float build time?

[Drew Dalgleish]

Curt
How long did it take to instal the floats on your plane after you built
them? I should be riveting the bottoms of the second float later this week
and I'm hoping to be ready for oshkosh. Anybody know if you have to fly
another test period when you switch gear in Canada?
Drew Dalgleish
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Drew, looked up my records and I spent 47 hours doing Howard's Amphib
installation, including pump, reservoir, selector, plumbing, x-cables etc,
etc.

As for the "test period" in Canada. The regulations read that as soon as you
install floats or amphibs for the first time (but not skis) your Cof A is
invalid. To be valid you must submit an updated weight and balance to
Transport Canada and a climb test report, for the file they have on your
aircraft. The wording is a real contradiction as it states that your
airplane doesn't have a C of A anymore, yet they want a climb test. What
they actually want is for you to pay $50 to get a flight test permit, so you
can do so and then submit for updating your file and then sit grounded while
they get around to giving you the okay, although there is no C of A to
re-issue so why should you be waiting! They don't bother re-issuing a C of A
with 1730lbs on it as it is standard in the certified world to go up 5% when
on floats, so they leave your existing C of A at 1650 wheels.

Now for "reality"!! Before Jim Pengelly Sr. retired (and can't see it any
different with Wayne Juniper) we did as follows (and I did the same for 4
engine changes that did require getting a new C of A, but never had a wrist
slapped while waiting for it to come for flying based on the cover letter to
TC that I submitted!) and I suggest we keep doing so. Install the airplane
to the amphibs, do the weight and balance to be sure you are alright and
then go out and fly it until you're comfortable (2 or 3 landings with the
"wagon"!). Then load her up and do a climb test. Fill everything out, keep
the original for your records so your plane is legal. Then do a cover letter
for TC stating that you have installed your "Murphy" aircraft to a set of
"Murphy 1800 Amphibs" and have calculated the attached W & B empty and
various configurations and that you have also performed a climb test as
attached at the 1730lb gross specified by "Murphy" for this aircraft, ending
your cover letter with trusting this is everything required for submission
regarding this gear configuration change. Then go have fun, as you have done
your "duty" and submitted the required paperwork to TC. I don't know anyone
with a homebuilt where TC wanted their specific form filled out for a first
time float installation, as is done on a certified aircraft that apparently
also requires an inspection by TC. When we did Howard's, Jim Pengely Sr.
called him up a week less than a year later and stated that "everything
looked fine have fun, goodbye"!

Some think they can just change the information on the Annual Reporting form
the next time it comes in the mail, for floats and engine changes, to be
legal. THIS IS NOT SO! This form has nothing to do with Airworthiness a TC.
It is simply a form that goes to Statistics Canada. If you change something
on your airplane that requires a new W & B, do the paperwork, keep a copy
and send it off to TC with a cover letter just asking to add to your file.
The more you give them, the cleaner you are when push comes to shove and in
the event that you drop your log book into the lake they have copies of
everything on file to keep you flying. IF it wasn't for this kind of paper
submission to TC by the Warplane Heritage Museum, some of their stuff would
still be grounded from their fire where most records were lost, yet TC had
good enough paperwork on them to put them back in the air.

Good Luck with the installation.

If going to Oshkosh, do you have a transponder in you airplane. Had a guy in
our local chapter fly to Newfoundland 3 weeks ago and the short way is to
over fly Maine. He couldn't do it and had to take the long route over
Quebec, as he didn't have a transponder to put a tracking code into. Don't
know if this is a requirement for a flight to cross and land in USA, but you
better make sure and does anyone on line know for sure!?

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:59 PM
Subject: float build time?

Curt
How long did it take to instal the floats on your plane after you built
them? I should be riveting the bottoms of the second float later this week
and I'm hoping to be ready for oshkosh. Anybody know if you have to fly
another test period when you switch gear in Canada?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------

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[Drew Dalgleish]

Wow thanks for all the info Wayne. I talked to Wayne Juniper last winter
about skiis and he wanted much of the same information you're talking
about. New W&B a written description of the skiis and some pictures. Thanks
for the heads up on the transponder I don't have one and I don't have any
intention of getting one so I'll do some research as to wether I can go or
not. I was planning to go around the top of michigan so I should be able to
keep clear of any special airspace.
Drew

At 05:06 PM 7/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:

Drew, looked up my records and I spent 47 hours doing Howard's Amphib
installation, including pump, reservoir, selector, plumbing, x-cables etc,
etc.

As for the "test period" in Canada. The regulations read that as soon as you
install floats or amphibs for the first time (but not skis) your Cof A is
invalid. To be valid you must submit an updated weight and balance to
Transport Canada and a climb test report, for the file they have on your
aircraft. The wording is a real contradiction as it states that your
airplane doesn't have a C of A anymore, yet they want a climb test. What
they actually want is for you to pay $50 to get a flight test permit, so you
can do so and then submit for updating your file and then sit grounded while
they get around to giving you the okay, although there is no C of A to
re-issue so why should you be waiting! They don't bother re-issuing a C of A
with 1730lbs on it as it is standard in the certified world to go up 5% when
on floats, so they leave your existing C of A at 1650 wheels.

Now for "reality"!! Before Jim Pengelly Sr. retired (and can't see it any
different with Wayne Juniper) we did as follows (and I did the same for 4
engine changes that did require getting a new C of A, but never had a wrist
slapped while waiting for it to come for flying based on the cover letter to
TC that I submitted!) and I suggest we keep doing so. Install the airplane
to the amphibs, do the weight and balance to be sure you are alright and
then go out and fly it until you're comfortable (2 or 3 landings with the
"wagon"!). Then load her up and do a climb test. Fill everything out, keep
the original for your records so your plane is legal. Then do a cover letter
for TC stating that you have installed your "Murphy" aircraft to a set of
"Murphy 1800 Amphibs" and have calculated the attached W & B empty and
various configurations and that you have also performed a climb test as
attached at the 1730lb gross specified by "Murphy" for this aircraft, ending
your cover letter with trusting this is everything required for submission
regarding this gear configuration change. Then go have fun, as you have done
your "duty" and submitted the required paperwork to TC. I don't know anyone
with a homebuilt where TC wanted their specific form filled out for a first
time float installation, as is done on a certified aircraft that apparently
also requires an inspection by TC. When we did Howard's, Jim Pengely Sr.
called him up a week less than a year later and stated that "everything
looked fine have fun, goodbye"!

Some think they can just change the information on the Annual Reporting form
the next time it comes in the mail, for floats and engine changes, to be
legal. THIS IS NOT SO! This form has nothing to do with Airworthiness a TC.
It is simply a form that goes to Statistics Canada. If you change something
on your airplane that requires a new W & B, do the paperwork, keep a copy
and send it off to TC with a cover letter just asking to add to your file.
The more you give them, the cleaner you are when push comes to shove and in
the event that you drop your log book into the lake they have copies of
everything on file to keep you flying. IF it wasn't for this kind of paper
submission to TC by the Warplane Heritage Museum, some of their stuff would
still be grounded from their fire where most records were lost, yet TC had
good enough paperwork on them to put them back in the air.

Good Luck with the installation.

If going to Oshkosh, do you have a transponder in you airplane. Had a guy in
our local chapter fly to Newfoundland 3 weeks ago and the short way is to
over fly Maine. He couldn't do it and had to take the long route over
Quebec, as he didn't have a transponder to put a tracking code into. Don't
know if this is a requirement for a flight to cross and land in USA, but you
better make sure and does anyone on line know for sure!?

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:59 PM
Subject: float build time?

Curt
How long did it take to instal the floats on your plane after you built
them? I should be riveting the bottoms of the second float later this week
and I'm hoping to be ready for oshkosh. Anybody know if you have to fly
another test period when you switch gear in Canada?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I've never wanted anyone to know where I was flying before either and even
sold the KX-76A and blind encoder I bought at Osh in '95 from J.A. Air
Center. Now I'm kicking my ass I resold it last year. I sent it in to Field
Aviation before I sold it, for the latest "Free" updates due to recall, and
then sold it at about $400Cdn less than current cost. Now starting to think
it is going to be pretty hard to do any X-country work without one, without
a lot of inconvenience. I know the guys that headed for Alaska were all
hounding my Father-in-law to get one installed before they left (without
him!).

I plan on installing one in FOKM (along with an A/H, D/G and swapping out
the flybuddy Loran for the replacement GX-55R GPS) when I am done doing the
"limousine" thing to these 1500 amphibs. That way she is good to go
anywhere, and will even sit higher in the water when she gets there!!!!

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: float build time?

Wow thanks for all the info Wayne. I talked to Wayne Juniper last winter
about skiis and he wanted much of the same information you're talking
about. New W&B a written description of the skiis and some pictures.

Thanks

for the heads up on the transponder I don't have one and I don't have any
intention of getting one so I'll do some research as to wether I can go or
not. I was planning to go around the top of michigan so I should be able

to

keep clear of any special airspace.
Drew

At 05:06 PM 7/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:

Drew, looked up my records and I spent 47 hours doing Howard's Amphib
installation, including pump, reservoir, selector, plumbing, x-cables

etc,

etc.

As for the "test period" in Canada. The regulations read that as soon as

you

install floats or amphibs for the first time (but not skis) your Cof A is
invalid. To be valid you must submit an updated weight and balance to
Transport Canada and a climb test report, for the file they have on your
aircraft. The wording is a real contradiction as it states that your
airplane doesn't have a C of A anymore, yet they want a climb test. What
they actually want is for you to pay $50 to get a flight test permit, so

you

can do so and then submit for updating your file and then sit grounded

while

they get around to giving you the okay, although there is no C of A to
re-issue so why should you be waiting! They don't bother re-issuing a C

of A

with 1730lbs on it as it is standard in the certified world to go up 5%

when

on floats, so they leave your existing C of A at 1650 wheels.

Now for "reality"!! Before Jim Pengelly Sr. retired (and can't see it any
different with Wayne Juniper) we did as follows (and I did the same for 4
engine changes that did require getting a new C of A, but never had a

wrist

slapped while waiting for it to come for flying based on the cover letter

to

TC that I submitted!) and I suggest we keep doing so. Install the

airplane

to the amphibs, do the weight and balance to be sure you are alright and
then go out and fly it until you're comfortable (2 or 3 landings with the
"wagon"!). Then load her up and do a climb test. Fill everything out,

keep

the original for your records so your plane is legal. Then do a cover

letter

for TC stating that you have installed your "Murphy" aircraft to a set of
"Murphy 1800 Amphibs" and have calculated the attached W & B empty and
various configurations and that you have also performed a climb test as
attached at the 1730lb gross specified by "Murphy" for this aircraft,

ending

your cover letter with trusting this is everything required for

submission

regarding this gear configuration change. Then go have fun, as you have

done

your "duty" and submitted the required paperwork to TC. I don't know

anyone

with a homebuilt where TC wanted their specific form filled out for a

first

time float installation, as is done on a certified aircraft that

apparently

also requires an inspection by TC. When we did Howard's, Jim Pengely Sr.
called him up a week less than a year later and stated that "everything
looked fine have fun, goodbye"!

Some think they can just change the information on the Annual Reporting

form

the next time it comes in the mail, for floats and engine changes, to be
legal. THIS IS NOT SO! This form has nothing to do with Airworthiness a

TC.

It is simply a form that goes to Statistics Canada. If you change

something

on your airplane that requires a new W & B, do the paperwork, keep a copy
and send it off to TC with a cover letter just asking to add to your

file.

The more you give them, the cleaner you are when push comes to shove and

in

the event that you drop your log book into the lake they have copies of
everything on file to keep you flying. IF it wasn't for this kind of

paper

submission to TC by the Warplane Heritage Museum, some of their stuff

would

still be grounded from their fire where most records were lost, yet TC

had

good enough paperwork on them to put them back in the air.

Good Luck with the installation.

If going to Oshkosh, do you have a transponder in you airplane. Had a guy

in

our local chapter fly to Newfoundland 3 weeks ago and the short way is to
over fly Maine. He couldn't do it and had to take the long route over
Quebec, as he didn't have a transponder to put a tracking code into.

Don't

know if this is a requirement for a flight to cross and land in USA, but

you

better make sure and does anyone on line know for sure!?

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:59 PM
Subject: float build time?

Curt
How long did it take to instal the floats on your plane after you built
them? I should be riveting the bottoms of the second float later this

week

and I'm hoping to be ready for oshkosh. Anybody know if you have to fly
another test period when you switch gear in Canada?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------

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[Legeorgen]

Wayne,

A transponder is not required to fly over USA territory unless you are in "C" or "B" airspace such as any major airport l like SeaTac (Seattle) or Spokane International. most smaller general aviation towered airports, like the ones we use, allow flight without an encoding transponder.

Bruce G 357R

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Yes, I know that part Bruce as the same applies in Canada. The question is whether or not you can cross the border without one. Our local club member was refused flight over Maine on his way to Nova Scotia, without a transponder, adding a fair number of hours to his flight by requiring him to take the IFR (I follow road) route through Quebec, New Brunswick and then down to NS.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com (Legeorgen@cs.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: float build time?


Wayne,

A transponder is not required to fly over USA territory unless you are in "C" or "B" airspace such as any major airport l like SeaTac (Seattle) or Spokane International. most smaller general aviation towered airports, like the ones we use, allow flight without an encoding transponder.

Bruce G 357R

[Collins]

Actually, its within 30 nm of the primary airport in a class B.

Bob Collins
Sunnyvale CA USA (less than 30 nm from SFO)

Legeorgen@cs.com wrote:

Wayne,

A transponder is not required to fly over USA territory unless you are
in "C" or "B" airspace such as any major airport l like SeaTac
(Seattle) or Spokane International. most smaller general aviation
towered airports, like the ones we use, allow flight without an
encoding transponder.

Bruce G 357R

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[Rebflyer]

Hi Drew, I think I fussed around for a couple of weeks. Breaking new ground with the bottom of the airplane 56" up in the air made for slow progress. I'm sure Wayne could give a more accurate time line on that. Once the learning curve is there it should only be a one day event I think. Hope to see you at the big OSH Curt N97MR

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Yes a "change over" from floats to wheels or wheels to floats can easily be done in a day, but of course the original installation installing the pump, reservoir, selector, lines, water rudder retract cable, etc, etc is going to take a LOT longer. Like I put in another e-mail, Howard's was about a 47 hour affair to install EVERYTHING and do about 10 retract tests before taking it off blocks and removing the chain falls.

Last fall I took FOKM off the floats, installed onto the wheel gear, weighed her and calculated W & B and then went flying with her in a total of 6 hours. Will let you know later this summer how long it takes to put them back on, once I am done "limosining" the floats. One is "diced and spliced", ready for disassembly/debur, seal and rivet and the other one is cut in half lying on the shop floor!! Anyone interested in a picture of my "madness" just ask! A little more work than I had originally rolled around in my head, but they're going to have an 8" x 24" long locker door in the step area when I am done (and a storage compartment that is 40+ inches long). Had to be creative with bulkhead construction to do this, but I THINK it will be MORE than strong enough considering I replaced the top rails in the area (but on the inside of the float instead) with a 1' x 1' x 1/8" angle AND a 1"d x 3/4"w "T" fastened together to form the inverse shape of the rail profile.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: Rebflyer@aol.com (Rebflyer@aol.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: float build time?


Hi Drew, I think I fussed around for a couple of weeks. Breaking new ground with the bottom of the airplane 56" up in the air made for slow progress. I'm sure Wayne could give a more accurate time line on that. Once the learning curve is there it should only be a one day event I think. Hope to see you at the big OSH Curt N97MR

[Walter Klatt]

OK, Wayne, you got my curiosity. What do you mean by "limosining" the floats? Are you stretching the front portion of the 1800 (or are they 1500's) floats, and I then would have to ask why?

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:21 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: float build time?


Yes a "change over" from floats to wheels or wheels to floats can easily be done in a day, but of course the original installation installing the pump, reservoir, selector, lines, water rudder retract cable, etc, etc is going to take a LOT longer. Like I put in another e-mail, Howard's was about a 47 hour affair to install EVERYTHING and do about 10 retract tests before taking it off blocks and removing the chain falls.

Last fall I took FOKM off the floats, installed onto the wheel gear, weighed her and calculated W & B and then went flying with her in a total of 6 hours. Will let you know later this summer how long it takes to put them back on, once I am done "limosining" the floats. One is "diced and spliced", ready for disassembly/debur, seal and rivet and the other one is cut in half lying on the shop floor!! Anyone interested in a picture of my "madness" just ask! A little more work than I had originally rolled around in my head, but they're going to have an 8" x 24" long locker door in the step area when I am done (and a storage compartment that is 40+ inches long). Had to be creative with bulkhead construction to do this, but I THINK it will be MORE than strong enough considering I replaced the top rails in the area (but on the inside of the float instead) with a 1' x 1' x 1/8" angle AND a 1"d x 3/4"w "T" fastened together to form the inverse shape of the rail profile.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: Rebflyer@aol.com (Rebflyer@aol.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: float build time?


Hi Drew, I think I fussed around for a couple of weeks. Breaking new ground with the bottom of the airplane 56" up in the air made for slow progress. I'm sure Wayne could give a more accurate time line on that. Once the learning curve is there it should only be a one day event I think. Hope to see you at the big OSH Curt N97MR

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Walter they were 1500 amphibs and the plane sat fine while static in the water, but when under power the bows get pulled down (due to the high thrust line of the recommended MAM mounting height, etc) making for an uncomfortable feeling if the water is at all rough. Read water goes over and runs down the float deck!!. Figured while they were off the plane I might as well dice and splice. Took a LOT of staring at them (read DAYS!) after the pen marks, for cuts and reference lines, were laid out all over them before I made the first cut. Then after the first cut was made it was all or nothing, with no turning back!

I cut them in the middle of the existing step area in a stagger, cutting the side skins in front of where the front and rear lower chines intersect and the bottom skin was left intact and drilled off the rear step bulkhead and two false bulkheads forward. Then I cut all the proseal that was left holding them together (using an old saw blade turned into a 3 foot long knife) and "voila", 2 pieces of a float with the front one looking like I could make a PWC out of it.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt (walter.klatt@shaw.ca)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:37 PM
Subject: RE: float build time?


OK, Wayne, you got my curiosity. What do you mean by "limosining" the floats? Are you stretching the front portion of the 1800 (or are they 1500's) floats, and I then would have to ask why?

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com) [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)]On Behalf Of Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:21 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: float build time?


Yes a "change over" from floats to wheels or wheels to floats can easily be done in a day, but of course the original installation installing the pump, reservoir, selector, lines, water rudder retract cable, etc, etc is going to take a LOT longer. Like I put in another e-mail, Howard's was about a 47 hour affair to install EVERYTHING and do about 10 retract tests before taking it off blocks and removing the chain falls.

Last fall I took FOKM off the floats, installed onto the wheel gear, weighed her and calculated W & B and then went flying with her in a total of 6 hours. Will let you know later this summer how long it takes to put them back on, once I am done "limosining" the floats. One is "diced and spliced", ready for disassembly/debur, seal and rivet and the other one is cut in half lying on the shop floor!! Anyone interested in a picture of my "madness" just ask! A little more work than I had originally rolled around in my head, but they're going to have an 8" x 24" long locker door in the step area when I am done (and a storage compartment that is 40+ inches long). Had to be creative with bulkhead construction to do this, but I THINK it will be MORE than strong enough considering I replaced the top rails in the area (but on the inside of the float instead) with a 1' x 1' x 1/8" angle AND a 1"d x 3/4"w "T" fastened together to form the inverse shape of the rail profile.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: Rebflyer@aol.com (Rebflyer@aol.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: float build time?


Hi Drew, I think I fussed around for a couple of weeks. Breaking new ground with the bottom of the airplane 56" up in the air made for slow progress. I'm sure Wayne could give a more accurate time line on that. Once the learning curve is there it should only be a one day event I think. Hope to see you at the big OSH Curt N97MR

[Mike Kimball]

The FARs don't indicate a transponder requirement for crossing the border
although nowadays I always feel better with a discrete code so everyone
knows exactly who I am. I've done plenty of crossings to uncontrolled
fields with no radio contact and the VFR 1200 in my box. After September 11
there might be a new requirement that didn't make it into my 2002 FAR/AIM
book but I haven't heard or read about anything like that. Inside the 30
mile mode C veil associated with Class B airspace or if you like to fly
really high are the only places where you must have a transponder. Anywhere
else, just say "negative transponder" and you shouldn't be denied operation,
however, you won't be able to get radar services.

Mike Kimball
SR#044

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 1:07 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: float build time?


Drew, looked up my records and I spent 47 hours doing Howard's Amphib
installation, including pump, reservoir, selector, plumbing, x-cables etc,
etc.

As for the "test period" in Canada. The regulations read that as soon as you
install floats or amphibs for the first time (but not skis) your Cof A is
invalid. To be valid you must submit an updated weight and balance to
Transport Canada and a climb test report, for the file they have on your
aircraft. The wording is a real contradiction as it states that your
airplane doesn't have a C of A anymore, yet they want a climb test. What
they actually want is for you to pay $50 to get a flight test permit, so you
can do so and then submit for updating your file and then sit grounded while
they get around to giving you the okay, although there is no C of A to
re-issue so why should you be waiting! They don't bother re-issuing a C of A
with 1730lbs on it as it is standard in the certified world to go up 5% when
on floats, so they leave your existing C of A at 1650 wheels.

Now for "reality"!! Before Jim Pengelly Sr. retired (and can't see it any
different with Wayne Juniper) we did as follows (and I did the same for 4
engine changes that did require getting a new C of A, but never had a wrist
slapped while waiting for it to come for flying based on the cover letter to
TC that I submitted!) and I suggest we keep doing so. Install the airplane
to the amphibs, do the weight and balance to be sure you are alright and
then go out and fly it until you're comfortable (2 or 3 landings with the
"wagon"!). Then load her up and do a climb test. Fill everything out, keep
the original for your records so your plane is legal. Then do a cover letter
for TC stating that you have installed your "Murphy" aircraft to a set of
"Murphy 1800 Amphibs" and have calculated the attached W & B empty and
various configurations and that you have also performed a climb test as
attached at the 1730lb gross specified by "Murphy" for this aircraft, ending
your cover letter with trusting this is everything required for submission
regarding this gear configuration change. Then go have fun, as you have done
your "duty" and submitted the required paperwork to TC. I don't know anyone
with a homebuilt where TC wanted their specific form filled out for a first
time float installation, as is done on a certified aircraft that apparently
also requires an inspection by TC. When we did Howard's, Jim Pengely Sr.
called him up a week less than a year later and stated that "everything
looked fine have fun, goodbye"!

Some think they can just change the information on the Annual Reporting form
the next time it comes in the mail, for floats and engine changes, to be
legal. THIS IS NOT SO! This form has nothing to do with Airworthiness a TC.
It is simply a form that goes to Statistics Canada. If you change something
on your airplane that requires a new W & B, do the paperwork, keep a copy
and send it off to TC with a cover letter just asking to add to your file.
The more you give them, the cleaner you are when push comes to shove and in
the event that you drop your log book into the lake they have copies of
everything on file to keep you flying. IF it wasn't for this kind of paper
submission to TC by the Warplane Heritage Museum, some of their stuff would
still be grounded from their fire where most records were lost, yet TC had
good enough paperwork on them to put them back in the air.

Good Luck with the installation.

If going to Oshkosh, do you have a transponder in you airplane. Had a guy in
our local chapter fly to Newfoundland 3 weeks ago and the short way is to
over fly Maine. He couldn't do it and had to take the long route over
Quebec, as he didn't have a transponder to put a tracking code into. Don't
know if this is a requirement for a flight to cross and land in USA, but you
better make sure and does anyone on line know for sure!?

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:59 PM
Subject: float build time?

Curt
How long did it take to instal the floats on your plane after you built
them? I should be riveting the bottoms of the second float later this week
and I'm hoping to be ready for oshkosh. Anybody know if you have to fly
another test period when you switch gear in Canada?
Drew Dalgleish
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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Thanks Mike, maybe they were just hesitant with him just wanting to overfly
without landing as he flew along the border towards NS. I guess if a
straight crossing, with you headed for the customs destination airport, you
are fine without the transponder. I have seen a few articles on border
crossing since Sept 11 and none of them spell out the need for a
transponder, but I thought it may be assumed that we all have them by the
authors.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Kimball" <mkimball@gci.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 4:58 PM
Subject: RE: float build time?

The FARs don't indicate a transponder requirement for crossing the border
although nowadays I always feel better with a discrete code so everyone
knows exactly who I am. I've done plenty of crossings to uncontrolled
fields with no radio contact and the VFR 1200 in my box. After September

11

there might be a new requirement that didn't make it into my 2002 FAR/AIM
book but I haven't heard or read about anything like that. Inside the 30
mile mode C veil associated with Class B airspace or if you like to fly
really high are the only places where you must have a transponder.

Anywhere

else, just say "negative transponder" and you shouldn't be denied

operation,

however, you won't be able to get radar services.

Mike Kimball
SR#044

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 1:07 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: float build time?


Drew, looked up my records and I spent 47 hours doing Howard's Amphib
installation, including pump, reservoir, selector, plumbing, x-cables etc,
etc.

As for the "test period" in Canada. The regulations read that as soon as

you

install floats or amphibs for the first time (but not skis) your Cof A is
invalid. To be valid you must submit an updated weight and balance to
Transport Canada and a climb test report, for the file they have on your
aircraft. The wording is a real contradiction as it states that your
airplane doesn't have a C of A anymore, yet they want a climb test. What
they actually want is for you to pay $50 to get a flight test permit, so

you

can do so and then submit for updating your file and then sit grounded

while

they get around to giving you the okay, although there is no C of A to
re-issue so why should you be waiting! They don't bother re-issuing a C of

A

with 1730lbs on it as it is standard in the certified world to go up 5%

when

on floats, so they leave your existing C of A at 1650 wheels.

Now for "reality"!! Before Jim Pengelly Sr. retired (and can't see it any
different with Wayne Juniper) we did as follows (and I did the same for 4
engine changes that did require getting a new C of A, but never had a

wrist

slapped while waiting for it to come for flying based on the cover letter

to

TC that I submitted!) and I suggest we keep doing so. Install the airplane
to the amphibs, do the weight and balance to be sure you are alright and
then go out and fly it until you're comfortable (2 or 3 landings with the
"wagon"!). Then load her up and do a climb test. Fill everything out, keep
the original for your records so your plane is legal. Then do a cover

letter

for TC stating that you have installed your "Murphy" aircraft to a set of
"Murphy 1800 Amphibs" and have calculated the attached W & B empty and
various configurations and that you have also performed a climb test as
attached at the 1730lb gross specified by "Murphy" for this aircraft,

ending

your cover letter with trusting this is everything required for submission
regarding this gear configuration change. Then go have fun, as you have

done

your "duty" and submitted the required paperwork to TC. I don't know

anyone

with a homebuilt where TC wanted their specific form filled out for a

first

time float installation, as is done on a certified aircraft that

apparently

also requires an inspection by TC. When we did Howard's, Jim Pengely Sr.
called him up a week less than a year later and stated that "everything
looked fine have fun, goodbye"!

Some think they can just change the information on the Annual Reporting

form

the next time it comes in the mail, for floats and engine changes, to be
legal. THIS IS NOT SO! This form has nothing to do with Airworthiness a

TC.

It is simply a form that goes to Statistics Canada. If you change

something

on your airplane that requires a new W & B, do the paperwork, keep a copy
and send it off to TC with a cover letter just asking to add to your file.
The more you give them, the cleaner you are when push comes to shove and

in

the event that you drop your log book into the lake they have copies of
everything on file to keep you flying. IF it wasn't for this kind of paper
submission to TC by the Warplane Heritage Museum, some of their stuff

would

still be grounded from their fire where most records were lost, yet TC had
good enough paperwork on them to put them back in the air.

Good Luck with the installation.

If going to Oshkosh, do you have a transponder in you airplane. Had a guy

in

our local chapter fly to Newfoundland 3 weeks ago and the short way is to
over fly Maine. He couldn't do it and had to take the long route over
Quebec, as he didn't have a transponder to put a tracking code into. Don't
know if this is a requirement for a flight to cross and land in USA, but

you

better make sure and does anyone on line know for sure!?

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:59 PM
Subject: float build time?

Curt
How long did it take to instal the floats on your plane after you built
them? I should be riveting the bottoms of the second float later this

week

and I'm hoping to be ready for oshkosh. Anybody know if you have to fly
another test period when you switch gear in Canada?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------

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[eric.r]

Some "official" was pulling his leg! Can't fly over Maine??? My guess is he
contacted someone who wanted to see if he spoke French ... i.e. gives up
easily. All joking aside, our government officials will never allow common sense
to prevail! I once (knew of a guy) who flew into Wasington State from
Canada flying a Canadian registered helicopter ( no Canadian license!). It
turned out that one of the passengers (japanese) needed a Visa if arriving by
private aircraft! He argued with the Customs official, re-entered the helo with
the passenger and took him direct to the ramp at Vancouver where he
boarded a commercial airline to SeaTac (no visa required!). He returned to
the US, and picked up the other passenger and went on the Sea Tac. (read
two illegal border crossings) The customs official asked what the pilot did
with the "illegal" ... "Oh, just flew out to sea and let him swim in .... I think he
can swim." NOTHING MORE WAS ASKED ... papers filled out and the Agent
was home in time for dinner!
On 7/1/2002 6:30 PM, OIFA@IRISHFIELD.ON.CA wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

-> Yes, I know that part Bruce as the same applies in Canada. The question
is whether or not you can cross the border without one. Our local club
member was refused flight over Maine on his way to Nova Scotia, without a
transponder, adding a fair number of hours to his flight by requiring him to
take the IFR (I follow road) route through Quebec, New Brunswick and then
down to NS.
->
-> Wayne
->
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: Legeorgen@cs.com
-> To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 10:22 PM
-> Subject: Re: float build time?
->
->
-> Wayne,
->
-> A transponder is not required to fly over USA territory unless you are
in "C" or "B" airspace such as any major airport l like SeaTac (Seattle) or
Spokane International. most smaller general aviation towered airports, like the
ones we use, allow flight without an encoding transponder.
->
-> Bruce G 357R
->





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