Engine choice

Mike Davis · Post by **Mike Davis** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:52 pm

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From: "Charles Skorupa" <Chas@wa.freei.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Engine choice
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:51:26 -0800
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I wonder what the numbers would be for the factory 0-360 Elite with =
amphib floats (flown by Robin at Murphy) that outperformed a Supercub on =
straight floats in a competiion at Oskosh last year? The numbers you =
show for an 0-320 Rebel in your chart are for amphib floats, With =
straight floats if I change the cell entry in your spreadsheet from 230# =
to 166 #, the number comes up as 21.1!! If I add 20 lbs to the engine =
weight for an 0-360 and another 20 lb for a heavier Elite (sans =
nosewheel) and change the HP to 180, I the spreadsheet comes up with =
20.4 on straight floats and 21.2 on amphib floats. No wonder Robin beat =
the Supercub (21.6). =20

As long as we are dreaming, the 200 HP 0-360 calculation for a Rebel =
Elite rates 19.5 on straight floats. Even at a max recommended =
floatplane gross weight of 1943# the number would be 22.4 with one heck =
of a payload. =20

Thanks for posting the spreadsheet. Hope I didn't misinterpret it. =
Makes for great hanger flying fantacies. And, as always, your mileage =
may vary.=20

- Chuck Skorupa -
-----Original Message-----
From: Cami Kucera <cpkucera@idirect.com>
To: Rebel Builders <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 7:34 PM
Subject: Engine choice
=20
=20
Hello fellow Rebel builders/flyers. I'm a slow (but determined) =
builder in Streetsville Ontario. I am fighting with the idea of building =
this lightweight craft and than hanging a 300+pound thirsty monster on =
the firewall to take my floats of the water some day.=20
I have played with the wing and powerloading figures and came up =
with the attached chart (use Excel 5 or higher).=20
A good performing small seaplane should have a combined wing and =
power loading equal to 25 or less (30 or less for small land plane). A =
Cessna 172 seaplane with 180 hp at 2220 lbs has a total loading of 25. =
150 hp SuperCub with floats: 21.6!!! Wow! (I trained on a 160 hp Cessna =
172 seaplane and it performed OK with 2 people, total loading at 2220 =
lbs: 26.6).=20
I know drag is a factor here as well. Not sure how clean the Rebel =
is compared to the Cessna (all those rivet bumps on the wing must =
interfere a bit).=20
Anyway, you can plug in your own numbers for pilot, passenger etc. =
and see how it comes out.=20
All I need now is a lottery ticket to get me the 914 or the 912S. =
(Anyone with Hirth F30 experience? )
Happy building. Paul Kucera, 453R=20

------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BE3F47.4073A060
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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1700"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>I wonder what the =
numbers would be=20
for the factory 0-360 Elite with amphib floats (flown by Robin at =
Murphy) that=20
outperformed a Supercub on straight floats in a competiion at Oskosh =
last=20
year?  The numbers you show for an 0-320 Rebel in your chart are =
for amphib=20
floats,  With straight floats if I change the cell entry in your=20
spreadsheet from 230# to 166 #, the number comes up as 21.1!!  If I =
add 20=20
lbs to the engine weight for an 0-360 and another 20 lb for a heavier =
Elite=20
(sans nosewheel)   and change the HP to 180, I the spreadsheet =
comes=20
up with 20.4 on straight floats and 21.2 on amphib floats. No wonder =
Robin beat=20
the Supercub (21.6).  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>As long as we are =
dreaming, the 200=20
HP 0-360 calculation for a Rebel Elite rates 19.5 on straight =
floats.  Even=20
at a max recommended floatplane gross weight of 1943# the number would =
be 22.4=20
with one heck of a payload.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for posting the=20
spreadsheet.  Hope I didn't misinterpret it.  Makes for great =
hanger=20
flying fantacies.  And, as always, your mileage may=20
vary. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>    - =
Chuck Skorupa=20
-</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>Cami Kucera <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:cpkucera@idirect.com">cpkucera@idirect.com</A>><BR><B>T=
o:=20
</B>Rebel Builders <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com">murphy-rebel@dcsol.com</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
</B>Wednesday, January 13, 1999 7:34 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Engine=20
choice<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello fellow Rebel =
builders/flyers. I'm a=20
slow (but determined) builder in Streetsville Ontario. I am fighting =
with=20
the idea of building this lightweight craft and than hanging a =
300+pound=20
thirsty monster on the firewall to take my floats of the water some=20
day. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>I have=20
played with the wing and powerloading figures and came up with the =
attached=20
chart (use Excel 5 or higher). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>A good performing small seaplane =
should have=20
a combined wing and power loading equal to 25 or less (30 or less =
for small=20
land plane). A Cessna 172 seaplane with 180 hp at 2220 lbs has a =
total=20
loading of 25. 150 hp SuperCub with floats: 21.6!!! Wow! (I trained =
on a 160=20
hp Cessna 172 seaplane and it performed OK with 2 people, total =
loading at=20
2220 lbs: 26.6). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I know drag is a factor here as =
well. Not=20
sure how clean the Rebel is compared to the Cessna (all those rivet =
bumps on=20
the wing must interfere a bit). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Anyway, you can plug in your own =
numbers for=20
pilot, passenger etc. and see how it comes out. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>All I need now is a lottery =
ticket to get me=20
the 914 or the 912S. (Anyone with Hirth F30 experience? =
)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Happy building. Paul Kucera, =
453R=20
</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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mbetti · Post by **mbetti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:28 am

I am starting to look at engine choices for my Elite. I was thinking 180 lycoming or maybe a 150. I might buy a midtime or rebuildable core. How do I find out which models to search for and the prop requirement? I emailed MAM but got no response. Does MAM supply the engine mount and cowel? I was going to source the FWF here and there. Is there anything else I should be getting from MAM?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
Elite 771

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Jones, Michael · Post by **Jones, Michael** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:28 am

MIKE

having just gone through this for my rebel, there is posting on site of an
elite firewall forward parts list, source the stuff yourself its alot
cheaper, make your own 4 door cowl,some stuff from vans, pics are on
website, engine you got to find yourself as well

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
mbetti@up.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:41 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Engine choice

I am starting to look at engine choices for my Elite. I was thinking 180
lycoming or maybe a 150. I might buy a midtime or rebuildable core. How do I
find out which models to search for and the prop requirement? I emailed MAM
but got no response. Does MAM supply the engine mount and cowel? I was going
to source the FWF here and there. Is there anything else I should be getting
from MAM?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
Elite 771

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Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:28 am

Mike,
I'm not having much luck finding that FWF list, maybe you can lead me? Also,
how do you go about making a 4 door cowel? Is there some sort of pattern out
there or is it scratch built from ? metal? fglass?
Thanks,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:53 PM
Subject: RE: Engine choice

MIKE

having just gone through this for my rebel, there is posting on site of an
elite firewall forward parts list, source the stuff yourself its alot
cheaper, make your own 4 door cowl,some stuff from vans, pics are on
website, engine you got to find yourself as well

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
mbetti@up.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:41 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Engine choice

I am starting to look at engine choices for my Elite. I was thinking 180
lycoming or maybe a 150. I might buy a midtime or rebuildable core. How do

I

find out which models to search for and the prop requirement? I emailed

MAM

but got no response. Does MAM supply the engine mount and cowel? I was

going

to source the FWF here and there. Is there anything else I should be

getting

from MAM?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
Elite 771

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Jones, Michael · Post by **Jones, Michael** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:28 am

hi mike

fwf list for elite is under elite section under miscellaneous, there is scan
and pdf documents
cowl is metal and build your own, lots of pics under rebel cowl, but its
make your own

hope this helps

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Mike Betti
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:01 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Engine choice

Mike,
I'm not having much luck finding that FWF list, maybe you can lead me? Also,
how do you go about making a 4 door cowel? Is there some sort of pattern out
there or is it scratch built from ? metal? fglass?
Thanks,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:53 PM
Subject: RE: Engine choice

MIKE

having just gone through this for my rebel, there is posting on site of an
elite firewall forward parts list, source the stuff yourself its alot
cheaper, make your own 4 door cowl,some stuff from vans, pics are on
website, engine you got to find yourself as well

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
mbetti@up.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:41 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Engine choice

I am starting to look at engine choices for my Elite. I was thinking 180
lycoming or maybe a 150. I might buy a midtime or rebuildable core. How do

I

find out which models to search for and the prop requirement? I emailed

MAM

but got no response. Does MAM supply the engine mount and cowel? I was

going

to source the FWF here and there. Is there anything else I should be

getting

from MAM?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
Elite 771

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Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:28 am

MAM used to (still does?) sell a metal cowl kit and they do have a
section in my manual on building it. 4' x 8' sheet of 0.020 aluminum,
piano hinge, nose bowl, some pieces of angle, nutplates,bolts, etc.
Nothing you can't duplicate if you have access to a brake. I haven't
looked recently but I presume MAM is not that interested in selling
extras though or you'd expect to see them listed on the web site in
'plane' view!
Ken

Jones, Michael wrote:

hi mike

fwf list for elite is under elite section under miscellaneous, there is scan
and pdf documents

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british thunder · Post by **british thunder** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:28 am

Hi all
I should be doing final assembly in 2 weeks and flying in 2 1/2 weeks back
on floats.
Thanks for all the help along the way.

I currently have a "speed "cowl off a o320 rebel for sale cheep if any one
is interested, It's not in bad shape.
may have a Warp Drive 3 blade nickel plated prop in a couple of weeks too it
is complete with new blades ( still in box) and new spinner.
call at 905 277 5108
or at britishthunder@sympatico .ca
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:53 PM
Subject: RE: Engine choice

MIKE

having just gone through this for my rebel, there is posting on site of an
elite firewall forward parts list, source the stuff yourself its alot
cheaper, make your own 4 door cowl,some stuff from vans, pics are on
website, engine you got to find yourself as well

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
mbetti@up.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:41 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Engine choice

I am starting to look at engine choices for my Elite. I was thinking 180
lycoming or maybe a 150. I might buy a midtime or rebuildable core. How do

I

find out which models to search for and the prop requirement? I emailed

MAM

but got no response. Does MAM supply the engine mount and cowel? I was

going

to source the FWF here and there. Is there anything else I should be

getting

from MAM?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
Elite 771

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Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:28 am

Thanks,
Found it......

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 6:18 AM
Subject: RE: Engine choice

hi mike

fwf list for elite is under elite section under miscellaneous, there is

scan

and pdf documents
cowl is metal and build your own, lots of pics under rebel cowl, but its
make your own

hope this helps

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Mike Betti
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:01 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Engine choice

Mike,
I'm not having much luck finding that FWF list, maybe you can lead me?

Also,

how do you go about making a 4 door cowel? Is there some sort of pattern

out

there or is it scratch built from ? metal? fglass?
Thanks,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <MJones@hatch.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 1:53 PM
Subject: RE: Engine choice

MIKE

having just gone through this for my rebel, there is posting on site of

an

elite firewall forward parts list, source the stuff yourself its alot
cheaper, make your own 4 door cowl,some stuff from vans, pics are on
website, engine you got to find yourself as well

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
mbetti@up.net
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:41 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Engine choice

I am starting to look at engine choices for my Elite. I was thinking 180
lycoming or maybe a 150. I might buy a midtime or rebuildable core. How

do

I
find out which models to search for and the prop requirement? I emailed
MAM
but got no response. Does MAM supply the engine mount and cowel? I was
going
to source the FWF here and there. Is there anything else I should be
getting
from MAM?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
Elite 771

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brad · Post by **brad** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:59 am

Morning All,

With all this talk about bigger and more power engines I'm inerested
in some opinions for my Rebel.

I may have a chance to pick up a good 115 HP engine. I am still a few years
away from floats and with gas prices what they are I'm tempted. I am doing all
the O-320 mods so changing in the future won't be a big deal.

So,,, rather than going bigger and faster is any one flying their Rebels with
a 115 HP? Happy or Not?

Thanks,

Brad (R195)

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Bob Patterson · Post by **Bob Patterson** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:59 am

Hi Brad !

<ALL> the O-320 mods ??!!! DON'T move the firewall back 3",
or you will be stuck with an O-320 !!!

If you leave the firewall where it belongs, you can use all
the engine choices - from the 912 up !

Also, don't buy the engine until you are within a couple of
months of mounting it ! They don't keep well !! ;-)
(Actually, there are several good reasons to wait - besides possible
corrosion and factory A/D's on a pickled engine. New engines are
coming along, and, with gas prices, old engines just might come
down in price considerably ! ) Old O-235's are cheap anyway -
in the $4K - $6K range usually)

We owned an O-235 Rebel for over 7 years, even flew it on
Murphy 1500 amphibs - across Canada ! It's an adequate setup,
bit underpowered on floats, unless you get an -L2C or -N2C, with
10 extra horses.... Again, all depends what you want to do !

During the same time, we also had a Rebel with a Rotax 912,
80 hp. . LOVED it ! Lighter than the O-235, so took off quicker,
and climbed better, lightly loaded. It also cruised slightly
(5+ mph) faster, on about 1/2 the fuel. We flew it on Murphy 1500
straight floats - performed very well !

The BIG difference was maintenance costs - the Lyc. had:
2 cylinders, a carb, a mag, an exhaust system, and spark plugs, etc.,
while the Rotax had 8 sets of spark plugs, 2 air filters,
and regular oil changes at 50 hours, for over 1,000 hours of trouble-free
cheap flying !! :-) Get in, turn the key, and go flying ! :-)

Tom Inglis flew his 912 Rebel into Oshkosh this year, from
Wingham, Ontario. He first flew it at least 3 years ago, and is quite
happy with it. It was on display in the Murphy booth, and attracted
a LOT of interest. (It qualifies for the Sport Plane category !!!) :-)

.....bop

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 06 September 2005 10:34 am, brad@dcsol.com wrote:

Morning All,

With all this talk about bigger and more power engines I'm inerested
in some opinions for my Rebel.

I may have a chance to pick up a good 115 HP engine. I am still a few

years

away from floats and with gas prices what they are I'm tempted. I am doing

all

the O-320 mods so changing in the future won't be a big deal.

So,,, rather than going bigger and faster is any one flying their Rebels

with

a 115 HP? Happy or Not?

Thanks,

Brad (R195)

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Aurele Lavigne · Post by **Aurele Lavigne** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:59 am

Bob, been reading with interest. If my pocket book permitted, I too would go
with Pierre's setup, sounds pretty impressive.

I've been flying mine, 912 on floats for 7 years and I'm very pleased for
the type of flying I do. So far I have done all I can do to maximize
performance, added Fife tips, Ivoprop in-flight adjustable prop and next
thing going in this fall is the airbox now a standard for the 80hp also. A
friend recently purchased a Rebel with 912-S on full lotus floats and I'm
scheduled to go to Sudbury on the 19th to try it out.

I will be recording take-off and cruise performance to make a comparison
with mine. If this turns out the way I think it will, I too will be
considering the 912-S in the not too distant future.

Aurele

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: Engine Choice

Hi Brad !

<ALL> the O-320 mods ??!!! DON'T move the firewall back 3",
or you will be stuck with an O-320 !!!

If you leave the firewall where it belongs, you can use all
the engine choices - from the 912 up !

Also, don't buy the engine until you are within a couple of
months of mounting it ! They don't keep well !! ;-)
(Actually, there are several good reasons to wait - besides possible
corrosion and factory A/D's on a pickled engine. New engines are
coming along, and, with gas prices, old engines just might come
down in price considerably ! ) Old O-235's are cheap anyway -
in the $4K - $6K range usually)

We owned an O-235 Rebel for over 7 years, even flew it on
Murphy 1500 amphibs - across Canada ! It's an adequate setup,
bit underpowered on floats, unless you get an -L2C or -N2C, with
10 extra horses.... Again, all depends what you want to do !

During the same time, we also had a Rebel with a Rotax 912,
80 hp. . LOVED it ! Lighter than the O-235, so took off quicker,
and climbed better, lightly loaded. It also cruised slightly
(5+ mph) faster, on about 1/2 the fuel. We flew it on Murphy 1500
straight floats - performed very well !

The BIG difference was maintenance costs - the Lyc. had:
2 cylinders, a carb, a mag, an exhaust system, and spark plugs, etc.,
while the Rotax had 8 sets of spark plugs, 2 air filters,
and regular oil changes at 50 hours, for over 1,000 hours of trouble-free
cheap flying !! :-) Get in, turn the key, and go flying ! :-)

Tom Inglis flew his 912 Rebel into Oshkosh this year, from
Wingham, Ontario. He first flew it at least 3 years ago, and is quite
happy with it. It was on display in the Murphy booth, and attracted
a LOT of interest. (It qualifies for the Sport Plane category !!!) :-)

.....bop

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 06 September 2005 10:34 am, brad@dcsol.com wrote:
Morning All,

With all this talk about bigger and more power engines I'm inerested
in some opinions for my Rebel.

I may have a chance to pick up a good 115 HP engine. I am still a few
years
away from floats and with gas prices what they are I'm tempted. I am
doing
all
the O-320 mods so changing in the future won't be a big deal.

So,,, rather than going bigger and faster is any one flying their Rebels
with
a 115 HP? Happy or Not?

Thanks,

Brad (R195)

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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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bransom · Post by **bransom** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:59 am

Pretty interesting to see these preferences for the 912S and XP-360. They
would result in fairly different airplanes -- one easy on the gas, the other
on steroids. Funny too Bob, you're heading back to nearly the Rebel you
started with (+20 horses), right? Coupla other thoughts:

I think it fair to say too that the 912S ain't cheap in the first place.
I like to think a 320 could be rebuilt and some of the efficiency and weight
saving items (lite alternator, LSE, Ellison carb, Prince prop -- adding up to
160+hp w/out high compression), for equal or less than a new 912S. And, an
0320 could be driven slowly most of the time at 7gph instead of 912S @5gph,
so not too huge a gas budget difference, especially for someone like me who
will probably stay in the 50-100 hours flying per year. Am I all wet on this
line of thought?
-Ben/ 496R

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Bob Patterson · Post by **Bob Patterson** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:59 am

Hi Ben !

You're not all wet, but I think a NEW 912-S is only about $11,000,
and a NEW Lyc. is about $25,000 ! That is NOT expensive, for a modern,
well engineered aircraft engine, with modern metallurgy and electronic
ignition !!! I know of 912s with over 3,600 hrs without overhaul.
(Unlike the 1938 farm tractor technology of a Lyc. ...)

An OLD Lyc. is just a money pit - you never know when it's going
to bite you ! Cylinders crack - especially after about 3,000 hrs,
and there's no way of knowing how many hours are on your 'rebuilt'
cylinders .... about $1,800 a pop (or crack ! ;-) ) hereabouts !
I don't know about prices your way, but here, a rebuilt O-320 will
run between 19,000 and 21,000 CDN ... the days of $5,000 engines
are loooong gone ! :-)

Even with all those mods, your old Lyc. will burn a solid 8 gph -
mine went to 11 gph on the test stand ! (And some oil !)
Also, the Lyc. wants 80 octane leaded gas, which no longer exists,
so uses 100 LL, which soon will disappear - and, if you run mogas,
(which is going to be difficult, 'cause you can't run alcohol,
and everybody is trying to add at least 10% alcohol, even though
it's bad science ....) - you will have to buy expensive additives
to lube the valve seats !

The 912 was designed from scratch for mogas, and our trusty
912 burned 3 gph, dropping to about 2 1/2 in winter, for over 1,000 hours,
and no oil ! Maintenance is just routine spark plugs and air filters.

The rock solid reliability of the 912, plus the sprightly performance
and handling it gave the Rebel, are the reasons I want to go back to it !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 06 September 2005 03:44 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Pretty interesting to see these preferences for the 912S and XP-360. They
would result in fairly different airplanes -- one easy on the gas, the

other

on steroids. Funny too Bob, you're heading back to nearly the Rebel you
started with (+20 horses), right? Coupla other thoughts:

I think it fair to say too that the 912S ain't cheap in the first place.
I like to think a 320 could be rebuilt and some of the efficiency and

weight

saving items (lite alternator, LSE, Ellison carb, Prince prop -- adding up

to

160+hp w/out high compression), for equal or less than a new 912S. And,

an

0320 could be driven slowly most of the time at 7gph instead of 912S

@5gph,

so not too huge a gas budget difference, especially for someone like me

who

will probably stay in the 50-100 hours flying per year. Am I all wet on

this

line of thought?
-Ben/ 496R

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brad · Post by **brad** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:59 am

Bob,

Where are you buying your 912-S from?

At 100 Hp I'm assuming you need to be very carefull about
your empty weight.

Once again this site is forcing me to think about more
options (this is a good thing)

Brad (R195)

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WALTER KLATT · Post by **WALTER KLATT** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:59 am

I think we can stretch a case either way to support a lyc or a 912, and even a Subaru. But first, we need to be clear on the airplane's intended mission.

If you're on wheels only, there's no question a 912 will be adequate. An 0320 would be a nice ego boost on take-off or climb, but certainly not required, unless your base operations is in Colorado or Utah somewhere. Then a 914 might be a consideration, too.

However, floats are another matter, and if you stick to low elevations, keep it light, and have plenty of room, again you could get by with less than an 0320. But personally would not be convinced until I saw a 912 powered Rebel with 2 people fly into (and out) some of the smaller high alpine lakes that I go into with mine. It surprises even me how much difference 5000 feet in density altitude makes on a float take-off. I still remember last year at Nimpo Lake where we timed a solo 185 with a STOL kit take a full 60 seconds to get off the water. I'm sure at sea level he would have been off in 15 seconds. Fortunately, my Rebel performance was still much better with my 0320, but I bet a 912 powered Rebel would have been left on the water, until a good wind came up.

Also, have had lots of experience the last couple of years, struggling in hot weather to get up to 10,000 feet to clear some mountains. While I've had it as high as 12,000 feet, I can tell you there's not much left for climb rate over 10,000 with 2 people, and I'm at the mercy of the updrafts and downdrafts in the mountains then.

So that's the only reason I'm interested in an 0360 clone, for more extreme mountain float flying, no other reason. If I wanted to go fast, I would get an RV, but that's not what my Rebel is for.

On another related topic, everyone seems to have the impression that the lycs are big fuel hogs. I'm not so convinced of that anymore with my experience using a fuel monitor to lean it. I regularly fly at 65% using 7.5 US gph. That comes out to an SFC of .46 lb/hp/hr which I think is pretty darn good for 1938 tractor technology. I believe the 912 SFC is also around .46. So the 912 does use less fuel because it produces less hp. However, I can also run my lyc as low as 2000 rpm at 5 gph and still do 75-80 mph (in reflex) giving rides around my lake, and they don't really know the difference. I find that I can't go any slower than that before my nose starts to rise, unless I drop the reflex, and then it slows down anyway.

And about that fuel monitor, it's paid for itself just in fuel savings. I have tried leaning without it, and found myself always using about .5 gph more by leaning with just rpm and engine roughness. By playing with my throttle and mixture, and watching my EGTs (all 4 at once with my engine monitor) and rpms, I can squeeze that last little bit out of it, and still have a smooth running engine.

BTW, in case you think I don't like Rotax, I also fly another airplane now with a 912, so am familiar with that engine, too.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2005 2:29 pm
Subject: Re: Engine Choice

Hi Ben !

You're not all wet, but I think a NEW 912-S is only about
$11,000,and a NEW Lyc. is about $25,000 ! That is NOT expensive,
for a modern,
well engineered aircraft engine, with modern metallurgy and electronic
ignition !!! I know of 912s with over 3,600 hrs without overhaul.
(Unlike the 1938 farm tractor technology of a Lyc. ...)

An OLD Lyc. is just a money pit - you never know when it's going
to bite you ! Cylinders crack - especially after about 3,000 hrs,
and there's no way of knowing how many hours are on your 'rebuilt'
cylinders .... about $1,800 a pop (or crack ! ;-) ) hereabouts !
I don't know about prices your way, but here, a rebuilt O-320 will
run between 19,000 and 21,000 CDN ... the days of $5,000 engines
are loooong gone ! :-)

Even with all those mods, your old Lyc. will burn a solid 8
gph -
mine went to 11 gph on the test stand ! (And some oil !)
Also, the Lyc. wants 80 octane leaded gas, which no longer exists,
so uses 100 LL, which soon will disappear - and, if you run mogas,
(which is going to be difficult, 'cause you can't run alcohol,
and everybody is trying to add at least 10% alcohol, even though
it's bad science ....) - you will have to buy expensive additives
to lube the valve seats !

The 912 was designed from scratch for mogas, and our trusty
912 burned 3 gph, dropping to about 2 1/2 in winter, for over
1,000 hours,
and no oil ! Maintenance is just routine spark plugs and air filters.

The rock solid reliability of the 912, plus the sprightly
performanceand handling it gave the Rebel, are the reasons I want
to go back to it !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 06 September 2005 03:44 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:
Pretty interesting to see these preferences for the 912S and XP-
360. They
would result in fairly different airplanes -- one easy on the
gas, the
other
on steroids. Funny too Bob, you're heading back to nearly the
Rebel you
started with (+20 horses), right? Coupla other thoughts:

I think it fair to say too that the 912S ain't cheap in the
first place.
I like to think a 320 could be rebuilt and some of the
efficiency and
weight
saving items (lite alternator, LSE, Ellison carb, Prince prop --
adding up
to
160+hp w/out high compression), for equal or less than a new
912S. And,
an
0320 could be driven slowly most of the time at 7gph instead of
912S
@5gph,
so not too huge a gas budget difference, especially for someone
like me
who
will probably stay in the 50-100 hours flying per year. Am I
all wet on
this
line of thought?
-Ben/ 496R

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