M14 issues

[Nielsenbe]

I just started the moose kit so I am a few YEARS from firewall issues but I
have trying to get smarter before then. I have heard you can run autogas in
the M14.......... true or false. I also found this website and havn't seen it
mentioned here before so thought I would post it. It's for a three blade
composite prop for the M14.

<A HREF="http://www.whirlwindpropellers.com/html ... pellers</A>

<A HREF="http://www.whirlwindpropellers.com/html ... ries.shtml">
http://www.whirlwindpropellers.com/html ... eries.shtm

l</A>

I would prefer to use the LS1 the guys have been discussing and they will
definetly have all the engineering done on that by the time Iam ready........
thanks guys.

Brad
SR222



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[Steve Halvorsen]

Brad:

Are you building the complete kit or did you get the FAST BUILD.
Reason I'm asking is that we have serial # 213SR and will not get it until
JULY.
Ours is the fast build. The way things are going, you may finish before we
do.

Steve H
Moose 213SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Nielsenbe@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 2:03 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: M14 issues


I just started the moose kit so I am a few YEARS from firewall issues but I
have trying to get smarter before then. I have heard you can run autogas in
the M14.......... true or false. I also found this website and havn't seen
it
mentioned here before so thought I would post it. It's for a three blade
composite prop for the M14.

<A
HREF="http://www.whirlwindpropellers.com/html ... 0c-m14p_se
ries.shtml">whirlwindpropellers</A>

<A
HREF="http://www.whirlwindpropellers.com/html ... 0c-m14p_se
ries.shtml">
http://www.whirlwindpropellers.com/html ... p_series.s
htm

l</A>

I would prefer to use the LS1 the guys have been discussing and they will
definetly have all the engineering done on that by the time Iam
ready........
thanks guys.

Brad
SR222



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[Drew Dalgleish]

At 03:02 PM 5/7/2003 EDT, you wrote:

I just started the moose kit so I am a few YEARS from firewall issues but I
have trying to get smarter before then. I have heard you can run autogas in
the M14.......... true or false. I also found this website and havn't seen

it

mentioned here before so thought I would post it. It's for a three blade
composite prop for the M14.

I think the preferred prop with the acro guys is the MT prop. A buddy of
mine built a pitts model 12 and started with the russian 2 bladed prop then
switched to the MT composite 3 blade. The increase in performance was
amazing. I don't subscribe but I'm sure theres lots of info on M14P's and
props at the model 12 builders list archives or on the acro newsgroup. Try
checking out
http://gf24.de/pitts12/m12start.html
Drew Dalgleish




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[Nielsenbe]

Steve, I just got the normal tail. I figure I will get the fast wings and
fuse. I hope we both get done in a couple years.............. here in la la
land. brad



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[Nielsenbe]

I was just wondering if the prop was suitable for bush style flying I guess.
I don't see much aerobatics future for the moose but thier prop claimed the
best of everything. More climb, cruise and ......... obviously the questions
are better performance compared to what. Good product? I just saw that it
was made for the M14 just couldn't figure if the prop was suitable for the
mission of the moose. Sorry for the lack of knowledge to decide on my own.

Brad



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[KJKimball]

Group,

As Drew pointed out, the 3 blade props do produce more static thrust, better
climb rates and greater top and cruise speeds than the V-530 2 blade prop.
This is different from the 2 blade vs. 3 blade prop on other aircraft engines
where the 2 blade usually out performs the 3 blade.

In the case of the M14P. The V-530 2 blade prop is inefficient as compared to
the many 3 blade props that are out there for the M14P/PF. The 530 is too
short, has thick blades, and has those big square tips which produce huge tip
vortices.

The 94" dia. V-530 prop produced 1320lb of static thrust in our tests. The
98" dia Whirl Wind 400MP produced 1550lb. The 98" dia MT MTV9 with -27
blades produced 1560lb. The 96" Hoffman produced 1530lb.

Based on these tests, we selected the WW and MT for the model 12. We used
the WW on our first model 12 and found it to really pull well yet we had
difficulty getting it balanced to minimize vibration at cruise speeds. Also,
the WW would not pull the rpm below 1900rpm even after making various
adjustments. I understand thisi problem was later corrected.

We installed the MT 1 yr. later and found the vibration levels to be near
zero, increased top and cruise speed at given power settings and increased
fuel economy as the MT could reduce rpm to recommended levels.

I understand George Coy has worked with Hartzell to produce a 3 blade all
alum blade for the M14. This is a great choice for those who want to go on
water.

The WW 400C-M14P prop is currently listed as
"...** Currently under development, Release date TBD **..."
It was my understanding at SNF this year that there was no schedule for
tooling production and blade production as of April. The WW 400 prop we used
is no longer produced as it was a wood core composite covered blade. The
400C series is all carbon fiber hollow core blades.

If a lighter, composite prop is what you prefer, the MT is a great choice and
as a matter of fact, they recently began shipping M14P/PF props with a new
blade design -29 blades that gave the sukhoi SU31 test airplane 11 knots
greater top speed, 8 knts added cruise speed, 330ft greater vertical
penetration etc. MT also has a new hub available for the M14P with the
serrated flange which fits the engine directly rather than needing an
adapter.

If any of you have questions on Mt props, feel free to contact me directly.
If you want more info on the new all aluminum Hartzell, contact George Coy.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
www.jimkimballenterprises.com




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[Drew Dalgleish]

At 05:05 AM 5/8/2003 EDT, you wrote:

I was just wondering if the prop was suitable for bush style flying I guess.
I don't see much aerobatics future for the moose but thier prop claimed the
best of everything. More climb, cruise and ......... obviously the questions
are better performance compared to what. Good product? I just saw that it
was made for the M14 just couldn't figure if the prop was suitable for the
mission of the moose. Sorry for the lack of knowledge to decide on my own.

Brad

Don't apologise Brad thats what this list is for gain as much knowledge as
you can and avoid the mistakes builders before you made. All these new
props are very expensive ( probably more than the engine) and you should do
your homework on this as I'm sure you only want to buy one prop. If you're
planning for floats you should also ask if any of them can have a beta
position.
Drew Dalgleish




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[George Coy]

Our experience with the Yak-52 and Yak-55 is that when we removed a two
blade Russian prop and installed a three blade MT we saw a three to five
knot decrease in indicated airspeed at the same power settings. We also saw
a significant increase in the climb rate and vertical performance. Typically
on a Yak 52 the vertical line will be about 900 ft. longer with the 3 blade
MT over the two blade Vperiod.
George Coy SR154

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
KJKimball@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:46 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: M14 issues

Group,

As Drew pointed out, the 3 blade props do produce more static thrust, better
climb rates and greater top and cruise speeds than the V-530 2 blade prop.
This is different from the 2 blade vs. 3 blade prop on other aircraft
engines
where the 2 blade usually out performs the 3 blade.

In the case of the M14P. The V-530 2 blade prop is inefficient as compared
to
the many 3 blade props that are out there for the M14P/PF. The 530 is too
short, has thick blades, and has those big square tips which produce huge
tip
vortices.

The 94" dia. V-530 prop produced 1320lb of static thrust in our tests. The
98" dia Whirl Wind 400MP produced 1550lb. The 98" dia MT MTV9 with -27
blades produced 1560lb. The 96" Hoffman produced 1530lb.

Based on these tests, we selected the WW and MT for the model 12. We used
the WW on our first model 12 and found it to really pull well yet we had
difficulty getting it balanced to minimize vibration at cruise speeds.
Also,
the WW would not pull the rpm below 1900rpm even after making various
adjustments. I understand thisi problem was later corrected.

We installed the MT 1 yr. later and found the vibration levels to be near
zero, increased top and cruise speed at given power settings and increased
fuel economy as the MT could reduce rpm to recommended levels.

I understand George Coy has worked with Hartzell to produce a 3 blade all
alum blade for the M14. This is a great choice for those who want to go on
water.

The WW 400C-M14P prop is currently listed as
"...** Currently under development, Release date TBD **..."
It was my understanding at SNF this year that there was no schedule for
tooling production and blade production as of April. The WW 400 prop we used
is no longer produced as it was a wood core composite covered blade. The
400C series is all carbon fiber hollow core blades.

If a lighter, composite prop is what you prefer, the MT is a great choice
and
as a matter of fact, they recently began shipping M14P/PF props with a new
blade design -29 blades that gave the sukhoi SU31 test airplane 11 knots
greater top speed, 8 knts added cruise speed, 330ft greater vertical
penetration etc. MT also has a new hub available for the M14P with the
serrated flange which fits the engine directly rather than needing an
adapter.

If any of you have questions on Mt props, feel free to contact me directly.
If you want more info on the new all aluminum Hartzell, contact George Coy.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone
407-889-7168 fax
www.jimkimballenterprises.com




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[Warren Montgomery]

The MT prop has Beta.
This prop is already in use on airships.
About 6,000 USD more then the standard MT which is ~ 12,000 USD.
Need to price this agains reskinning a set of floats.......
The Kimballs I'm sure can provide exact numbers.
Warren

Drew Dalgleish wrote:
If you're planning for floats you should also ask if any of them can
have a beta




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