If someone thinks they might have "shouldered" their bolts in the wing,
perhaps a "whole plane" inspection for similar bolt issues elsewhere is in
order.
Just a thought. Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. AC 43.13-1B
section 7-37 on page 7-5 provides guidelines for grip length bolt/washer
use. I'd be happy to email anyone interested this chapter (it's in PDF
format).
Ted
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
schaumr@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:38 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Thanks Wayne,
For those of us with completed wings, in your estimation how many hours can
we expect to take to 1) inspect for "shouldered" bolts (including the entire
length of the wing) and 2) re-washer offending bolts? It sounds daunting.
Rob
Rebel 786
Old Saybrook, CT
On 12/2/2009 9:08 AM, oifa@irishfield.on.ca wrote to rebel-builders:
-> Not sure if anyone on the list is still in the wing build stage on their
-> Rebel... but if you are......I've been "inside" 7 wings since late
September
-> and every friggin one of them has the AN3 bolts "shouldered". These are
the
-> bolts that attach the 1/4" thick spar caps to the main spar. One wing,
out
-> of a pair, that I was in.. even had the spar backer bolted in this way
the
-> FULL length of the wing !!.. not just the three bays around the attach
-> strut.
->
-> The overlength bolt/threads showing is an oversight on MAM's part in the
-> manual and in their AN960-10 washer supply... but every one of these
bolts
-> needs an extra washer fellas so go buy a couple hundred now for $20.
When
-> you can see 3+ threads showing on an AN3 bolt the nut is shouldered onto
the
-> grip of the bolt and it's not really tight..and possible that it's been
-> cracked from running out of thread.
->
-> The really sad part.. only two of these wings that I've inspected/worked
on
-> are USA built that can have an "excuse" with no preclose inspections
south
-> of our border.. but the Canadian ones.. should have been snagged before
they
-> got closed up this way!
->
-> That is all...
->
-> ;O)
-> Wayne
->
->
->
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[rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
-
Bob Palmer
[rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
We found several inappropriate bolt lengths during our build and changed
them as needed. For everyone that is fuzzy on this the short version is
one to three threads showing and a maximum of two washers under the nut.
MAM's manual seems slightly in disagreement in that they say a maximum
of three washers but AC43-13 says maximum 1/8th inch total height of
washers which equals two. The most critical thing is a maximum of three
threads and a minimum of two.
Bob.
773E
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them as needed. For everyone that is fuzzy on this the short version is
one to three threads showing and a maximum of two washers under the nut.
MAM's manual seems slightly in disagreement in that they say a maximum
of three washers but AC43-13 says maximum 1/8th inch total height of
washers which equals two. The most critical thing is a maximum of three
threads and a minimum of two.
Bob.
773E
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-
Wayne G. O'Shea
[rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Not disputing.. but would like to know exactly where you are reading this in
AC-43-13. I've seen the suggested 2 washer max (UNDER THE NUT) in
MDRA/Transport Canada inspection documents, but not in AC 43. .and a washer
under the head and two under the nut is fully acceptable to MDRA/TC.
According to AC 43-13 "Bolt grip lengths should equal the thickness of the
material.. However slightly greater grip length may be used provided washers
are placed under the nut or the bolthead.
Fiber or Nytrol nuts must allow the bolt to protude at least 1/32 of an
inch. No spelling out of one to three threads... which is a well know common
phrase/spec from inspecting documents (and common sense)... But I've never
seen it in AC-43-13. The only place I know of in AC43-13 that specifies
thread count is on Turnbuckles where no more than three thread can be
showing on either side of the barrel.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer" <rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
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AC-43-13. I've seen the suggested 2 washer max (UNDER THE NUT) in
MDRA/Transport Canada inspection documents, but not in AC 43. .and a washer
under the head and two under the nut is fully acceptable to MDRA/TC.
According to AC 43-13 "Bolt grip lengths should equal the thickness of the
material.. However slightly greater grip length may be used provided washers
are placed under the nut or the bolthead.
Fiber or Nytrol nuts must allow the bolt to protude at least 1/32 of an
inch. No spelling out of one to three threads... which is a well know common
phrase/spec from inspecting documents (and common sense)... But I've never
seen it in AC-43-13. The only place I know of in AC43-13 that specifies
thread count is on Turnbuckles where no more than three thread can be
showing on either side of the barrel.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer" <rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
We found several inappropriate bolt lengths during our build and changed
them as needed. For everyone that is fuzzy on this the short version is
one to three threads showing and a maximum of two washers under the nut.
MAM's manual seems slightly in disagreement in that they say a maximum
of three washers but AC43-13 says maximum 1/8th inch total height of
washers which equals two. The most critical thing is a maximum of three
threads and a minimum of two.
Bob.
773E
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-
Wayne G. O'Shea
[rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Okay.. I found it myself.. in 13-1B. Wasn't there in -1A and has been added
to the paragraph on bolt grip. I does say "should".. and not shall.. and
like Ken states the 3rd washer doesn't make a tinkers damn in structural
aspects.. if anything it may be better for it.
"The maximum combined height of
washers that should be used is 1/8 inch. This
limits the use of washers necessary to compensate
for grip, up to the next standard grip size."
Funny that they needed to add that after decades in print of -1A. Maybe they
inspected too many Rebels !! lol
And they've changed the 1/32" of bolt protrusion beyond the nytrol nut to
read..
"After the nut has been tightened, make
sure the bolt or stud has at least one thread
showing past the nut."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
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to the paragraph on bolt grip. I does say "should".. and not shall.. and
like Ken states the 3rd washer doesn't make a tinkers damn in structural
aspects.. if anything it may be better for it.
"The maximum combined height of
washers that should be used is 1/8 inch. This
limits the use of washers necessary to compensate
for grip, up to the next standard grip size."
Funny that they needed to add that after decades in print of -1A. Maybe they
inspected too many Rebels !! lol
And they've changed the 1/32" of bolt protrusion beyond the nytrol nut to
read..
"After the nut has been tightened, make
sure the bolt or stud has at least one thread
showing past the nut."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Not disputing.. but would like to know exactly where you are reading this
in
AC-43-13. I've seen the suggested 2 washer max (UNDER THE NUT) in
MDRA/Transport Canada inspection documents, but not in AC 43. .and a
washer
under the head and two under the nut is fully acceptable to MDRA/TC.
According to AC 43-13 "Bolt grip lengths should equal the thickness of
the
material.. However slightly greater grip length may be used provided
washers
are placed under the nut or the bolthead.
Fiber or Nytrol nuts must allow the bolt to protude at least 1/32 of an
inch. No spelling out of one to three threads... which is a well know
common
phrase/spec from inspecting documents (and common sense)... But I've never
seen it in AC-43-13. The only place I know of in AC43-13 that specifies
thread count is on Turnbuckles where no more than three thread can be
showing on either side of the barrel.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer" <rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
We found several inappropriate bolt lengths during our build and changed
them as needed. For everyone that is fuzzy on this the short version is
one to three threads showing and a maximum of two washers under the nut.
MAM's manual seems slightly in disagreement in that they say a maximum
of three washers but AC43-13 says maximum 1/8th inch total height of
washers which equals two. The most critical thing is a maximum of three
threads and a minimum of two.
Bob.
773E
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-
Bob Palmer
[rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Oops, I meant three and one thread!
Bob Palmer wrote:
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Bob Palmer wrote:
We found several inappropriate bolt lengths during our build and changed
them as needed. For everyone that is fuzzy on this the short version is
one to three threads showing and a maximum of two washers under the nut.
MAM's manual seems slightly in disagreement in that they say a maximum
of three washers but AC43-13 says maximum 1/8th inch total height of
washers which equals two. The most critical thing is a maximum of three
threads and a minimum of two.
Bob.
773E
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Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.90/2540 - Release Date: 12/01/09 23:33:00
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-
Richard Wampach
[rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Please do not forget there are thick 1/16" washers and thin 1/32" washers.
AN bolts come in 1/8" lengths. So by using the right combination of thick
and / or thin washers along with a bolt that does have the shank protrude
through multiple layers of material properly the correct installation can
always be obtained. AS I recall MS, & NAS bolts come in 1/16" lengths and
can be a close tolerance bolt---a slightly larger diameter by .002-.004
thousands larger.
Dick Wampach SR-108
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Palmer
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:19 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Oops, I meant three and one thread!
Bob Palmer wrote:
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AN bolts come in 1/8" lengths. So by using the right combination of thick
and / or thin washers along with a bolt that does have the shank protrude
through multiple layers of material properly the correct installation can
always be obtained. AS I recall MS, & NAS bolts come in 1/16" lengths and
can be a close tolerance bolt---a slightly larger diameter by .002-.004
thousands larger.
Dick Wampach SR-108
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Palmer
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:19 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Oops, I meant three and one thread!
Bob Palmer wrote:
23:33:00We found several inappropriate bolt lengths during our build and
changed
them as needed. For everyone that is fuzzy on this the short version is
one to three threads showing and a maximum of two washers under the nut.
MAM's manual seems slightly in disagreement in that they say a maximum
of three washers but AC43-13 says maximum 1/8th inch total height of
washers which equals two. The most critical thing is a maximum of three
threads and a minimum of two.
Bob.
773E
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-
Fred Messinger (fredm)
[rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Wayne,
What do you recommend for those of us who have quick built wings? I can see
where the guys assembling them in the factory would use the sized bolts
spec'd in the manual.
Fred
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Richard Wampach <rwampach@comcast.net>wrote:
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What do you recommend for those of us who have quick built wings? I can see
where the guys assembling them in the factory would use the sized bolts
spec'd in the manual.
Fred
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Richard Wampach <rwampach@comcast.net>wrote:
Please do not forget there are thick 1/16" washers and thin 1/32" washers.
AN bolts come in 1/8" lengths. So by using the right combination of thick
and / or thin washers along with a bolt that does have the shank protrude
through multiple layers of material properly the correct installation can
always be obtained. AS I recall MS, & NAS bolts come in 1/16" lengths and
can be a close tolerance bolt---a slightly larger diameter by .002-.004
thousands larger.
Dick Wampach SR-108
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Palmer
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:19 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Oops, I meant three and one thread!
Bob Palmer wrote:12/01/09We found several inappropriate bolt lengths during our build and
changed
them as needed. For everyone that is fuzzy on this the short version is
one to three threads showing and a maximum of two washers under the nut.
MAM's manual seems slightly in disagreement in that they say a maximum
of three washers but AC43-13 says maximum 1/8th inch total height of
washers which equals two. The most critical thing is a maximum of three
threads and a minimum of two.
Bob.
773E
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Wayne G. O'Shea
[rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Fred.. do you have an SR/Moose.. I pulled up pictures of the SR/Moose wings
I built to refresh myself and am pretty certain all the spar caps/doubler
plates etc are all riveted in with solid rivets... no bolts.
This spar cap bolt issue applies to the Rebel and Elite only. Did any
Elite's get quick built?? If so... all you can do is pull an inspection
cover at the lift strut attach and have a peek to have peace of mine.. or..
swear. Not much you can do about them in a closed wing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Messinger (fredm)" <fredmessinger@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
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I built to refresh myself and am pretty certain all the spar caps/doubler
plates etc are all riveted in with solid rivets... no bolts.
This spar cap bolt issue applies to the Rebel and Elite only. Did any
Elite's get quick built?? If so... all you can do is pull an inspection
cover at the lift strut attach and have a peek to have peace of mine.. or..
swear. Not much you can do about them in a closed wing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Messinger (fredm)" <fredmessinger@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Wayne,
What do you recommend for those of us who have quick built wings? I can
see
where the guys assembling them in the factory would use the sized bolts
spec'd in the manual.
Fred
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Richard Wampach
<rwampach@comcast.net>wrote:
Please do not forget there are thick 1/16" washers and thin 1/32"
washers.
AN bolts come in 1/8" lengths. So by using the right combination of
thick
and / or thin washers along with a bolt that does have the shank protrude
through multiple layers of material properly the correct installation can
always be obtained. AS I recall MS, & NAS bolts come in 1/16" lengths
and
can be a close tolerance bolt---a slightly larger diameter by .002-.004
thousands larger.
Dick Wampach SR-108
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Palmer
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:19 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Oops, I meant three and one thread!
Bob Palmer wrote:12/01/09We found several inappropriate bolt lengths during our build and
changed
them as needed. For everyone that is fuzzy on this the short version is
one to three threads showing and a maximum of two washers under the
nut.
MAM's manual seems slightly in disagreement in that they say a maximum
of three washers but AC43-13 says maximum 1/8th inch total height of
washers which equals two. The most critical thing is a maximum of
three
threads and a minimum of two.
Bob.
773E
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Fred Messinger (fredm)
[rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Excellent idea. Thanks Keith!
Fred
Moose 295
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:07 PM, <kpierson@dcsol.com> wrote:
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Fred
Moose 295
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:07 PM, <kpierson@dcsol.com> wrote:
A simple test to determine if the nut has bottemed out.
If the head of the bolt can be turned without serious wrenching
chances are the nut has bottemed out.
Keith P. 318R
On 12/2/2009 9:08 AM, oifa@irishfield.on.ca wrote to rebel-builders:
-> Not sure if anyone on the list is still in the wing build stage on their
-> Rebel... but if you are......I've been "inside" 7 wings since late
September
-> and every friggin one of them has the AN3 bolts "shouldered". These are
the
-> bolts that attach the 1/4" thick spar caps to the main spar. One wing,
out
-> of a pair, that I was in.. even had the spar backer bolted in this way
the
-> FULL length of the wing !!.. not just the three bays around the attach
-> strut.
->
-> The overlength bolt/threads showing is an oversight on MAM's part in the
-> manual and in their AN960-10 washer supply... but every one of these
bolts
-> needs an extra washer fellas so go buy a couple hundred now for $20.
When
-> you can see 3+ threads showing on an AN3 bolt the nut is shouldered onto
the
-> grip of the bolt and it's not really tight..and possible that it's been
-> cracked from running out of thread.
->
-> The really sad part.. only two of these wings that I've inspected/worked
on
-> are USA built that can have an "excuse" with no preclose inspections
south
-> of our border.. but the Canadian ones.. should have been snagged before
they
-> got closed up this way!
->
-> That is all...
->
-> ;O)
-> Wayne
->
->
->
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Bob Palmer
[rebel-builders] RE: Rebel - Wing Spar Cap Bolts.
Guys,
I feel I may have muddied the issue that I believe Wayne was referring
to by bringing up the allowable number of washers (side issue). I
Believe that Wayne's comment of "shouldered bolts" refers to showing
more than three threads indicating that the bolt /may/ have run out of
thread and as such does not properly grip the material. So, if you have
more than three threads exposed either use a shorter bolt or use a
washer or two (or a half). Otherwise you may have a part that does not
meet it's design specification.
Sorry.
Bob.
kpierson@dcsol.com wrote:
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I feel I may have muddied the issue that I believe Wayne was referring
to by bringing up the allowable number of washers (side issue). I
Believe that Wayne's comment of "shouldered bolts" refers to showing
more than three threads indicating that the bolt /may/ have run out of
thread and as such does not properly grip the material. So, if you have
more than three threads exposed either use a shorter bolt or use a
washer or two (or a half). Otherwise you may have a part that does not
meet it's design specification.
Sorry.
Bob.
kpierson@dcsol.com wrote:
A simple test to determine if the nut has bottemed out.
If the head of the bolt can be turned without serious wrenching
chances are the nut has bottemed out.
Keith P. 318R
On 12/2/2009 9:08 AM, oifa@irishfield.on.ca wrote to rebel-builders:
-> Not sure if anyone on the list is still in the wing build stage on their
-> Rebel... but if you are......I've been "inside" 7 wings since late September
-> and every friggin one of them has the AN3 bolts "shouldered". These are
the
-> bolts that attach the 1/4" thick spar caps to the main spar. One wing, out
-> of a pair, that I was in.. even had the spar backer bolted in this way the
-> FULL length of the wing !!.. not just the three bays around the attach
-> strut.
->
-> The overlength bolt/threads showing is an oversight on MAM's part in the
-> manual and in their AN960-10 washer supply... but every one of these
bolts
-> needs an extra washer fellas so go buy a couple hundred now for $20.
When
-> you can see 3+ threads showing on an AN3 bolt the nut is shouldered onto
the
-> grip of the bolt and it's not really tight..and possible that it's been
-> cracked from running out of thread.
->
-> The really sad part.. only two of these wings that I've inspected/worked
on
-> are USA built that can have an "excuse" with no preclose inspections
south
-> of our border.. but the Canadian ones.. should have been snagged before
they
-> got closed up this way!
->
-> That is all...
->
-> ;O)
-> Wayne
->
->
->
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