rebel tail alignment

[Jones, Michael]

hi all

mounting my horizontal stab and after sundays meeting have few questions
about the alignment of all the tail components so here goes

1.dorsal fin, my fin is off set 3/4" as per the manual, when i install
dorsal fin i assume it aligns with the fin at the same angle to the centre
line of the fuselage or does it mount straight to centre line

2. horizontal stab fit, with my fin offset by 3/4" the front fin attach
bractet is now about 1/2" inch to the left of center, this now interferes
with the front horizontal stab mounting bracket about, you guesed it 1/2"
inch. the question here seems to be how far in towards the centre is the
horizontal stab bracket pulled ? i assume it should be flush with the
bulkhead it mounts to, or how close does the horizontal stab inner most rib
sit from the fuselage body ?

3. according to the manual the horizontal stab should have 1 deg of positive
incidence, no one seems to recall this and when i checked it on an actual
rebel it did not appear to be there, any comments

4. in the chapter for mounting the horizontal stab we are instructed to
level the plane using the main carry throughs, i assume this means level in
pitch and roll axis, so the tail must go up into the air

thanx for all help

mike#007

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[Ken]

Mike
See embedded. My memory was indeed wrong in regards to the stab
incidence. A related msg is 29apr2000 from Richard DeCiero, subject-
fuse leveling. If its not in the archive let me know.
Ken

Jones, Michael wrote:

hi all

mounting my horizontal stab and after sundays meeting have few questions
about the alignment of all the tail components so here goes

1.dorsal fin, my fin is off set 3/4" as per the manual, when i install
dorsal fin i assume it aligns with the fin at the same angle to the centre
line of the fuselage or does it mount straight to centre line

2. horizontal stab fit, with my fin offset by 3/4" the front fin attach
bractet is now about 1/2" inch to the left of center, this now interferes
with the front horizontal stab mounting bracket about, you guesed it 1/2"
inch. the question here seems to be how far in towards the centre is the
horizontal stab bracket pulled ? i assume it should be flush with the
bulkhead it mounts to, or how close does the horizontal stab inner most rib
sit from the fuselage body ?

If you sight vertically then my stab inner most rib is flush with the
widest part of the fuselage at the bulkhead. The bolt that attaches the
stab to the bulkhead is 3.25" inboard from the widest part of the
bulkhead (and 2.75" lower than the very top of the bulkhead). Your
measurements are likely different but that's a general idea. The
distance between my stab inner rib and that attaching bolt hole is also
3.25" of course.

My bolt center is just over 3/4" from the closest corner of the bracket
that attaches the front of the rudder. That is on the closest side (left
side on mine) or the side that my rudder is offset on. It is closer than
I remembered but there is no conflict. The rear spar of my two stabs
form a straight line so no I didn't cheat ;)

3. according to the manual the horizontal stab should have 1 deg of positive
incidence, no one seems to recall this and when i checked it on an actual
rebel it did not appear to be there, any comments

OK be careful here. That is the forward edge of the stab one degree
higher than the rear edge of the stab (11/32" block). And note that is
11/32 (I used 5/16). It is NOT 11/16. We are more used to dealing with
16th of an inch than 32nds of an inch.

And my original manual says zero dihedral. That is the only thing that
you can easilly sight on a flying rebel. I don't believe there is any
way to tell if there is one degree of incidence by just looking.

4. in the chapter for mounting the horizontal stab we are instructed to
level the plane using the main carry throughs, i assume this means level in
pitch and roll axis, so the tail must go up into the air

Yes. See Richard's email.

thanx for all help

mike#007

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

#2..if your's is really that interfering Mike...trim it back and make a new
hole with the same edge distance as the original...remember only ONE bolt
per side or you turn that front spar into a cantilever beam..and that's not
what it's designed to be. Also do your self a favour and make something up
to hold both stabs in alignment at the rear spar, while you are locating the
front bolt hole. Easy to get them cockeyed...especially with your fin attach
off center and throwing you off. Measure from say your float point to the
outboard stab tip to check squareness.

#3 Manual does spell out 1 degree stab incidence with the cabin bottom
level. Do yourself a favour and make it 0.7 Degrees. That 0.3 will get rid
of the need for slight up elevator in normal flight.

#4 Yes cabin outer floor area level in fwd and side to side direction is
your "zero" point for wing dihedral and angle of incidence for stabs

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:23 AM
Subject: rebel tail alignment

hi all

mounting my horizontal stab and after sundays meeting have few questions
about the alignment of all the tail components so here goes

1.dorsal fin, my fin is off set 3/4" as per the manual, when i install
dorsal fin i assume it aligns with the fin at the same angle to the centre
line of the fuselage or does it mount straight to centre line

2. horizontal stab fit, with my fin offset by 3/4" the front fin attach
bractet is now about 1/2" inch to the left of center, this now interferes
with the front horizontal stab mounting bracket about, you guesed it 1/2"
inch. the question here seems to be how far in towards the centre is the
horizontal stab bracket pulled ? i assume it should be flush with the
bulkhead it mounts to, or how close does the horizontal stab inner most

rib

sit from the fuselage body ?

3. according to the manual the horizontal stab should have 1 deg of

positive

incidence, no one seems to recall this and when i checked it on an actual
rebel it did not appear to be there, any comments

4. in the chapter for mounting the horizontal stab we are instructed to
level the plane using the main carry throughs, i assume this means level

in

pitch and roll axis, so the tail must go up into the air

thanx for all help

mike#007

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[Jones, Michael]

hi wayne

this confims direction i was heading, good idea to align stabs, might not
work for me in single car garage, will have to move some stuff to basment,
any thoughts on the dorsal fin, align with fin or fuselage, i assume with
fin

mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:55 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rebel tail alignment


#2..if your's is really that interfering Mike...trim it back and make a new
hole with the same edge distance as the original...remember only ONE bolt
per side or you turn that front spar into a cantilever beam..and that's not
what it's designed to be. Also do your self a favour and make something up
to hold both stabs in alignment at the rear spar, while you are locating the
front bolt hole. Easy to get them cockeyed...especially with your fin attach
off center and throwing you off. Measure from say your float point to the
outboard stab tip to check squareness.

#3 Manual does spell out 1 degree stab incidence with the cabin bottom
level. Do yourself a favour and make it 0.7 Degrees. That 0.3 will get rid
of the need for slight up elevator in normal flight.

#4 Yes cabin outer floor area level in fwd and side to side direction is
your "zero" point for wing dihedral and angle of incidence for stabs

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:23 AM
Subject: rebel tail alignment

hi all

mounting my horizontal stab and after sundays meeting have few questions
about the alignment of all the tail components so here goes

1.dorsal fin, my fin is off set 3/4" as per the manual, when i install
dorsal fin i assume it aligns with the fin at the same angle to the centre
line of the fuselage or does it mount straight to centre line

2. horizontal stab fit, with my fin offset by 3/4" the front fin attach
bractet is now about 1/2" inch to the left of center, this now interferes
with the front horizontal stab mounting bracket about, you guesed it 1/2"
inch. the question here seems to be how far in towards the centre is the
horizontal stab bracket pulled ? i assume it should be flush with the
bulkhead it mounts to, or how close does the horizontal stab inner most

rib

sit from the fuselage body ?

3. according to the manual the horizontal stab should have 1 deg of

positive

incidence, no one seems to recall this and when i checked it on an actual
rebel it did not appear to be there, any comments

4. in the chapter for mounting the horizontal stab we are instructed to
level the plane using the main carry throughs, i assume this means level

in

pitch and roll axis, so the tail must go up into the air

thanx for all help

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient
of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,
copy or take any action with respect to it.

If you have received this message in error please notify
HATCH immediately via mailto:MailAdmin@hatch.ca.



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Would suggest that you want the dorsal fin straight in relation to the
fusleage. That 3/4" offset on the fin is already ?able. You sure dont' want
anymore offset surface..or you'll be holding left rudder all the time.
Others that have the dorsal fin on their Rebel please chime in! Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: rebel tail alignment

hi wayne

this confims direction i was heading, good idea to align stabs, might not
work for me in single car garage, will have to move some stuff to basment,
any thoughts on the dorsal fin, align with fin or fuselage, i assume with
fin

mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:55 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rebel tail alignment


#2..if your's is really that interfering Mike...trim it back and make a

new

hole with the same edge distance as the original...remember only ONE bolt
per side or you turn that front spar into a cantilever beam..and that's

not

what it's designed to be. Also do your self a favour and make something up
to hold both stabs in alignment at the rear spar, while you are locating

the

front bolt hole. Easy to get them cockeyed...especially with your fin

attach

off center and throwing you off. Measure from say your float point to the
outboard stab tip to check squareness.

#3 Manual does spell out 1 degree stab incidence with the cabin bottom
level. Do yourself a favour and make it 0.7 Degrees. That 0.3 will get rid
of the need for slight up elevator in normal flight.

#4 Yes cabin outer floor area level in fwd and side to side direction is
your "zero" point for wing dihedral and angle of incidence for stabs

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:23 AM
Subject: rebel tail alignment

hi all

mounting my horizontal stab and after sundays meeting have few questions
about the alignment of all the tail components so here goes

1.dorsal fin, my fin is off set 3/4" as per the manual, when i install
dorsal fin i assume it aligns with the fin at the same angle to the

centre

line of the fuselage or does it mount straight to centre line

2. horizontal stab fit, with my fin offset by 3/4" the front fin attach
bractet is now about 1/2" inch to the left of center, this now

interferes

with the front horizontal stab mounting bracket about, you guesed it

1/2"

inch. the question here seems to be how far in towards the centre is the
horizontal stab bracket pulled ? i assume it should be flush with the
bulkhead it mounts to, or how close does the horizontal stab inner most

rib

sit from the fuselage body ?

3. according to the manual the horizontal stab should have 1 deg of

positive

incidence, no one seems to recall this and when i checked it on an

actual

rebel it did not appear to be there, any comments

4. in the chapter for mounting the horizontal stab we are instructed to
level the plane using the main carry throughs, i assume this means level

in

pitch and roll axis, so the tail must go up into the air

thanx for all help

mike#007

----------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE - This message is the property of HATCH. It may also be
confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient
of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate,
copy or take any action with respect to it.

If you have received this message in error please notify
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[Walter Klatt]

Yes, I have a dorsal fin on my Rebel. The vertical fin is offset
3/4 inch, but from there forwards, the dorsal fin is straight.
Seems to work just fine for me.

Not sure if the Rebel needs a dorsal fin. I have never flown
without one, but have been told that it also flies just fine
without one on floats. If I was doing it again, would probably
leave it off.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 3:41 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rebel tail alignment


Would suggest that you want the dorsal fin straight in
relation to the
fusleage. That 3/4" offset on the fin is already
?able. You sure dont' want
anymore offset surface..or you'll be holding left
rudder all the time.
Others that have the dorsal fin on their Rebel please
chime in! Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: rebel tail alignment

hi wayne

this confims direction i was heading, good idea to

align stabs, might not

work for me in single car garage, will have to move

some stuff to basment,

any thoughts on the dorsal fin, align with fin or

fuselage, i assume with

fin

mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com

[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of

Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:55 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rebel tail alignment


#2..if your's is really that interfering Mike...trim

it back and make a
new

hole with the same edge distance as the

original...remember only ONE bolt

per side or you turn that front spar into a

cantilever beam..and that's
not

what it's designed to be. Also do your self a favour

and make something up

to hold both stabs in alignment at the rear spar,

while you are locating
the

front bolt hole. Easy to get them

cockeyed...especially with your fin
attach

off center and throwing you off. Measure from say

your float point to the

outboard stab tip to check squareness.

#3 Manual does spell out 1 degree stab incidence

with the cabin bottom

level. Do yourself a favour and make it 0.7 Degrees.

That 0.3 will get rid

of the need for slight up elevator in normal flight.

#4 Yes cabin outer floor area level in fwd and side

to side direction is

your "zero" point for wing dihedral and angle of

incidence for stabs

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)"

<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>

Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:23 AM
Subject: rebel tail alignment

hi all

mounting my horizontal stab and after sundays

meeting have few questions

about the alignment of all the tail components so here goes

1.dorsal fin, my fin is off set 3/4" as per the

manual, when i install

dorsal fin i assume it aligns with the fin at the

same angle to the
centre

line of the fuselage or does it mount straight to

centre line

2. horizontal stab fit, with my fin offset by 3/4"

the front fin attach

bractet is now about 1/2" inch to the left of

center, this now
interferes

with the front horizontal stab mounting bracket

about, you guesed it
1/2"

inch. the question here seems to be how far in

towards the centre is the

horizontal stab bracket pulled ? i assume it

should be flush with the

bulkhead it mounts to, or how close does the

horizontal stab inner most

rib

sit from the fuselage body ?

3. according to the manual the horizontal stab

should have 1 deg of

positive

incidence, no one seems to recall this and when i

checked it on an
actual

rebel it did not appear to be there, any comments

4. in the chapter for mounting the horizontal stab

we are instructed to

level the plane using the main carry throughs, i

assume this means level

in

pitch and roll axis, so the tail must go up into the air

thanx for all help

mike#007

-------------------------------------------------------
---------------

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It may also be

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the intended recipient

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must not disseminate,

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If you have received this message in error please notify
HATCH immediately via mailto:MailAdmin@hatch.ca.

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HATCH immediately via mailto:MailAdmin@hatch.ca.

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

FOKM flies fine without one ...as did Howard for about 5 summers before he
had me make up a removable ventral fin instead.

Some like the looks, some don't. Definitely should add some stability Mike,
but also adds more surface area for the x winds when on wheels.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: rebel tail alignment

Yes, I have a dorsal fin on my Rebel. The vertical fin is offset
3/4 inch, but from there forwards, the dorsal fin is straight.
Seems to work just fine for me.

Not sure if the Rebel needs a dorsal fin. I have never flown
without one, but have been told that it also flies just fine
without one on floats. If I was doing it again, would probably
leave it off.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 3:41 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rebel tail alignment


Would suggest that you want the dorsal fin straight in
relation to the
fusleage. That 3/4" offset on the fin is already
?able. You sure dont' want
anymore offset surface..or you'll be holding left
rudder all the time.
Others that have the dorsal fin on their Rebel please
chime in! Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: rebel tail alignment

hi wayne

this confims direction i was heading, good idea to

align stabs, might not

work for me in single car garage, will have to move

some stuff to basment,

any thoughts on the dorsal fin, align with fin or

fuselage, i assume with

fin

mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com

[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of

Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:55 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rebel tail alignment


#2..if your's is really that interfering Mike...trim

it back and make a
new

hole with the same edge distance as the

original...remember only ONE bolt

per side or you turn that front spar into a

cantilever beam..and that's
not

what it's designed to be. Also do your self a favour

and make something up

to hold both stabs in alignment at the rear spar,

while you are locating
the

front bolt hole. Easy to get them

cockeyed...especially with your fin
attach

off center and throwing you off. Measure from say

your float point to the

outboard stab tip to check squareness.

#3 Manual does spell out 1 degree stab incidence

with the cabin bottom

level. Do yourself a favour and make it 0.7 Degrees.

That 0.3 will get rid

of the need for slight up elevator in normal flight.

#4 Yes cabin outer floor area level in fwd and side

to side direction is

your "zero" point for wing dihedral and angle of

incidence for stabs

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)"

<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>

Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:23 AM
Subject: rebel tail alignment

meeting have few questions

manual, when i install

same angle to the
centre

centre line

the front fin attach

center, this now
interferes

about, you guesed it
1/2"

towards the centre is the

should be flush with the

horizontal stab inner most

rib

should have 1 deg of

positive

checked it on an
actual

we are instructed to

assume this means level

in

-------------------------------------------------------
---------------

It may also be

the intended recipient

must not disseminate,

-------------------------------------------------------
----------

https://www.dcsol.com/login?mode=HTML

-------------------------------------------------------
----------
-------------------------------------------------------
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[Schmucker, Del]

I have had mine both ways once with an offset and then later I changed
it being straight. This is both the dorsal fin and vertical stabilizer.
I couldn't really tell a difference either way. If you set it straight
it is very easy to either add a trim tab or add more rudder spring on a
side to control the yaw problem that the offset is for in the first
place.

Thank you,

Del Schmucker
Information Systems Manager
Keewatin-Patricia District School Board
807-223-1254
807-221-8769 Cell
807-223-4703 Fax
del.schmucker@kpdsb.on.ca
www.kpdsb.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:33 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rebel tail alignment

FOKM flies fine without one ...as did Howard for about 5 summers before
he
had me make up a removable ventral fin instead.

Some like the looks, some don't. Definitely should add some stability
Mike,
but also adds more surface area for the x winds when on wheels.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: rebel tail alignment

Yes, I have a dorsal fin on my Rebel. The vertical fin is offset
3/4 inch, but from there forwards, the dorsal fin is straight.
Seems to work just fine for me.

Not sure if the Rebel needs a dorsal fin. I have never flown
without one, but have been told that it also flies just fine
without one on floats. If I was doing it again, would probably
leave it off.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 3:41 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rebel tail alignment


Would suggest that you want the dorsal fin straight in
relation to the
fusleage. That 3/4" offset on the fin is already
?able. You sure dont' want
anymore offset surface..or you'll be holding left
rudder all the time.
Others that have the dorsal fin on their Rebel please
chime in! Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: rebel tail alignment

hi wayne

this confims direction i was heading, good idea to

align stabs, might not

work for me in single car garage, will have to move

some stuff to basment,

any thoughts on the dorsal fin, align with fin or

fuselage, i assume with

fin

mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com

[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of

Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:55 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rebel tail alignment


#2..if your's is really that interfering Mike...trim

it back and make a
new

hole with the same edge distance as the

original...remember only ONE bolt

per side or you turn that front spar into a

cantilever beam..and that's
not

what it's designed to be. Also do your self a favour

and make something up

to hold both stabs in alignment at the rear spar,

while you are locating
the

front bolt hole. Easy to get them

cockeyed...especially with your fin
attach

off center and throwing you off. Measure from say

your float point to the

outboard stab tip to check squareness.

#3 Manual does spell out 1 degree stab incidence

with the cabin bottom

level. Do yourself a favour and make it 0.7 Degrees.

That 0.3 will get rid

of the need for slight up elevator in normal flight.

#4 Yes cabin outer floor area level in fwd and side

to side direction is

your "zero" point for wing dihedral and angle of

incidence for stabs

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders EMIAL (E-mail)"

<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>

Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:23 AM
Subject: rebel tail alignment

meeting have few questions

manual, when i install

same angle to the
centre

centre line

the front fin attach

center, this now
interferes

about, you guesed it
1/2"

towards the centre is the

should be flush with the

horizontal stab inner most

rib

should have 1 deg of

positive

checked it on an
actual

we are instructed to

assume this means level

in

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[Legeorgen]

The vertical and dorsal fin on my Rebel is straight and it flies true. Grant
and Brian, from MAM, told me the engine mount is now offset to help
compensate for the left yaw at full power and setting the vertical of 3/4" is not
nesses anymore. I did what I was told and it seems to fly straight in cruise at
75%.

Bruce




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