I continue to have the Rebel bug, but am bothered by some numbers, or lack
thereof...
The Rebel info shows 44mph stall clean, and 40 stall full power and flaps.
That is really about the same as the Vs1 and Vs0 of a C-152, if you'll pardon
my bringing spam into the same paragraph (think Texas Taildragger on 150hp if
you want). Don McCracken, a Rebel owner near me was kind enf to give me a
ride in his (even flew to my airport to pick me up!!), and his Rebel showed
stall burble at 50mph (flaps up/idle). He reported his ASI to be fairly
accurate at that speed, having cross checked with GPS. He accounted for his
faster stall, partially anyway, by being a little heavy (1050? empty), and
toward the forward CG limit. (I would hope that the Rebel stat or 40/44
should be do-able at even close to gross weight and mid-CG.)
Other Rebel posts here have talked about a lot of inaccuracy in reported
speeds near the low end due to AOA of the pitot -- ok, understandable (and
correctable). So, I'm trying to figure out, how bushy is this thing anyway?
Meaning for example:
- What are people really seeing for Vs0 on Rebels with bigger engines?
- How much do flaperons help?
- Any further details avail on performance with McKenzie STOL kit?
Thanks in advance,
-Ben 'I like it slow' Ransom
Davis, Calif
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Bush/STOL characteristics?
-
Rick DeCiero
Bush/STOL characteristics?
You will have to back track through the archives to get a good idea what you
will be in for if you buy and build a standard rebel. It appears that the Vso
will not be the limiting factor in your ability to put down in a short field.
From what I have read here at this site it is the approach speed and your
technique that will mostly influence your bush type landing. Others have advised
here that you not let the A/C get below 70 mph on approach and transition
otherwise you lose elevator authority to arrest the very high sink rate that
develops below this approach speed. This will require power to arrest sink. What
happens if you have to hit the trees with no engine at 70 mph? That is a fairly
high speed for an airplane that has been called "an excellent bush plane". I
havn't flown mine yet so I cannot offer any actual experience.
A lot of us got sucked in to the "if you can stomp a pop can you can build
this airplane" and "400 hour build time" advertising hype that MAC published in
earlier days. I can unequivocally state that it will take you longer than 400
hours to build the airplane properly and that the implied simplicity of building
this airplane is greatly exaggerated. It will take you between 2500 and 3500
hours to get a painted Rebel in the air. If you are contientious you will also
spend hundreds of hours learning THINGS. Oh yeah, thats what experimental
airplanes is all about. "If you can stomp a pop can" you could build the
airplane but you had better bring a whole lot of experienced people in to advise
you. I am sure that many people who have completed this type of A/C are competent
enough to stomp the proverbal "pop can" but you will find that it takes a whole
lot more. EXAMPLE: I saw a Rebel on the line at Sun N' Fun this year with control
cables improperly crimped i.e. there was only one crimp in all of the nicopress
sleeves for the elevator and rudder instead of the required 3 per sleeve for 1/8
cable. These also should be gaged for size after crimping. Who knows what lay
beneath the skins? Oh, by the way, it was for sale, maybe you can pick it up
cheap. Bring along a real good inspector. Another one there on amphibs had only 2
crimps on the rudder cables. I could not see the elev cable because I did not
want to climb on the a/c to look inside. Had a nice paint job though! There were
many other questions that I would liked to have taken up with the owners but they
were not around. I wonder what their build times were? Time spent learning
airplane building stuff?
The Rebel was one of the first a/c of this type on the market and I believe
there are many more options available for the homebuilder today. I still like the
design of the Rebel and the project of getting an airplane like this to the
production floor has been quite sucessful for MAC. The airplane has also proven
itself as an extremely survivable a/c.(See picture of Rebel crash in AK on the
web site.) The self jigging design does work for the basic framing of the a/c,
but it is not the total solution for all of the errors that you could still build
in. Questions that I always ask people wheather they should build an airplane is
this. How old are you and will you be retiring soon? If you are working, have a
family and would like to do all of the work yourself, i.e. electrical, interior,
paint, etc., it will realistically take you between 5- 10 years to get the A/C in
the air. You get parts that don't fit, unclear directions in the assembly manual,
etc,etc,etc..Sure others have done it in less time but think realisticlly, and
have they actually done the work themselves? MAC is a good company to deal with
and I have had them honor issues very long after I had purchased the kit. That
says a lot for their commitment to supporting the product. Enough for now and by
the way these are my own opinions and observations.
Good luck, you'll need it.
Rick D.
Rebel S/N 404R 8 years in June maybe this year, now getting ready for paint.
bransom@dcsol.com wrote:
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will be in for if you buy and build a standard rebel. It appears that the Vso
will not be the limiting factor in your ability to put down in a short field.
From what I have read here at this site it is the approach speed and your
technique that will mostly influence your bush type landing. Others have advised
here that you not let the A/C get below 70 mph on approach and transition
otherwise you lose elevator authority to arrest the very high sink rate that
develops below this approach speed. This will require power to arrest sink. What
happens if you have to hit the trees with no engine at 70 mph? That is a fairly
high speed for an airplane that has been called "an excellent bush plane". I
havn't flown mine yet so I cannot offer any actual experience.
A lot of us got sucked in to the "if you can stomp a pop can you can build
this airplane" and "400 hour build time" advertising hype that MAC published in
earlier days. I can unequivocally state that it will take you longer than 400
hours to build the airplane properly and that the implied simplicity of building
this airplane is greatly exaggerated. It will take you between 2500 and 3500
hours to get a painted Rebel in the air. If you are contientious you will also
spend hundreds of hours learning THINGS. Oh yeah, thats what experimental
airplanes is all about. "If you can stomp a pop can" you could build the
airplane but you had better bring a whole lot of experienced people in to advise
you. I am sure that many people who have completed this type of A/C are competent
enough to stomp the proverbal "pop can" but you will find that it takes a whole
lot more. EXAMPLE: I saw a Rebel on the line at Sun N' Fun this year with control
cables improperly crimped i.e. there was only one crimp in all of the nicopress
sleeves for the elevator and rudder instead of the required 3 per sleeve for 1/8
cable. These also should be gaged for size after crimping. Who knows what lay
beneath the skins? Oh, by the way, it was for sale, maybe you can pick it up
cheap. Bring along a real good inspector. Another one there on amphibs had only 2
crimps on the rudder cables. I could not see the elev cable because I did not
want to climb on the a/c to look inside. Had a nice paint job though! There were
many other questions that I would liked to have taken up with the owners but they
were not around. I wonder what their build times were? Time spent learning
airplane building stuff?
The Rebel was one of the first a/c of this type on the market and I believe
there are many more options available for the homebuilder today. I still like the
design of the Rebel and the project of getting an airplane like this to the
production floor has been quite sucessful for MAC. The airplane has also proven
itself as an extremely survivable a/c.(See picture of Rebel crash in AK on the
web site.) The self jigging design does work for the basic framing of the a/c,
but it is not the total solution for all of the errors that you could still build
in. Questions that I always ask people wheather they should build an airplane is
this. How old are you and will you be retiring soon? If you are working, have a
family and would like to do all of the work yourself, i.e. electrical, interior,
paint, etc., it will realistically take you between 5- 10 years to get the A/C in
the air. You get parts that don't fit, unclear directions in the assembly manual,
etc,etc,etc..Sure others have done it in less time but think realisticlly, and
have they actually done the work themselves? MAC is a good company to deal with
and I have had them honor issues very long after I had purchased the kit. That
says a lot for their commitment to supporting the product. Enough for now and by
the way these are my own opinions and observations.
Good luck, you'll need it.
Rick D.
Rebel S/N 404R 8 years in June maybe this year, now getting ready for paint.
bransom@dcsol.com wrote:
I continue to have the Rebel bug, but am bothered by some numbers, or lack
thereof...
The Rebel info shows 44mph stall clean, and 40 stall full power and flaps.
That is really about the same as the Vs1 and Vs0 of a C-152, if you'll pardon
my bringing spam into the same paragraph (think Texas Taildragger on 150hp if
you want). Don McCracken, a Rebel owner near me was kind enf to give me a
ride in his (even flew to my airport to pick me up!!), and his Rebel showed
stall burble at 50mph (flaps up/idle). He reported his ASI to be fairly
accurate at that speed, having cross checked with GPS. He accounted for his
faster stall, partially anyway, by being a little heavy (1050? empty), and
toward the forward CG limit. (I would hope that the Rebel stat or 40/44
should be do-able at even close to gross weight and mid-CG.)
Other Rebel posts here have talked about a lot of inaccuracy in reported
speeds near the low end due to AOA of the pitot -- ok, understandable (and
correctable). So, I'm trying to figure out, how bushy is this thing anyway?
Meaning for example:
- What are people really seeing for Vs0 on Rebels with bigger engines?
- How much do flaperons help?
- Any further details avail on performance with McKenzie STOL kit?
Thanks in advance,
-Ben 'I like it slow' Ransom
Davis, Calif
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Legeorgen
Bush/STOL characteristics?
Rick,
How do you get three crimps to a nicopress sleeve? The copper sleeve is long enough for only two crimps. Ate you using two sleeves? I was not aware of a required three crimps on a sleeve. You're the first I've heard suggest 3 crimps are required.
I did detect a little cynicism in your response to Ben's question on the Rebel stol capabilities. It is no secret ALL the manufacturers inflate their plane specs and build times. I suspect you had a bad day in shop. Getting tired of the building process? I can relate to that. Between family, work, friends and the plane, there is not much time left for reflection.
I have passed my FAA inspection and have scheduled first flight for July 23. It's a good feeling.
Bruce G 357R
How do you get three crimps to a nicopress sleeve? The copper sleeve is long enough for only two crimps. Ate you using two sleeves? I was not aware of a required three crimps on a sleeve. You're the first I've heard suggest 3 crimps are required.
I did detect a little cynicism in your response to Ben's question on the Rebel stol capabilities. It is no secret ALL the manufacturers inflate their plane specs and build times. I suspect you had a bad day in shop. Getting tired of the building process? I can relate to that. Between family, work, friends and the plane, there is not much time left for reflection.
I have passed my FAA inspection and have scheduled first flight for July 23. It's a good feeling.
Bruce G 357R
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klehman
Bush/STOL characteristics?
Three nicopress crimps are specified in every written article (and
accident report) I've ever seen for 1/8" control cable. I had no
difficulty applying 3 to my cables.
Ken
Legeorgen@cs.com wrote:
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accident report) I've ever seen for 1/8" control cable. I had no
difficulty applying 3 to my cables.
Ken
Legeorgen@cs.com wrote:
Rick,
How do you get three crimps to a nicopress sleeve? The copper sleeve
is long enough for only two crimps. Ate you using two sleeves? I was
not aware of a required three crimps on a sleeve. You're the first
I've heard suggest 3 crimps are required.
I did detect a little cynicism in your response to Ben's question on
the Rebel stol capabilities. It is no secret ALL the manufacturers
inflate their plane specs and build times. I suspect you had a bad
day in shop. Getting tired of the building process? I can relate to
that. Between family, work, friends and the plane, there is not much
time left for reflection.
I have passed my FAA inspection and have scheduled first flight for
July 23. It's a good feeling.
Bruce G 357R
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klehman
Bush/STOL characteristics?
I pretty much agree with what Rick has said but I would add two
comments. The first is that several people who have experience with
multiple homebuilts have told me that Murphy is the very best or one of
the two best kit suppliers in business which I think is correct. I only
have experience with the Rebel but I'm still very happy with my choice
of aircraft.
The second comment is that the same airfoil is used on the Otter (8000#
gross and 58' wingspan IIRC) and I can tell you that there it behaved
like a high performance wing. If the descent rate was high you could not
flare at STOL approach speeds (55 to 60 knots) without power. Elevator
authority was not the issue. You could raise the nose but the descent
rate didn't change without some power. Getting a blip of power out of
that R-1340 radial engine on occasion caused a miss or two out of both
the engine and the pilot's heartbeat. The Otter did have more flap
(drag) than a Rebel. At faster approach speeds (even 65 knots) it would
flare much like a Cessna though. Stalling speeds were in the 40 knot
range with power IIRC. Obstacle clearance climb speed with flap and out
of ground effect was 55 knots. I have never flown a Rebel but the
discussions here have often reminded me of the above example. After
careful reading of all the archives I did elect to move my firewall back
and I do have the recommended 25+ degrees of up elevator on my Rebel.
For small lakes I still suspect that takeoff distance is going to be
more interesting that landing distance but everybody says the Rebel does
great short takeoffs and that is what I'm after. So far I'm still a
happy camper even if I'm behind schedule a bit :)
Ken
R119 has the rivets in and we're slowly adding the systems and such
Rick DeCiero wrote:
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comments. The first is that several people who have experience with
multiple homebuilts have told me that Murphy is the very best or one of
the two best kit suppliers in business which I think is correct. I only
have experience with the Rebel but I'm still very happy with my choice
of aircraft.
The second comment is that the same airfoil is used on the Otter (8000#
gross and 58' wingspan IIRC) and I can tell you that there it behaved
like a high performance wing. If the descent rate was high you could not
flare at STOL approach speeds (55 to 60 knots) without power. Elevator
authority was not the issue. You could raise the nose but the descent
rate didn't change without some power. Getting a blip of power out of
that R-1340 radial engine on occasion caused a miss or two out of both
the engine and the pilot's heartbeat. The Otter did have more flap
(drag) than a Rebel. At faster approach speeds (even 65 knots) it would
flare much like a Cessna though. Stalling speeds were in the 40 knot
range with power IIRC. Obstacle clearance climb speed with flap and out
of ground effect was 55 knots. I have never flown a Rebel but the
discussions here have often reminded me of the above example. After
careful reading of all the archives I did elect to move my firewall back
and I do have the recommended 25+ degrees of up elevator on my Rebel.
For small lakes I still suspect that takeoff distance is going to be
more interesting that landing distance but everybody says the Rebel does
great short takeoffs and that is what I'm after. So far I'm still a
happy camper even if I'm behind schedule a bit :)
Ken
R119 has the rivets in and we're slowly adding the systems and such
Rick DeCiero wrote:
You will have to back track through the archives to get a good idea what you
will be in for if you buy and build a standard rebel. It appears that the
snip
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Wayne G. O'Shea
Bush/STOL characteristics?
Congratulations on passing your final "exam" Bruce! Good luck with your test flying!!!!!!!! :>)
Ken is right though, all publications regarding cable fabrication, that I have read, specify 3 swages on an 1/8" NICO sleeve. First you clip the points off the thimble, assemble and make the first press in the middle, 2nd press at the end against the thimble and finally another press at the other end. Lots of room using the proper swaging tools and since the NICO grows from about 9/16 to 3/4" while you are squashing it you could actually get 4 squeezes on the thing but that would totally deform it. I have also seen some of the older gentlemen, that have been around aviation for 50 + years, use a second nico with 2 crimps on it as a keeper to cover the cut cable end in addition to the 3 crimped nico (but I think this is overkill). I have never seen this double nico publicized in an "official" document, although I have seen it written up in our Canadian Rec Flyer magazine by one of the older builders. Also don't forget that the aviation style swaging tool comes with those "wrenches" for a reason. They are actually check gauges to make sure the tool is set correctly and making the proper swage depth.
Your cables having only 2 crimps are PROBABLY alright considering for 3/32 cable AC43.13-1B spells out that only 1 crimp is required. If Rick is right about the Rebel in Florida, with only 1 crimp per nico, it's an air disaster just waiting to happen. I remember reading an accident report for a Rebel that, I believe, Keith Kinden was flying with a purchaser/customer that crashed after a nico let go on a cable. Maybe someone that knows Keith well could ask him how many crimps were on that sleeve!!
Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca
Ken is right though, all publications regarding cable fabrication, that I have read, specify 3 swages on an 1/8" NICO sleeve. First you clip the points off the thimble, assemble and make the first press in the middle, 2nd press at the end against the thimble and finally another press at the other end. Lots of room using the proper swaging tools and since the NICO grows from about 9/16 to 3/4" while you are squashing it you could actually get 4 squeezes on the thing but that would totally deform it. I have also seen some of the older gentlemen, that have been around aviation for 50 + years, use a second nico with 2 crimps on it as a keeper to cover the cut cable end in addition to the 3 crimped nico (but I think this is overkill). I have never seen this double nico publicized in an "official" document, although I have seen it written up in our Canadian Rec Flyer magazine by one of the older builders. Also don't forget that the aviation style swaging tool comes with those "wrenches" for a reason. They are actually check gauges to make sure the tool is set correctly and making the proper swage depth.
Your cables having only 2 crimps are PROBABLY alright considering for 3/32 cable AC43.13-1B spells out that only 1 crimp is required. If Rick is right about the Rebel in Florida, with only 1 crimp per nico, it's an air disaster just waiting to happen. I remember reading an accident report for a Rebel that, I believe, Keith Kinden was flying with a purchaser/customer that crashed after a nico let go on a cable. Maybe someone that knows Keith well could ask him how many crimps were on that sleeve!!
Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com (Legeorgen@cs.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: Bush/STOL characteristics?
Rick,
How do you get three crimps to a nicopress sleeve? The copper sleeve is long enough for only two crimps. Ate you using two sleeves? I was not aware of a required three crimps on a sleeve. You're the first I've heard suggest 3 crimps are required.
I did detect a little cynicism in your response to Ben's question on the Rebel stol capabilities. It is no secret ALL the manufacturers inflate their plane specs and build times. I suspect you had a bad day in shop. Getting tired of the building process? I can relate to that. Between family, work, friends and the plane, there is not much time left for reflection.
I have passed my FAA inspection and have scheduled first flight for July 23. It's a good feeling.
Bruce G 357R
-
Terry L McClary
Bush/STOL characteristics?
Bruce,
In A&P school they teach 3 crimps on a nicropress sleeve. 1st crimp is typically in the middle and then 1 on each side.
I decided to look at AC 43.13-1B for guidance. 7-148 Mechanically-Fabricated Cable Assemblies describes Nicopress in paragraph 4(b). The text references table 7- and table 7-7 for "details on sleeves, tools, and the number presses required for the various sizes of aircraft cable." The number of presses can vary from 1 to 4, depending upon the defined parameters.
Terry
R666
On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:20:05 EDT Legeorgen@cs.com (Legeorgen@cs.com) writes:
In A&P school they teach 3 crimps on a nicropress sleeve. 1st crimp is typically in the middle and then 1 on each side.
I decided to look at AC 43.13-1B for guidance. 7-148 Mechanically-Fabricated Cable Assemblies describes Nicopress in paragraph 4(b). The text references table 7- and table 7-7 for "details on sleeves, tools, and the number presses required for the various sizes of aircraft cable." The number of presses can vary from 1 to 4, depending upon the defined parameters.
Terry
R666
On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:20:05 EDT Legeorgen@cs.com (Legeorgen@cs.com) writes:
Rick,
How do you get three crimps to a nicopress sleeve? The copper sleeve is long enough for only two crimps. Ate you using two sleeves? I was not aware of a required three crimps on a sleeve. You're the first I've heard suggest 3 crimps are required
Snip---
.
Bruce G 357R
-
bransom
Bush/STOL characteristics?
Thanks for the comments so far.
As to the side comments about long build time and learning THINGS, yeah, I'm
aware of that. And, IMO, it will be worth it if I can pick the right plane
for the kind of flying I want to do.
I had not fully appreciated the *requirement* for high approach speed in this
airplane. I guess with Bush planes in general, you want the high drag on
approach to get the steep decent sometimes required, but then you darn well
better have the right wing and perhaps some power to flare and kiss. I see
from other past posts about adding VGs to the bottom of the horiz stabilizer
to increase pitch up ability and thereby improve the "parachute in" flare to a
lower Vso. On the other hand, Bob has advised against wing VGs because, if I
rememeber correctly, they almost eliminate stall/spin clues, eliminate the
ability to intentionally spin and at the same time retain a very high sink
rate at about the same Vso as before. (correct at will)
Other planes I'm considering are primarily a Kitfox5. The Rebel is much nicer
in being a metal plane (IMO), has much better baggage volume and access, and a
few other advantages. But, so far, pilot reports on the KF are that 40mph
stall is accurate, and apparently Skydance has a different flaperon now that
gets their Vso even a tad lower. I will get myself a ride at some point to see
for myself. It still somewhat surprises me that experimental category designs
seem to have had a somewhat tougher time outdoing commercial options (notably
supercub) in the STOL and getting_it_slow category. Very notable exceptions
(in the 2-place size) are the "take-offs" from the supercub such as the North
Star and DakotaCub. These appear to be real gems, and yeah, they have prices
to match. With fences and leading edge cuffs on the Dakota, did you see
the 'builder completion' report in a recent Sport Aviation with the comment of
17mph stall!? I'm not really after a helicopter, and although I'm just your
layman armchair aerodynamicist, it still seems hard to figure why nobody has
gotten a Rebel or KF mod that would keep them flying at 30mph.
Hope you all don't mind my bringing up other aircraft on the Rebel list -- I'm
just wanting to see what you guys think on some of the comparitive trade-offs.
Thanks again,
-Ben Ransom
my past pop-can fun at http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~ransom
On 6/30/02 8:52 AM, KLEHMAN@ALBEDO.NET wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
-> I pretty much agree with what Rick has said but I would add two
-> comments. The first is that several people who have experience with
-> multiple homebuilts have told me that Murphy is the very best or one of
-> the two best kit suppliers in business which I think is correct. I only
-> have experience with the Rebel but I'm still very happy with my choice
-> of aircraft.
->
-> The second comment is that the same airfoil is used on the Otter (8000#
-> gross and 58' wingspan IIRC) and I can tell you that there it behaved
-> like a high performance wing. If the descent rate was high you could not
-> flare at STOL approach speeds (55 to 60 knots) without power. Elevator
-> authority was not the issue. You could raise the nose but the descent
-> rate didn't change without some power. Getting a blip of power out of
-> that R-1340 radial engine on occasion caused a miss or two out of both
-> the engine and the pilot's heartbeat. The Otter did have more flap
-> (drag) than a Rebel. At faster approach speeds (even 65 knots) it would
-> flare much like a Cessna though. Stalling speeds were in the 40 knot
-> range with power IIRC. Obstacle clearance climb speed with flap and out
-> of ground effect was 55 knots. I have never flown a Rebel but the
-> discussions here have often reminded me of the above example. After
-> careful reading of all the archives I did elect to move my firewall back
-> and I do have the recommended 25+ degrees of up elevator on my Rebel.
-> For small lakes I still suspect that takeoff distance is going to be
-> more interesting that landing distance but everybody says the Rebel does
-> great short takeoffs and that is what I'm after. So far I'm still a
-> happy camper even if I'm behind schedule a bit :)
-> Ken
-> R119 has the rivets in and we're slowly adding the systems and such
->
-> Rick DeCiero wrote:
-> >
-> > You will have to back track through the archives to get a good idea
what you
-> > will be in for if you buy and build a standard rebel. It appears that the
-> >snip
->
->
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As to the side comments about long build time and learning THINGS, yeah, I'm
aware of that. And, IMO, it will be worth it if I can pick the right plane
for the kind of flying I want to do.
I had not fully appreciated the *requirement* for high approach speed in this
airplane. I guess with Bush planes in general, you want the high drag on
approach to get the steep decent sometimes required, but then you darn well
better have the right wing and perhaps some power to flare and kiss. I see
from other past posts about adding VGs to the bottom of the horiz stabilizer
to increase pitch up ability and thereby improve the "parachute in" flare to a
lower Vso. On the other hand, Bob has advised against wing VGs because, if I
rememeber correctly, they almost eliminate stall/spin clues, eliminate the
ability to intentionally spin and at the same time retain a very high sink
rate at about the same Vso as before. (correct at will)
Other planes I'm considering are primarily a Kitfox5. The Rebel is much nicer
in being a metal plane (IMO), has much better baggage volume and access, and a
few other advantages. But, so far, pilot reports on the KF are that 40mph
stall is accurate, and apparently Skydance has a different flaperon now that
gets their Vso even a tad lower. I will get myself a ride at some point to see
for myself. It still somewhat surprises me that experimental category designs
seem to have had a somewhat tougher time outdoing commercial options (notably
supercub) in the STOL and getting_it_slow category. Very notable exceptions
(in the 2-place size) are the "take-offs" from the supercub such as the North
Star and DakotaCub. These appear to be real gems, and yeah, they have prices
to match. With fences and leading edge cuffs on the Dakota, did you see
the 'builder completion' report in a recent Sport Aviation with the comment of
17mph stall!? I'm not really after a helicopter, and although I'm just your
layman armchair aerodynamicist, it still seems hard to figure why nobody has
gotten a Rebel or KF mod that would keep them flying at 30mph.
Hope you all don't mind my bringing up other aircraft on the Rebel list -- I'm
just wanting to see what you guys think on some of the comparitive trade-offs.
Thanks again,
-Ben Ransom
my past pop-can fun at http://mae.ucdavis.edu/~ransom
On 6/30/02 8:52 AM, KLEHMAN@ALBEDO.NET wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
-> I pretty much agree with what Rick has said but I would add two
-> comments. The first is that several people who have experience with
-> multiple homebuilts have told me that Murphy is the very best or one of
-> the two best kit suppliers in business which I think is correct. I only
-> have experience with the Rebel but I'm still very happy with my choice
-> of aircraft.
->
-> The second comment is that the same airfoil is used on the Otter (8000#
-> gross and 58' wingspan IIRC) and I can tell you that there it behaved
-> like a high performance wing. If the descent rate was high you could not
-> flare at STOL approach speeds (55 to 60 knots) without power. Elevator
-> authority was not the issue. You could raise the nose but the descent
-> rate didn't change without some power. Getting a blip of power out of
-> that R-1340 radial engine on occasion caused a miss or two out of both
-> the engine and the pilot's heartbeat. The Otter did have more flap
-> (drag) than a Rebel. At faster approach speeds (even 65 knots) it would
-> flare much like a Cessna though. Stalling speeds were in the 40 knot
-> range with power IIRC. Obstacle clearance climb speed with flap and out
-> of ground effect was 55 knots. I have never flown a Rebel but the
-> discussions here have often reminded me of the above example. After
-> careful reading of all the archives I did elect to move my firewall back
-> and I do have the recommended 25+ degrees of up elevator on my Rebel.
-> For small lakes I still suspect that takeoff distance is going to be
-> more interesting that landing distance but everybody says the Rebel does
-> great short takeoffs and that is what I'm after. So far I'm still a
-> happy camper even if I'm behind schedule a bit :)
-> Ken
-> R119 has the rivets in and we're slowly adding the systems and such
->
-> Rick DeCiero wrote:
-> >
-> > You will have to back track through the archives to get a good idea
what you
-> > will be in for if you buy and build a standard rebel. It appears that the
-> >snip
->
->
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csgill
Bush/STOL characteristics?
Ben,
I read a response to your email below talking about the amount of time it
takes to build a Rebel. For the record, I built (and have 1 year of awsome
flying) on one of the first Super Rebel 'slow' build kits. I started building
with my Dads help, got married, popped out two kids and got done in 4 years.
And realize this was one of the very first SR's and we were working with a
less than complete manual. This was also our first plane. Murphy support was
excellent and I'm still married (happily). All it took was perseverance, a
lot of late nights, an understanding wife (who doesn't even list flying as her
#1 goal in life) and no set schedule, we just kept plugging along. It can be
done.
Chris Gill
Anchorage, AK
SR#025
On 6/30/02 12:38 PM, BRANSOM wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
-> I continue to have the Rebel bug, but am bothered by some numbers, or lack
-> thereof...
->
-> The Rebel info shows 44mph stall clean, and 40 stall full power and flaps.
-> That is really about the same as the Vs1 and Vs0 of a C-152, if you'll
pardon
-> my bringing spam into the same paragraph (think Texas Taildragger on 150hp
if
-> you want). Don McCracken, a Rebel owner near me was kind enf to give me a
-> ride in his (even flew to my airport to pick me up!!), and his Rebel showed
-> stall burble at 50mph (flaps up/idle). He reported his ASI to be fairly
-> accurate at that speed, having cross checked with GPS. He accounted for
his
-> faster stall, partially anyway, by being a little heavy (1050? empty), and
-> toward the forward CG limit. (I would hope that the Rebel stat or 40/44
-> should be do-able at even close to gross weight and mid-CG.)
->
-> Other Rebel posts here have talked about a lot of inaccuracy in reported
-> speeds near the low end due to AOA of the pitot -- ok, understandable (and
-> correctable). So, I'm trying to figure out, how bushy is this thing
anyway?
-> Meaning for example:
-> - What are people really seeing for Vs0 on Rebels with bigger engines?
-> - How much do flaperons help?
-> - Any further details avail on performance with McKenzie STOL kit?
->
-> Thanks in advance,
-> -Ben 'I like it slow' Ransom
-> Davis, Calif
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I read a response to your email below talking about the amount of time it
takes to build a Rebel. For the record, I built (and have 1 year of awsome
flying) on one of the first Super Rebel 'slow' build kits. I started building
with my Dads help, got married, popped out two kids and got done in 4 years.
And realize this was one of the very first SR's and we were working with a
less than complete manual. This was also our first plane. Murphy support was
excellent and I'm still married (happily). All it took was perseverance, a
lot of late nights, an understanding wife (who doesn't even list flying as her
#1 goal in life) and no set schedule, we just kept plugging along. It can be
done.
Chris Gill
Anchorage, AK
SR#025
On 6/30/02 12:38 PM, BRANSOM wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
-> I continue to have the Rebel bug, but am bothered by some numbers, or lack
-> thereof...
->
-> The Rebel info shows 44mph stall clean, and 40 stall full power and flaps.
-> That is really about the same as the Vs1 and Vs0 of a C-152, if you'll
pardon
-> my bringing spam into the same paragraph (think Texas Taildragger on 150hp
if
-> you want). Don McCracken, a Rebel owner near me was kind enf to give me a
-> ride in his (even flew to my airport to pick me up!!), and his Rebel showed
-> stall burble at 50mph (flaps up/idle). He reported his ASI to be fairly
-> accurate at that speed, having cross checked with GPS. He accounted for
his
-> faster stall, partially anyway, by being a little heavy (1050? empty), and
-> toward the forward CG limit. (I would hope that the Rebel stat or 40/44
-> should be do-able at even close to gross weight and mid-CG.)
->
-> Other Rebel posts here have talked about a lot of inaccuracy in reported
-> speeds near the low end due to AOA of the pitot -- ok, understandable (and
-> correctable). So, I'm trying to figure out, how bushy is this thing
anyway?
-> Meaning for example:
-> - What are people really seeing for Vs0 on Rebels with bigger engines?
-> - How much do flaperons help?
-> - Any further details avail on performance with McKenzie STOL kit?
->
-> Thanks in advance,
-> -Ben 'I like it slow' Ransom
-> Davis, Calif
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Rick DeCiero
Bush/STOL characteristics?
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> Bruce,
I read all of today's responses on this and I will now tell you how I got the required three crimps on my 1/8 cables. It is always interesting to read how others have had no problem with this issue. I had several problems with it. I must be just a bad mechanic. First off I used the larger of the two "Economy nicopress swaging tool" listed in Aircraft Spruce Catalog ( number 3 SWAGE-IT ). I don't know if the width of the crimp is larger than the no. 2 tool. Second, the instructions with the tool differ from those of AC 43.13. The tool instructions tell you to form the first crimp right next to the loop, AC43.13 says to crimp middle one first. Who to believe? I bought a few extra sleeves with my next order to Aircraft Spruce and did some testing. You need to clip the ends of the sleeve so that they do not slide into the sleeve. I then crimped some with the crimping done per the tool instructions and then some with AC 43.13 technique. I made a short cable with both ends assembled and then tested it to destruction in a pulling press. The cable broke before the sleeves let go. Upon close examination of the sleeves no one seemed to perform differently than the other. I found that the AC 43.13 method worked more consistantly but you must center the sleeve very carefully in the tool. I use a vernier caliper to set the sleeve in the center of the tool. The sleeve then elongates on each end. You must get the tool very close to the center swedge in order to get a good looking result. I advise testing a few and then write down your info for future use. Bruce, you sound like a person that can take advise, call it cynicism if you want, but if I save your life by sharing whatever knowledge I can it will have been worth it to the aviation community and your family probably would not mind either or would they? How did something like this get past the inspector? I plan to leave my a/c at my the local A&P shop while doing final assembly for him to inspect at his leisure.
Wayne, just what do you mean by "If Rick is right about the Rebel in Florida, with only 1 crimp per nico," don't you think I can count? Just kidding, don't get mad on us, you have given the builders here many valuable tips. Do I sound like one who beats around the bush! If so, I'll crank it up a few notches. No BS, just the facts please!!! It sure did have only one and it was only one on all of the rudder AND elevator cables. I even saw this at S n' F in 2001 but only saw the rudder ones. I didn't try to notify the builder at the time thinking that I would see him around sometime during the event. Well, at S n' F 2002 I saw the same a/c and then looked inside at the elevator cables on the control column and sure enough those had only one crimp. It was at this time that I took one of the FOR SALE flyers that the owner had attached and wrote him a note about this extremely dangerous condition. I hope he fixed it.
Enough for now,
Good luck, you'll need it.
Rick D.
Legeorgen@cs.com wrote:
I read all of today's responses on this and I will now tell you how I got the required three crimps on my 1/8 cables. It is always interesting to read how others have had no problem with this issue. I had several problems with it. I must be just a bad mechanic. First off I used the larger of the two "Economy nicopress swaging tool" listed in Aircraft Spruce Catalog ( number 3 SWAGE-IT ). I don't know if the width of the crimp is larger than the no. 2 tool. Second, the instructions with the tool differ from those of AC 43.13. The tool instructions tell you to form the first crimp right next to the loop, AC43.13 says to crimp middle one first. Who to believe? I bought a few extra sleeves with my next order to Aircraft Spruce and did some testing. You need to clip the ends of the sleeve so that they do not slide into the sleeve. I then crimped some with the crimping done per the tool instructions and then some with AC 43.13 technique. I made a short cable with both ends assembled and then tested it to destruction in a pulling press. The cable broke before the sleeves let go. Upon close examination of the sleeves no one seemed to perform differently than the other. I found that the AC 43.13 method worked more consistantly but you must center the sleeve very carefully in the tool. I use a vernier caliper to set the sleeve in the center of the tool. The sleeve then elongates on each end. You must get the tool very close to the center swedge in order to get a good looking result. I advise testing a few and then write down your info for future use. Bruce, you sound like a person that can take advise, call it cynicism if you want, but if I save your life by sharing whatever knowledge I can it will have been worth it to the aviation community and your family probably would not mind either or would they? How did something like this get past the inspector? I plan to leave my a/c at my the local A&P shop while doing final assembly for him to inspect at his leisure.
Wayne, just what do you mean by "If Rick is right about the Rebel in Florida, with only 1 crimp per nico," don't you think I can count? Just kidding, don't get mad on us, you have given the builders here many valuable tips. Do I sound like one who beats around the bush! If so, I'll crank it up a few notches. No BS, just the facts please!!! It sure did have only one and it was only one on all of the rudder AND elevator cables. I even saw this at S n' F in 2001 but only saw the rudder ones. I didn't try to notify the builder at the time thinking that I would see him around sometime during the event. Well, at S n' F 2002 I saw the same a/c and then looked inside at the elevator cables on the control column and sure enough those had only one crimp. It was at this time that I took one of the FOR SALE flyers that the owner had attached and wrote him a note about this extremely dangerous condition. I hope he fixed it.
Enough for now,
Good luck, you'll need it.
Rick D.
Legeorgen@cs.com wrote:
Rick,
How do you get three crimps to a nicopress sleeve? The copper sleeve is long enough for only two crimps. Ate you using two sleeves? I was not aware of a required three crimps on a sleeve. You're the first I've heard suggest 3 crimps are required.
I did detect a little cynicism in your response to Ben's question on the Rebel stol capabilities. It is no secret ALL the manufacturers inflate their plane specs and build times. I suspect you had a bad day in shop. Getting tired of the building process? I can relate to that. Between family, work, friends and the plane, there is not much time left for reflection.
I have passed my FAA inspection and have scheduled first flight for July 23. It's a good feeling.
Bruce G 357R
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Rebflyer
Bush/STOL characteristics?
Hi Ben,
I guess I'll have to put my own .02 on this question. First, I'd like to talk about the build time. When I was about to purchase my kit, I questioned the build time. I was told then that they can only speak of the AIRFRAME build time. Those that are building know that if you try to reengineer just a little it increases the time factor for the building process in large blocks. Different engines, different avionics, paint or polish, all add to the unknowns. Even with that, Rebels have been build in a winter (Canadian winter). I figure that I have 3000 in the airplane. I really believe I could do an AIRFRAME in less than the suggested time, but making it yours is what takes the time.
Now on the flying side of it, on wheels it was very easy to take off in a shorter distance than I could land. About a 300ft roll. I used the 70mph approach method also for sink rate control, and the fact that I really don't like flying "behind the power curve", ie hanging it on the prop. Look in the archive for some of Aillister Yeomans comments about his approaches and where he went into and I believe the aircraft will stand up to the "bush aircraft" label. As for the factories numbers, I hit them pretty darn close, and I'm no pro test pilot. I feel they are pretty honest numbers. Good luck, and keep at it, It's worth it. Curt N97MR oh, I also have another 600 hrs into the floats!!
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I guess I'll have to put my own .02 on this question. First, I'd like to talk about the build time. When I was about to purchase my kit, I questioned the build time. I was told then that they can only speak of the AIRFRAME build time. Those that are building know that if you try to reengineer just a little it increases the time factor for the building process in large blocks. Different engines, different avionics, paint or polish, all add to the unknowns. Even with that, Rebels have been build in a winter (Canadian winter). I figure that I have 3000 in the airplane. I really believe I could do an AIRFRAME in less than the suggested time, but making it yours is what takes the time.
Now on the flying side of it, on wheels it was very easy to take off in a shorter distance than I could land. About a 300ft roll. I used the 70mph approach method also for sink rate control, and the fact that I really don't like flying "behind the power curve", ie hanging it on the prop. Look in the archive for some of Aillister Yeomans comments about his approaches and where he went into and I believe the aircraft will stand up to the "bush aircraft" label. As for the factories numbers, I hit them pretty darn close, and I'm no pro test pilot. I feel they are pretty honest numbers. Good luck, and keep at it, It's worth it. Curt N97MR oh, I also have another 600 hrs into the floats!!
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Legeorgen
Bush/STOL characteristics?
Ken and Wayne,
Yes, you are correct about the nico sleeves, I had just forgotten it has been so long since I crimped a nico. After reading Ken's email this morning I went out and examined by cables and I HAD crimped them three times. I even added a second sleeve at the bellcrank in the tail cone as it is always out of site, unlike the control column. Not that you could do anything if it released up front but I think it just made me more comfortable that I could see them.
Wayne, Thanks! Yes, It is a good feeling to know you're ready to fly. I will be very excited and proud to join the ranks of the Rebel pilots.
Bruce G 357R
Yes, you are correct about the nico sleeves, I had just forgotten it has been so long since I crimped a nico. After reading Ken's email this morning I went out and examined by cables and I HAD crimped them three times. I even added a second sleeve at the bellcrank in the tail cone as it is always out of site, unlike the control column. Not that you could do anything if it released up front but I think it just made me more comfortable that I could see them.
Wayne, Thanks! Yes, It is a good feeling to know you're ready to fly. I will be very excited and proud to join the ranks of the Rebel pilots.
Bruce G 357R
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Legeorgen
Bush/STOL characteristics?
Thanks Terry,
I just had brain fart for a few minutes on the nico pressing. I'm OK now.
Bruce G 357R
I just had brain fart for a few minutes on the nico pressing. I'm OK now.
Bruce G 357R
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Legeorgen
Bush/STOL characteristics?
Ben,
Skystar does not offer the model 5 anymore. The latest and greatest is the model 7 that is nose wheel convertible. Otherwise it is really just a model 5 or 6. I believe I remember reading the all moving horizontal stabilizer was scrapped for the trim old trim tab again. They had a few problems with failures of the screw drive resulting in busted planes. I suspect that might have facilitated the change.
I have built and own a Kitfox Classic 4 and can speak highly of Skystar and their planes. They stand behind their product and have a great support team. If you decide to go that route you will not have a problem with SS.
The Rebel has more room inside and a larger cargo area. The Rebel accepts a larger engine and has a larger gross weight. Shyster's model 7 grosses at 1550 lb. The Rebel just seems like more plane for the buck. I haven't flown the Rebel yet, but if it performs like I expect it to and like the flying pilots attest too, then I'm confident I won't be disappointed.
I could not pack everything I wanted in my model 4 and it was uncomfortable to fly long distances with two people. I considered building the model 6 at the time (3 inches wider and grosses at 350 lb. more) since I was already familiar with the plane and company. Then I saw and flew the Rebel at Arlington. I was impressed. I bought a partial completed Rebel kit and didn't tell my Skystar buddies for six months.
I'm tempted to take my Rebel to the SS fly in, that I have been attending for 5 years, and say to all my Skystar pals, Hey look what I found. But I'm afraid that the principalities at SS might not appreciate that.
Don't get me wrong, I think the Kitfox is a great company and plane. I'm probably just riding high on the excitement to fly the Rebel.
Bruce G 357R
Skystar does not offer the model 5 anymore. The latest and greatest is the model 7 that is nose wheel convertible. Otherwise it is really just a model 5 or 6. I believe I remember reading the all moving horizontal stabilizer was scrapped for the trim old trim tab again. They had a few problems with failures of the screw drive resulting in busted planes. I suspect that might have facilitated the change.
I have built and own a Kitfox Classic 4 and can speak highly of Skystar and their planes. They stand behind their product and have a great support team. If you decide to go that route you will not have a problem with SS.
The Rebel has more room inside and a larger cargo area. The Rebel accepts a larger engine and has a larger gross weight. Shyster's model 7 grosses at 1550 lb. The Rebel just seems like more plane for the buck. I haven't flown the Rebel yet, but if it performs like I expect it to and like the flying pilots attest too, then I'm confident I won't be disappointed.
I could not pack everything I wanted in my model 4 and it was uncomfortable to fly long distances with two people. I considered building the model 6 at the time (3 inches wider and grosses at 350 lb. more) since I was already familiar with the plane and company. Then I saw and flew the Rebel at Arlington. I was impressed. I bought a partial completed Rebel kit and didn't tell my Skystar buddies for six months.
I'm tempted to take my Rebel to the SS fly in, that I have been attending for 5 years, and say to all my Skystar pals, Hey look what I found. But I'm afraid that the principalities at SS might not appreciate that.
Don't get me wrong, I think the Kitfox is a great company and plane. I'm probably just riding high on the excitement to fly the Rebel.
Bruce G 357R
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Legeorgen
Bush/STOL characteristics?
Rick,
I appreciate your frankness. Thanks for your concern and from the sound of your email, I'm sure you are a very good mechanic. I CAN take advice too, very well, as my wife will attest. Rest assured however, I did crimp my sleeves three times. I went back and read my log, I pressed the center first and the thimble end next and then the lose end.
It was very informing and comforting to read the test you performed on the cables. I always look at those crimped sleeves and wonder why we stake our lives on them. They just don't LOOK like they are as strong as they must really are.
Bruce G 357R
I appreciate your frankness. Thanks for your concern and from the sound of your email, I'm sure you are a very good mechanic. I CAN take advice too, very well, as my wife will attest. Rest assured however, I did crimp my sleeves three times. I went back and read my log, I pressed the center first and the thimble end next and then the lose end.
It was very informing and comforting to read the test you performed on the cables. I always look at those crimped sleeves and wonder why we stake our lives on them. They just don't LOOK like they are as strong as they must really are.
Bruce G 357R
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