Jim,
Last year, about this time, I faced much the same questions as you do now.
Did I want a finished aircraft? Did I want something mostly finished? Did
I want something as old as I am in a certified aircraft? All were
considered so I could fly my own plane again; sooner.
Or could I trust any of the work that was done before?
Trust is the crux of the issue and unless you really know how a Rebel goes
together or completely disassemble the work and start over, or for some
reason have absolute trust in whomever did the work that has been done: I
found it really hard to trust my fat butt to an unknown quality of
work. How are you going to feel when you hear a little creak or groan at
10,000'?
If you've found someone YOU really TRUST --- do you trust them enough to
risk your life and the life of those you love? Remember con men prosper
because they convince you that you like them.
90% done really scares me, WHY, WHY, WHY!!!!! Even someone who claims to
be an A&P has little credential selling a 90% aircraft; there are good, bad
and worst in every profession. I'd sooner trust a widows inheritance from
an amateur builder. A truly a skilled airplane builder would finish the
work and go for the big bucks that might at least provide a minimal wage
instead of a guaranteed loss in time and money expended: unless they are
earning a fair hourly wage for the work done. Work situations change time
and again for many people over the course of building an airplane, no one
sells what a 90% complete Rebel represents unless they are gaining
something in the process; or unloading a problem. When a 90% project is
sold all liability and responsibility transfers to the finish builder.
Is there some fatal flaw hidden in work mostly done? A major mistake early
on hidden deep inside a lot of cover-up? Are you really experienced enough
to spot such? I didn't feel confident in making that kind of decision
about something I still had (have) so much to learn about. If Wayne, Walt
or Bob or one of a handful of other folks were to first inspect it, maybe,
it would be money well spent to know. The more I learn the less I know.
I never found a deal I could really trust -- so I bought a kit mostly
undone that had sat idle for more than 10 years, it has problems with
corrosion and small things wrongly done, but, nothing I can't undo and do
right or better. I learn as I go and I don't have to trust the other guy
really did do it right from the get go. Though I maybe saved a little
money, I didn't save one second of time; much the contrary. The easy way
would be to buy the factory fast build kit and follow the directions. It
just might be the cheapest as well? I think buying a 90% project is a lot
harder for a first time builder to get right.
Whenever I took my Harley to "supposedly the best" mechanics in the region,
because I didn't have time to service it, I only spent lots of money on
shoddy and worse work: I then had to spend more than thrice the time and
lots more money fixing what they screwed up. Net loss.
The soft grass is lots closer to a Hog than an aircraft. Not nearly so
important to have right.
Who do you trust?
John...
I don't want to be a wet blanket but there are some really serious issues
that need lots of careful consideration. The issue is a lot more important
than mere money.
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Thoughts on a 90% Rebel
-
pequeajim
Thoughts on a 90% Rebel
Thanks for the thoughts, but I hope that I didn't misrepresent this man's
situation. He is a quality builder that I know of in the RC community and
has built three airplane (full scale). Hi situation is such that the job has
been taking him away from the work on the airplane and he has not and will
not have a chance to work on it any more.
I have never had a reason to mistrust this man and unless my eyes deceive me,
his work looks pretty good.
I tend to want to trust people first and when it comes to something like
this, learn as much as I can so that I can make an educated decision about it
without any pre-conceived thoughts.
I sitll have a lot to learn, but the guys on here have been VERY helpful.
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situation. He is a quality builder that I know of in the RC community and
has built three airplane (full scale). Hi situation is such that the job has
been taking him away from the work on the airplane and he has not and will
not have a chance to work on it any more.
I have never had a reason to mistrust this man and unless my eyes deceive me,
his work looks pretty good.
I tend to want to trust people first and when it comes to something like
this, learn as much as I can so that I can make an educated decision about it
without any pre-conceived thoughts.
I sitll have a lot to learn, but the guys on here have been VERY helpful.
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John Kramer
Thoughts on a 90% Rebel
Sounds like you may have got lucky, good luck.
I wish I was 90% done.
John...
At 10:27 PM 09/07/05, you wrote:
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I wish I was 90% done.
John...
At 10:27 PM 09/07/05, you wrote:
Thanks for the thoughts, but I hope that I didn't misrepresent this man's
situation. He is a quality builder that I know of in the RC community and
has built three airplane (full scale). Hi situation is such that the job has
been taking him away from the work on the airplane and he has not and will
not have a chance to work on it any more.
I have never had a reason to mistrust this man and unless my eyes deceive me,
his work looks pretty good.
I tend to want to trust people first and when it comes to something like
this, learn as much as I can so that I can make an educated decision about it
without any pre-conceived thoughts.
I sitll have a lot to learn, but the guys on here have been VERY helpful.
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Ken
Thoughts on a 90% Rebel
FWIW I had a vague idea that this would have some similarity to a large
model airplane - I was mostly wrong. A lot of issues come up that can be
dealt with rather shoddily or professionally - and then sometimes
covered up and forgotten. It is very easy to gloss over mistakes that
may or may not be important. Many builders exceed professional standards
but the archives probably still have examples of things like cut wing
stringers!
I think it is rare that anyone actually saves time or money by
purchasing a partly built Rebel. Mine was at most 20% along (I'm sure
the seller and I thought it was more at the time) but a lot of it still
had to be taken apart for current upgrades. It's been 90% for at least a
year now and that is not for lack of effort ;) I think the learning
curve is steeper than most builders realize and it can also be expensive
if you don't start out with the tail feathers.
OTOH a serial number in the 500's is fairly recent and after most
factory upgrades. Many of the non factory upgrades are not essential IMO
but a few are. I'm also starting to see why a "builder" might just not
want to go through the administrative details and expense of actually
flying the thing, especially with a changed personal situation... 90%
might be safer than buying a machine that has just flown and quickly put
up for sale. I agree with the advice that it is very important to get an
experienced Rebel builder to have a critical look at a partly built
machine. I'd take a checklist with me if I were doing such an
inspection. Builders love to look at other projects anyway. Where is
this project maybe we can get a volunteer?
Ken
119R
pequeajim@dcsol.com wrote:
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model airplane - I was mostly wrong. A lot of issues come up that can be
dealt with rather shoddily or professionally - and then sometimes
covered up and forgotten. It is very easy to gloss over mistakes that
may or may not be important. Many builders exceed professional standards
but the archives probably still have examples of things like cut wing
stringers!
I think it is rare that anyone actually saves time or money by
purchasing a partly built Rebel. Mine was at most 20% along (I'm sure
the seller and I thought it was more at the time) but a lot of it still
had to be taken apart for current upgrades. It's been 90% for at least a
year now and that is not for lack of effort ;) I think the learning
curve is steeper than most builders realize and it can also be expensive
if you don't start out with the tail feathers.
OTOH a serial number in the 500's is fairly recent and after most
factory upgrades. Many of the non factory upgrades are not essential IMO
but a few are. I'm also starting to see why a "builder" might just not
want to go through the administrative details and expense of actually
flying the thing, especially with a changed personal situation... 90%
might be safer than buying a machine that has just flown and quickly put
up for sale. I agree with the advice that it is very important to get an
experienced Rebel builder to have a critical look at a partly built
machine. I'd take a checklist with me if I were doing such an
inspection. Builders love to look at other projects anyway. Where is
this project maybe we can get a volunteer?
Ken
119R
pequeajim@dcsol.com wrote:
Thanks for the thoughts, but I hope that I didn't misrepresent this man's
situation. He is a quality builder that I know of in the RC community and
has built three airplane (full scale). Hi situation is such that the job has
been taking him away from the work on the airplane and he has not and will
not have a chance to work on it any more.
I have never had a reason to mistrust this man and unless my eyes deceive me,
his work looks pretty good.
I tend to want to trust people first and when it comes to something like
this, learn as much as I can so that I can make an educated decision about it
without any pre-conceived thoughts.
I sitll have a lot to learn, but the guys on here have been VERY helpful.
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pequeajim
Thoughts on a 90% Rebel
Jim: Good catch! No, the mod is not in yet. He pointed that out to me when
I looked at the AC. There are a few items like that.
Thanks Ken for the input. It is a good suggestion to have an experienced
builder look at the AC before I lay donw the cash. I just had a person email
me last night, willing to answer any questions that I have. He is building a
Super Rebel and is local, so I am gong to give him a call tonight.
Of course Bob P has called me a couple of times burning up a cell minutes,
(just kidding Bob...), and has been a big help with the information.
Youa re right tho, I think the 90% complete will end up needing another 90% to
finish. I want to take my time and if it does not fly until next fall, that
will be ok as long as it is done right.
Thanks to the both of you for the input.
Jim!
-> FWIW I had a vague idea that this would have some similarity to a large
-> model airplane - I was mostly wrong. A lot of issues come up that can be
-> dealt with rather shoddily or professionally - and then sometimes
-> covered up and forgotten. It is very easy to gloss over mistakes that
-> may or may not be important. Many builders exceed professional standards
-> but the archives probably still have examples of things like cut wing
-> stringers!
->
-> I think it is rare that anyone actually saves time or money by
-> purchasing a partly built Rebel. Mine was at most 20% along (I'm sure
-> the seller and I thought it was more at the time) but a lot of it still
-> had to be taken apart for current upgrades. It's been 90% for at least a
-> year now and that is not for lack of effort ;) I think the learning
-> curve is steeper than most builders realize and it can also be expensive
-> if you don't start out with the tail feathers.
->
-> OTOH a serial number in the 500's is fairly recent and after most
-> factory upgrades. Many of the non factory upgrades are not essential IMO
-> but a few are. I'm also starting to see why a "builder" might just not
-> want to go through the administrative details and expense of actually
-> flying the thing, especially with a changed personal situation... 90%
-> might be safer than buying a machine that has just flown and quickly put
-> up for sale. I agree with the advice that it is very important to get an
-> experienced Rebel builder to have a critical look at a partly built
-> machine. I'd take a checklist with me if I were doing such an
-> inspection. Builders love to look at other projects anyway. Where is
-> this project maybe we can get a volunteer?
->
-> Ken
-> 119R
->
-> pequeajim@dcsol.com wrote:
->
-> >Thanks for the thoughts, but I hope that I didn't misrepresent this man's
-> >situation. He is a quality builder that I know of in the RC community and
-> >has built three airplane (full scale). Hi situation is such that the job
has
-> >been taking him away from the work on the airplane and he has not and will
-> >not have a chance to work on it any more.
-> >
-> >I have never had a reason to mistrust this man and unless my eyes deceive
me,
-> >his work looks pretty good.
-> >
-> >I tend to want to trust people first and when it comes to something like
-> >this, learn as much as I can so that I can make an educated decision about
it
-> >without any pre-conceived thoughts.
-> >
-> >I sitll have a lot to learn, but the guys on here have been VERY helpful.
-> >
-> >
-> >
->
->
->
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I looked at the AC. There are a few items like that.
Thanks Ken for the input. It is a good suggestion to have an experienced
builder look at the AC before I lay donw the cash. I just had a person email
me last night, willing to answer any questions that I have. He is building a
Super Rebel and is local, so I am gong to give him a call tonight.
Of course Bob P has called me a couple of times burning up a cell minutes,
(just kidding Bob...), and has been a big help with the information.
Youa re right tho, I think the 90% complete will end up needing another 90% to
finish. I want to take my time and if it does not fly until next fall, that
will be ok as long as it is done right.
Thanks to the both of you for the input.
Jim!
-> FWIW I had a vague idea that this would have some similarity to a large
-> model airplane - I was mostly wrong. A lot of issues come up that can be
-> dealt with rather shoddily or professionally - and then sometimes
-> covered up and forgotten. It is very easy to gloss over mistakes that
-> may or may not be important. Many builders exceed professional standards
-> but the archives probably still have examples of things like cut wing
-> stringers!
->
-> I think it is rare that anyone actually saves time or money by
-> purchasing a partly built Rebel. Mine was at most 20% along (I'm sure
-> the seller and I thought it was more at the time) but a lot of it still
-> had to be taken apart for current upgrades. It's been 90% for at least a
-> year now and that is not for lack of effort ;) I think the learning
-> curve is steeper than most builders realize and it can also be expensive
-> if you don't start out with the tail feathers.
->
-> OTOH a serial number in the 500's is fairly recent and after most
-> factory upgrades. Many of the non factory upgrades are not essential IMO
-> but a few are. I'm also starting to see why a "builder" might just not
-> want to go through the administrative details and expense of actually
-> flying the thing, especially with a changed personal situation... 90%
-> might be safer than buying a machine that has just flown and quickly put
-> up for sale. I agree with the advice that it is very important to get an
-> experienced Rebel builder to have a critical look at a partly built
-> machine. I'd take a checklist with me if I were doing such an
-> inspection. Builders love to look at other projects anyway. Where is
-> this project maybe we can get a volunteer?
->
-> Ken
-> 119R
->
-> pequeajim@dcsol.com wrote:
->
-> >Thanks for the thoughts, but I hope that I didn't misrepresent this man's
-> >situation. He is a quality builder that I know of in the RC community and
-> >has built three airplane (full scale). Hi situation is such that the job
has
-> >been taking him away from the work on the airplane and he has not and will
-> >not have a chance to work on it any more.
-> >
-> >I have never had a reason to mistrust this man and unless my eyes deceive
me,
-> >his work looks pretty good.
-> >
-> >I tend to want to trust people first and when it comes to something like
-> >this, learn as much as I can so that I can make an educated decision about
it
-> >without any pre-conceived thoughts.
-> >
-> >I sitll have a lot to learn, but the guys on here have been VERY helpful.
-> >
-> >
-> >
->
->
->
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Bob Patterson
Thoughts on a 90% Rebel
VERY well said, John !! Especially the bit about it being
MUCH more work to repair/correct/improve something that has
already been built !! Wayne has raised this to an art, but it
IS definitely a new and challenging skill, well beyond just building
a standard kit !!
It is indeed a sad truth that partially completed experimental
aircraft, regardless of visible workmanship, almost always sell
for less than the price of a new kit !! A finished, flying aircraft
is worth VERY much more, as it's a 'proven product'.
.....bobp
-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 07 September 2005 11:12 pm, John Kramer wrote:
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MUCH more work to repair/correct/improve something that has
already been built !! Wayne has raised this to an art, but it
IS definitely a new and challenging skill, well beyond just building
a standard kit !!
It is indeed a sad truth that partially completed experimental
aircraft, regardless of visible workmanship, almost always sell
for less than the price of a new kit !! A finished, flying aircraft
is worth VERY much more, as it's a 'proven product'.
.....bobp
-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 07 September 2005 11:12 pm, John Kramer wrote:
DidJim,
Last year, about this time, I faced much the same questions as you do now.
Did I want a finished aircraft? Did I want something mostly finished?
toI want something as old as I am in a certified aircraft? All were
considered so I could fly my own plane again; sooner.
Or could I trust any of the work that was done before?
Trust is the crux of the issue and unless you really know how a Rebel goes
together or completely disassemble the work and start over, or for some
reason have absolute trust in whomever did the work that has been done: I
found it really hard to trust my fat butt to an unknown quality of
work. How are you going to feel when you hear a little creak or groan at
10,000'?
If you've found someone YOU really TRUST --- do you trust them enough to
risk your life and the life of those you love? Remember con men prosper
because they convince you that you like them.
90% done really scares me, WHY, WHY, WHY!!!!! Even someone who claims
badbe an A&P has little credential selling a 90% aircraft; there are good,
earlyand worst in every profession. I'd sooner trust a widows inheritance from
an amateur builder. A truly a skilled airplane builder would finish the
work and go for the big bucks that might at least provide a minimal wage
instead of a guaranteed loss in time and money expended: unless they are
earning a fair hourly wage for the work done. Work situations change time
and again for many people over the course of building an airplane, no one
sells what a 90% complete Rebel represents unless they are gaining
something in the process; or unloading a problem. When a 90% project is
sold all liability and responsibility transfers to the finish builder.
Is there some fatal flaw hidden in work mostly done? A major mistake
enoughon hidden deep inside a lot of cover-up? Are you really experienced
region,to spot such? I didn't feel confident in making that kind of decision
about something I still had (have) so much to learn about. If Wayne, Walt
or Bob or one of a handful of other folks were to first inspect it, maybe,
it would be money well spent to know. The more I learn the less I know.
I never found a deal I could really trust -- so I bought a kit mostly
undone that had sat idle for more than 10 years, it has problems with
corrosion and small things wrongly done, but, nothing I can't undo and do
right or better. I learn as I go and I don't have to trust the other guy
really did do it right from the get go. Though I maybe saved a little
money, I didn't save one second of time; much the contrary. The easy way
would be to buy the factory fast build kit and follow the directions. It
just might be the cheapest as well? I think buying a 90% project is a lot
harder for a first time builder to get right.
Whenever I took my Harley to "supposedly the best" mechanics in the
importantbecause I didn't have time to service it, I only spent lots of money on
shoddy and worse work: I then had to spend more than thrice the time and
lots more money fixing what they screwed up. Net loss.
The soft grass is lots closer to a Hog than an aircraft. Not nearly so
important to have right.
Who do you trust?
John...
I don't want to be a wet blanket but there are some really serious issues
that need lots of careful consideration. The issue is a lot more
than mere money.
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Jesse Jenks
Thoughts on a 90% Rebel
Jim,
I think your read on the situation is probably right, and like you say, if
it looks good it probably is good. As far as the trust issue goes, it is no
different when you get in a Cessna or any other airplane. Anyone who has
looked carefully at the construction of some certified airplanes will see
some rivets, for example, that most homebuilders would laugh at. I have even
heard stories of assembly workers for Boeing intentionally not installing
certain rivets because they were in a place that was too hard to access.
Having said that, I wouldn't buy a partially completed kit unless it was a
really, really good deal. I just don't think it will save you much time or
money in the long run. You will still have to learn all about the
construction process to be able to finish the plane, but from the outside
in. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just food fr thought. I am a first
time builder, and not too far along (tail and one wing done). I have found
that the learning is what takes time. After that it's just manual labor
(labor of love though), and it goes quickly in comparison. So in your case
you will still have to do a lot of learning, but not so much labor.
Jesse
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I think your read on the situation is probably right, and like you say, if
it looks good it probably is good. As far as the trust issue goes, it is no
different when you get in a Cessna or any other airplane. Anyone who has
looked carefully at the construction of some certified airplanes will see
some rivets, for example, that most homebuilders would laugh at. I have even
heard stories of assembly workers for Boeing intentionally not installing
certain rivets because they were in a place that was too hard to access.
Having said that, I wouldn't buy a partially completed kit unless it was a
really, really good deal. I just don't think it will save you much time or
money in the long run. You will still have to learn all about the
construction process to be able to finish the plane, but from the outside
in. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just food fr thought. I am a first
time builder, and not too far along (tail and one wing done). I have found
that the learning is what takes time. After that it's just manual labor
(labor of love though), and it goes quickly in comparison. So in your case
you will still have to do a lot of learning, but not so much labor.
Jesse
From: pequeajim@dcsol.com
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Thoughts on a 90% Rebel
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 19:27:29 -0800
Thanks for the thoughts, but I hope that I didn't misrepresent this man's
situation. He is a quality builder that I know of in the RC community and
has built three airplane (full scale). Hi situation is such that the job
has
been taking him away from the work on the airplane and he has not and will
not have a chance to work on it any more.
I have never had a reason to mistrust this man and unless my eyes deceive
me,
his work looks pretty good.
I tend to want to trust people first and when it comes to something like
this, learn as much as I can so that I can make an educated decision about
it
without any pre-conceived thoughts.
I sitll have a lot to learn, but the guys on here have been VERY helpful.
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pequeajim
Thoughts on a 90% Rebel
The cool thing about this group is that the builders bring up some very good
concepts and ideas that I need to pay attention to when choosing a direction
in buying and finishing an aircraft. No doubt, there is a lot to it and much
more than any of the manufacturers like to tell us.
I have already learned quite a bit since looking at the airplane a week ago
and that is just the tip of the iceberg. My job will be to take what I hear
and try to make sense out of it and apply it when examining the airplane again
next week.
I will try to take some pictures of the strategic areas so that you guys can
offer some other opinions. I AM going to get a hold of a couple experienced
builders and have them look over the airplane. I also want to hear the engine
run, and will take the serial number and receipt number and call the factory.
That will settle any questions with the engine history.
I will be an interesting two weeks!! <grin>
->
-> Jim,
-> I think your read on the situation is probably right, and like you say, if
-> it looks good it probably is good. As far as the trust issue goes, it is no
-> different when you get in a Cessna or any other airplane. Anyone who has
-> looked carefully at the construction of some certified airplanes will see
-> some rivets, for example, that most homebuilders would laugh at. I have
even
-> heard stories of assembly workers for Boeing intentionally not installing
-> certain rivets because they were in a place that was too hard to access.
-> Having said that, I wouldn't buy a partially completed kit unless it was a
-> really, really good deal. I just don't think it will save you much time or
-> money in the long run. You will still have to learn all about the
-> construction process to be able to finish the plane, but from the outside
-> in. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just food fr thought. I am a first
-> time builder, and not too far along (tail and one wing done). I have found
-> that the learning is what takes time. After that it's just manual labor
-> (labor of love though), and it goes quickly in comparison. So in your case
-> you will still have to do a lot of learning, but not so much labor.
-> Jesse
->
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concepts and ideas that I need to pay attention to when choosing a direction
in buying and finishing an aircraft. No doubt, there is a lot to it and much
more than any of the manufacturers like to tell us.
I have already learned quite a bit since looking at the airplane a week ago
and that is just the tip of the iceberg. My job will be to take what I hear
and try to make sense out of it and apply it when examining the airplane again
next week.
I will try to take some pictures of the strategic areas so that you guys can
offer some other opinions. I AM going to get a hold of a couple experienced
builders and have them look over the airplane. I also want to hear the engine
run, and will take the serial number and receipt number and call the factory.
That will settle any questions with the engine history.
I will be an interesting two weeks!! <grin>
->
-> Jim,
-> I think your read on the situation is probably right, and like you say, if
-> it looks good it probably is good. As far as the trust issue goes, it is no
-> different when you get in a Cessna or any other airplane. Anyone who has
-> looked carefully at the construction of some certified airplanes will see
-> some rivets, for example, that most homebuilders would laugh at. I have
even
-> heard stories of assembly workers for Boeing intentionally not installing
-> certain rivets because they were in a place that was too hard to access.
-> Having said that, I wouldn't buy a partially completed kit unless it was a
-> really, really good deal. I just don't think it will save you much time or
-> money in the long run. You will still have to learn all about the
-> construction process to be able to finish the plane, but from the outside
-> in. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just food fr thought. I am a first
-> time builder, and not too far along (tail and one wing done). I have found
-> that the learning is what takes time. After that it's just manual labor
-> (labor of love though), and it goes quickly in comparison. So in your case
-> you will still have to do a lot of learning, but not so much labor.
-> Jesse
->
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