[rebel-builders] Adjusting Aileron/Flaps - Elite

N.Smith · Post by **N.Smith** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:40 pm

Hi All

While there's a string running on this topic, I'm about to finalise my Elite
setup and would appreciate comments to overcome some discrepancies in the
manual.

Firstly, the flap handle assembly has 5 position grooves in it. I assume the
most forward one is 5 degree reflex and the 2nd is 0 which I would call
neutral.

The Control surface deflection guide page from Murphy calls for ailerons 4"
up and 3 1/4" down.

But..... Ch8 Elite Wing calls for 20 degrees up and 40 degrees down !!!
(8.27.4)

I would expect more up than down so is Ch 8 wrong ?

Next question then is do you rig the ailerons for this travel from in line
with flap reflex (-5) or line the ailerons up with the flaps in 0 degree and
go from there ?

Finally, there is reference to aileron differential, is this achieved by the
mixer horn CC-48-2 as I can't get my head round how this is done ?? (the
mixer horn geometry being that the forward push pull tube is slightly
further from the bell crank bearing MI-25 than the rear push pull tube -
this based on measuring the diagram in the manual as there is no mention in
the text as to what the correct way should be, only a statement in the
diagram saying it is not symmetrical !!)

Many thanks to you all as always

Nig
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: 20 October 2009 13:15
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Adjusting Aileron/Flaps

The bulletin with control movement specs says 15 degrees max flaperon
and I get 15 to 18 in flight as long as I slow to about 65 knots or
less. In the zero flap position they hang down at least an inch on the
ground. I have to select reflex to get them to fare with the wing in
order to install control locks on the ground. Mostly just a matter of
installing the cable tight enough so you have the room to adjust things.
The mixer lever arm has to be tight enough in the slot that it doesn't
twist too much. If you notice the outer teleflex moving sideways it
doesn't hurt to tie wrap it to the airframe ceiling where possible but
that is very minor. With my slow cruising speed I very rarely use reflex
but they do still reflex almost an inch at the trailing edge.

There is another thing going on on my aircraft. Perhaps my 3 blade Warp
prop in inefficient or something but the more power I have on, the more
the flaperons want to deflect with the spiraling prop wash and roll the
aircraft to the left. That and P factor, and a bit of engine torque,
sometimes surprises other pilots during takeoff. It also means that I
need right aileron trim in cruise to keep the flaperon deflection
neutral. This is heresy here but I think I'd like separate flaps as long
as I could still drop the ailerons like Steve Sloan does. That would
also reduce the required stick force to get full aileron deflection and
harmonize the controls better during crosswind ops IMO.

Ken

Garry Wright wrote:

Ken,

Can you elaborate a bit on the last paragraph on being sure the teleflex
cable is tensioned. I don't get full extension in flight and it is a
common complaint of rebel drivers - not that affects its flight that
much. I get full extension until the flaperons are wind loaded then
probably less than half.

Garry

Ken wrote:
Charlie

The archives has info on the mixer but sounds like Jeff has answered
that. I would not have remembered which way it goes but I do remember
working out the geometry at the time.

My curiosity about modifying the forward bellcrank would only apply if
the bellcrank was not centered on the control tube. It would be offset a
bit if I just drill a new hole and don't move the bellcrank. My
elevators are very light to move and fairly sensitive but it takes firm
side pressure to get full aileron in flight when the flaperons are down.
So just drilling the new hole might produce a tendency to move the
control stick forward or aft a bit when I apply aileron. That's my
excuse for not doing it yet anyway ;)

I would not be too concerned about perfection here. A half inch is not
very significant. I should take my own advice eh? Might be annoying when
you extend the flaps if the stick moves sideways but you probably
wouldn't notice after awhile. It is important to make sure the teleflex
cable is tensioned when you rig them though. ie don't rig them with the
teleflex holding the flaperons up or you will not get anywhere near full
extension in flight.

Ken

Charlie Eubanks wrote:

Hi Ken

You are right in that there are a number of things that could contribute

to

the unevenness and difficultly in getting the controls properly rigged.

I

followed all the steps in the manual I thought but it still a head
scratchier. My smaller push rods and the 2" torque tubes in the fuselage

are

just clecoed so I can still do some adjusting, if I can figure out what

to

do next.

The other item in your message about the mixer bell crank was a BIG

surprise

to me. I can find nowhere in my manual any mention of the mixer bell

crank

having a uneven hole pattern or that it could be installed backwards. I
assumed it to be symmetrical. I just checked the hole pattern and you

are

correct. The holes for the two smaller push rods are a 1/8" different in

distance from the hole for the 1" push rod. If this info is a factor in

the

successful rigging of the controls, on which side does it go? Was there
somewhere in the Rebel files an alert posted I may have missed? I guess

it

still not to late but this info may have saved a lot of time and head

aches

had I have known.

Sorry I can't answer your question about the modified bell cranks effect

on

the elevator. I have yet to install the elevator or rudder cables. I

would

be interested in your concern however.

Thanks for the heads up on the mixer bell crank.

Charlie E. 802R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Adjusting Aileron/Flaps

to

Dennis Finley · Post by **Dennis Finley** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:40 pm

Hi Nigel
I went through this here is what you need to do,as far as changing
anything to do with how far the ratio is between up travel and down
you cannot change this with out re drilling changing arms ,and is not
required all this is set in the design,if you put your controls in
reflex or the most forward position,then put a 2x4 or straight edge
across the top of the cabin set your flaps to this,when every thing is
set your flaps and aileron's will be straight across the top in a nice
line,and all your controls will be set.remember when the elite was
designed it was done with the cabin 2 inches higher than the
rebel,this was so it was nice and straight across the back when in
reflex.the elite and rebel set up are different so do not use rebel
info,you will not get the travels listed in the manual,they are
wrong,set the controls as above and you will have no troubles.

Dennis Finley

Elite amphib C-FDYF

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 1:22 PM, N.Smith <admin@airnig.co.uk> wrote:
[quote]Hi All

While there's a string running on this topic, I'm about to finalise my Elite
setup and would appreciate comments to overcome some discrepancies in the
manual.

Firstly, the flap handle assembly has 5 position grooves in it. I assume the
most forward one is 5 degree reflex and the 2nd is 0 which I would call
neutral.

The Control surface deflection guide page from Murphy calls for ailerons 4"
up and 3 1/4" down.

But..... Ch8 Elite Wing calls for 20 degrees up and 40 degrees down !!!
(8.27.4)

I would expect more up than down so is Ch 8 wrong ?

Next question then is do you rig the ailerons for this travel from in line
with flap reflex (-5) or line the ailerons up with the flaps in 0 degree and
go from there ?

Finally, there is reference to aileron differential, is this achieved by the
mixer horn CC-48-2 as I can't get my head round how this is done ?? (the
mixer horn geometry being that the forward push pull tube is slightly
further from the bell crank bearing MI-25 than the rear push pull tube -
this based on measuring the diagram in the manual as there is no mention in
the text as to what the correct way should be, only a statement in the
diagram saying it is not symmetrical !!)

Many thanks to you all as always

Nig
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: 20 October 2009 13:15
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Adjusting Aileron/Flaps

The bulletin with control movement specs says 15 degrees max flaperon
and I get 15 to 18 in flight as long as I slow to about 65 knots or
less. In the zero flap position they hang down at least an inch on the
ground. I have to select reflex to get them to fare with the wing in
order to install control locks on the ground. Mostly just a matter of
installing the cable tight enough so you have the room to adjust things.
The mixer lever arm has to be tight enough in the slot that it doesn't
twist too much. If you notice the outer teleflex moving sideways it
doesn't hurt to tie wrap it to the airframe ceiling where possible but
that is very minor. With my slow cruising speed I very rarely use reflex
but they do still reflex almost an inch at the trailing edge.

There is another thing going on on my aircraft. Perhaps my 3 blade Warp
prop in inefficient or something but the more power I have on, the more
the flaperons want to deflect with the spiraling prop wash and roll the
aircraft to the left. That and P factor, and a bit of engine torque,
sometimes surprises other pilots during takeoff. It also means that I
need right aileron trim in cruise to keep the flaperon deflection
neutral. This is heresy here but I think I'd like separate flaps as long
as I could still drop the ailerons like Steve Sloan does. That would
also reduce the required stick force to get full aileron deflection and
harmonize the controls better during crosswind ops IMO.

Ken

Garry Wright wrote:
[quote]Ken,

Can you elaborate a bit on the last paragraph on being sure the teleflex
cable is tensioned. I don't get full extension in flight and it is a
common complaint of rebel drivers - not that affects its flight that
much. I get full extension until the flaperons are wind loaded then
probably less than half.

Garry

Ken wrote:
[quote]Charlie

The archives has info on the mixer but sounds like Jeff has answered
that. I would not have remembered which way it goes but I do remember
working out the geometry at the time.

My curiosity about modifying the forward bellcrank would only apply if
the bellcrank was not centered on the control tube. It would be offset a
bit if I just drill a new hole and don't move the bellcrank.

Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:40 pm

Nigel,
Ailerons need to be at least 15 degrees up. My Elite is 16 up and 13 down.
The elevator is 25 up, 12 down. As for flaps, I may be able to give some
accurate answers to you on any of this with a visit to the hanger, just ask.
I thought there are only 4 notches, maybe it is 5?, forward notch is reflex,
then neutral, then 2 or 3 down after that. When in reflex the leading edge
of the aileron on the bottom is at the same plane as the bottom of the wing.
So looking at the bottom wing skin, you have a flat bottom, that continues
right across to the aileron first several inches, then the skin takes off on
an angle up from there. I can send a picture if you want. I also had trouble
on first flight with flaps lever not staying in the notch selected. I had to
do some filing to get a better lock in. Also from memory, I thought the
flaps and ailerons were both in reflex when at this forward position. So
when you walked under the airplane, that flat area on the leading edge of
both the aileron and flap were flat across from the bottom wing skin.
Mike
N771ME

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
N.Smith
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 3:22 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Adjusting Aileron/Flaps - Elite

Hi All

While there's a string running on this topic, I'm about to finalise my Elite
setup and would appreciate comments to overcome some discrepancies in the
manual.

Firstly, the flap handle assembly has 5 position grooves in it. I assume the
most forward one is 5 degree reflex and the 2nd is 0 which I would call
neutral.

The Control surface deflection guide page from Murphy calls for ailerons 4"
up and 3 1/4" down.

But..... Ch8 Elite Wing calls for 20 degrees up and 40 degrees down !!!
(8.27.4)

I would expect more up than down so is Ch 8 wrong ?

Next question then is do you rig the ailerons for this travel from in line
with flap reflex (-5) or line the ailerons up with the flaps in 0 degree and
go from there ?

Finally, there is reference to aileron differential, is this achieved by the
mixer horn CC-48-2 as I can't get my head round how this is done ?? (the
mixer horn geometry being that the forward push pull tube is slightly
further from the bell crank bearing MI-25 than the rear push pull tube -
this based on measuring the diagram in the manual as there is no mention in
the text as to what the correct way should be, only a statement in the
diagram saying it is not symmetrical !!)

Many thanks to you all as always

Nig
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: 20 October 2009 13:15
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Adjusting Aileron/Flaps

The bulletin with control movement specs says 15 degrees max flaperon
and I get 15 to 18 in flight as long as I slow to about 65 knots or
less. In the zero flap position they hang down at least an inch on the
ground. I have to select reflex to get them to fare with the wing in
order to install control locks on the ground. Mostly just a matter of
installing the cable tight enough so you have the room to adjust things.
The mixer lever arm has to be tight enough in the slot that it doesn't
twist too much. If you notice the outer teleflex moving sideways it
doesn't hurt to tie wrap it to the airframe ceiling where possible but
that is very minor. With my slow cruising speed I very rarely use reflex
but they do still reflex almost an inch at the trailing edge.

There is another thing going on on my aircraft. Perhaps my 3 blade Warp
prop in inefficient or something but the more power I have on, the more
the flaperons want to deflect with the spiraling prop wash and roll the
aircraft to the left. That and P factor, and a bit of engine torque,
sometimes surprises other pilots during takeoff. It also means that I
need right aileron trim in cruise to keep the flaperon deflection
neutral. This is heresy here but I think I'd like separate flaps as long
as I could still drop the ailerons like Steve Sloan does. That would
also reduce the required stick force to get full aileron deflection and
harmonize the controls better during crosswind ops IMO.

Ken

Garry Wright wrote:

Ken,

Can you elaborate a bit on the last paragraph on being sure the teleflex
cable is tensioned. I don't get full extension in flight and it is a
common complaint of rebel drivers - not that affects its flight that
much. I get full extension until the flaperons are wind loaded then
probably less than half.

Garry

Ken wrote:
Charlie

The archives has info on the mixer but sounds like Jeff has answered
that. I would not have remembered which way it goes but I do remember
working out the geometry at the time.

My curiosity about modifying the forward bellcrank would only apply if
the bellcrank was not centered on the control tube. It would be offset a
bit if I just drill a new hole and don't move the bellcrank. My
elevators are very light to move and fairly sensitive but it takes firm
side pressure to get full aileron in flight when the flaperons are down.
So just drilling the new hole might produce a tendency to move the
control stick forward or aft a bit when I apply aileron. That's my
excuse for not doing it yet anyway ;)

I would not be too concerned about perfection here. A half inch is not
very significant. I should take my own advice eh? Might be annoying when
you extend the flaps if the stick moves sideways but you probably
wouldn't notice after awhile. It is important to make sure the teleflex
cable is tensioned when you rig them though. ie don't rig them with the
teleflex holding the flaperons up or you will not get anywhere near full
extension in flight.

Ken

Charlie Eubanks wrote:

Hi Ken

You are right in that there are a number of things that could contribute

to

the unevenness and difficultly in getting the controls properly rigged.

I

followed all the steps in the manual I thought but it still a head
scratchier. My smaller push rods and the 2" torque tubes in the fuselage

are

just clecoed so I can still do some adjusting, if I can figure out what

to

do next.

The other item in your message about the mixer bell crank was a BIG

surprise

to me. I can find nowhere in my manual any mention of the mixer bell

crank

having a uneven hole pattern or that it could be installed backwards. I
assumed it to be symmetrical. I just checked the hole pattern and you

are

correct. The holes for the two smaller push rods are a 1/8" different in

distance from the hole for the 1" push rod. If this info is a factor in

the

successful rigging of the controls, on which side does it go? Was there
somewhere in the Rebel files an alert posted I may have missed? I guess

it

still not to late but this info may have saved a lot of time and head

aches

had I have known.

Sorry I can't answer your question about the modified bell cranks effect

on

the elevator. I have yet to install the elevator or rudder cables. I

would

be interested in your concern however.

Thanks for the heads up on the mixer bell crank.

Charlie E. 802R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Adjusting Aileron/Flaps

to

N.Smith · Post by **N.Smith** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:41 pm

Thanks to all who replied to my post, some on, some off list.
There is obviously a lot of thinking hours spent in this area !
Today I've started drilling, and I'll put together a sheet of tips to
hopefully simplify this for those that follow in the next few days when I've
got it finished and can put it all down on paper.

Thanks again for all the input.

Nig
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Betti
Sent: 22 October 2009 01:56
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Adjusting Aileron/Flaps - Elite

Nigel,
Ailerons need to be at least 15 degrees up. My Elite is 16 up and 13 down.
The elevator is 25 up, 12 down. As for flaps, I may be able to give some
accurate answers to you on any of this with a visit to the hanger, just ask.
I thought there are only 4 notches, maybe it is 5?, forward notch is reflex,
then neutral, then 2 or 3 down after that. When in reflex the leading edge
of the aileron on the bottom is at the same plane as the bottom of the wing.
So looking at the bottom wing skin, you have a flat bottom, that continues
right across to the aileron first several inches, then the skin takes off on
an angle up from there. I can send a picture if you want. I also had trouble
on first flight with flaps lever not staying in the notch selected. I had to
do some filing to get a better lock in. Also from memory, I thought the
flaps and ailerons were both in reflex when at this forward position. So
when you walked under the airplane, that flat area on the leading edge of
both the aileron and flap were flat across from the bottom wing skin.
Mike
N771ME

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
N.Smith
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 3:22 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Adjusting Aileron/Flaps - Elite

Hi All

While there's a string running on this topic, I'm about to finalise my Elite
setup and would appreciate comments to overcome some discrepancies in the
manual.

Firstly, the flap handle assembly has 5 position grooves in it. I assume the
most forward one is 5 degree reflex and the 2nd is 0 which I would call
neutral.

The Control surface deflection guide page from Murphy calls for ailerons 4"
up and 3 1/4" down.

But..... Ch8 Elite Wing calls for 20 degrees up and 40 degrees down !!!
(8.27.4)

I would expect more up than down so is Ch 8 wrong ?

Next question then is do you rig the ailerons for this travel from in line
with flap reflex (-5) or line the ailerons up with the flaps in 0 degree and
go from there ?

Finally, there is reference to aileron differential, is this achieved by the
mixer horn CC-48-2 as I can't get my head round how this is done ?? (the
mixer horn geometry being that the forward push pull tube is slightly
further from the bell crank bearing MI-25 than the rear push pull tube -
this based on measuring the diagram in the manual as there is no mention in
the text as to what the correct way should be, only a statement in the
diagram saying it is not symmetrical !!)

Many thanks to you all as always

Nig
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: 20 October 2009 13:15
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Adjusting Aileron/Flaps

The bulletin with control movement specs says 15 degrees max flaperon
and I get 15 to 18 in flight as long as I slow to about 65 knots or
less. In the zero flap position they hang down at least an inch on the
ground. I have to select reflex to get them to fare with the wing in
order to install control locks on the ground. Mostly just a matter of
installing the cable tight enough so you have the room to adjust things.
The mixer lever arm has to be tight enough in the slot that it doesn't
twist too much. If you notice the outer teleflex moving sideways it
doesn't hurt to tie wrap it to the airframe ceiling where possible but
that is very minor. With my slow cruising speed I very rarely use reflex
but they do still reflex almost an inch at the trailing edge.

There is another thing going on on my aircraft. Perhaps my 3 blade Warp
prop in inefficient or something but the more power I have on, the more
the flaperons want to deflect with the spiraling prop wash and roll the
aircraft to the left. That and P factor, and a bit of engine torque,
sometimes surprises other pilots during takeoff. It also means that I
need right aileron trim in cruise to keep the flaperon deflection
neutral. This is heresy here but I think I'd like separate flaps as long
as I could still drop the ailerons like Steve Sloan does. That would
also reduce the required stick force to get full aileron deflection and
harmonize the controls better during crosswind ops IMO.

Ken

Garry Wright wrote:

Ken,

Can you elaborate a bit on the last paragraph on being sure the teleflex
cable is tensioned. I don't get full extension in flight and it is a
common complaint of rebel drivers - not that affects its flight that
much. I get full extension until the flaperons are wind loaded then
probably less than half.

Garry

Ken wrote:
Charlie

The archives has info on the mixer but sounds like Jeff has answered
that. I would not have remembered which way it goes but I do remember
working out the geometry at the time.

My curiosity about modifying the forward bellcrank would only apply if
the bellcrank was not centered on the control tube. It would be offset a
bit if I just drill a new hole and don't move the bellcrank. My
elevators are very light to move and fairly sensitive but it takes firm
side pressure to get full aileron in flight when the flaperons are down.
So just drilling the new hole might produce a tendency to move the
control stick forward or aft a bit when I apply aileron. That's my
excuse for not doing it yet anyway ;)

I would not be too concerned about perfection here. A half inch is not
very significant. I should take my own advice eh? Might be annoying when
you extend the flaps if the stick moves sideways but you probably
wouldn't notice after awhile. It is important to make sure the teleflex
cable is tensioned when you rig them though. ie don't rig them with the
teleflex holding the flaperons up or you will not get anywhere near full
extension in flight.

Ken

Charlie Eubanks wrote:

Hi Ken

You are right in that there are a number of things that could contribute

to

the unevenness and difficultly in getting the controls properly rigged.

I

followed all the steps in the manual I thought but it still a head
scratchier. My smaller push rods and the 2" torque tubes in the fuselage

are

just clecoed so I can still do some adjusting, if I can figure out what

to

do next.

The other item in your message about the mixer bell crank was a BIG

surprise

to me. I can find nowhere in my manual any mention of the mixer bell

crank

having a uneven hole pattern or that it could be installed backwards. I
assumed it to be symmetrical. I just checked the hole pattern and you

are

correct. The holes for the two smaller push rods are a 1/8" different in

distance from the hole for the 1" push rod. If this info is a factor in

the

successful rigging of the controls, on which side does it go? Was there
somewhere in the Rebel files an alert posted I may have missed? I guess

it

still not to late but this info may have saved a lot of time and head

aches

had I have known.

Sorry I can't answer your question about the modified bell cranks effect

on

the elevator. I have yet to install the elevator or rudder cables. I

would

be interested in your concern however.

Thanks for the heads up on the mixer bell crank.

Charlie E. 802R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Adjusting Aileron/Flaps

to