[rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

bransom · Post by **bransom** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:03 pm

I gotta admit, I like the looks of the Rebel with that cowl enough to maybe
go to the trouble. I know others have reported troubles too. Do you
recall if it was Bruce Georgen that had the same cowl and did something
with the hinge lines to ease access? (And what mod he did?) Anyway, glad
to hear the cooling can be accomplished with that cowl.
-Ben

On 11/24/2008 1:38 PM, walter.klatt@shaw.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

Yes, and that is what I had before with my old 320. No question, there

are challenges with this one. The stock one from MAM might work for a
wheeled Rebel or Elite, but not a chance on floats. On my first one I ended
up changing first the exit, and then opening up the inlets a bit, too. With
this one, I got away with just changing the bottom.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: bransom@dcsol.com
Date: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:16 am
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Walter,
Are you using a "speed" cowl?
-Ben

Well, after all the cooling battles I had with my last cowl on
the 320, have
to say that I finally got it right the first time with this
360. It cools
beautifully, even better than the best that I finally saw with
the 320. And
I really put it to the test last summer in the interior (+35 C).

With the old engine (Lycoming), I had trouble cooling #3 and
4. Not this
one; all cylinders are even in cruise. On climb-out, it is
actually #1 and 2
that run a bit higher, but then cool right down with cruise.

What's interesting, though, is that on Dennis' (360 Lycoming),
his #3 runs
highest on climb-out (same as my old 320). Yet we have the
exact same model
carb on our 360s now. I wonder if this is a difference between
Superior and
Lycoming with the Superior sump intakes providing more even mixture
distribution.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On
Behalf Of Eric
Fogelin
Sent: November 23, 2008 9:12 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I did generate a pretty high nose angle when I tried a stick
back takeoff in
the Elite. But, it doesn't seem necessary. Since it gets up on
step quickly
with a more neutral stick, I don't think I'll normally use the
technique.>
But, to simulate higher elevation takeoffs, I'll use lower
power. Initial
full stick back may be necessary, with stick forward to get
over the hump.
Sounds like I get to have a bunch of fun trying things out on
the water.
First I need to deal with cooling issues with my speed cowl.
Sound familiar?
I've got lots of archive email and photos printed out as I fix mine.

Eric
Elite 645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On
Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 1:20 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Looks pretty good, Eric. Your performance is very close to
what Dennis gets
with his on take-off. I have timed his with a passenger and
3/4 fuel at the
lake, and it was less than 15 seconds.

One thing I noticed when flying the Elite on water, is that
the nose does
not come up as high on initial power, even with full up
elevator as with my
Rebel. With Dennis', it is more of a gradual transition onto
the step and
then plane it to lift-off. I don't know if he doesn't have as
much elevator
travel or it is just because of the bigger tail of the Elite.

With my Rebel, the nose really swings high on power up, and
then with
forward elevator just hops straight onto the step, and lifts
off right after
that. Best I could get with the 320, with a good headwind, was
about 10
seconds. But with the 360, I think it is closer to 5, although
haven't had a
chance to video it yet. Of course, I am talking solo with a
light load. A
passenger and full fuel makes quite a difference.

But I do want to try the 3 degrees and see what it does.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On
Behalf Of Eric
Fogelin
Sent: November 23, 2008 12:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I have a half dozen water flights since first flight a few
weeks ago. I like
the performance. I have not flown full gross weight yet, but I
can get off
the water (sea level) at 1900 lbs, light to calm wind (small
water ripples),
at 55F in 10-12 seconds with 2 notches of flaps.

Power has been brought in smoothly and I'm just getting to
full power before
liftoff. I haven't tried a high performance, more flap takeoff
which should
be real short.

Rear of floats are not dragging. I've experimented with
technique, but not
using full elevator on initial start, just aft of neutral, the
floats pop up
on step, no real hump, planes and then liftoff. Nice.

My angle may work due to horsepower and constant speed prop.
I'm running the
Superior XP-O-360 180HP with an MT constant speed prop. My
cruise at 75%
power (2500rpm, 25" MP) is about 100kts IAS. My pitot system
seems pretty
accurate at cruise.

Plenty more testing to do, so I'll post results when there is
something more
conclusive.

Below is a YouTube video showing a landing and takeoff run.
The takeoff is
near the end of the 3.5 minute video. It shows pretty well the float
attitude through the takeoff run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54olsv7kbyc

Thanks,

Eric
Elite 645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On
Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 6:47 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Eric... have you tried getting your Elite to fly off the water
yet @ only
1.7 degrees? Even at 2.3* hard to get them to part the surface
as trying to
rotate the "wing" to get airborne will have you dragging the
rear keel. 3 to
3.5* seems to work best and I've adjusted more than a few and
always end up
at 3.3 to 3.5*'s

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Fogelin" <elist@whidbey.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

tail. The Comm
height can vary
bottom of main
degrees. The
Behalf Of
it sounds
the rudder
Roof. Tail is
theaters, movie news &

more!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075 ... 7/aol?redi>

r=htt
p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001)> >
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Walter Klatt · Post by **Walter Klatt** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:03 pm

Yes, I always liked the looks of that cowl, and with my CHTs now in the low
300's in cruise, no problem with cooling. Oil cooler is on the right rear
baffle. At this time, with the cooler weather, I have 1/2 of it blocked off.

People here have often mentioned the need for a larger exit. While that is
important, the shape of the bottom also matters. You want the air deflected
not only down, but also to the sides, and make the opening as wide as
possible. The current speed cowl is actually pretty easy to modify that way.
All I had to do was drop that centre piece a few inches, and that did it.

I think a 2.5 inch spacer on the prop helps as well. Had a 2 inch one on my
320, and it was very tight on the right side, which is why opening the
inlets helped on that one.

Yes, Bruce Georgian did a nice job of having four doors on his, taking
advantage of the existing piano hinges.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: November 24, 2008 9:06 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I gotta admit, I like the looks of the Rebel with that cowl enough to maybe
go to the trouble. I know others have reported troubles too. Do you
recall if it was Bruce Georgen that had the same cowl and did something
with the hinge lines to ease access? (And what mod he did?) Anyway, glad
to hear the cooling can be accomplished with that cowl.
-Ben

On 11/24/2008 1:38 PM, walter.klatt@shaw.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

Yes, and that is what I had before with my old 320. No question, there

are challenges with this one. The stock one from MAM might work for a
wheeled Rebel or Elite, but not a chance on floats. On my first one I ended
up changing first the exit, and then opening up the inlets a bit, too. With
this one, I got away with just changing the bottom.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: bransom@dcsol.com
Date: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:16 am
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Walter,
Are you using a "speed" cowl?
-Ben

Well, after all the cooling battles I had with my last cowl on
the 320, have
to say that I finally got it right the first time with this
360. It cools
beautifully, even better than the best that I finally saw with
the 320. And
I really put it to the test last summer in the interior (+35 C).

With the old engine (Lycoming), I had trouble cooling #3 and
4. Not this
one; all cylinders are even in cruise. On climb-out, it is
actually #1 and 2
that run a bit higher, but then cool right down with cruise.

What's interesting, though, is that on Dennis' (360 Lycoming),
his #3 runs
highest on climb-out (same as my old 320). Yet we have the
exact same model
carb on our 360s now. I wonder if this is a difference between
Superior and
Lycoming with the Superior sump intakes providing more even mixture
distribution.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On
Behalf Of Eric
Fogelin
Sent: November 23, 2008 9:12 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I did generate a pretty high nose angle when I tried a stick
back takeoff in
the Elite. But, it doesn't seem necessary. Since it gets up on
step quickly
with a more neutral stick, I don't think I'll normally use the
technique.>
But, to simulate higher elevation takeoffs, I'll use lower
power. Initial
full stick back may be necessary, with stick forward to get
over the hump.
Sounds like I get to have a bunch of fun trying things out on
the water.
First I need to deal with cooling issues with my speed cowl.
Sound familiar?
I've got lots of archive email and photos printed out as I fix mine.

Eric
Elite 645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On
Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 1:20 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Looks pretty good, Eric. Your performance is very close to
what Dennis gets
with his on take-off. I have timed his with a passenger and
3/4 fuel at the
lake, and it was less than 15 seconds.

One thing I noticed when flying the Elite on water, is that
the nose does
not come up as high on initial power, even with full up
elevator as with my
Rebel. With Dennis', it is more of a gradual transition onto
the step and
then plane it to lift-off. I don't know if he doesn't have as
much elevator
travel or it is just because of the bigger tail of the Elite.

With my Rebel, the nose really swings high on power up, and
then with
forward elevator just hops straight onto the step, and lifts
off right after
that. Best I could get with the 320, with a good headwind, was
about 10
seconds. But with the 360, I think it is closer to 5, although
haven't had a
chance to video it yet. Of course, I am talking solo with a
light load. A
passenger and full fuel makes quite a difference.

But I do want to try the 3 degrees and see what it does.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On
Behalf Of Eric
Fogelin
Sent: November 23, 2008 12:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I have a half dozen water flights since first flight a few
weeks ago. I like
the performance. I have not flown full gross weight yet, but I
can get off
the water (sea level) at 1900 lbs, light to calm wind (small
water ripples),
at 55F in 10-12 seconds with 2 notches of flaps.

Power has been brought in smoothly and I'm just getting to
full power before
liftoff. I haven't tried a high performance, more flap takeoff
which should
be real short.

Rear of floats are not dragging. I've experimented with
technique, but not
using full elevator on initial start, just aft of neutral, the
floats pop up
on step, no real hump, planes and then liftoff. Nice.

My angle may work due to horsepower and constant speed prop.
I'm running the
Superior XP-O-360 180HP with an MT constant speed prop. My
cruise at 75%
power (2500rpm, 25" MP) is about 100kts IAS. My pitot system
seems pretty
accurate at cruise.

Plenty more testing to do, so I'll post results when there is
something more
conclusive.

Below is a YouTube video showing a landing and takeoff run.
The takeoff is
near the end of the 3.5 minute video. It shows pretty well the float
attitude through the takeoff run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54olsv7kbyc

Thanks,

Eric
Elite 645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On
Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 6:47 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Eric... have you tried getting your Elite to fly off the water
yet @ only
1.7 degrees? Even at 2.3* hard to get them to part the surface
as trying to
rotate the "wing" to get airborne will have you dragging the
rear keel. 3 to
3.5* seems to work best and I've adjusted more than a few and
always end up
at 3.3 to 3.5*'s

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Fogelin" <elist@whidbey.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

tail. The Comm
height can vary
bottom of main
degrees. The
Behalf Of
it sounds
the rudder
Roof. Tail is
theaters, movie news &

more!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075 ... 7/aol?redi

r=htt
p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001)>

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----

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Walter Klatt · Post by **Walter Klatt** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:03 pm

Well, after all the cooling battles I had with my last cowl on the 320, have
to say that I finally got it right the first time with this 360. It cools
beautifully, even better than the best that I finally saw with the 320. And
I really put it to the test last summer in the interior (+35 C).

With the old engine (Lycoming), I had trouble cooling #3 and 4. Not this
one; all cylinders are even in cruise. On climb-out, it is actually #1 and 2
that run a bit higher, but then cool right down with cruise.

What's interesting, though, is that on Dennis' (360 Lycoming), his #3 runs
highest on climb-out (same as my old 320). Yet we have the exact same model
carb on our 360s now. I wonder if this is a difference between Superior and
Lycoming with the Superior sump intakes providing more even mixture
distribution.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Fogelin
Sent: November 23, 2008 9:12 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I did generate a pretty high nose angle when I tried a stick back takeoff in
the Elite. But, it doesn't seem necessary. Since it gets up on step quickly
with a more neutral stick, I don't think I'll normally use the technique.

But, to simulate higher elevation takeoffs, I'll use lower power. Initial
full stick back may be necessary, with stick forward to get over the hump.

Sounds like I get to have a bunch of fun trying things out on the water.

First I need to deal with cooling issues with my speed cowl. Sound familiar?
I've got lots of archive email and photos printed out as I fix mine.

Eric
Elite 645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 1:20 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Looks pretty good, Eric. Your performance is very close to what Dennis gets
with his on take-off. I have timed his with a passenger and 3/4 fuel at the
lake, and it was less than 15 seconds.

One thing I noticed when flying the Elite on water, is that the nose does
not come up as high on initial power, even with full up elevator as with my
Rebel. With Dennis', it is more of a gradual transition onto the step and
then plane it to lift-off. I don't know if he doesn't have as much elevator
travel or it is just because of the bigger tail of the Elite.

With my Rebel, the nose really swings high on power up, and then with
forward elevator just hops straight onto the step, and lifts off right after
that. Best I could get with the 320, with a good headwind, was about 10
seconds. But with the 360, I think it is closer to 5, although haven't had a
chance to video it yet. Of course, I am talking solo with a light load. A
passenger and full fuel makes quite a difference.

But I do want to try the 3 degrees and see what it does.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Fogelin
Sent: November 23, 2008 12:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I have a half dozen water flights since first flight a few weeks ago. I like
the performance. I have not flown full gross weight yet, but I can get off
the water (sea level) at 1900 lbs, light to calm wind (small water ripples),
at 55F in 10-12 seconds with 2 notches of flaps.

Power has been brought in smoothly and I'm just getting to full power before
liftoff. I haven't tried a high performance, more flap takeoff which should
be real short.

Rear of floats are not dragging. I've experimented with technique, but not
using full elevator on initial start, just aft of neutral, the floats pop up
on step, no real hump, planes and then liftoff. Nice.

My angle may work due to horsepower and constant speed prop. I'm running the
Superior XP-O-360 180HP with an MT constant speed prop. My cruise at 75%
power (2500rpm, 25" MP) is about 100kts IAS. My pitot system seems pretty
accurate at cruise.

Plenty more testing to do, so I'll post results when there is something more
conclusive.

Below is a YouTube video showing a landing and takeoff run. The takeoff is
near the end of the 3.5 minute video. It shows pretty well the float
attitude through the takeoff run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54olsv7kbyc

Thanks,

Eric
Elite 645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 6:47 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Eric... have you tried getting your Elite to fly off the water yet @ only
1.7 degrees? Even at 2.3* hard to get them to part the surface as trying to
rotate the "wing" to get airborne will have you dragging the rear keel. 3 to

3.5* seems to work best and I've adjusted more than a few and always end up
at 3.3 to 3.5*'s

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Fogelin" <elist@whidbey.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

My Elite on Murphy 1800 amphibs is 10'-1" to top of the tail. The Comm
antenna on the cabin roof is nearly the same. The tail height can vary
depending on what angle you set your floats.

I set my floats at 1.7 degrees (top of float compared to bottom of main
cabin. Others are setting higher angles: 2, 2.5, 3 and 3+ degrees. The
greater the angle, the lower your tail (by quite a bit).

Eric
Elite 645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
snowyrvr@mtaonline.net
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:31 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Thanks, fellas; we're looking at a hanger with a 10' door so it sounds
pretty good. Craig

Original Message:
-----------------
From: robert@montanasky.us
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:06:22 +0000
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

My Elite on MFC 2200's is also just under 10' w/ the top of the rudder
being the tallest point.
Cheers, Bob 612e
------Original Message------
From: Rebflyer@aol.com
Sender: mike.davis@dcsol.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
ReplyTo: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Nov 17, 2008 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

My Rebel is 9"5" on the Amphibs. MAM 1800"s.
The Highest point is actually the Com antenna on the Cabin Roof. Tail is
about 9'4".
Curt Martin
N97MR

**************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news &

more!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075 ... 7/aol?redi

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Walter Klatt · Post by **Walter Klatt** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:03 pm

Reminds me of the Nimpo lake (3600 elevation) fly-ins. Every time a
floatplane takes off, you see all the pilots looking at their watches. Saw a
Cessna 185 (with the stol kit) take 60 seconds one time, and he was solo.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Fogelin
Sent: November 23, 2008 9:04 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I understand your recommendation. Just to be contrary, I am going to try and
tighten the throat to see if it helps bump up my cruise speed to...200kts.

Just kidding.

I will try raising the rear strut up one or two holes and see what the
cruise speed increase is. I think it will be small to nil. But I'd like to
try.

I say I'm pleased with current water performance because almost all of my
100 hours of float flying has been in straight float Beavers at gross
weight. There have been occasions when I have pushed up against the 1 minute
full power limit before getting off the water. One minute is a long time to
coerce a plane off the water.

So, I'm amazed at how quick this Elite gets off the water as it nears gross
weight.

Great fun.

Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 12:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Thanks Eric. Yes HP does allow for a lower throat angle for sure...but you
can go larger throat angle and use that HP even more to your advantage and
jump out of the water almost skipping the step run stage. If you find you
are going into shorter and shorter lakes give dropping the rear struts a
hole or two a try...you'll be surprised at the difference.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Fogelin" <elist@whidbey.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:15 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I have a half dozen water flights since first flight a few weeks ago. I
like
the performance. I have not flown full gross weight yet, but I can get off
the water (sea level) at 1900 lbs, light to calm wind (small water
ripples),
at 55F in 10-12 seconds with 2 notches of flaps.

Power has been brought in smoothly and I'm just getting to full power
before
liftoff. I haven't tried a high performance, more flap takeoff which
should
be real short.

Rear of floats are not dragging. I've experimented with technique, but not
using full elevator on initial start, just aft of neutral, the floats pop
up
on step, no real hump, planes and then liftoff. Nice.

My angle may work due to horsepower and constant speed prop. I'm running
the
Superior XP-O-360 180HP with an MT constant speed prop. My cruise at 75%
power (2500rpm, 25" MP) is about 100kts IAS. My pitot system seems pretty
accurate at cruise.

Plenty more testing to do, so I'll post results when there is something
more
conclusive.

Below is a YouTube video showing a landing and takeoff run. The takeoff is
near the end of the 3.5 minute video. It shows pretty well the float
attitude through the takeoff run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54olsv7kbyc

Thanks,

Eric
Elite 645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 6:47 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Eric... have you tried getting your Elite to fly off the water yet @ only
1.7 degrees? Even at 2.3* hard to get them to part the surface as trying
to
rotate the "wing" to get airborne will have you dragging the rear keel. 3
to

3.5* seems to work best and I've adjusted more than a few and always end
up
at 3.3 to 3.5*'s

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Fogelin" <elist@whidbey.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

My Elite on Murphy 1800 amphibs is 10'-1" to top of the tail. The Comm
antenna on the cabin roof is nearly the same. The tail height can vary
depending on what angle you set your floats.

I set my floats at 1.7 degrees (top of float compared to bottom of main
cabin. Others are setting higher angles: 2, 2.5, 3 and 3+ degrees. The
greater the angle, the lower your tail (by quite a bit).

Eric
Elite 645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
snowyrvr@mtaonline.net
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:31 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Thanks, fellas; we're looking at a hanger with a 10' door so it sounds
pretty good. Craig

Original Message:
-----------------
From: robert@montanasky.us
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:06:22 +0000
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

My Elite on MFC 2200's is also just under 10' w/ the top of the rudder
being the tallest point.
Cheers, Bob 612e
------Original Message------
From: Rebflyer@aol.com
Sender: mike.davis@dcsol.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
ReplyTo: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Nov 17, 2008 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

My Rebel is 9"5" on the Amphibs. MAM 1800"s.
The Highest point is actually the Com antenna on the Cabin Roof. Tail is
about 9'4".
Curt Martin
N97MR

**************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news
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bransom · Post by **bransom** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:03 pm

Walter,
Are you using a "speed" cowl?
-Ben

Well, after all the cooling battles I had with my last cowl on the 320, have
to say that I finally got it right the first time with this 360. It cools
beautifully, even better than the best that I finally saw with the 320. And
I really put it to the test last summer in the interior (+35 C).

With the old engine (Lycoming), I had trouble cooling #3 and 4. Not this
one; all cylinders are even in cruise. On climb-out, it is actually #1 and 2
that run a bit higher, but then cool right down with cruise.

What's interesting, though, is that on Dennis' (360 Lycoming), his #3 runs
highest on climb-out (same as my old 320). Yet we have the exact same model
carb on our 360s now. I wonder if this is a difference between Superior and
Lycoming with the Superior sump intakes providing more even mixture
distribution.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Fogelin
Sent: November 23, 2008 9:12 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I did generate a pretty high nose angle when I tried a stick back takeoff in
the Elite. But, it doesn't seem necessary. Since it gets up on step quickly
with a more neutral stick, I don't think I'll normally use the technique.

But, to simulate higher elevation takeoffs, I'll use lower power. Initial
full stick back may be necessary, with stick forward to get over the hump.

Sounds like I get to have a bunch of fun trying things out on the water.

First I need to deal with cooling issues with my speed cowl. Sound familiar?
I've got lots of archive email and photos printed out as I fix mine.

Eric
Elite 645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Walter
Klatt
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 1:20 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Looks pretty good, Eric. Your performance is very close to what Dennis gets
with his on take-off. I have timed his with a passenger and 3/4 fuel at the
lake, and it was less than 15 seconds.

One thing I noticed when flying the Elite on water, is that the nose does
not come up as high on initial power, even with full up elevator as with my
Rebel. With Dennis', it is more of a gradual transition onto the step and
then plane it to lift-off. I don't know if he doesn't have as much elevator
travel or it is just because of the bigger tail of the Elite.

With my Rebel, the nose really swings high on power up, and then with
forward elevator just hops straight onto the step, and lifts off right after
that. Best I could get with the 320, with a good headwind, was about 10
seconds. But with the 360, I think it is closer to 5, although haven't had a
chance to video it yet. Of course, I am talking solo with a light load. A
passenger and full fuel makes quite a difference.

But I do want to try the 3 degrees and see what it does.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Fogelin
Sent: November 23, 2008 12:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I have a half dozen water flights since first flight a few weeks ago. I like
the performance. I have not flown full gross weight yet, but I can get off
the water (sea level) at 1900 lbs, light to calm wind (small water ripples),
at 55F in 10-12 seconds with 2 notches of flaps.

Power has been brought in smoothly and I'm just getting to full power before
liftoff. I haven't tried a high performance, more flap takeoff which should
be real short.

Rear of floats are not dragging. I've experimented with technique, but not
using full elevator on initial start, just aft of neutral, the floats pop up
on step, no real hump, planes and then liftoff. Nice.

My angle may work due to horsepower and constant speed prop. I'm running the
Superior XP-O-360 180HP with an MT constant speed prop. My cruise at 75%
power (2500rpm, 25" MP) is about 100kts IAS. My pitot system seems pretty
accurate at cruise.

Plenty more testing to do, so I'll post results when there is something more
conclusive.

Below is a YouTube video showing a landing and takeoff run. The takeoff is
near the end of the 3.5 minute video. It shows pretty well the float
attitude through the takeoff run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54olsv7kbyc

Thanks,

Eric
Elite 645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 6:47 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Eric... have you tried getting your Elite to fly off the water yet @ only
1.7 degrees? Even at 2.3* hard to get them to part the surface as trying to
rotate the "wing" to get airborne will have you dragging the rear keel. 3 to

3.5* seems to work best and I've adjusted more than a few and always end up
at 3.3 to 3.5*'s

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Fogelin" <elist@whidbey.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

My Elite on Murphy 1800 amphibs is 10'-1" to top of the tail. The Comm
antenna on the cabin roof is nearly the same. The tail height can vary
depending on what angle you set your floats.

I set my floats at 1.7 degrees (top of float compared to bottom of main
cabin. Others are setting higher angles: 2, 2.5, 3 and 3+ degrees. The
greater the angle, the lower your tail (by quite a bit).

Eric
Elite 645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
snowyrvr@mtaonline.net
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:31 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Thanks, fellas; we're looking at a hanger with a 10' door so it sounds
pretty good. Craig

Original Message:
-----------------
From: robert@montanasky.us
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:06:22 +0000
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

My Elite on MFC 2200's is also just under 10' w/ the top of the rudder
being the tallest point.
Cheers, Bob 612e
------Original Message------
From: Rebflyer@aol.com
Sender: mike.davis@dcsol.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
ReplyTo: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Nov 17, 2008 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

My Rebel is 9"5" on the Amphibs. MAM 1800"s.
The Highest point is actually the Com antenna on the Cabin Roof. Tail is
about 9'4".
Curt Martin
N97MR

**************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news &

more!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075 ... 7/aol?redi
r=htt
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Richard Wampach · Post by **Richard Wampach** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:03 pm

Your temperature differences could be from one or more causes:

Sometimes the cooling air flow through the baffling can be different at
one or more cylinders; this should show up on the CHT measured at each
cylinder. Another cause can be from the induction systems slight
differences, this could show up on the EGT measured at each cylinder.
You might try using Partial or full Carburetor heat to see if that will
help even out the fuel distribution and thus even out the CHT's,
probably even the EGT's. We do it on several of the R-182's that I
maintain and the pilots are able to operate lean of peak with even
temps, a smooth engine, reduced fuel flow and benefits like the fellows
with GAMI injectors.

Dick Wampach SR-108

-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of bransom@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

Walter,
Are you using a "speed" cowl?
-Ben

Well, after all the cooling battles I had with my last cowl on the 320,
have
to say that I finally got it right the first time with this 360. It
cools
beautifully, even better than the best that I finally saw with the 320.
And
I really put it to the test last summer in the interior (+35 C).
With the old engine (Lycoming), I had trouble cooling #3 and 4. Not this
one; all cylinders are even in cruise. On climb-out, it is actually #1
and 2
that run a bit higher, but then cool right down with cruise.
What's interesting, though, is that on Dennis' (360 Lycoming), his #3
runs highest on climb-out (same as my old 320). Yet we have the exact
same model
carb on our 360s now. I wonder if this is a difference between Superior
and
Lycoming with the Superior sump intakes providing more even mixture
distribution.

Walter
On Behalf Of Eric Fogelin
I did generate a pretty high nose angle when I tried a stick back
takeoff in
the Elite. But, it doesn't seem necessary. Since it gets up on step
quickly
with a more neutral stick, I don't think I'll normally use the
technique.
But, to simulate higher elevation takeoffs, I'll use lower power.
Initial
full stick back may be necessary, with stick forward to get over the
hump.
Sounds like I get to have a bunch of fun trying things out on the water.

First I need to deal with cooling issues with my speed cowl. Sound
familiar?
I've got lots of archive email and photos printed out as I fix mine.

Eric
Elite 645E

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John Peterson · Post by **John Peterson** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:03 pm

Good info. Walter I have the 0320 with the 160 hp and did notice some warm temperatures last summer. Got better as I leaned it out, but would like to see it lower for sure. I don't have the probes on all four cylinders, so not exactly sure what is going on throughout the engine. Probably the same with the back cylinders getting the

WALTER KLATT · Post by **WALTER KLATT** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:03 pm

Probes on all 4 cylinders is a very good thing, especially useful to know on climb-out, because one cyl can heat up way more than the others.

Yes, it was the flat bottom part below the carb, and I did add metal extensions at the sides of that to keep that portion supported and open. I wouldn't bother with adjustable cowl flaps, as I very much doubt that you will ever have too much cooling. Unless you are Steve Sloan, as he is in a different league with this stuff.

One other trick that I have been told helps, is to put a washer at the back of the #3 baffle attachment screw, which allows a little more air through at that point. I have it on mine, and #3 does cool well, but since I have not tried it without, can't confirm that as my reason for good cooling on that cylinder.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: John Peterson <johnspeterson@rogers.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:22 am
Subject: RE: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Good info. Walter I have the 0320 with the 160 hp and did notice
some warm temperatures last summer. Got better as I leaned it
out, but would like to see it lower for sure. I don't have the
probes on all four cylinders, so not exactly sure what is going
on throughout the engine. Probably the same with the back
cylinders getting the warmest as that seems to be the case with
most engines.
When you say you dropped the centre of the speed cowl, does that
mean where the bottom exit is?? I would like to do mine and I
think from talking to Wayne some time ago, he mentioned to cut
that centre piece and pull it down adding some metal support to
keep it open. I plan to do this in the spring. I thought of
trying to make a cowl flap type system on the bottom but still
in the planning stages and not sure if it is worth all the work.

John Peterson

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Subject: RE: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Received: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:49 AM

Yes, I always liked the looks of that cowl, and with my CHTs now
in the low
300's in cruise, no problem with cooling. Oil cooler is on the
right rear
baffle. At this time, with the cooler weather, I have 1/2 of it
blocked off.

People here have often mentioned the need for a larger exit.
While that is
important, the shape of the bottom also matters. You want the
air deflected
not only down, but also to the sides, and make the opening as
wide as
possible. The current speed cowl is actually pretty easy to
modify that way.
All I had to do was drop that centre piece a few inches, and
that did it.

I think a 2.5 inch spacer on the prop helps as well. Had a 2
inch one on my
320, and it was very tight on the right side, which is why
opening the
inlets helped on that one.

Yes, Bruce Georgian did a nice job of having four doors on his, taking
advantage of the existing piano hinges.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On
Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: November 24, 2008 9:06 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I gotta admit, I like the looks of the Rebel with that cowl
enough to maybe
go to the trouble. I know others have reported troubles
too. Do you
recall if it was Bruce Georgen that had the same cowl and did
somethingwith the hinge lines to ease access? (And what
mod he did?) Anyway, glad
to hear the cooling can be accomplished with that cowl.
-Ben

On 11/24/2008 1:38 PM, walter.klatt@shaw.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

Yes, and that is what I had before with my old 320. No
question, there
are challenges with this one. The stock one from MAM might work
for a
wheeled Rebel or Elite, but not a chance on floats. On my first
one I ended
up changing first the exit, and then opening up the inlets a
bit, too. With
this one, I got away with just changing the bottom.
Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: bransom@dcsol.com
Date: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:16 am
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Walter,
Are you using a "speed" cowl?
-Ben

cowl on
the 320, have
this
360. It cools
with
the 320. And
(+35 C).
and
4. Not this actually #1 and 2
Lycoming),
his #3 runs exact same model
between
Superior and
mixture
On
Behalf Of Eric
stick
back takeoff in
on
step quickly
use the
technique.> power. Initial
get
over the hump.
on
the water.
cowl.
Sound familiar?
fix mine.
On
Behalf Of Walter what Dennis gets
and
3/4 fuel at the
that
the nose does elevator as with my

the step and
have as
much elevator
and
then with
lifts
off right after
was
about 10
although
haven't had a
a
light load. A
On
Behalf Of Eric weeks ago. I like
but I
can get off
(small
water ripples), full power before
takeoff
which should technique, but not
the
floats pop up
prop.
I'm running the cruise at 75%
system
seems pretty
is
something more
run.
The takeoff is
float
On
Behalf Of Wayne
water
yet @ only
surface
as trying to
dragging the
rear keel. 3 to
and
always end up
of the
tail. The Comm height can vary bottom of main
3+
degrees. The

Behalf Of
10' door so
it sounds
the top of
the rudder
Cabin
Roof. Tail is theaters, movie news &

more!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075 ... 7/aol?redi
r=htt
p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001)>
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John Peterson · Post by **John Peterson** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:03 pm

Thanks Walter - always good to hear your thoughts.

John Peterson

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, WALTER KLATT <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

From: WALTER KLATT <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: RE: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Received: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 3:31 PM

Probes on all 4 cylinders is a very good thing, especially useful to know on
climb-out, because one cyl can heat up way more than the others.

Yes, it was the flat bottom part below the carb, and I did add metal extensions
at the sides of that to keep that portion supported and open. I wouldn't
bother with adjustable cowl flaps, as I very much doubt that you will ever have
too much cooling. Unless you are Steve Sloan, as he is in a different league
with this stuff.

One other trick that I have been told helps, is to put a washer at the back of
the #3 baffle attachment screw, which allows a little more air through at that
point. I have it on mine, and #3 does cool well, but since I have not tried it
without, can't confirm that as my reason for good cooling on that cylinder.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: John Peterson <johnspeterson@rogers.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 10:22 am
Subject: RE: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Good info. Walter I have the 0320 with the 160 hp and did notice
some warm temperatures last summer. Got better as I leaned it
out, but would like to see it lower for sure. I don't have the
probes on all four cylinders, so not exactly sure what is going
on throughout the engine. Probably the same with the back
cylinders getting the warmest as that seems to be the case with
most engines.
When you say you dropped the centre of the speed cowl, does that
mean where the bottom exit is?? I would like to do mine and I
think from talking to Wayne some time ago, he mentioned to cut
that centre piece and pull it down adding some metal support to
keep it open. I plan to do this in the spring. I thought of
trying to make a cowl flap type system on the bottom but still
in the planning stages and not sure if it is worth all the work.

John Peterson

--- On Tue, 11/25/08, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Subject: RE: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Received: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 9:49 AM

Yes, I always liked the looks of that cowl, and with my CHTs now
in the low
300's in cruise, no problem with cooling. Oil cooler is on the
right rear
baffle. At this time, with the cooler weather, I have 1/2 of it
blocked off.

People here have often mentioned the need for a larger exit.
While that is
important, the shape of the bottom also matters. You want the
air deflected
not only down, but also to the sides, and make the opening as
wide as
possible. The current speed cowl is actually pretty easy to
modify that way.
All I had to do was drop that centre piece a few inches, and
that did it.

I think a 2.5 inch spacer on the prop helps as well. Had a 2
inch one on my
320, and it was very tight on the right side, which is why
opening the
inlets helped on that one.

Yes, Bruce Georgian did a nice job of having four doors on his, taking
advantage of the existing piano hinges.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On
Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: November 24, 2008 9:06 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height

I gotta admit, I like the looks of the Rebel with that cowl
enough to maybe
go to the trouble. I know others have reported troubles
too. Do you
recall if it was Bruce Georgen that had the same cowl and did
somethingwith the hinge lines to ease access? (And what
mod he did?) Anyway, glad
to hear the cooling can be accomplished with that cowl.
-Ben

On 11/24/2008 1:38 PM, walter.klatt@shaw.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

Yes, and that is what I had before with my old 320. No
question, there
are challenges with this one. The stock one from MAM might work
for a
wheeled Rebel or Elite, but not a chance on floats. On my first
one I ended
up changing first the exit, and then opening up the inlets a
bit, too. With
this one, I got away with just changing the bottom.
Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: bransom@dcsol.com
Date: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:16 am
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Rebel Amphib Height
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com

Walter,
Are you using a "speed" cowl?
-Ben

cowl on
the 320, have
this
360. It cools
with
the 320. And
(+35 C).
and
4. Not this actually #1 and 2

cruise.

Lycoming),
his #3 runs exact same model
between
Superior and
mixture
On
Behalf Of Eric
stick
back takeoff in

gets up

on
step quickly

normally

use the
technique.>

lower

power. Initial
get
over the hump.
on
the water.
cowl.
Sound familiar?

as I

fix mine.
On
Behalf Of Walter what Dennis gets
and
3/4 fuel at the
that
the nose does elevator as with my

onto

the step and

doesn't

have as
much elevator

Elite.

and
then with
lifts
off right after
was
about 10
although
haven't had a
a
light load. A
On
Behalf Of Eric weeks ago. I like
but I
can get off
(small
water ripples),

to

full power before
takeoff
which should

technique, but not
the
floats pop up
prop.
I'm running the cruise at 75%
system
seems pretty

there

is
something more
run.
The takeoff is

the

float
On
Behalf Of Wayne
water
yet @ only
surface
as trying to
dragging the
rear keel. 3 to

few

and
always end up

top

of the
tail. The Comm

height can vary

to

bottom of main

3+
degrees. The

bit).

[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On

Behalf Of
10' door so
it sounds

w/

the top of
the rudder

1800"s.

Cabin
Roof. Tail is theaters, movie news &

more!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075 ... 7/aol?redi

r=htt
p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001)>
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you?
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