Diesel engine option

[Mike Davis]

Thielert TAE 125, 135hp turbocharged diesel engines, found @
http://www.thielert.com/en/index.html

Might be a descent consideration for a Rebel or Elite. From their web page
it looks like even though it is only 135hp it generates more thrust than an
O-360. It weighs a little more than an O-320, but less than an O-360. The
fuel consumption, which can be either Jet A1 or automotive diesel, is 70%
less than an O-360. They report that in a C-172 at MTOW the rate of climb
is 680 ft/min.

Diamond aircraft is using this engine in their new Twinstar twin engine
design with MT 3-blade constant speed props.

Mike
195SR




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[klehman]

"More thrust than an 0-360" is a claim that reminds me of comparing
apples and oranges though...

I hear the SMA 230 hp diesel is now certified but I haven't heard any
price mentioned. http://www.smaengines.com/en/product.shtml

Ken

Mike Davis wrote:

Thielert TAE 125, 135hp turbocharged diesel engines, found @
http://www.thielert.com/en/index.html

Might be a descent consideration for a Rebel or Elite. From their web page
it looks like even though it is only 135hp it generates more thrust than an
O-360. It weighs a little more than an O-320, but less than an O-360. The
fuel consumption, which can be either Jet A1 or automotive diesel, is 70%
less than an O-360. They report that in a C-172 at MTOW the rate of climb
is 680 ft/min.

Diamond aircraft is using this engine in their new Twinstar twin engine
design with MT 3-blade constant speed props.

Mike
195SR

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[Nielsenbe]

I tried to e-mail sma but it said invalid user with the north america contact. I mailed the french connection so maybe they will respond.

Brad

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[Rob Luce]

The last I looked, the SMA engine started at 80k US and went up from there.

Here's the one I'm partial too.... http://www.deltahawkengines.com/




----- Original Message -----
From: Nielsenbe@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Diesel engine option


I tried to e-mail sma but it said invalid user with the north america
contact. I mailed the french connection so maybe they will respond.

Brad




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[Jason Beall]

I saw their diesels at the Cranfield fly-in last
summer here in the UK. Really neat engines, and they
come complete with a digital engine monitoring package
that you can download diagnostics onto a pc from. The
entire package was less than 10,000 pounds (apprx
$15,000 USD) if I remeber correctly.

-Jason

=====
________________________________________________

Jason Beall
Super Rebel No. 131
Aberdeen, Scotland, UK
super_rebel131@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/



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[Brian Cross]

Hi Ken

I talked to these folks at Oshkosh. They have absolutely no interest in
the experimental aircraft. They talked about ridiculous costs in the range
of $85,000 US plus installation items that you would need. Installed in a
Cessna 182 - somewhere in the range of $150,000!?! Just nuts. Their booth
was empty & no wonder!

They were going to put in into a Maule & Embry Riddle (Spelling?) was going
to be a test bed for them. They are selling on the fact they you may save
this much money on fuel over the life of the overhaul etc. with nothing
else on the table.

Hopefully they will see the light people stop knocking at their door.

Personally, I waited for years looking for a diesel & was disappointed at
having to put an 0320 under the hood. Nothing wrong with it I guess but no
my idea of fun. Just love those winter starts freezing my rear off waiting
for an hour or two for the engine temps. to climb a few degrees before I
dared start it.

I thought we were in the modern age. Am I ranting yet?

Cheers

Brian #328R

At 01:53 PM 10/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:

"More thrust than an 0-360" is a claim that reminds me of comparing apples
and oranges though...

I hear the SMA 230 hp diesel is now certified but I haven't heard any
price mentioned. http://www.smaengines.com/en/product.shtml

Ken

Mike Davis wrote:

Thielert TAE 125, 135hp turbocharged diesel engines, found @
http://www.thielert.com/en/index.html
Might be a descent consideration for a Rebel or Elite. From their web page
it looks like even though it is only 135hp it generates more thrust than an
O-360. It weighs a little more than an O-320, but less than an O-360. The
fuel consumption, which can be either Jet A1 or automotive diesel, is 70%
less than an O-360. They report that in a C-172 at MTOW the rate of climb
is 680 ft/min.
Diamond aircraft is using this engine in their new Twinstar twin engine
design with MT 3-blade constant speed props.
Mike
195SR

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[Drew Dalgleish]

I've been watching the news on this engine for a while. It looks to be the
most promising of the current crop of deisels since it's based on a
mercedes car engine. Does anyone have any information on this engine as a
stock car engine? I wonder if it makes the same power in a car. What's the
climb rate of a C-172 with a lycosaurus engine.
Drew

At 11:00 PM 10/26/2002 -0800, you wrote:

Thielert TAE 125, 135hp turbocharged diesel engines, found @
http://www.thielert.com/en/index.html

Might be a descent consideration for a Rebel or Elite. From their web page
it looks like even though it is only 135hp it generates more thrust than an
O-360. It weighs a little more than an O-320, but less than an O-360. The
fuel consumption, which can be either Jet A1 or automotive diesel, is 70%
less than an O-360. They report that in a C-172 at MTOW the rate of climb
is 680 ft/min.

Diamond aircraft is using this engine in their new Twinstar twin engine
design with MT 3-blade constant speed props.

Mike
195SR


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[Roger Cole]

I have a Mercedes OM668 1.7-liter diesel on a dynamometer stand. It is used
in the Mercedes A170 car, and it looks a lot like the Thielert engine. In
the car, it makes 88 hp and seems to be almost unbreakable. The car engine
could use an oil cooler since its oil termerature gets uncomfortably hot at
any power level greater than about 75 hp. I suspect that Thielert
eliminates exhaust-gas recirculation. In the car EGR is used only below 3000
rpm (max rpm is 4200). I suspect that Thielert also modified the the
control algorithm for the turbocharger wastegate. The car engine adjusts
the wastegate to maintain 132 ft-lb (180 Nm) of torque from about 1600 rpm
to about 3800 rpm. To do this it gradually decreases the boost pressure as
speed increases above about 3000 rpm. I suspect that Thielert lets the
boost pressure increase at higher rpms so they can get more power.
--
Roger Cole <rcole927@earthlink.net>


----------

From: Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Diesel engine option
Date: Tue, Oct 29, 2002, 7:55 AM

I've been watching the news on this engine for a while. It looks to be the
most promising of the current crop of deisels since it's based on a
mercedes car engine. Does anyone have any information on this engine as a
stock car engine? I wonder if it makes the same power in a car. What's the
climb rate of a C-172 with a lycosaurus engine.
Drew

At 11:00 PM 10/26/2002 -0800, you wrote:

Thielert TAE 125, 135hp turbocharged diesel engines, found @
http://www.thielert.com/en/index.html

Might be a descent consideration for a Rebel or Elite. From their web page
it looks like even though it is only 135hp it generates more thrust than an
O-360. It weighs a little more than an O-320, but less than an O-360. The
fuel consumption, which can be either Jet A1 or automotive diesel, is 70%
less than an O-360. They report that in a C-172 at MTOW the rate of climb
is 680 ft/min.

Diamond aircraft is using this engine in their new Twinstar twin engine
design with MT 3-blade constant speed props.

Mike
195SR


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[Robert Ziegler]

The Thielert seems the ideal modern engine for O-320/360 type aircraft.
It indeed has more static thrust than the O320, because it has more
torque at static RPMs. This means that take off & climb are better.
Cruise power above 6000ft is also higher (as it is a turbo), so get your
Oxygen & you might cruise a Rebel at 140 knots true at 16,000 ft. A
constant speed prop is required there however. So, who is the first to
get an engine mount done for the Thielert/Rebel combination? The engine
is made to fit cowels made for O320s.
The SMA/Renault is a completely different class, competing with IO540/
TIO540 class engines. When comparing prices, make sure you compare a
similar configuration, i.e. accessories etc. I would consider this
engine, if 100LL availability is an issue, like in many areas outside the
US. If you pay several 100 US$ for a barrel of 100LL, if you can get it
at all, a Diesel engine pays for itself quickly! (Also applies for Alaska)
Robert

Hi Ken

I talked to these folks at Oshkosh. They have absolutely no interest in
the experimental aircraft. They talked about ridiculous costs in the range
of $85,000 US plus installation items that you would need. Installed in a
Cessna 182 - somewhere in the range of $150,000!?! Just nuts. Their booth
was empty & no wonder!

They were going to put in into a Maule & Embry Riddle (Spelling?) was going
to be a test bed for them. They are selling on the fact they you may save
this much money on fuel over the life of the overhaul etc. with nothing
else on the table.

Hopefully they will see the light people stop knocking at their door.

Personally, I waited for years looking for a diesel & was disappointed at
having to put an 0320 under the hood. Nothing wrong with it I guess but no
my idea of fun. Just love those winter starts freezing my rear off waiting
for an hour or two for the engine temps. to climb a few degrees before I
dared start it.

I thought we were in the modern age. Am I ranting yet?

Cheers

Brian #328R

At 01:53 PM 10/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:

"More thrust than an 0-360" is a claim that reminds me of comparing apples
and oranges though...

I hear the SMA 230 hp diesel is now certified but I haven't heard any
price mentioned. http://www.smaengines.com/en/product.shtml

Ken

Mike Davis wrote:

Thielert TAE 125, 135hp turbocharged diesel engines, found @
http://www.thielert.com/en/index.html
Might be a descent consideration for a Rebel or Elite. From their web page
it looks like even though it is only 135hp it generates more thrust than an
O-360. It weighs a little more than an O-320, but less than an O-360. The
fuel consumption, which can be either Jet A1 or automotive diesel, is 70%
less than an O-360. They report that in a C-172 at MTOW the rate of climb
is 680 ft/min.
Diamond aircraft is using this engine in their new Twinstar twin engine
design with MT 3-blade constant speed props.
Mike
195SR

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[Rob Luce]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the Thielert be just a -bit- too heavy
for a Rebel. Not to say that it couldn't be rigged to do it, but for a
Rebel? An Elite I could see.

Besides, there are a number of drawbacks to the Thielert, main one being
that the company publishes time between replacement instead of overhaul.
(TBR vs. TBO) When the engine goes the distance, you throw it away. That
might have it's advantages, but I doubt it's actually less expensive to the
homebuilt/kit/sport/experimental crowd.

Rob Luce

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Ziegler" <Robert.Ziegler@usa.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Diesel engine option


The Thielert seems the ideal modern engine for O-320/360 type aircraft.
It indeed has more static thrust than the O320, because it has more
torque at static RPMs. This means that take off & climb are better.
Cruise power above 6000ft is also higher (as it is a turbo), so get your
Oxygen & you might cruise a Rebel at 140 knots true at 16,000 ft. A
constant speed prop is required there however. So, who is the first to
get an engine mount done for the Thielert/Rebel combination? The engine
is made to fit cowels made for O320s.





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[Drew Dalgleish]

Thanks Roger
I see from the mercedes website they've raised the power up to 95hp for
2003. That A170 is a cute little car. Thielert must be running a ton of
boost to get the power up to 135hp. Are you planning to use your engine in
a rebel?
Drew

At 08:53 PM 10/29/2002 -0600, you wrote:

I have a Mercedes OM668 1.7-liter diesel on a dynamometer stand. It is used
in the Mercedes A170 car, and it looks a lot like the Thielert engine. In
the car, it makes 88 hp and seems to be almost unbreakable. The car engine
could use an oil cooler since its oil termerature gets uncomfortably hot at
any power level greater than about 75 hp. I suspect that Thielert
eliminates exhaust-gas recirculation. In the car EGR is used only below 3000
rpm (max rpm is 4200). I suspect that Thielert also modified the the
control algorithm for the turbocharger wastegate. The car engine adjusts
the wastegate to maintain 132 ft-lb (180 Nm) of torque from about 1600 rpm
to about 3800 rpm. To do this it gradually decreases the boost pressure as
speed increases above about 3000 rpm. I suspect that Thielert lets the
boost pressure increase at higher rpms so they can get more power.
--
Roger Cole <rcole927@earthlink.net>


----------

From: Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Diesel engine option
Date: Tue, Oct 29, 2002, 7:55 AM

I've been watching the news on this engine for a while. It looks to be the
most promising of the current crop of deisels since it's based on a
mercedes car engine. Does anyone have any information on this engine as a
stock car engine? I wonder if it makes the same power in a car. What's the
climb rate of a C-172 with a lycosaurus engine.
Drew

At 11:00 PM 10/26/2002 -0800, you wrote:

Thielert TAE 125, 135hp turbocharged diesel engines, found @
http://www.thielert.com/en/index.html

Might be a descent consideration for a Rebel or Elite. From their web page
it looks like even though it is only 135hp it generates more thrust than an
O-360. It weighs a little more than an O-320, but less than an O-360. The
fuel consumption, which can be either Jet A1 or automotive diesel, is 70%
less than an O-360. They report that in a C-172 at MTOW the rate of climb
is 680 ft/min.

Diamond aircraft is using this engine in their new Twinstar twin engine
design with MT 3-blade constant speed props.

Mike
195SR


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[Drew Dalgleish]

Hi Rob
Thielert claims there all up weight is about the same as an 0-320 so it
should be suitable for a rebel. the problem might be that since it's an
inline 4 the CoG could be too far forward. I don't see the 2000hr. TBR as a
problem as very few private planes ever fly that much also since
homebuilders aren't bound by the certification it can probably be rebuilt
by the local mercedes mechanic for a lot less than a lycoming. Theres a
line at oshkosh for homebuilts with over 1000hrs. on them and it's always a
very short line. With the thielert engine and a new 0-320 costing about the
same the savings is in fuel consumption and price.
Drew

At 08:20 PM 10/30/2002 -0600, you wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the Thielert be just a -bit- too heavy
for a Rebel. Not to say that it couldn't be rigged to do it, but for a
Rebel? An Elite I could see.

Besides, there are a number of drawbacks to the Thielert, main one being
that the company publishes time between replacement instead of overhaul.
(TBR vs. TBO) When the engine goes the distance, you throw it away. That
might have it's advantages, but I doubt it's actually less expensive to the
homebuilt/kit/sport/experimental crowd.

Rob Luce

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Ziegler" <Robert.Ziegler@usa.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Diesel engine option


The Thielert seems the ideal modern engine for O-320/360 type aircraft.
It indeed has more static thrust than the O320, because it has more
torque at static RPMs. This means that take off & climb are better.
Cruise power above 6000ft is also higher (as it is a turbo), so get your
Oxygen & you might cruise a Rebel at 140 knots true at 16,000 ft. A
constant speed prop is required there however. So, who is the first to
get an engine mount done for the Thielert/Rebel combination? The engine
is made to fit cowels made for O320s.



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[klehman]

Higher static thrust is not the best comparison. There have been psru
equipped auto conversions with most impressive static thrust numbers
that could not pull themselves out of ground effect. Could the
performance comparison on the Thielert web site be based on a fixed
pitch prop on the Lycoming? That would hardly be a fair comparison
against a variable pitch prop on the Thielert. Until all the details are
forthcoming I personally will consider this engine as probably having
slightly better performance in a Rebel than a 125hp Lycoming with a
variable pitch prop, due to its ability to swing a larger diameter prop.
125 hp at 2300 rpm is not likely to blow the doors off a higher hp.
0-320 or 0-360 rated at 2700 rpm though, providing you've got a prop
that lets you get the higher rpm. The reduced cooling drag of the liquid
cooled engine should be an advantage in cruise, which I think is
indicated by their numbers.

I really do think this is the way of the future for a lot of reasons and
yes I'd prefer it over an 0-320 for my own Rebel. I just like to see
fair comparisons with enough detail to make them meaningful.

Ken

Robert Ziegler wrote:

The Thielert seems the ideal modern engine for O-320/360 type aircraft.
It indeed has more static thrust than the O320, because it has more
torque at static RPMs. This means that take off & climb are better.
Cruise power above 6000ft is also higher (as it is a turbo), so get your
Oxygen & you might cruise a Rebel at 140 knots true at 16,000 ft. A
constant speed prop is required there however. So, who is the first to
get an engine mount done for the Thielert/Rebel combination? The engine
is made to fit cowels made for O320s.
The SMA/Renault is a completely different class, competing with IO540/
TIO540 class engines. When comparing prices, make sure you compare a
similar configuration, i.e. accessories etc. I would consider this
engine, if 100LL availability is an issue, like in many areas outside the
US. If you pay several 100 US$ for a barrel of 100LL, if you can get it
at all, a Diesel engine pays for itself quickly! (Also applies for Alaska)
Robert

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[Roger Cole]

Drew,
The Mercedes engine belongs to my employer, so I have no plan to use it in
an airplane. I am building an Elite, which could take an O-320 or O-360. I
don't see any diesels that would be appropriate for an Elite. The Aussie
Jabiru 8-cylinder engine might be an alternative, but I will wait to see
what the user experience is. I have plenty of time to decide since I am
making slow progress on the tail kit. I might consider an auto conversion.
Do folks on the list server have a favorite? A friend is putting a Mazda
13B Wankel in a KIS Cruiser (fiberglass, low-wing, 4-place). The 3.0-liter
6-cylinder Subaru looks interesting, but it is too new to see any
conversions.
--
Roger Cole <rcole927@earthlink.net>


----------

From: Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Diesel engine option
Date: Thu, Oct 31, 2002, 8:52 AM

Thanks Roger
I see from the mercedes website they've raised the power up to 95hp for
2003. That A170 is a cute little car. Thielert must be running a ton of
boost to get the power up to 135hp. Are you planning to use your engine in
a rebel?
Drew

At 08:53 PM 10/29/2002 -0600, you wrote:

I have a Mercedes OM668 1.7-liter diesel on a dynamometer stand. It is used
in the Mercedes A170 car, and it looks a lot like the Thielert engine. In
the car, it makes 88 hp and seems to be almost unbreakable. The car engine
could use an oil cooler since its oil termerature gets uncomfortably hot at
any power level greater than about 75 hp. I suspect that Thielert
eliminates exhaust-gas recirculation. In the car EGR is used only below 3000
rpm (max rpm is 4200). I suspect that Thielert also modified the the
control algorithm for the turbocharger wastegate. The car engine adjusts
the wastegate to maintain 132 ft-lb (180 Nm) of torque from about 1600 rpm
to about 3800 rpm. To do this it gradually decreases the boost pressure as
speed increases above about 3000 rpm. I suspect that Thielert lets the
boost pressure increase at higher rpms so they can get more power.
--
Roger Cole <rcole927@earthlink.net>


----------

From: Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Diesel engine option
Date: Tue, Oct 29, 2002, 7:55 AM

I've been watching the news on this engine for a while. It looks to be the
most promising of the current crop of deisels since it's based on a
mercedes car engine. Does anyone have any information on this engine as a
stock car engine? I wonder if it makes the same power in a car. What's the
climb rate of a C-172 with a lycosaurus engine.
Drew

At 11:00 PM 10/26/2002 -0800, you wrote: -----------------------------------------------------



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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Roger !

You could certainly go with the 2.5 L Subaru (or the 2.2) -
there are LOTS of those flying ! The old 6 cyl. would be 'way too
much engine for the Elite - great for a Super Rebel, though !! :-)
(Don't know enough about the new 3 L, though ... )
There are companies selling Subaru conversions - Crossflow Engineering
has sold at least 2 of the 6 cyl. EJ-33's to Super Rebel builders ....

At this point, a LOT less expensive than the $85,000 USD quoted
for the Thielert !!! (Heck, you could buy THREE brand new Lycomings
for THAT money !!! )
.....bobp

------------------------------------orig.----------------------------
At 10:14 PM 10/31/02 -0600, you wrote:

Drew,
The Mercedes engine belongs to my employer, so I have no plan to use it in
an airplane. I am building an Elite, which could take an O-320 or O-360. I
don't see any diesels that would be appropriate for an Elite. The Aussie
Jabiru 8-cylinder engine might be an alternative, but I will wait to see
what the user experience is. I have plenty of time to decide since I am
making slow progress on the tail kit. I might consider an auto conversion.
Do folks on the list server have a favorite? A friend is putting a Mazda
13B Wankel in a KIS Cruiser (fiberglass, low-wing, 4-place). The 3.0-liter
6-cylinder Subaru looks interesting, but it is too new to see any
conversions.
--
Roger Cole <rcole927@earthlink.net>


----------

From: Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Diesel engine option
Date: Thu, Oct 31, 2002, 8:52 AM

Thanks Roger
I see from the mercedes website they've raised the power up to 95hp for
2003. That A170 is a cute little car. Thielert must be running a ton of
boost to get the power up to 135hp. Are you planning to use your engine in
a rebel?
Drew

At 08:53 PM 10/29/2002 -0600, you wrote:

I have a Mercedes OM668 1.7-liter diesel on a dynamometer stand. It is used
in the Mercedes A170 car, and it looks a lot like the Thielert engine. In
the car, it makes 88 hp and seems to be almost unbreakable. The car engine
could use an oil cooler since its oil termerature gets uncomfortably hot at
any power level greater than about 75 hp. I suspect that Thielert
eliminates exhaust-gas recirculation. In the car EGR is used only below 3000
rpm (max rpm is 4200). I suspect that Thielert also modified the the
control algorithm for the turbocharger wastegate. The car engine adjusts
the wastegate to maintain 132 ft-lb (180 Nm) of torque from about 1600 rpm
to about 3800 rpm. To do this it gradually decreases the boost pressure as
speed increases above about 3000 rpm. I suspect that Thielert lets the
boost pressure increase at higher rpms so they can get more power.
--
Roger Cole <rcole927@earthlink.net>


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