firewall plates and floor stiffness

[Mike Betti]

Thanks Al,
I looked in the archives and I think see those stringers, what are they,
square tubing? And I see the plate in each corner, is that the double up you
are talking about? What forward side skins are you talking about, the side
sills?
Mike Betti

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: firewall plates

** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

Mike:

If you double up on the forward floor (I had some pics in the archives -
should still be there) that also provides a lot more stiffness between the
lower motor mounts - achieves much the same as the plates, plus something
is
necessary to provide better mounting for the brake pedals and stop
oil-canning of the forward floor, especially with an O360. Also, use the
thicker corner wraps for the nose. MAM has them for the trkie version,
and
they again help to stop oil canning.

Be sure to use longer rivets to rivet the forward side skins to the door
posts. I don't believe the instuctions don't tell you to do this, and
that
may be why some folks have had trouble with pulled rivets in this area. I
know there's a recommendation to double up on the rivets, but if you
happened to use RV1410s, that would sure be a problem waiting to happen.
There's far too much metal to go through in this area for 1410s.

Regards, Al





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[Gary Gustafson]

I am a recent purchaser of a partially complete Rebel, #242, and now
read with interest the emails from the Rebel builders group.
After reading the two emails below, I am somewhat concerned about the
references to beefing up the forward skins, the firewall, and oil
canning. I have just mounted a Lycoming O-320 on the fuselage. Should
I be concerned about oil canning???

I look on the builders web site and see pictures of firewall reinforcing
and cabin floor stiffeners.

I also see a series of pictures of skylight hole cracks and doublers.

I do not find an explanation as to why these mods were needed or what
caused the cracks to occur in the first place. Really hard landings.
Fatigue after many hours of use. MAM has not issued any directives
that I can find.

So could someone explain if these mods are necessary for an O-320 Rebel.
Now is the time for me to correct these if there is a long term problem.
Should I take steps to beef up my plane?

Thanking you in advance for any assistance.
Gary Gustafson #242

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Betti
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 11:43 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: firewall plates and floor stiffness

** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

Thanks Al,
I looked in the archives and I think see those stringers, what are they,
square tubing? And I see the plate in each corner, is that the double up you

are talking about? What forward side skins are you talking about, the side
sills?
Mike Betti

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: firewall plates

** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

Mike:

If you double up on the forward floor (I had some pics in the archives -
should still be there) that also provides a lot more stiffness between the
lower motor mounts - achieves much the same as the plates, plus something
is
necessary to provide better mounting for the brake pedals and stop
oil-canning of the forward floor, especially with an O360. Also, use the
thicker corner wraps for the nose. MAM has them for the trkie version,
and
they again help to stop oil canning.

Be sure to use longer rivets to rivet the forward side skins to the door
posts. I don't believe the instuctions don't tell you to do this, and
that
may be why some folks have had trouble with pulled rivets in this area. I
know there's a recommendation to double up on the rivets, but if you
happened to use RV1410s, that would sure be a problem waiting to happen.
There's far too much metal to go through in this area for 1410s.

Regards, Al





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[Drew Dalgleish]

I am a recent purchaser of a partially complete Rebel, #242, and now
read with interest the emails from the Rebel builders group.
After reading the two emails below, I am somewhat concerned about the
references to beefing up the forward skins, the firewall, and oil
canning. I have just mounted a Lycoming O-320 on the fuselage. Should
I be concerned about oil canning???

I look on the builders web site and see pictures of firewall reinforcing
and cabin floor stiffeners.

I also see a series of pictures of skylight hole cracks and doublers.

I do not find an explanation as to why these mods were needed or what
caused the cracks to occur in the first place. Really hard landings.
Fatigue after many hours of use. MAM has not issued any directives
that I can find.

So could someone explain if these mods are necessary for an O-320 Rebel.
Now is the time for me to correct these if there is a long term problem.
Should I take steps to beef up my plane?

Thanking you in advance for any assistance.
Gary Gustafson #242

Hi Gary welcome to the list. The Rebel is a great plane but there's always
weak points. Use the search enine at the dscol site to look for ontario
mods. This covers all the weak points discovered by Wayne O'shea through
personal torture testing and from rebuilding other peoples wrecks. The main
areas needing beefing up are the tailcone and the firewall. I think you can
find directives at the MAM site by searching the technical bulletens.
Drew





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[Ken]

Hi Gary

All the details plus a couple of summaries should still be in the archives.
The absolute definate mods are the ones that are in the MAM bulletins
and they include the horizontal channel on the firewall between the top
engine mounts and I'd do the float fix one even if you are not planning
floats. OTOH I did not do the horizontal channel as I have a completely
different engine mount the removes the need for it. There are a couple
of dozen more things that tend to crop up with high time or rough usage.

I personally wouldn't worry about the skylight doublers on wheels as
long as you have generous round corners on the forward skylights. The
roof skin does take yawing loads loads from the wings but those doublers
are not common - at least not yet ;) I'm going to wait and see if a
problem develops there after I get flying. As you've probably surmized
Wayne does a lot of rebuilds and repairs so he is often first to see
problems develop and he has been very good at sharing that information.
(That is no small thing when one considers how many people have kept
quiet about flaws they knew about and sold their aircraft to an
unsuspecting buyer!) Others who fly little and only off paved strips may
go a lifetime without these issues developing. OTOH if you plan to
operate in the rough and own it a long time many of these upgrades are
fairly easy to do during construction and before painting...

As for oil canning you will see that quite a few folks have followed
Wayne's lead and provided some support from each engine mount back to
the cage. A square tube, a channel, a witches hat, or something. Imagine
pushing and pulling forward and aft on those engine mount bolts and you
can see that the rear of the top mounts (several inches behind the
firewall) will want to flex sideways. The rear of the lower mounts will
want to flex up and down. The lower corner wraps behind the firewall
have been thickened a couple of times but MAM never issued a bulletin on
that. If yours are still 0.020 I'd consider upgrading those as there are
reports of cracks developing fairly quickly with an 0-320 especially if
the parts are dented in any way. I really think MAM had the rotax912 and
0-235 in mind as the popular engine choice when they designed that part
of the aircraft rather than the heavier 0-320.

Also make sure you can apply full rudder and full brake simultaneously
and that may reduce the chance of having to repair things after a ground
loop.

Ken
119R

Gary Gustafson wrote:

I am a recent purchaser of a partially complete Rebel, #242, and now
read with interest the emails from the Rebel builders group.
After reading the two emails below, I am somewhat concerned about the
references to beefing up the forward skins, the firewall, and oil
canning. I have just mounted a Lycoming O-320 on the fuselage. Should
I be concerned about oil canning???

I look on the builders web site and see pictures of firewall reinforcing
and cabin floor stiffeners.

I also see a series of pictures of skylight hole cracks and doublers.

I do not find an explanation as to why these mods were needed or what
caused the cracks to occur in the first place. Really hard landings.
Fatigue after many hours of use. MAM has not issued any directives
that I can find.

So could someone explain if these mods are necessary for an O-320 Rebel.
Now is the time for me to correct these if there is a long term problem.
Should I take steps to beef up my plane?

Thanking you in advance for any assistance.
Gary Gustafson #242

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[Terry Dazey]

Welcome to the Group Gary! Congrads on your purchase.

I think in a previous post a few months ago that Steve Whitenect had
compiled a list of modifications he gathered. I did a search for that post
for you but could not come up with anything. (I think it was Steve that
posted). However, I am sure it is in the archives somewhere. Go to Wildcat
and poke around. You will find some excellent ideas and suggestions from the
groups posts.

I did purchase and install Waynes firewall stiffener plates and, although I
am not flying yet, they look like it should do the trick there. I know that
many of these are installed on flying Rebels with success. You will love
yourself for doing this mod.

Roger Hoffman (Rebel Builder) has a great web site with some building detail
photos to give you some ideas. His workmanship is excellent. He is getting
close to flying, so he has a very good photo archive. Very helpful to say
the least! . . . I like pictures =:-).

http://tincantimes.dcsol.com/

Here is a couple more web sites that you might enjoy:

http://communities.msn.com/NWRebelExper ... t/homepage
http://www.irishfield.on.ca/
http://www.eaachapter185.ca/rebel.htm

Good luck on the project.

Terry Dazey
Rebel 662
Sumner, Washington USA

I am a recent purchaser of a partially complete Rebel, #242, and now
read with interest the emails from the Rebel builders group.
After reading the two emails below, I am somewhat concerned about the
references to beefing up the forward skins, the firewall, and oil
canning. I have just mounted a Lycoming O-320 on the fuselage. Should
I be concerned about oil canning???

I look on the builders web site and see pictures of firewall reinforcing
and cabin floor stiffeners.

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[John Kramer]

Gary,

I too purchased an unfinished kit, a lot more unfinished than yours from
the sound of it.

I am a first time builder and have found it invaluable to go thru the
archives and read everything Wayne has written, quite a number of those
postings I have printed and taken to the shop for inclusion with the
manual. I am trying to get up to speed and the information I've found here
is the most helpful aid to learning next to actually getting it done.

I have found several little things I think it necessary to go back and redo
from the starter work the first builder of 369R did. Tail feathers and one
wing started.

There are a few others who's postings I search out and read; all they've
written, but they aren't leaving soon, and we wouldn't want them getting a
swelled head. I sure hope the information on this list keeps flowing so
freely because it is a real big help.

I printed out a few pictures of -CYP to post around the shop for inspiration.

Good luck,

John...

P.S. Here's a link to another site with pics of the Ontario mods posted:
http://wrayt.tripod.com/construction.html




At 11:10 AM 06/05/05, you wrote:

** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

I am a recent purchaser of a partially complete Rebel, #242, and now
read with interest the emails from the Rebel builders group.
After reading the two emails below, I am somewhat concerned about the
references to beefing up the forward skins, the firewall, and oil
canning. I have just mounted a Lycoming O-320 on the fuselage. Should
I be concerned about oil canning???

I look on the builders web site and see pictures of firewall reinforcing
and cabin floor stiffeners.

I also see a series of pictures of skylight hole cracks and doublers.

I do not find an explanation as to why these mods were needed or what
caused the cracks to occur in the first place. Really hard landings.
Fatigue after many hours of use. MAM has not issued any directives
that I can find.

So could someone explain if these mods are necessary for an O-320 Rebel.
Now is the time for me to correct these if there is a long term problem.
Should I take steps to beef up my plane?

Thanking you in advance for any assistance.
Gary Gustafson #242

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Betti
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 11:43 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: firewall plates and floor stiffness

** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

Thanks Al,
I looked in the archives and I think see those stringers, what are they,
square tubing? And I see the plate in each corner, is that the double up you

are talking about? What forward side skins are you talking about, the side
sills?
Mike Betti

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: firewall plates

** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

Mike:

If you double up on the forward floor (I had some pics in the archives -
should still be there) that also provides a lot more stiffness between the
lower motor mounts - achieves much the same as the plates, plus something
is
necessary to provide better mounting for the brake pedals and stop
oil-canning of the forward floor, especially with an O360. Also, use the
thicker corner wraps for the nose. MAM has them for the trkie version,
and
they again help to stop oil canning.

Be sure to use longer rivets to rivet the forward side skins to the door
posts. I don't believe the instuctions don't tell you to do this, and
that
may be why some folks have had trouble with pulled rivets in this area. I
know there's a recommendation to double up on the rivets, but if you
happened to use RV1410s, that would sure be a problem waiting to happen.
There's far too much metal to go through in this area for 1410s.

Regards, Al





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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fly too low or too slow and the ground will rise up and smite thee.






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[Jones, Michael]

hi gary

where are you located, maybe you can get experienced builder to come and
have look at your kit, would have saved me lots of time if i had an
experienced builder to look at kit

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Gary Gustafson
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 12:11 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: firewall plates and floor stiffness


** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

I am a recent purchaser of a partially complete Rebel, #242, and now
read with interest the emails from the Rebel builders group.
After reading the two emails below, I am somewhat concerned about the
references to beefing up the forward skins, the firewall, and oil
canning. I have just mounted a Lycoming O-320 on the fuselage. Should
I be concerned about oil canning???

I look on the builders web site and see pictures of firewall reinforcing
and cabin floor stiffeners.

I also see a series of pictures of skylight hole cracks and doublers.

I do not find an explanation as to why these mods were needed or what
caused the cracks to occur in the first place. Really hard landings.
Fatigue after many hours of use. MAM has not issued any directives
that I can find.

So could someone explain if these mods are necessary for an O-320 Rebel.
Now is the time for me to correct these if there is a long term problem.
Should I take steps to beef up my plane?

Thanking you in advance for any assistance.
Gary Gustafson #242

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Betti
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 11:43 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: firewall plates and floor stiffness

** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

Thanks Al,
I looked in the archives and I think see those stringers, what are they,
square tubing? And I see the plate in each corner, is that the double up you

are talking about? What forward side skins are you talking about, the side
sills?
Mike Betti

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: firewall plates

** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

Mike:

If you double up on the forward floor (I had some pics in the archives -
should still be there) that also provides a lot more stiffness between the
lower motor mounts - achieves much the same as the plates, plus something
is
necessary to provide better mounting for the brake pedals and stop
oil-canning of the forward floor, especially with an O360. Also, use the
thicker corner wraps for the nose. MAM has them for the trkie version,
and
they again help to stop oil canning.

Be sure to use longer rivets to rivet the forward side skins to the door
posts. I don't believe the instuctions don't tell you to do this, and
that
may be why some folks have had trouble with pulled rivets in this area. I
know there's a recommendation to double up on the rivets, but if you
happened to use RV1410s, that would sure be a problem waiting to happen.
There's far too much metal to go through in this area for 1410s.

Regards, Al





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NOTICE - This message is the property of HATCH. It may also be
confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient
of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,
copy or take any action with respect to it.

If you have received this message in error please notify
HATCH immediately via mailto:MailAdmin@hatch.ca.



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[Gary Gustafson]

I live in Palm Beach County, Florida and the plane is located at
Treasure Coast Airpark (private strip between Ft. Pierce and
Okeechobee). I have a few experienced builders out at the air
Park who are helping me out. My problem is getting my arms around
All the "field" mods that people who have been flying for quite
awhile have found necessary. I have received a wealth of information
and pictures as a result of my email. Now I have to go thru each
issue to determine if it is necessary. I will put in all critical
items. Then I will begin undoing some of what I have done to put
in these field mods.

However, it would be nice to have a visit from some experienced
Murphy Rebel builder and there are a few here in Florida.

Gary Gustafson

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jones,
Michael
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 7:58 AM
To: 'rebel-builders@dcsol.com'
Subject: RE: firewall plates and floor stiffness

** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

hi gary

where are you located, maybe you can get experienced builder to come and
have look at your kit, would have saved me lots of time if i had an
experienced builder to look at kit

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Gary Gustafson
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 12:11 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: firewall plates and floor stiffness


** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

I am a recent purchaser of a partially complete Rebel, #242, and now
read with interest the emails from the Rebel builders group.
After reading the two emails below, I am somewhat concerned about the
references to beefing up the forward skins, the firewall, and oil
canning. I have just mounted a Lycoming O-320 on the fuselage. Should
I be concerned about oil canning???

I look on the builders web site and see pictures of firewall reinforcing
and cabin floor stiffeners.

I also see a series of pictures of skylight hole cracks and doublers.

I do not find an explanation as to why these mods were needed or what
caused the cracks to occur in the first place. Really hard landings.
Fatigue after many hours of use. MAM has not issued any directives
that I can find.

So could someone explain if these mods are necessary for an O-320 Rebel.
Now is the time for me to correct these if there is a long term problem.
Should I take steps to beef up my plane?

Thanking you in advance for any assistance.
Gary Gustafson #242

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Betti
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 11:43 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: firewall plates and floor stiffness

** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

Thanks Al,
I looked in the archives and I think see those stringers, what are they,
square tubing? And I see the plate in each corner, is that the double up you

are talking about? What forward side skins are you talking about, the side
sills?
Mike Betti

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: firewall plates

** Check your subject, does it still reflect the message? **

Mike:

If you double up on the forward floor (I had some pics in the archives -
should still be there) that also provides a lot more stiffness between the
lower motor mounts - achieves much the same as the plates, plus something
is
necessary to provide better mounting for the brake pedals and stop
oil-canning of the forward floor, especially with an O360. Also, use the
thicker corner wraps for the nose. MAM has them for the trkie version,
and
they again help to stop oil canning.

Be sure to use longer rivets to rivet the forward side skins to the door
posts. I don't believe the instuctions don't tell you to do this, and
that
may be why some folks have had trouble with pulled rivets in this area. I
know there's a recommendation to double up on the rivets, but if you
happened to use RV1410s, that would sure be a problem waiting to happen.
There's far too much metal to go through in this area for 1410s.

Regards, Al





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of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,
copy or take any action with respect to it.

If you have received this message in error please notify
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