based and while on 1500's did only 135.8 hours
flying time, not much on the water. The 1800's were re-installed at
349.7 hours. Accident occurred at 405.8 hours so there are 56.1 hours
of flying on these extended floats. The amount of water work actually
experienced by the aircraft is relatively small.
If you need more clarification just give me a whistle. Cheers
On Fri, 2005-25-11 at 14:11 -0500, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
Garry Wright should be able to dig some good numbers out for you Nig (sorry
to volunteer you Garry!) as FOKM has been on amphibs for many years. I'll
get Howard's number for you and the fact that even though his floats are
crumpled toast and his fuselage suffered some pretty good damage....
surprisingly the small steamline vertical material/or associated mounting
fittings that MAM uses did not suffer any damage what so ever and as matter
of fact it will be used in it's entiretly for his new float installation in
the spring. The only thing I am replacing is the x wires to be 100% sure.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
themHi All
I've just had a letter this morning from the PFA who control experimental
type aircraft in the UK. I've applied for permission from them to fit
MAM1800 amphib's to my Elite when it's finally finished, and to satisfybottom).they are asking for more data (I've copied the relevant bits at the--It would be a great help if anyone with experience of operating 1800
amphib's on a Rebel or Elite could email me direct with the following and
I'll be about to put together the required field experience to hopefully
satisfy the powers that be.
Registration
Type (Rebel or Elite)
Max operating weight (no more than 1890 lbs required guy's :-) )
Hours aircraft has operated on floats
Years (or months) since fitting amphib's
A statement of No Structural problems to date for both floats and float
strut's (if applicable)
Many thanks for your help, and if you can let me have any contact details
for anyone not on the group I'll contact them direct.
Nigel
745E
Merry Olde England ;-)
admin@airnig.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------design------------------------
From PFA engineering, England.
Regarding the floats, then one option would be to attempt to clear them
based on satisfactory in-
service experience abroad, if there are a number of identical floats in
service. To do this, we will need
to obtain a set of drawings to review for any unusual or undesirableonfeatures. Then, we will
need a summary of in-service experience built up on identical floats usedsameaircraft of the same
weight or higher, with the same landing speeds or higher, and with thewaywing loading or higher.
To clear the float struts by this method, we will also need an in-service
experience breakdown for the
high-weight Rebel on these floats.
Clearly the in-service experience needs to be validated in some way. Oneof doing this would be
to ask the manufacturer to give:
. A summary of the number of float sets in service on aircraft types
stipulated above.
. A summary of the hours flown and types of operation flown on high-time
examples known to the
designer, while operating on these floats.
. A list of other customers who you could mailshot to ask them the hours
flown on their examples
while on floats.
The target values to aim for are:
. A fleet size of 25 aircraft (we are prepared to negotiate on this point
depending on the hours built
up on the fleet).
. Total fleet hours while on these floats to exceed 2500 hours.
. With at least one example having achieved in excess of 300 hours of
operation.
. No accidents attributable to design defects.
The alternative would be to ask for stress analysis or load testing data
with loads derived from a suitable design code such as FAR 23.
I am not sure whether you are in contact with Murphy Aircraft, but if you
are, perhaps you could ask them if a stress analysis for the Elite is
available so that we can work towards the higher gross weight value? It
seems a shame to limit the aircraft to 1650 lb.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
"It seems a shame to limit the aircraft to 1650 lb."
Second on that, and is that from an enginner?
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Second on that, and is that from an enginner?
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Yes Ray
Deputy Chief Engineer of the UK PFA
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
ray.mason@dcsol.com
Sent: 26 November 2005 04:55
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
"It seems a shame to limit the aircraft to 1650 lb."
Second on that, and is that from an enginner?
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Deputy Chief Engineer of the UK PFA
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
ray.mason@dcsol.com
Sent: 26 November 2005 04:55
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
"It seems a shame to limit the aircraft to 1650 lb."
Second on that, and is that from an enginner?
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Nigel:
If you haven't bought the floats already, you might like to consider the
Montana 2200s, which have a displacement of 2,200 lbs, and have been drop
tested as part of a certification program at the 2,200 lbs gross. I was
able to get my gross on the Elite up to 2,200 lbs with Transport Canada,
theough you Brits probably don't think much of what goes on in the colonies!
If you can't get an increased gross, forget it, as my airplane came out at
1,430 lbs empty and unpainted. According to Canadian rules (which require
you to compute a minimum takeoff weight based on claimed number of
passengers, plus enough fuel to get you further than just round the circuit,
with a factory gross of 1,890 lbs, that left me about 25 lbs left to paint
the thing! Even with 1800s, which weigh about 100 lbs less than the
Montanas, the legal margins must be very slim, and they're apparently
marginal on buoyancy for the Elite.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
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If you haven't bought the floats already, you might like to consider the
Montana 2200s, which have a displacement of 2,200 lbs, and have been drop
tested as part of a certification program at the 2,200 lbs gross. I was
able to get my gross on the Elite up to 2,200 lbs with Transport Canada,
theough you Brits probably don't think much of what goes on in the colonies!
If you can't get an increased gross, forget it, as my airplane came out at
1,430 lbs empty and unpainted. According to Canadian rules (which require
you to compute a minimum takeoff weight based on claimed number of
passengers, plus enough fuel to get you further than just round the circuit,
with a factory gross of 1,890 lbs, that left me about 25 lbs left to paint
the thing! Even with 1800s, which weigh about 100 lbs less than the
Montanas, the legal margins must be very slim, and they're apparently
marginal on buoyancy for the Elite.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
themHi All
I've just had a letter this morning from the PFA who control experimental
type aircraft in the UK. I've applied for permission from them to fit
MAM1800 amphib's to my Elite when it's finally finished, and to satisfy
bottom).they are asking for more data (I've copied the relevant bits at the
--It would be a great help if anyone with experience of operating 1800
amphib's on a Rebel or Elite could email me direct with the following and
I'll be about to put together the required field experience to hopefully
satisfy the powers that be.
Registration
Type (Rebel or Elite)
Max operating weight (no more than 1890 lbs required guy's :-) )
Hours aircraft has operated on floats
Years (or months) since fitting amphib's
A statement of No Structural problems to date for both floats and float
strut's (if applicable)
Many thanks for your help, and if you can let me have any contact details
for anyone not on the group I'll contact them direct.
Nigel
745E
Merry Olde England ;-)
admin@airnig.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
design------------------------
Regarding the floats, then one option would be to attempt to clear themFrom PFA engineering, England.
based on satisfactory in-
service experience abroad, if there are a number of identical floats in
service. To do this, we will need
to obtain a set of drawings to review for any unusual or undesirable
onfeatures. Then, we will
need a summary of in-service experience built up on identical floats used
sameaircraft of the same
weight or higher, with the same landing speeds or higher, and with the
waywing loading or higher.
To clear the float struts by this method, we will also need an in-service
experience breakdown for the
high-weight Rebel on these floats.
Clearly the in-service experience needs to be validated in some way. One
of doing this would be
to ask the manufacturer to give:
. A summary of the number of float sets in service on aircraft types
stipulated above.
. A summary of the hours flown and types of operation flown on high-time
examples known to the
designer, while operating on these floats.
. A list of other customers who you could mailshot to ask them the hours
flown on their examples
while on floats.
The target values to aim for are:
. A fleet size of 25 aircraft (we are prepared to negotiate on this point
depending on the hours built
up on the fleet).
. Total fleet hours while on these floats to exceed 2500 hours.
. With at least one example having achieved in excess of 300 hours of
operation.
. No accidents attributable to design defects.
The alternative would be to ask for stress analysis or load testing data
with loads derived from a suitable design code such as FAR 23.
I am not sure whether you are in contact with Murphy Aircraft, but if you
are, perhaps you could ask them if a stress analysis for the Elite is
available so that we can work towards the higher gross weight value? It
seems a shame to limit the aircraft to 1650 lb.
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Al,
Those numbers give you a 770 lbs. useful load. My Rebel on 1800 amphibs with a 0320 came in less than 1200 lbs. empty. This gives me a legal load of around 550 lbs. Does the Elite have the same "factory" rated gross weight of 1733 lbs as the Rebel on amphibs? Although the Elite and Rebel may be good for 2200 lbs. gross ( I've never flown my Rebel that heavy, but I understand some have) that extra 230 plus lbs. has to hurt performance, even with the extra 20/30 HP of an 0360.
In the US, we are not allowed to change the gross weight the factory imposes on the airplane, at least not without a lot of documentation to support it. I know the two FAA examiners that inspected my 2 kits would not have issued me a flight certificate otherwise.
Bruce
---Original Message-----
From: Alan Hepburn <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Sent: Nov 26, 2005 11:37 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Nigel:
If you haven't bought the floats already, you might like to consider the
Montana 2200s, which have a displacement of 2,200 lbs, and have been drop
tested as part of a certification program at the 2,200 lbs gross. I was
able to get my gross on the Elite up to 2,200 lbs with Transport Canada,
theough you Brits probably don't think much of what goes on in the colonies!
If you can't get an increased gross, forget it, as my airplane came out at
1,430 lbs empty and unpainted. According to Canadian rules (which require
you to compute a minimum takeoff weight based on claimed number of
passengers, plus enough fuel to get you further than just round the circuit,
with a factory gross of 1,890 lbs, that left me about 25 lbs left to paint
the thing! Even with 1800s, which weigh about 100 lbs less than the
Montanas, the legal margins must be very slim, and they're apparently
marginal on buoyancy for the Elite.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
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Those numbers give you a 770 lbs. useful load. My Rebel on 1800 amphibs with a 0320 came in less than 1200 lbs. empty. This gives me a legal load of around 550 lbs. Does the Elite have the same "factory" rated gross weight of 1733 lbs as the Rebel on amphibs? Although the Elite and Rebel may be good for 2200 lbs. gross ( I've never flown my Rebel that heavy, but I understand some have) that extra 230 plus lbs. has to hurt performance, even with the extra 20/30 HP of an 0360.
In the US, we are not allowed to change the gross weight the factory imposes on the airplane, at least not without a lot of documentation to support it. I know the two FAA examiners that inspected my 2 kits would not have issued me a flight certificate otherwise.
Bruce
---Original Message-----
From: Alan Hepburn <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Sent: Nov 26, 2005 11:37 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Nigel:
If you haven't bought the floats already, you might like to consider the
Montana 2200s, which have a displacement of 2,200 lbs, and have been drop
tested as part of a certification program at the 2,200 lbs gross. I was
able to get my gross on the Elite up to 2,200 lbs with Transport Canada,
theough you Brits probably don't think much of what goes on in the colonies!
If you can't get an increased gross, forget it, as my airplane came out at
1,430 lbs empty and unpainted. According to Canadian rules (which require
you to compute a minimum takeoff weight based on claimed number of
passengers, plus enough fuel to get you further than just round the circuit,
with a factory gross of 1,890 lbs, that left me about 25 lbs left to paint
the thing! Even with 1800s, which weigh about 100 lbs less than the
Montanas, the legal margins must be very slim, and they're apparently
marginal on buoyancy for the Elite.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
themHi All
I've just had a letter this morning from the PFA who control experimental
type aircraft in the UK. I've applied for permission from them to fit
MAM1800 amphib's to my Elite when it's finally finished, and to satisfy
bottom).they are asking for more data (I've copied the relevant bits at the
--It would be a great help if anyone with experience of operating 1800
amphib's on a Rebel or Elite could email me direct with the following and
I'll be about to put together the required field experience to hopefully
satisfy the powers that be.
Registration
Type (Rebel or Elite)
Max operating weight (no more than 1890 lbs required guy's :-) )
Hours aircraft has operated on floats
Years (or months) since fitting amphib's
A statement of No Structural problems to date for both floats and float
strut's (if applicable)
Many thanks for your help, and if you can let me have any contact details
for anyone not on the group I'll contact them direct.
Nigel
745E
Merry Olde England ;-)
admin@airnig.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
design------------------------
Regarding the floats, then one option would be to attempt to clear themFrom PFA engineering, England.
based on satisfactory in-
service experience abroad, if there are a number of identical floats in
service. To do this, we will need
to obtain a set of drawings to review for any unusual or undesirable
onfeatures. Then, we will
need a summary of in-service experience built up on identical floats used
sameaircraft of the same
weight or higher, with the same landing speeds or higher, and with the
waywing loading or higher.
To clear the float struts by this method, we will also need an in-service
experience breakdown for the
high-weight Rebel on these floats.
Clearly the in-service experience needs to be validated in some way. One
of doing this would be
to ask the manufacturer to give:
. A summary of the number of float sets in service on aircraft types
stipulated above.
. A summary of the hours flown and types of operation flown on high-time
examples known to the
designer, while operating on these floats.
. A list of other customers who you could mailshot to ask them the hours
flown on their examples
while on floats.
The target values to aim for are:
. A fleet size of 25 aircraft (we are prepared to negotiate on this point
depending on the hours built
up on the fleet).
. Total fleet hours while on these floats to exceed 2500 hours.
. With at least one example having achieved in excess of 300 hours of
operation.
. No accidents attributable to design defects.
The alternative would be to ask for stress analysis or load testing data
with loads derived from a suitable design code such as FAR 23.
I am not sure whether you are in contact with Murphy Aircraft, but if you
are, perhaps you could ask them if a stress analysis for the Elite is
available so that we can work towards the higher gross weight value? It
seems a shame to limit the aircraft to 1650 lb.
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Don't know about your examiner's Bruce, but in the US when applying for your
special airworthiness certificate, you can put any gross weight on the
aircraft you want. You are the manufacturer, not Murphy Aircraft. There is
nothing in the FAA regulations that indicate that you must supply the gross
weight numbers that the kit designer came up with.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
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special airworthiness certificate, you can put any gross weight on the
aircraft you want. You are the manufacturer, not Murphy Aircraft. There is
nothing in the FAA regulations that indicate that you must supply the gross
weight numbers that the kit designer came up with.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Al,
Those numbers give you a 770 lbs. useful load. My Rebel on 1800 amphibs
with a 0320 came in less than 1200 lbs. empty. This gives me a legal load
of around 550 lbs. Does the Elite have the same "factory" rated gross
weight of 1733 lbs as the Rebel on amphibs? Although the Elite and Rebel
may be good for 2200 lbs. gross ( I've never flown my Rebel that heavy,
but I understand some have) that extra 230 plus lbs. has to hurt
performance, even with the extra 20/30 HP of an 0360.
In the US, we are not allowed to change the gross weight the factory
imposes on the airplane, at least not without a lot of documentation to
support it. I know the two FAA examiners that inspected my 2 kits would
not have issued me a flight certificate otherwise.
Bruce
---Original Message-----
From: Alan Hepburn <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Sent: Nov 26, 2005 11:37 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Nigel:
If you haven't bought the floats already, you might like to consider the
Montana 2200s, which have a displacement of 2,200 lbs, and have been drop
tested as part of a certification program at the 2,200 lbs gross. I was
able to get my gross on the Elite up to 2,200 lbs with Transport Canada,
theough you Brits probably don't think much of what goes on in the
colonies!
If you can't get an increased gross, forget it, as my airplane came out at
1,430 lbs empty and unpainted. According to Canadian rules (which require
you to compute a minimum takeoff weight based on claimed number of
passengers, plus enough fuel to get you further than just round the
circuit,
with a factory gross of 1,890 lbs, that left me about 25 lbs left to paint
the thing! Even with 1800s, which weigh about 100 lbs less than the
Montanas, the legal margins must be very slim, and they're apparently
marginal on buoyancy for the Elite.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
themHi All
I've just had a letter this morning from the PFA who control experimental
type aircraft in the UK. I've applied for permission from them to fit
MAM1800 amphib's to my Elite when it's finally finished, and to satisfybottom).they are asking for more data (I've copied the relevant bits at the--It would be a great help if anyone with experience of operating 1800
amphib's on a Rebel or Elite could email me direct with the following and
I'll be about to put together the required field experience to hopefully
satisfy the powers that be.
Registration
Type (Rebel or Elite)
Max operating weight (no more than 1890 lbs required guy's :-) )
Hours aircraft has operated on floats
Years (or months) since fitting amphib's
A statement of No Structural problems to date for both floats and float
strut's (if applicable)
Many thanks for your help, and if you can let me have any contact details
for anyone not on the group I'll contact them direct.
Nigel
745E
Merry Olde England ;-)
admin@airnig.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------design------------------------
Regarding the floats, then one option would be to attempt to clear themFrom PFA engineering, England.
based on satisfactory in-
service experience abroad, if there are a number of identical floats in
service. To do this, we will need
to obtain a set of drawings to review for any unusual or undesirableonfeatures. Then, we will
need a summary of in-service experience built up on identical floats usedsameaircraft of the same
weight or higher, with the same landing speeds or higher, and with thewaywing loading or higher.
To clear the float struts by this method, we will also need an in-service
experience breakdown for the
high-weight Rebel on these floats.
Clearly the in-service experience needs to be validated in some way. Oneof doing this would be
to ask the manufacturer to give:
. A summary of the number of float sets in service on aircraft types
stipulated above.
. A summary of the hours flown and types of operation flown on high-time
examples known to the
designer, while operating on these floats.
. A list of other customers who you could mailshot to ask them the hours
flown on their examples
while on floats.
The target values to aim for are:
. A fleet size of 25 aircraft (we are prepared to negotiate on this point
depending on the hours built
up on the fleet).
. Total fleet hours while on these floats to exceed 2500 hours.
. With at least one example having achieved in excess of 300 hours of
operation.
. No accidents attributable to design defects.
The alternative would be to ask for stress analysis or load testing data
with loads derived from a suitable design code such as FAR 23.
I am not sure whether you are in contact with Murphy Aircraft, but if you
are, perhaps you could ask them if a stress analysis for the Elite is
available so that we can work towards the higher gross weight value? It
seems a shame to limit the aircraft to 1650 lb.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
The factory gross for the Elite is 1890# (1800 plus 5% for floats, per Email
from the factory). Of course, at 2,200 the performance is down. I have
only done one water takeoff at that weight, and we were off in about 35
seconds in a moderate wind on a 28C day, so it's still quite usable. An
remember, that was with two up, 59 gallons of fuel, and 30 lbs of baggage,
so a very useful load. The climb test at this weight still showed 500 fpm,
also at 28C.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
around 550 lbs. Does the Elite have the same "factory" rated gross weight of
1733 lbs as the Rebel on amphibs? Although the Elite and Rebel may be good
for 2200 lbs. gross ( I've never flown my Rebel that heavy, but I understand
some have) that extra 230 plus lbs. has to hurt performance, even with the
extra 20/30 HP of an 0360.
support it. I know the two FAA examiners that inspected my 2 kits would not
have issued me a flight certificate otherwise.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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from the factory). Of course, at 2,200 the performance is down. I have
only done one water takeoff at that weight, and we were off in about 35
seconds in a moderate wind on a 28C day, so it's still quite usable. An
remember, that was with two up, 59 gallons of fuel, and 30 lbs of baggage,
so a very useful load. The climb test at this weight still showed 500 fpm,
also at 28C.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
with a 0320 came in less than 1200 lbs. empty. This gives me a legal load of
Al,
Those numbers give you a 770 lbs. useful load. My Rebel on 1800 amphibs
around 550 lbs. Does the Elite have the same "factory" rated gross weight of
1733 lbs as the Rebel on amphibs? Although the Elite and Rebel may be good
for 2200 lbs. gross ( I've never flown my Rebel that heavy, but I understand
some have) that extra 230 plus lbs. has to hurt performance, even with the
extra 20/30 HP of an 0360.
imposes on the airplane, at least not without a lot of documentation toIn the US, we are not allowed to change the gross weight the factory
support it. I know the two FAA examiners that inspected my 2 kits would not
have issued me a flight certificate otherwise.
colonies!Bruce
---Original Message-----
From: Alan Hepburn <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Sent: Nov 26, 2005 11:37 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Nigel:
If you haven't bought the floats already, you might like to consider the
Montana 2200s, which have a displacement of 2,200 lbs, and have been drop
tested as part of a certification program at the 2,200 lbs gross. I was
able to get my gross on the Elite up to 2,200 lbs with Transport Canada,
theough you Brits probably don't think much of what goes on in the
circuit,If you can't get an increased gross, forget it, as my airplane came out at
1,430 lbs empty and unpainted. According to Canadian rules (which require
you to compute a minimum takeoff weight based on claimed number of
passengers, plus enough fuel to get you further than just round the
experimentalwith a factory gross of 1,890 lbs, that left me about 25 lbs left to paint
the thing! Even with 1800s, which weigh about 100 lbs less than the
Montanas, the legal margins must be very slim, and they're apparently
marginal on buoyancy for the Elite.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Hi All
I've just had a letter this morning from the PFA who control
andthemtype aircraft in the UK. I've applied for permission from them to fit
MAM1800 amphib's to my Elite when it's finally finished, and to satisfybottom).they are asking for more data (I've copied the relevant bits at theIt would be a great help if anyone with experience of operating 1800
amphib's on a Rebel or Elite could email me direct with the following
detailsI'll be about to put together the required field experience to hopefully
satisfy the powers that be.
Registration
Type (Rebel or Elite)
Max operating weight (no more than 1890 lbs required guy's :-) )
Hours aircraft has operated on floats
Years (or months) since fitting amphib's
A statement of No Structural problems to date for both floats and float
strut's (if applicable)
Many thanks for your help, and if you can let me have any contact
used--------------------------------------------------------------------------for anyone not on the group I'll contact them direct.
Nigel
745E
Merry Olde England ;-)
admin@airnig.co.uk
--design------------------------
Regarding the floats, then one option would be to attempt to clear themFrom PFA engineering, England.
based on satisfactory in-
service experience abroad, if there are a number of identical floats in
service. To do this, we will need
to obtain a set of drawings to review for any unusual or undesirablefeatures. Then, we will
need a summary of in-service experience built up on identical floats
in-serviceonsameaircraft of the same
weight or higher, with the same landing speeds or higher, and with thewing loading or higher.
To clear the float struts by this method, we will also need an
pointwayexperience breakdown for the
high-weight Rebel on these floats.
Clearly the in-service experience needs to be validated in some way. Oneof doing this would be
to ask the manufacturer to give:
. A summary of the number of float sets in service on aircraft types
stipulated above.
. A summary of the hours flown and types of operation flown on high-time
examples known to the
designer, while operating on these floats.
. A list of other customers who you could mailshot to ask them the hours
flown on their examples
while on floats.
The target values to aim for are:
. A fleet size of 25 aircraft (we are prepared to negotiate on this
youdepending on the hours built
up on the fleet).
. Total fleet hours while on these floats to exceed 2500 hours.
. With at least one example having achieved in excess of 300 hours of
operation.
. No accidents attributable to design defects.
The alternative would be to ask for stress analysis or load testing data
with loads derived from a suitable design code such as FAR 23.
I am not sure whether you are in contact with Murphy Aircraft, but if
are, perhaps you could ask them if a stress analysis for the Elite is
available so that we can work towards the higher gross weight value? It
seems a shame to limit the aircraft to 1650 lb.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
In Canada, there is a formula for determining the max gross, which has wing
area, flap area, power etc. as inputs. Of course, there is also the issue
of g loading, but on floats I do not believe this is a concern, as the
airplane flies so much slower. Let's say it's 25% slower. That makes the
peak gust loading 50% less, so the stress on a floatplane when hitting a
gust will actually be less than for the same landplane at factory gross.
Transport Canada also wanted to know that the gear could take it.
Fortunately, the Montana floats have been drop tested at 2,200 lbs. I don't
know if an equivalent number exists for the Murphy 1800s, so that might be a
problem. Anyway, I think the lack of buoyancy would really start to take a
toll with the smaller displacement.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:44 AM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
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-----------------------------------------------------------------
area, flap area, power etc. as inputs. Of course, there is also the issue
of g loading, but on floats I do not believe this is a concern, as the
airplane flies so much slower. Let's say it's 25% slower. That makes the
peak gust loading 50% less, so the stress on a floatplane when hitting a
gust will actually be less than for the same landplane at factory gross.
Transport Canada also wanted to know that the gear could take it.
Fortunately, the Montana floats have been drop tested at 2,200 lbs. I don't
know if an equivalent number exists for the Murphy 1800s, so that might be a
problem. Anyway, I think the lack of buoyancy would really start to take a
toll with the smaller displacement.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:44 AM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
yourDon't know about your examiner's Bruce, but in the US when applying for
isspecial airworthiness certificate, you can put any gross weight on the
aircraft you want. You are the manufacturer, not Murphy Aircraft. There
grossnothing in the FAA regulations that indicate that you must supply the
loadweight numbers that the kit designer came up with.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Al,
Those numbers give you a 770 lbs. useful load. My Rebel on 1800 amphibs
with a 0320 came in less than 1200 lbs. empty. This gives me a legal
dropof around 550 lbs. Does the Elite have the same "factory" rated gross
weight of 1733 lbs as the Rebel on amphibs? Although the Elite and Rebel
may be good for 2200 lbs. gross ( I've never flown my Rebel that heavy,
but I understand some have) that extra 230 plus lbs. has to hurt
performance, even with the extra 20/30 HP of an 0360.
In the US, we are not allowed to change the gross weight the factory
imposes on the airplane, at least not without a lot of documentation to
support it. I know the two FAA examiners that inspected my 2 kits would
not have issued me a flight certificate otherwise.
Bruce
---Original Message-----
From: Alan Hepburn <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Sent: Nov 26, 2005 11:37 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Nigel:
If you haven't bought the floats already, you might like to consider the
Montana 2200s, which have a displacement of 2,200 lbs, and have been
attested as part of a certification program at the 2,200 lbs gross. I was
able to get my gross on the Elite up to 2,200 lbs with Transport Canada,
theough you Brits probably don't think much of what goes on in the
colonies!
If you can't get an increased gross, forget it, as my airplane came out
require1,430 lbs empty and unpainted. According to Canadian rules (which
paintyou to compute a minimum takeoff weight based on claimed number of
passengers, plus enough fuel to get you further than just round the
circuit,
with a factory gross of 1,890 lbs, that left me about 25 lbs left to
experimentalthe thing! Even with 1800s, which weigh about 100 lbs less than the
Montanas, the legal margins must be very slim, and they're apparently
marginal on buoyancy for the Elite.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Hi All
I've just had a letter this morning from the PFA who control
andthemtype aircraft in the UK. I've applied for permission from them to fit
MAM1800 amphib's to my Elite when it's finally finished, and to satisfybottom).they are asking for more data (I've copied the relevant bits at theIt would be a great help if anyone with experience of operating 1800
amphib's on a Rebel or Elite could email me direct with the following
hopefullyI'll be about to put together the required field experience to
detailssatisfy the powers that be.
Registration
Type (Rebel or Elite)
Max operating weight (no more than 1890 lbs required guy's :-) )
Hours aircraft has operated on floats
Years (or months) since fitting amphib's
A statement of No Structural problems to date for both floats and float
strut's (if applicable)
Many thanks for your help, and if you can let me have any contact
-for anyone not on the group I'll contact them direct.
Nigel
745E
Merry Olde England ;-)
admin@airnig.co.uk
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
used--design------------------------
Regarding the floats, then one option would be to attempt to clear them
based on satisfactory in-
service experience abroad, if there are a number of identical floats in
service. To do this, we will need
to obtain a set of drawings to review for any unusual or undesirablefeatures. Then, we will
need a summary of in-service experience built up on identical floats
in-serviceonsameaircraft of the same
weight or higher, with the same landing speeds or higher, and with thewing loading or higher.
To clear the float struts by this method, we will also need an
Oneexperience breakdown for the
high-weight Rebel on these floats.
Clearly the in-service experience needs to be validated in some way.
high-timewayof doing this would be
to ask the manufacturer to give:
. A summary of the number of float sets in service on aircraft types
stipulated above.
. A summary of the hours flown and types of operation flown on
hoursexamples known to the
designer, while operating on these floats.
. A list of other customers who you could mailshot to ask them the
pointflown on their examples
while on floats.
The target values to aim for are:
. A fleet size of 25 aircraft (we are prepared to negotiate on this
datadepending on the hours built
up on the fleet).
. Total fleet hours while on these floats to exceed 2500 hours.
. With at least one example having achieved in excess of 300 hours of
operation.
. No accidents attributable to design defects.
The alternative would be to ask for stress analysis or load testing
youwith loads derived from a suitable design code such as FAR 23.
I am not sure whether you are in contact with Murphy Aircraft, but if
are, perhaps you could ask them if a stress analysis for the Elite is
available so that we can work towards the higher gross weight value? It
seems a shame to limit the aircraft to 1650 lb.
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Al, not sure what the toll is with lighter buoyancy. Is it harder
to get on the step or longer take-off runs? My Rebel is also
registered at 1900 pounds, and can tell you that is not a heavy
load for it. The only times when my Rebel has struggled on
take-off is at higher altitudes with a good load. At near sea
level I have yet to find any sort of limit. Weight certainly does
make a difference. I can take off solo in 10 seconds or less, but
that increases to over 20 seconds with a heavy load. Of course
glassy water lengthens a run, too. But 30 seconds would be a long
run for me (excluding high altitude lakes). Climb rate goes from
1100 fpm solo to 600 fpm with a heavy load (again at near sea
level).
The only time I don't like heavy loads is when I have to land in
rough water, and for that matter, light loads are not good
either. Not sure if more buoyancy would help with that. I think
that's where longer floats help.
As for the gear, it is stronger than it looks. So far no problems
with mine. Don't think I would want to drop it from too far, but
I just try to keep my landings gentle, which is pretty easy with
a little power.
Walter
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to get on the step or longer take-off runs? My Rebel is also
registered at 1900 pounds, and can tell you that is not a heavy
load for it. The only times when my Rebel has struggled on
take-off is at higher altitudes with a good load. At near sea
level I have yet to find any sort of limit. Weight certainly does
make a difference. I can take off solo in 10 seconds or less, but
that increases to over 20 seconds with a heavy load. Of course
glassy water lengthens a run, too. But 30 seconds would be a long
run for me (excluding high altitude lakes). Climb rate goes from
1100 fpm solo to 600 fpm with a heavy load (again at near sea
level).
The only time I don't like heavy loads is when I have to land in
rough water, and for that matter, light loads are not good
either. Not sure if more buoyancy would help with that. I think
that's where longer floats help.
As for the gear, it is stronger than it looks. So far no problems
with mine. Don't think I would want to drop it from too far, but
I just try to keep my landings gentle, which is pretty easy with
a little power.
Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Alan Hepburn
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:26 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
In Canada, there is a formula for determining the max
gross, which has wing
area, flap area, power etc. as inputs. Of course,
there is also the issue
of g loading, but on floats I do not believe this is a
concern, as the
airplane flies so much slower. Let's say it's 25%
slower. That makes the
peak gust loading 50% less, so the stress on a
floatplane when hitting a
gust will actually be less than for the same landplane
at factory gross.
Transport Canada also wanted to know that the gear
could take it.
Fortunately, the Montana floats have been drop tested
at 2,200 lbs. I don't
know if an equivalent number exists for the Murphy
1800s, so that might be a
problem. Anyway, I think the lack of buoyancy would
really start to take a
toll with the smaller displacement.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:44 AM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
US when applying forDon't know about your examiner's Bruce, but in the
yourgross weight on thespecial airworthiness certificate, you can put anyMurphy Aircraft. Thereaircraft you want. You are the manufacturer, not
isyou must supply thenothing in the FAA regulations that indicate that
grossRebel on 1800 amphibsweight numbers that the kit designer came up with.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Al,
Those numbers give you a 770 lbs. useful load. MyThis gives me a legalwith a 0320 came in less than 1200 lbs. empty.
load"factory" rated grossof around 550 lbs. Does the Elite have the sameAlthough the Elite and Rebelweight of 1733 lbs as the Rebel on amphibs?my Rebel that heavy,may be good for 2200 lbs. gross ( I've never flownlbs. has to hurtbut I understand some have) that extra 230 plusweight the factoryperformance, even with the extra 20/30 HP of an 0360.
In the US, we are not allowed to change the grosslot of documentation toimposes on the airplane, at least not without ainspected my 2 kits wouldsupport it. I know the two FAA examiners thatmight like to consider thenot have issued me a flight certificate otherwise.
Bruce
---Original Message-----
From: Alan Hepburn <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Sent: Nov 26, 2005 11:37 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Nigel:
If you haven't bought the floats already, youlbs, and have beenMontana 2200s, which have a displacement of 2,200
drop2,200 lbs gross. I wastested as part of a certification program at thewith Transport Canada,able to get my gross on the Elite up to 2,200 lbswhat goes on in thetheough you Brits probably don't think much ofmy airplane came outcolonies!
If you can't get an increased gross, forget it, as
atCanadian rules (which1,430 lbs empty and unpainted. According to
requireclaimed number ofyou to compute a minimum takeoff weight based onthan just round thepassengers, plus enough fuel to get you furtherabout 25 lbs left tocircuit,
with a factory gross of 1,890 lbs, that left me
paintlbs less than thethe thing! Even with 1800s, which weigh about 100they're apparentlyMontanas, the legal margins must be very slim, andwho controlmarginal on buoyancy for the Elite.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
experimentalpermission from them to fitfinished, and to satisfyrelevant bits at thethemexperience of operating 1800bottom).direct with the following
andexperience to
hopefullyrequired guy's :-) )both floats and floathave any contact
details-------------------------------------------------------
------------------
-attempt to clear them--of identical floats inunusual or undesirableon identical floatsdesign
usedhigher, and with theonalso need ansame
in-servicevalidated in some way.
Oneservice on aircraft typeswayoperation flown on
high-timemailshot to ask them the
hoursnegotiate on this
pointexceed 2500 hours.excess of 300 hours ofanalysis or load testing
datasuch as FAR 23.Murphy Aircraft, but if
youanalysis for the Elite isgross weight value? It-------------------------------------------------------
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Walter:
I was meaning that at 2,200 the 1800s might get a little bogged down. I'd
imagine they might be kind of sluggish getting onto the step. But of
course, your Rebel will probably carry as much load at 1900 as my Elite will
at maybe 2050. I seem to take about 12 seconds solo, and about 35 seconds
at the 2,200 gross, all on pretty hot days. It was like that this ummer in
Ontario.
On the drop testing at 2200 lbs for the Montanas, Transport simply said that
they had not approved a Murphy on Montanas before, and had no "installation
information" on them. I guess if they'd checked with their YVR office,
they'd have found that the prototype Elite floatplane used them. Anyway, I
was able to pass them an Email from Montana quoting this drop test, and that
seemed to satisfy them. Whether they'd have been satisfied with less, who
knows?
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 9:58 AM
Subject: RE: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
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I was meaning that at 2,200 the 1800s might get a little bogged down. I'd
imagine they might be kind of sluggish getting onto the step. But of
course, your Rebel will probably carry as much load at 1900 as my Elite will
at maybe 2050. I seem to take about 12 seconds solo, and about 35 seconds
at the 2,200 gross, all on pretty hot days. It was like that this ummer in
Ontario.
On the drop testing at 2200 lbs for the Montanas, Transport simply said that
they had not approved a Murphy on Montanas before, and had no "installation
information" on them. I guess if they'd checked with their YVR office,
they'd have found that the prototype Elite floatplane used them. Anyway, I
was able to pass them an Email from Montana quoting this drop test, and that
seemed to satisfy them. Whether they'd have been satisfied with less, who
knows?
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 9:58 AM
Subject: RE: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Al, not sure what the toll is with lighter buoyancy. Is it harder
to get on the step or longer take-off runs? My Rebel is also
registered at 1900 pounds, and can tell you that is not a heavy
load for it. The only times when my Rebel has struggled on
take-off is at higher altitudes with a good load. At near sea
level I have yet to find any sort of limit. Weight certainly does
make a difference. I can take off solo in 10 seconds or less, but
that increases to over 20 seconds with a heavy load. Of course
glassy water lengthens a run, too. But 30 seconds would be a long
run for me (excluding high altitude lakes). Climb rate goes from
1100 fpm solo to 600 fpm with a heavy load (again at near sea
level).
The only time I don't like heavy loads is when I have to land in
rough water, and for that matter, light loads are not good
either. Not sure if more buoyancy would help with that. I think
that's where longer floats help.
As for the gear, it is stronger than it looks. So far no problems
with mine. Don't think I would want to drop it from too far, but
I just try to keep my landings gentle, which is pretty easy with
a little power.
Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Alan Hepburn
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 5:26 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
In Canada, there is a formula for determining the max
gross, which has wing
area, flap area, power etc. as inputs. Of course,
there is also the issue
of g loading, but on floats I do not believe this is a
concern, as the
airplane flies so much slower. Let's say it's 25%
slower. That makes the
peak gust loading 50% less, so the stress on a
floatplane when hitting a
gust will actually be less than for the same landplane
at factory gross.
Transport Canada also wanted to know that the gear
could take it.
Fortunately, the Montana floats have been drop tested
at 2,200 lbs. I don't
know if an equivalent number exists for the Murphy
1800s, so that might be a
problem. Anyway, I think the lack of buoyancy would
really start to take a
toll with the smaller displacement.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:44 AM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
US when applying forDon't know about your examiner's Bruce, but in the
yourgross weight on thespecial airworthiness certificate, you can put anyMurphy Aircraft. Thereaircraft you want. You are the manufacturer, not
isyou must supply thenothing in the FAA regulations that indicate that
grossRebel on 1800 amphibsweight numbers that the kit designer came up with.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
This gives me a legal
load"factory" rated grossAlthough the Elite and Rebelmy Rebel that heavy,lbs. has to hurtweight the factorylot of documentation toinspected my 2 kits wouldmight like to consider thelbs, and have been
drop2,200 lbs gross. I waswith Transport Canada,what goes on in themy airplane came out
atCanadian rules (which
requireclaimed number ofthan just round theabout 25 lbs left to
paintlbs less than thethey're apparentlywho control
experimentalpermission from them to fitfinished, and to satisfyrelevant bits at theexperience of operating 1800direct with the following
andexperience to
hopefullyrequired guy's :-) )both floats and floathave any contact
details-------------------------------------------------------
------------------
-attempt to clear themof identical floats inunusual or undesirableon identical floats
usedhigher, and with thealso need an
in-servicevalidated in some way.
Oneservice on aircraft typesoperation flown on
high-timemailshot to ask them the
hoursnegotiate on this
pointexceed 2500 hours.excess of 300 hours ofanalysis or load testing
datasuch as FAR 23.Murphy Aircraft, but if
youanalysis for the Elite isgross weight value? It-------------------------------------------------------
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Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Hi Mike,
I wasn't aware of that, about the gross weight in the US, but I know the FAA inspector (not a designated examiner) would of had a problem with me changing the factory numbers. Maybe it was just him but he's the guy you have to sell.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Hepburn <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Sent: Nov 28, 2005 8:18 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
The factory gross for the Elite is 1890# (1800 plus 5% for floats, per Email
from the factory). Of course, at 2,200 the performance is down. I have
only done one water takeoff at that weight, and we were off in about 35
seconds in a moderate wind on a 28C day, so it's still quite usable. An
remember, that was with two up, 59 gallons of fuel, and 30 lbs of baggage,
so a very useful load. The climb test at this weight still showed 500 fpm,
also at 28C.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
around 550 lbs. Does the Elite have the same "factory" rated gross weight of
1733 lbs as the Rebel on amphibs? Although the Elite and Rebel may be good
for 2200 lbs. gross ( I've never flown my Rebel that heavy, but I understand
some have) that extra 230 plus lbs. has to hurt performance, even with the
extra 20/30 HP of an 0360.
support it. I know the two FAA examiners that inspected my 2 kits would not
have issued me a flight certificate otherwise.
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I wasn't aware of that, about the gross weight in the US, but I know the FAA inspector (not a designated examiner) would of had a problem with me changing the factory numbers. Maybe it was just him but he's the guy you have to sell.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Hepburn <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Sent: Nov 28, 2005 8:18 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
The factory gross for the Elite is 1890# (1800 plus 5% for floats, per Email
from the factory). Of course, at 2,200 the performance is down. I have
only done one water takeoff at that weight, and we were off in about 35
seconds in a moderate wind on a 28C day, so it's still quite usable. An
remember, that was with two up, 59 gallons of fuel, and 30 lbs of baggage,
so a very useful load. The climb test at this weight still showed 500 fpm,
also at 28C.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
with a 0320 came in less than 1200 lbs. empty. This gives me a legal load of
Al,
Those numbers give you a 770 lbs. useful load. My Rebel on 1800 amphibs
around 550 lbs. Does the Elite have the same "factory" rated gross weight of
1733 lbs as the Rebel on amphibs? Although the Elite and Rebel may be good
for 2200 lbs. gross ( I've never flown my Rebel that heavy, but I understand
some have) that extra 230 plus lbs. has to hurt performance, even with the
extra 20/30 HP of an 0360.
imposes on the airplane, at least not without a lot of documentation toIn the US, we are not allowed to change the gross weight the factory
support it. I know the two FAA examiners that inspected my 2 kits would not
have issued me a flight certificate otherwise.
colonies!Bruce
---Original Message-----
From: Alan Hepburn <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Sent: Nov 26, 2005 11:37 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Nigel:
If you haven't bought the floats already, you might like to consider the
Montana 2200s, which have a displacement of 2,200 lbs, and have been drop
tested as part of a certification program at the 2,200 lbs gross. I was
able to get my gross on the Elite up to 2,200 lbs with Transport Canada,
theough you Brits probably don't think much of what goes on in the
circuit,If you can't get an increased gross, forget it, as my airplane came out at
1,430 lbs empty and unpainted. According to Canadian rules (which require
you to compute a minimum takeoff weight based on claimed number of
passengers, plus enough fuel to get you further than just round the
experimentalwith a factory gross of 1,890 lbs, that left me about 25 lbs left to paint
the thing! Even with 1800s, which weigh about 100 lbs less than the
Montanas, the legal margins must be very slim, and they're apparently
marginal on buoyancy for the Elite.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Murphy 1800 Amphib's user info required
Hi All
I've just had a letter this morning from the PFA who control
andthemtype aircraft in the UK. I've applied for permission from them to fit
MAM1800 amphib's to my Elite when it's finally finished, and to satisfybottom).they are asking for more data (I've copied the relevant bits at theIt would be a great help if anyone with experience of operating 1800
amphib's on a Rebel or Elite could email me direct with the following
detailsI'll be about to put together the required field experience to hopefully
satisfy the powers that be.
Registration
Type (Rebel or Elite)
Max operating weight (no more than 1890 lbs required guy's :-) )
Hours aircraft has operated on floats
Years (or months) since fitting amphib's
A statement of No Structural problems to date for both floats and float
strut's (if applicable)
Many thanks for your help, and if you can let me have any contact
used--------------------------------------------------------------------------for anyone not on the group I'll contact them direct.
Nigel
745E
Merry Olde England ;-)
admin@airnig.co.uk
--design------------------------
Regarding the floats, then one option would be to attempt to clear themFrom PFA engineering, England.
based on satisfactory in-
service experience abroad, if there are a number of identical floats in
service. To do this, we will need
to obtain a set of drawings to review for any unusual or undesirablefeatures. Then, we will
need a summary of in-service experience built up on identical floats
in-serviceonsameaircraft of the same
weight or higher, with the same landing speeds or higher, and with thewing loading or higher.
To clear the float struts by this method, we will also need an
pointwayexperience breakdown for the
high-weight Rebel on these floats.
Clearly the in-service experience needs to be validated in some way. Oneof doing this would be
to ask the manufacturer to give:
. A summary of the number of float sets in service on aircraft types
stipulated above.
. A summary of the hours flown and types of operation flown on high-time
examples known to the
designer, while operating on these floats.
. A list of other customers who you could mailshot to ask them the hours
flown on their examples
while on floats.
The target values to aim for are:
. A fleet size of 25 aircraft (we are prepared to negotiate on this
youdepending on the hours built
up on the fleet).
. Total fleet hours while on these floats to exceed 2500 hours.
. With at least one example having achieved in excess of 300 hours of
operation.
. No accidents attributable to design defects.
The alternative would be to ask for stress analysis or load testing data
with loads derived from a suitable design code such as FAR 23.
I am not sure whether you are in contact with Murphy Aircraft, but if
are, perhaps you could ask them if a stress analysis for the Elite is
available so that we can work towards the higher gross weight value? It
seems a shame to limit the aircraft to 1650 lb.
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PeoplePC Online
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List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
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List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
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________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
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username "rebel" password "builder"
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