non-symetrical fuel tanks

[Mike Davis]

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Hi
Does anybody have any regrets or opinions on non-symetrical fuel tanks.
After
much thought and waffling I am about to commit to two bays of fuel in the
left
wing. I put the normal 3 bays in the right wing. This is more than enough
fuel
for my Subaru Legacy powered Rebel (probably 6 or so gph) but I am a little
concerned about the imbalance. Bobp mentioned once that some builders with
the
Rotax engine were going with one bay on the left and two bays on the right.
The
imbalance will costantly reduce as fuel is burned (assumining feeding from
both
tanks)...
As always, any comments are appreciated!
Ken R119



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[Mike Davis]

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Subject: Re: non-symetrical fuel tanks
From: "Dan Morehouse" <dan.morehouse@netos.com>
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Why would you do this?

Dan

----------

From: klehman@albedo.net
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: non-symetrical fuel tanks
Date: Sun, Jan 24, 1999, 10:06 PM

Hi
Does anybody have any regrets or opinions on non-symetrical fuel tanks.

After

much thought and waffling I am about to commit to two bays of fuel in the

left

wing. I put the normal 3 bays in the right wing. This is more than enough

fuel

for my Subaru Legacy powered Rebel (probably 6 or so gph) but I am a

little

concerned about the imbalance. Bobp mentioned once that some builders with

the

Rotax engine were going with one bay on the left and two bays on the

right.
The

imbalance will costantly reduce as fuel is burned (assumining feeding from

both

tanks)...
As always, any comments are appreciated!
Ken R119

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[Mike Davis]

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I can't speak from having done that but I always draw down my left tank in
my Maule
when flying alone (that is most of the time) to counter balance my sitting
on the
left side of center. Of course when both tanks get low then my weight is
again an
imbalance left of center.

jar

klehman@albedo.net wrote:

Hi
Does anybody have any regrets or opinions on non-symetrical fuel tanks.

After

much thought and waffling I am about to commit to two bays of fuel in the

left

wing. I put the normal 3 bays in the right wing. This is more than enough

fuel

for my Subaru Legacy powered Rebel (probably 6 or so gph) but I am a

little

concerned about the imbalance. Bobp mentioned once that some builders with

the

Rotax engine were going with one bay on the left and two bays on the

right. The

imbalance will costantly reduce as fuel is burned (assumining feeding from

both

tanks)...
As always, any comments are appreciated!
Ken R119

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[Mike Davis]

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See my note to Ken.

jar

Dan Morehouse wrote:

Why would you do this?

Dan

----------

From: klehman@albedo.net
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: non-symetrical fuel tanks
Date: Sun, Jan 24, 1999, 10:06 PM

Hi
Does anybody have any regrets or opinions on non-symetrical fuel tanks.

After

much thought and waffling I am about to commit to two bays of fuel in

the left

wing. I put the normal 3 bays in the right wing. This is more than

enough fuel

for my Subaru Legacy powered Rebel (probably 6 or so gph) but I am a

little

concerned about the imbalance. Bobp mentioned once that some builders

with the

Rotax engine were going with one bay on the left and two bays on the

right.

The

imbalance will costantly reduce as fuel is burned (assumining feeding

from

both

tanks)...
As always, any comments are appreciated!
Ken R119

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[Mike Davis]

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Hi Dan
Just to reduce weight. If you leave the tanks half full all the time they
tend
to collect more condensation. Eventually I plan to put it on floats where
weight
will be a concern. Probably should have only used two bays in each wing.

Dan Morehouse wrote:

Why would you do this?

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[Mike Davis]

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As a pilot you are always on one side, and most of us weigh more than 15 or
so
gallons of fuel. I would not worry about it . It is a different subject
though and I was getting bored with reading about the spring gear fiasco.

[Mike Davis]

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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
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Thats fine I wont bother you again

Alister

----------

From: REBEL112R@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: non-symetrical fuel tanks
Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 2:32 PM

As a pilot you are always on one side, and most of us weigh more than 15

or so

gallons of fuel. I would not worry about it . It is a different subject
though and I was getting bored with reading about the spring gear fiasco.

[Mike Davis]

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If I remember correctly, 15 gal of fuel would weigh 90 lbs. Ninety pounds
about 3
ft. out on the wing should just about equal my 180 lbs about one foot to the
left
of center. Not quite your usual fore and aft weight and balance but let us
say
side to side weight and balance.

jar

REBEL112R@aol.com wrote:

As a pilot you are always on one side, and most of us weigh more than 15

or so

gallons of fuel. I would not worry about it . It is a different subject
though and I was getting bored with reading about the spring gear fiasco.

[Mike Davis]

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: non-symetrical fuel tanks
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:17:57 -0500


There are several Rebels with smaller tanks on the left - it DOES help
with the balance. Also, you aren't carrying around 50 lb of unneeded
(mostly) fuel ...

I flew a Rebel from BC to Ontario that only had ONE 3 bay tank
on the right - it was ok, but a little awkward taxiing with 2 people &
baggage aboard with the tank full ! (It leaned !!)
No problem in flight, and fine when solo. The weight of the fuel
is not a BIG problem, but it IS more comfortable if you balance a bit.
I usually run the left tank down a bit first, then switch to right,
and back - always keeping more on right until just an emergency bit
left in the left side... It is more comfortable on cruise - the ailerons
aren't heavy, but it's surprising how annoying it gets after a couple of
hours holding one wing up - I usually travel XC 'hands-off' !!

The easy solution for this is a small bungee cord attached to
the bottom of the torque tube, and wrapped around the stick. You slide
it up the stick to increase pull to the right, and down for less ...


.....bobp

-----------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 05:06 PM 1/24/99 -0500, you wrote:

Hi
Does anybody have any regrets or opinions on non-symetrical fuel tanks.

After

much thought and waffling I am about to commit to two bays of fuel in the

left

wing. I put the normal 3 bays in the right wing. This is more than enough

fuel

for my Subaru Legacy powered Rebel (probably 6 or so gph) but I am a little
concerned about the imbalance. Bobp mentioned once that some builders with

the

Rotax engine were going with one bay on the left and two bays on the right.

The

imbalance will costantly reduce as fuel is burned (assumining feeding from

both

tanks)...
As always, any comments are appreciated!
Ken R119

[Mike Davis]

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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:12:51 +0400
From: "Warren T. Montgomery" <monty@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: Re: non-symetrical fuel tanks
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
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Reference the the inflight aerodynamic balance, I'm considering installing
an
electric trim (MAC 4A)
for aileron trim. I will be installing electric trim for rudder when I get
around to
retrofitting.
Question; will the rudder trim by itself be able to take care of a heavy
wing
problem?
I'm thinking maybe I won't need both units. I don't have any experience in
light a/c
(engine torque) in this regard.
We trim out the big jets by using rudder only keeping the bank within 11/2
degrees
to zero the ailerons and minimize drag.

--
Warren T. Montgomery
SR 029
<monty@emirates.net.ae>
Dubai, United Arab Emirates







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[Mike Davis]

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Subject: Re: non-symetrical fuel tanks
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One hazard of electric trim is the potential for a runaway trim as a failure
mode. For a bush plane, keeping things as simple as possible has its
merits.
Bob Patterson's suggestion of using a bungee to help relieve the aileron
inbalance
is simple and has a benign failure mode. When I flew the Elite demonstrtor
it was out of trim for some reason and Robin used the bungee trick. It was
simple
and very effective, though a little hokey looking!

Reference the the inflight aerodynamic balance, I'm considering installing

an

electric trim (MAC 4A)
for aileron trim. I will be installing electric trim for rudder when I get

around to

retrofitting.
Question; will the rudder trim by itself be able to take care of a heavy

wing

problem?
I'm thinking maybe I won't need both units. I don't have any experience in

light a/c

(engine torque) in this regard.
We trim out the big jets by using rudder only keeping the bank within 11/2

degrees

to zero the ailerons and minimize drag.

--
Warren T. Montgomery
SR 029
<monty@emirates.net.ae>
Dubai, United Arab Emirates

[Mike Davis]

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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:41:57 +0400
From: "Warren T. Montgomery" <monty@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: Re: non-symetrical fuel tanks
To: chas@wa.freei.net
Cc: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
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Thanks Chuck,
I know that you'e going with the rudder trim. Do you think you can use this
for
trimming out the wings? (I'm from the fly-by-wire, EFIS generation)

Charles Skorupa wrote:

One hazard of electric trim is the potential for a runaway trim as a

failure

mode. For a bush plane, keeping things as simple as possible has its

merits.

Bob Patterson's suggestion of using a bungee to help relieve the aileron

inbalance

is simple and has a benign failure mode. When I flew the Elite

demonstrtor

it was out of trim for some reason and Robin used the bungee trick. It was

simple

and very effective, though a little hokey looking!

Reference the the inflight aerodynamic balance, I'm considering

installing

an

electric trim (MAC 4A)
for aileron trim. I will be installing electric trim for rudder when I

get

around to

retrofitting.
Question; will the rudder trim by itself be able to take care of a heavy

wing

problem?
I'm thinking maybe I won't need both units. I don't have any experience

in

light a/c

(engine torque) in this regard.
We trim out the big jets by using rudder only keeping the bank within

11/2

degrees

to zero the ailerons and minimize drag.

--
Warren T. Montgomery
SR 029
<monty@emirates.net.ae>
Dubai, United Arab Emirates

--
Warren T. Montgomery
<monty@emirates.net.ae>
Dubai, United Arab Emirates





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Subject: Re: non-symetrical fuel tanks
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My Cherokee uses a simple knob for rudder trim. I think it just applies
spring
tension to the rudder pedals or associated mechanism. Kind of a fancy
bungee
in disguise. It helps trim out the plane to fly straight for hands free
flight
or during a long climb or descent. It has the downside that anything that
can
be adjusted is usually not set where you want it most of the time. I think
that may fool me into thinking how nice it is to have rudder trim to help
straighten
the plane out, when in truth if I didn't have rudder trim (most light planes
don't), I probably wouldn't need to undo a previous setting because the
airplane
is naturally trimmed to fly straight as a normal condition if you rested you
feet flat on the floor and let go of the stick!
For now, on my Rebel-to-be, my intent is to use the supplied electric
elevator
trim only for pitch trim and be sure I have a pull-out circuit breaker and
the
ability to control a fully deflected elevator trim tab with the main
elevator
in the event of a runaway trim motor. There have been more than one fatal
accident
in other planes over the years because of a runaway elevator trim control
happening
at the wrong time.
I intend to control roll and yaw by load redistribution (fuel, payload),
spring
or bungee biasing, or fixed trim tabs (yuk) as a last resort. I think I
would
experiment with reshaping the aileron or rudder trailing edge radius before
I would add tabs to reduce drag and look better.

- Chuck -

Thanks Chuck,
I know that you'e going with the rudder trim. Do you think you can use this

for

trimming out the wings? (I'm from the fly-by-wire, EFIS generation)

Charles Skorupa wrote:

One hazard of electric trim is the potential for a runaway trim as a

failure

mode. For a bush plane, keeping things as simple as possible has its

merits.

Bob Patterson's suggestion of using a bungee to help relieve the aileron

inbalance

is simple and has a benign failure mode. When I flew the Elite

demonstrtor

it was out of trim for some reason and Robin used the bungee trick. It

was
simple

and very effective, though a little hokey looking!

Reference the the inflight aerodynamic balance, I'm considering

installing

an

electric trim (MAC 4A)
for aileron trim. I will be installing electric trim for rudder when I

get

around to

retrofitting.
Question; will the rudder trim by itself be able to take care of a heavy

wing

problem?
I'm thinking maybe I won't need both units. I don't have any experience

in

light a/c

(engine torque) in this regard.
We trim out the big jets by using rudder only keeping the bank within

11/2

degrees

to zero the ailerons and minimize drag.

--
Warren T. Montgomery
SR 029
<monty@emirates.net.ae>
Dubai, United Arab Emirates

--
Warren T. Montgomery
<monty@emirates.net.ae>
Dubai, United Arab Emirates

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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:59:34 -0800
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To: " (Murphy Rebel)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: non-symetrical fuel tanks
References: <05004421501208@dcsol.com> <36ADDB73.D18DBBF1@emirates.net.ae>
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I have a selector switch on my Rebel that selects tanks. I have never
noticed an
inflight balance problem in any way shape or form when I drain one tank,
either one, and
then switch to the other. I also considered trim, but after flying for the
last few
years it's "why". It doesn't appear to be needed. If the airplane is
rigged right it
maintains straight and level with no effort whatsoever. The fuel balance
doesn't appear
to affect it either.

Just my opinion
Dave Bangle

"Warren T. Montgomery" wrote:

Reference the the inflight aerodynamic balance, I'm considering

installing an

electric trim (MAC 4A)
for aileron trim. I will be installing electric trim for rudder when I get

around to

retrofitting.
Question; will the rudder trim by itself be able to take care of a heavy

wing

problem?
I'm thinking maybe I won't need both units. I don't have any experience in

light a/c

(engine torque) in this regard.
We trim out the big jets by using rudder only keeping the bank within 11/2

degrees

to zero the ailerons and minimize drag.

--
Warren T. Montgomery
SR 029
<monty@emirates.net.ae>
Dubai, United Arab Emirates

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[Mike Davis]

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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:08:47 EST
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
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Subject: Re: non-symetrical fuel tanks
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Warren, I used a mac 4 for my ail trim in my SR but it will still a couple
of
months befor i'll be able to try it out.
Les Vincent SR024



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