rudder pedals

[brian amendala]

Hey everybody, I was taxiing the other day and my right rudder turnbuckle
fell off the pedal. No big deal I always thought, until the spring from the
left rudder pedal floored the left pedal, giving the airplane full left
rudder and no way to reverse the situation except try to pull the left
rudder up with my toe and pull the rudder back to neutral by leaning over
the passanger seat and pulling the cable by hand. Not something I would
want to do while flying. I don't think the wind would blow the rudder back
to neutral either considering the amount of friction in the system due to
the floats. Should I get rid of the springs since they are only there to
keep the pedals from falling forward? Are the springs we put in too strong?
They are the ones from the plans. Thanks.

Brian



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Really gotta ask! HOW can the turnbuckle fall off of the rudder pedal? Did
you forget a nut, saftey wire on the turnbuckle or what?? The springs are
there to keep the rudder cables tight and not to keep the pedals from
falling forward. IF you didn't have the springs you could never take your
feet off the pedals, or the rudder would flutter wildly. The only other way
you can do it, to get rid of the springs, is to use a balancer cable and a
couple pulleys forward of the pedals. This won't help you much more though
if the turnbuckle falls off again. You will still need to grab that loose
cable, but you may not need to toe lift the other pedal!!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: rudder pedals

Hey everybody, I was taxiing the other day and my right rudder turnbuckle
fell off the pedal. No big deal I always thought, until the spring from

the

left rudder pedal floored the left pedal, giving the airplane full left
rudder and no way to reverse the situation except try to pull the left
rudder up with my toe and pull the rudder back to neutral by leaning over
the passanger seat and pulling the cable by hand. Not something I would
want to do while flying. I don't think the wind would blow the rudder back
to neutral either considering the amount of friction in the system due to
the floats. Should I get rid of the springs since they are only there to
keep the pedals from falling forward? Are the springs we put in too

strong?

They are the ones from the plans. Thanks.

Brian



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[brian amendala]

Wayne, the problem was that the turnbuckle is attached to the pedal with one
of those rod and cotter pin set ups. the cotter pin broke loose and guess
what, so did the rod. I could switch the rod and cotter pin with a nut, but
that is not much of a concern anymore since these conections are part of my
preflight now. The big concern is if one of the cables ever breaks. I know
it may be a long shot, but if it does break I probably won't be able to just
reach over and grab it unless it breaks right by the pedal, and the odds of
that are probably slim and none, and slims out of town. What about using a
softer or longer spring? Thanks for your response prof.

Brian

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Reply-To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rudder pedals
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 21:34:21 -0400

Really gotta ask! HOW can the turnbuckle fall off of the rudder pedal? Did
you forget a nut, saftey wire on the turnbuckle or what?? The springs are
there to keep the rudder cables tight and not to keep the pedals from
falling forward. IF you didn't have the springs you could never take your
feet off the pedals, or the rudder would flutter wildly. The only other way
you can do it, to get rid of the springs, is to use a balancer cable and a
couple pulleys forward of the pedals. This won't help you much more though
if the turnbuckle falls off again. You will still need to grab that loose
cable, but you may not need to toe lift the other pedal!!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: rudder pedals

Hey everybody, I was taxiing the other day and my right rudder

turnbuckle

fell off the pedal. No big deal I always thought, until the spring from

the

left rudder pedal floored the left pedal, giving the airplane full left
rudder and no way to reverse the situation except try to pull the left
rudder up with my toe and pull the rudder back to neutral by leaning

over

the passanger seat and pulling the cable by hand. Not something I would
want to do while flying. I don't think the wind would blow the rudder

back

to neutral either considering the amount of friction in the system due

to

the floats. Should I get rid of the springs since they are only there

to

keep the pedals from falling forward? Are the springs we put in too

strong?

They are the ones from the plans. Thanks.

Brian



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

My opinion is that clevis pins and cotters are fine for flying wires, cross
wires on the floats, etc., but don't belong on a moving part (as you can
attest too) as the cotter wears off and the whole thing falls apart. Replace
it with an AN3 bolt/washer/nut and your problem will go away for ever (mine
are still there after 7 years at least!). Going to take 1800 to 2000 pounds
of force to snap that cable, so get that out of your head before you lose
any sleep over it!!!

You could play with the springs, like I said they are just there to keep the
cables tight, but make sure you have enough pressure to counter any
fluttering tendencies that a loose cable would allow.

:>)
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Wayne, the problem was that the turnbuckle is attached to the pedal with

one

of those rod and cotter pin set ups. the cotter pin broke loose and guess
what, so did the rod. I could switch the rod and cotter pin with a nut,

but

that is not much of a concern anymore since these conections are part of

my

preflight now. The big concern is if one of the cables ever breaks. I

know

it may be a long shot, but if it does break I probably won't be able to

just

reach over and grab it unless it breaks right by the pedal, and the odds

of

that are probably slim and none, and slims out of town. What about using

a

softer or longer spring? Thanks for your response prof.

Brian

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Reply-To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rudder pedals
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 21:34:21 -0400

Really gotta ask! HOW can the turnbuckle fall off of the rudder pedal?

Did

you forget a nut, saftey wire on the turnbuckle or what?? The springs are
there to keep the rudder cables tight and not to keep the pedals from
falling forward. IF you didn't have the springs you could never take your
feet off the pedals, or the rudder would flutter wildly. The only other

way

you can do it, to get rid of the springs, is to use a balancer cable and

a

couple pulleys forward of the pedals. This won't help you much more

though

if the turnbuckle falls off again. You will still need to grab that loose
cable, but you may not need to toe lift the other pedal!!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: rudder pedals

Hey everybody, I was taxiing the other day and my right rudder

turnbuckle

fell off the pedal. No big deal I always thought, until the spring

from

the

left rudder pedal floored the left pedal, giving the airplane full

left

rudder and no way to reverse the situation except try to pull the left
rudder up with my toe and pull the rudder back to neutral by leaning

over

the passanger seat and pulling the cable by hand. Not something I

would

want to do while flying. I don't think the wind would blow the rudder

back

to neutral either considering the amount of friction in the system due

to

the floats. Should I get rid of the springs since they are only there

to

keep the pedals from falling forward? Are the springs we put in too

strong?

They are the ones from the plans. Thanks.

Brian



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[brian amendala]

Thank you Wayne, you are the man!! One more question. You talk about
fluttering in the rudder, but there is A LOT of friction in the rudder
controls. It seems to be enough that even a loose cable (that will be so
close to the pedals if it is loose, not near the rudder itself) won't cause
fluttering. What I am trying to say is that if slack does form in the cable
it will start at the pedal, since there is no spring. However, it would
have to travel through the entire system which has A LOT of friction in it,
to reach the rudder itself. Have you flown a rebel on floats without the
springs? If so was there fluttering? Thanks

Brian

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Reply-To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rudder pedals
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 23:00:35 -0400

My opinion is that clevis pins and cotters are fine for flying wires, cross
wires on the floats, etc., but don't belong on a moving part (as you can
attest too) as the cotter wears off and the whole thing falls apart.
Replace
it with an AN3 bolt/washer/nut and your problem will go away for ever (mine
are still there after 7 years at least!). Going to take 1800 to 2000 pounds
of force to snap that cable, so get that out of your head before you lose
any sleep over it!!!

You could play with the springs, like I said they are just there to keep
the
cables tight, but make sure you have enough pressure to counter any
fluttering tendencies that a loose cable would allow.

:>)
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Wayne, the problem was that the turnbuckle is attached to the pedal with

one

of those rod and cotter pin set ups. the cotter pin broke loose and

guess

what, so did the rod. I could switch the rod and cotter pin with a nut,

but

that is not much of a concern anymore since these conections are part of

my

preflight now. The big concern is if one of the cables ever breaks. I

know

it may be a long shot, but if it does break I probably won't be able to

just

reach over and grab it unless it breaks right by the pedal, and the odds

of

that are probably slim and none, and slims out of town. What about

using
a

softer or longer spring? Thanks for your response prof.

Brian

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Reply-To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rudder pedals
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 21:34:21 -0400

Really gotta ask! HOW can the turnbuckle fall off of the rudder pedal?

Did

you forget a nut, saftey wire on the turnbuckle or what?? The springs

are

there to keep the rudder cables tight and not to keep the pedals from
falling forward. IF you didn't have the springs you could never take

your

feet off the pedals, or the rudder would flutter wildly. The only other

way

you can do it, to get rid of the springs, is to use a balancer cable

and
a

couple pulleys forward of the pedals. This won't help you much more

though

if the turnbuckle falls off again. You will still need to grab that

loose

cable, but you may not need to toe lift the other pedal!!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: rudder pedals

turnbuckle

from

the

left

left

over

would

rudder

back

due

to

there

to strong?

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

You have a point that the water rudder cables will in fact hold the air
rudder in place. Guess not as critical to have as strong a spring at the
pedals when on floats, but I don't see a good reason to get rid of them.
There shouldn't be that much friction in the system unless you have some
very tight cable guides or bad pulleys. I can grab Howard's water rudder on
one side and move the air rudder, pedals etc fairly easily.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Thank you Wayne, you are the man!! One more question. You talk about
fluttering in the rudder, but there is A LOT of friction in the rudder
controls. It seems to be enough that even a loose cable (that will be so
close to the pedals if it is loose, not near the rudder itself) won't

cause

fluttering. What I am trying to say is that if slack does form in the

cable

it will start at the pedal, since there is no spring. However, it would
have to travel through the entire system which has A LOT of friction in

it,

to reach the rudder itself. Have you flown a rebel on floats without the
springs? If so was there fluttering? Thanks

Brian

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Reply-To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rudder pedals
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 23:00:35 -0400

My opinion is that clevis pins and cotters are fine for flying wires,

cross

wires on the floats, etc., but don't belong on a moving part (as you can
attest too) as the cotter wears off and the whole thing falls apart.
Replace
it with an AN3 bolt/washer/nut and your problem will go away for ever

(mine

are still there after 7 years at least!). Going to take 1800 to 2000

pounds

of force to snap that cable, so get that out of your head before you lose
any sleep over it!!!

You could play with the springs, like I said they are just there to keep
the
cables tight, but make sure you have enough pressure to counter any
fluttering tendencies that a loose cable would allow.

:>)
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Wayne, the problem was that the turnbuckle is attached to the pedal

with

one

of those rod and cotter pin set ups. the cotter pin broke loose and

guess

what, so did the rod. I could switch the rod and cotter pin with a

nut,

but

that is not much of a concern anymore since these conections are part

of

my

preflight now. The big concern is if one of the cables ever breaks.

I

know

it may be a long shot, but if it does break I probably won't be able

to

just

reach over and grab it unless it breaks right by the pedal, and the

odds

of

that are probably slim and none, and slims out of town. What about

using
a

softer or longer spring? Thanks for your response prof.

Brian

pedal?

Did

are

your

other

way

and
a

though

loose

spring

from

left

left

leaning

would

rudder

due

there

too

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[brian amendala]

Alright, I think I've taken enough of your time. Thanks again professor!!
You are the man!!

Brian

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Reply-To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rudder pedals
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 23:32:43 -0400

You have a point that the water rudder cables will in fact hold the air
rudder in place. Guess not as critical to have as strong a spring at the
pedals when on floats, but I don't see a good reason to get rid of them.
There shouldn't be that much friction in the system unless you have some
very tight cable guides or bad pulleys. I can grab Howard's water rudder on
one side and move the air rudder, pedals etc fairly easily.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Thank you Wayne, you are the man!! One more question. You talk about
fluttering in the rudder, but there is A LOT of friction in the rudder
controls. It seems to be enough that even a loose cable (that will be

so

close to the pedals if it is loose, not near the rudder itself) won't

cause

fluttering. What I am trying to say is that if slack does form in the

cable

it will start at the pedal, since there is no spring. However, it would
have to travel through the entire system which has A LOT of friction in

it,

to reach the rudder itself. Have you flown a rebel on floats without

the

springs? If so was there fluttering? Thanks

Brian

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Reply-To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rudder pedals
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 23:00:35 -0400

My opinion is that clevis pins and cotters are fine for flying wires,

cross

wires on the floats, etc., but don't belong on a moving part (as you

can

attest too) as the cotter wears off and the whole thing falls apart.
Replace
it with an AN3 bolt/washer/nut and your problem will go away for ever

(mine

are still there after 7 years at least!). Going to take 1800 to 2000

pounds

of force to snap that cable, so get that out of your head before you

lose

any sleep over it!!!

You could play with the springs, like I said they are just there to

keep

the
cables tight, but make sure you have enough pressure to counter any
fluttering tendencies that a loose cable would allow.

:>)
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

with

one guess

nut,

but

part
of

my

I

know

to

just

odds

of using
a

pedal?

Did

springs

are

from

take

your

other

way

cable

and
a though loose

spring

from

full

left

the

left

leaning

I

would rudder

system

due there

too

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I should also clarify that I am not saying "flutter" like the kind that rips
important items from the airframe, in an uncontrollable manner. I am just
saying that it will flutter around in the wind, in a slow oscillating manner
that gets a little eerie if you have ever experienced it!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

You have a point that the water rudder cables will in fact hold the air
rudder in place. Guess not as critical to have as strong a spring at the
pedals when on floats, but I don't see a good reason to get rid of them.
There shouldn't be that much friction in the system unless you have some
very tight cable guides or bad pulleys. I can grab Howard's water rudder

on

one side and move the air rudder, pedals etc fairly easily.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Thank you Wayne, you are the man!! One more question. You talk about
fluttering in the rudder, but there is A LOT of friction in the rudder
controls. It seems to be enough that even a loose cable (that will be

so

close to the pedals if it is loose, not near the rudder itself) won't

cause

fluttering. What I am trying to say is that if slack does form in the

cable

it will start at the pedal, since there is no spring. However, it would
have to travel through the entire system which has A LOT of friction in

it,

to reach the rudder itself. Have you flown a rebel on floats without

the

springs? If so was there fluttering? Thanks

Brian

From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Reply-To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: rudder pedals
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 23:00:35 -0400

My opinion is that clevis pins and cotters are fine for flying wires,

cross

wires on the floats, etc., but don't belong on a moving part (as you

can

attest too) as the cotter wears off and the whole thing falls apart.
Replace
it with an AN3 bolt/washer/nut and your problem will go away for ever

(mine

are still there after 7 years at least!). Going to take 1800 to 2000

pounds

of force to snap that cable, so get that out of your head before you

lose

any sleep over it!!!

You could play with the springs, like I said they are just there to

keep

the
cables tight, but make sure you have enough pressure to counter any
fluttering tendencies that a loose cable would allow.

:>)
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

with

one guess

nut,

but

part

of

my

I

know

to

just

odds

of using
a

pedal?

Did

springs

are

from

take

your

other

way

cable

and
a though loose

spring

from

full

left

the

left

leaning

I

would rudder

system

due there

too

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

As long as my wife continues to say that each night, I will be just fine!!

----- Original Message -----
From: "brian amendala" <n667ba@hotmail.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

You are the man!!

Brian

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[Ian Donaldson]

G'day Wayne

What is your opinion on using the castellated nuts and clevis pins on the
aileron hinge bolts.

Should I change them over to normal nylock nuts?


Regards


Ian Donaldson

My opinion is that clevis pins and cotters are fine for flying wires,

cross

wires on the floats, etc., but don't belong on a moving part (as you can
attest too) as the cotter wears off and the whole thing falls apart.

Replace

it with an AN3 bolt/washer/nut and your problem will go away for ever

(mine

are still there after 7 years at leastguess

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[klehman]

I spoke to a fellow a couple of years ago that experienced something
very similar in a CH701. It has a very similar rudder bar arrangement
and in his case a weld on a rudder pedal broke. Even with full power he
was unable to maintain flight because of the resultant sideslip and he
ended up in a field.

Those of us who have extended the rudder bar an inch or so where the
rudder cables attach are increasing the load forces on those welds
perhaps 15%. The worst situation is of course when we are standing on
the brakes, not when in flight. Haven't heard of problems on the Rebel
but I still think checking the rudder bar for cracks and integrity on
the preflight has some merit.

I have considered implementing Wayne's thought of using two pulleys and
a balance cable instead of the springs. It looks like for my
installation I would need a small spring in the center of the balance
cable to make it work well (eliminate the slop). However I am seriously
trying to institute a "NO more time consuming mods" policy until after
Rebel 119 flies...

Ken

brian amendala wrote:

Hey everybody, I was taxiing the other day and my right rudder turnbuckle
fell off the pedal. No big deal I always thought, until the spring from the
left rudder pedal floored the left pedal, giving the airplane full left
rudder and no way to reverse the situation except try to pull the left
rudder up with my toe and pull the rudder back to neutral by leaning over
the passanger seat and pulling the cable by hand. Not something I would
want to do while flying. I don't think the wind would blow the rudder back
to neutral either considering the amount of friction in the system due to
the floats. Should I get rid of the springs since they are only there to
keep the pedals from falling forward? Are the springs we put in too strong?
They are the ones from the plans. Thanks.

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

The drilled bolt and castle nut/cotter pin is the correct way to put the
flaperon hinge bolts in place. It can be fun, as you know, putting the
cotter pins in but do-able. They are fine in there as the bolt shouldn't be
turning anyway, as the bronze bushing should be rotating on the steel sleeve
that is held tight to the hinge by the bolt. The bolt should have no
rotation and is cotter pinned for safety, just in case the sleeve/bushing
seizes and starts the bolt rotating. In the case of the rudder pedal
turnbuckles, they are swinging up and down constantly and the bigger thing
is that your foot is kicking them all the time, which is why the cotter pin
"bend overs" break off and the clevis pin falls out.

Keep flying Ian!! Don't go pulling anything apart now!!!

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Donaldson" <allsure@iprimus.com.au>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

G'day Wayne

What is your opinion on using the castellated nuts and clevis pins on the
aileron hinge bolts.

Should I change them over to normal nylock nuts?


Regards


Ian Donaldson

My opinion is that clevis pins and cotters are fine for flying wires,

cross

wires on the floats, etc., but don't belong on a moving part (as you can
attest too) as the cotter wears off and the whole thing falls apart.

Replace

it with an AN3 bolt/washer/nut and your problem will go away for ever

(mine

are still there after 7 years at leastguess

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Ken, the 701 you are referring to is my wife's, that I purchased from the
flying school at Midland! My father-in-law's had done the same thing 2 weeks
prior to Bill (the flight instructor) putting it in the field. I had warned
Chris Heinz of this problem immediately after the "old mans" did it, when he
was turning around at the end of my strip. He, as most designers seem to do,
ignored me and then Bill ended up in the field at the end of -16- Midland 2
weeks later. The Zenairs use smaller diameter/thinner wall tube on the
pedals than the Rebel does, but it is something to consider and keep an eye
on as they are designed basically the same way. The other difference is the
"all flying" rudder on the 701 is a death trap in this situation as you
aren't strong enough with an arm to manhandle the cable to pull it back
straight. With the trailing rudder on the Rebel I <think> you could.

As for the balancer cable it can actually be done with just one large
diameter pulley at the firewall, by hooking the cables to the inner set of
pedals. This arrangement might add a bit of torsional load to the rudder
bars, but that was how XWI was before I put it back to the factory specs, in
this regard, and it seemed to have been working okay prior. Couldn't put it
back because the misc components in the Lyco installation got in the way of
where it had been run before, when she was Subaru powered.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "klehman" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

I spoke to a fellow a couple of years ago that experienced something
very similar in a CH701. It has a very similar rudder bar arrangement
and in his case a weld on a rudder pedal broke. Even with full power he
was unable to maintain flight because of the resultant sideslip and he
ended up in a field.

Those of us who have extended the rudder bar an inch or so where the
rudder cables attach are increasing the load forces on those welds
perhaps 15%. The worst situation is of course when we are standing on
the brakes, not when in flight. Haven't heard of problems on the Rebel
but I still think checking the rudder bar for cracks and integrity on
the preflight has some merit.

I have considered implementing Wayne's thought of using two pulleys and
a balance cable instead of the springs. It looks like for my
installation I would need a small spring in the center of the balance
cable to make it work well (eliminate the slop). However I am seriously
trying to institute a "NO more time consuming mods" policy until after
Rebel 119 flies...

Ken

brian amendala wrote:

Hey everybody, I was taxiing the other day and my right rudder

turnbuckle

fell off the pedal. No big deal I always thought, until the spring from

the

left rudder pedal floored the left pedal, giving the airplane full left
rudder and no way to reverse the situation except try to pull the left
rudder up with my toe and pull the rudder back to neutral by leaning

over

the passanger seat and pulling the cable by hand. Not something I would
want to do while flying. I don't think the wind would blow the rudder

back

to neutral either considering the amount of friction in the system due

to

the floats. Should I get rid of the springs since they are only there

to

keep the pedals from falling forward? Are the springs we put in too

strong?

They are the ones from the plans. Thanks.

FrX-Mozilla-Status: 000953 2002
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FCC: /C|/Program Files/Netscape/Users/klehman/mail/Sent
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Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 10:34:53 -0400
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To: Kenny Bauman <kennybauman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AirSIG: Megasquirt Address?
References: <20020519164338.64823.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com>
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Hi Ken

The GM KIGN module has been reported to give a small amount of advance
based on rpm only but I can't give you any good numbers. Might have been
in the order of 10 degrees at 2000 rpm but I don't really remember.
Doesn't matter very much for me as that is planned only for my backup
ignition for use with spark joiners at this point.

I am curious how you estimate 7% baro error with altitude changes? Seems
high to me off the top of my head. Not a show stopper for me though.
However I agree that resets with the engine operating might lead to
significant errors. My first inclination was to just change the software
so MS never does an ambient baro reading and see how things work. I
think the Soob ej22 turbo ecu used a solenoid valve to port ambient air
to the sole MAP sensor during startup but that seems like a step
backwards to me compared to full time sensing or no sensing.

At this point though MS is planned for my backup and I am still planning
the Soob ecu for the primary system. Thought I had all the Soob bits and
pieces but I am getting tired of hunting down missing parts so it is
possible I will scrap the Soob ecu before this is over. Currently I'm
missing the connector for the Soob ignitor. May have to hunt up a main
power relay as well. I would never recommend anyone try to use a Soob
ecu unless they have a complete running vehicle to start with! If I were
to scrap the soob ecu I think I'd go with SDS for the primary system.
Probably a lot less risk with SDS compared to MS but....

If you wanted a manual mixture (I don't except maybe for initial tuning)
you should be able to get it just by putting a variable resistance in
the temp sensor circuit. We know for sure that the ignition timing won't
be affected :). A pot that gets noisy might cause some difficulties
eventually. Probably not as bad as a noisy TPS pot that falsely triggers
acceleration enrichment though.

I only mentioned an alpha-N mode in case somebody else needed it. I
think the MAP sensor will be a better and more reliable solution for
most applications. And it is easier for me to plumb a second MAP than to
fit a second TPS sensor.

Incidently Ross at SDS seems comfortable with the idea of running his
system with no TPS or O2 sensor for aviation.

Ken

Kenny Bauman wrote:

Ken,

I remember a little bit about the GM KIGN. Seems that
it required a fixed advance. Is this right? Can you
refresh me a bit on it.

Your concept of not using a TPS input is fine. It has
in fact been done on the MegaSquirt list. The
gentleman found it worked just fine unless he "got on
it" too quick. Then he had a bit of lean stumble until
the MAP sensor caught up. But in XA that is not really
a concern. As far as a O2 sensor I think you are on
the right track as well. Bruce is working on adding in
WB O2 and I would like to see that.

I would use WB O2 to do my tuning then remove it
afterwards. In fact I still plan to use a WB wether it
is part of MS or not.

MS has two unused A/D pins. I plan to add in a
permanent full time BARO sensor as well as a manual
mixture POT. I would like to see full time BARO for a
couple of reasons right now. One, it is conceivable to
go from sea level to 10,000 ft in one flight. During
this you can see a fuel error of about 7 percent
without a updated baro reading. Without a O2 sensor or
manual mixture pot to correct it you will be running
the wrong fuel levels. I agree that most auto
applications do not read baro more than once and work
fine. But most car applications do not see much change
in altitude without a stop somewhere along the way for
fuel or a pit stop which of course resets the baro
reading. Second, some of the guys have been seeing
resets (from noise) on their MS units that happen so
fast the unit keeps on running without a engine miss.
(nice to know) Only problem with that is is the unit
takes a new baro reading during this unwanted
"startup" and of course is wrong because the engine
may be under vacuum or boost depending on if NA or
boosted.

Bruce is currently considering adding Alpha N
capablility which might be used as a backup mode if
the map sensor goes bad. As you mentioned he is
thinking of doing it for the big cam boys during idle.
But maybe we could hijaak it for backup purposes.

Only problem is I haven't done any coding in 20 odd
years. So I am more than a bit rusty. I'm guessing a
request on the MS list to change the code for full
time baro will result in a couple of posters. Should
be a very simple code mod. Manual mixture will
probably be slightly more difficult.

Ken Bauman

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Also to add to the difference between the 701 and the Rebel. The 701 pedals
seem to get broken off due to the fact that some that fly them are
persistant in trying to start the turn before they get moving forward (on
the ground!). It is a positive push pull arrangement with no springs and
when you force the nose wheel to turn in place it puts an EXTREME amount of
pressure on the pedal frames. This is an none issue on the Rebel being a
tail dragger with springs on the steering linkages and the Elite is a free
castering nose wheel, when built in that configuration.

:>)
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

Ken, the 701 you are referring to is my wife's, that I purchased from the
flying school at Midland! My father-in-law's had done the same thing 2

weeks

prior to Bill (the flight instructor) putting it in the field. I had

warned

Chris Heinz of this problem immediately after the "old mans" did it, when

he

was turning around at the end of my strip. He, as most designers seem to

do,

ignored me and then Bill ended up in the field at the end of -16- Midland

2

weeks later. The Zenairs use smaller diameter/thinner wall tube on the
pedals than the Rebel does, but it is something to consider and keep an

eye

on as they are designed basically the same way. The other difference is

the

"all flying" rudder on the 701 is a death trap in this situation as you
aren't strong enough with an arm to manhandle the cable to pull it back
straight. With the trailing rudder on the Rebel I <think> you could.

As for the balancer cable it can actually be done with just one large
diameter pulley at the firewall, by hooking the cables to the inner set of
pedals. This arrangement might add a bit of torsional load to the rudder
bars, but that was how XWI was before I put it back to the factory specs,

in

this regard, and it seemed to have been working okay prior. Couldn't put

it

back because the misc components in the Lyco installation got in the way

of

where it had been run before, when she was Subaru powered.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "klehman" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: rudder pedals

I spoke to a fellow a couple of years ago that experienced something
very similar in a CH701. It has a very similar rudder bar arrangement
and in his case a weld on a rudder pedal broke. Even with full power he
was unable to maintain flight because of the resultant sideslip and he
ended up in a field.

Those of us who have extended the rudder bar an inch or so where the
rudder cables attach are increasing the load forces on those welds
perhaps 15%. The worst situation is of course when we are standing on
the brakes, not when in flight. Haven't heard of problems on the Rebel
but I still think checking the rudder bar for cracks and integrity on
the preflight has some merit.

I have considered implementing Wayne's thought of using two pulleys and
a balance cable instead of the springs. It looks like for my
installation I would need a small spring in the center of the balance
cable to make it work well (eliminate the slop). However I am seriously
trying to institute a "NO more time consuming mods" policy until after
Rebel 119 flies...

Ken

brian amendala wrote:

Hey everybody, I was taxiing the other day and my right rudder

turnbuckle

fell off the pedal. No big deal I always thought, until the spring

from

the

left rudder pedal floored the left pedal, giving the airplane full

left

rudder and no way to reverse the situation except try to pull the left
rudder up with my toe and pull the rudder back to neutral by leaning

over

the passanger seat and pulling the cable by hand. Not something I

would

want to do while flying. I don't think the wind would blow the rudder

back

to neutral either considering the amount of friction in the system due

to

the floats. Should I get rid of the springs since they are only there

to

keep the pedals from falling forward? Are the springs we put in too

strong?

They are the ones from the plans. Thanks.

FrX-Mozilla-Status: 000953 2002
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FCC: /C|/Program Files/Netscape/Users/klehman/mail/Sent
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To: Kenny Bauman <kennybauman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AirSIG: Megasquirt Address?
References: <20020519164338.64823.qmail@web14403.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Ken

The GM KIGN module has been reported to give a small amount of advance
based on rpm only but I can't give you any good numbers. Might have been
in the order of 10 degrees at 2000 rpm but I don't really remember.
Doesn't matter very much for me as that is planned only for my backup
ignition for use with spark joiners at this point.

I am curious how you estimate 7% baro error with altitude changes? Seems
high to me off the top of my head. Not a show stopper for me though.
However I agree that resets with the engine operating might lead to
significant errors. My first inclination was to just change the software
so MS never does an ambient baro reading and see how things work. I
think the Soob ej22 turbo ecu used a solenoid valve to port ambient air
to the sole MAP sensor during startup but that seems like a step
backwards to me compared to full time sensing or no sensing.

At this point though MS is planned for my backup and I am still planning
the Soob ecu for the primary system. Thought I had all the Soob bits and
pieces but I am getting tired of hunting down missing parts so it is
possible I will scrap the Soob ecu before this is over. Currently I'm
missing the connector for the Soob ignitor. May have to hunt up a main
power relay as well. I would never recommend anyone try to use a Soob
ecu unless they have a complete running vehicle to start with! If I were
to scrap the soob ecu I think I'd go with SDS for the primary system.
Probably a lot less risk with SDS compared to MS but....

If you wanted a manual mixture (I don't except maybe for initial tuning)
you should be able to get it just by putting a variable resistance in
the temp sensor circuit. We know for sure that the ignition timing won't
be affected :). A pot that gets noisy might cause some difficulties
eventually. Probably not as bad as a noisy TPS pot that falsely triggers
acceleration enrichment though.

I only mentioned an alpha-N mode in case somebody else needed it. I
think the MAP sensor will be a better and more reliable solution for
most applications. And it is easier for me to plumb a second MAP than to
fit a second TPS sensor.

Incidently Ross at SDS seems comfortable with the idea of running his
system with no TPS or O2 sensor for aviation.

Ken

Kenny Bauman wrote:

Ken,

I remember a little bit about the GM KIGN. Seems that
it required a fixed advance. Is this right? Can you
refresh me a bit on it.

Your concept of not using a TPS input is fine. It has
in fact been done on the MegaSquirt list. The
gentleman found it worked just fine unless he "got on
it" too quick. Then he had a bit of lean stumble until
the MAP sensor caught up. But in XA that is not really
a concern. As far as a O2 sensor I think you are on
the right track as well. Bruce is working on adding in
WB O2 and I would like to see that.

I would use WB O2 to do my tuning then remove it
afterwards. In fact I still plan to use a WB wether it
is part of MS or not.

MS has two unused A/D pins. I plan to add in a
permanent full time BARO sensor as well as a manual
mixture POT. I would like to see full time BARO for a
couple of reasons right now. One, it is conceivable to
go from sea level to 10,000 ft in one flight. During
this you can see a fuel error of about 7 percent
without a updated baro reading. Without a O2 sensor or
manual mixture pot to correct it you will be running
the wrong fuel levels. I agree that most auto
applications do not read baro more than once and work
fine. But most car applications do not see much change
in altitude without a stop somewhere along the way for
fuel or a pit stop which of course resets the baro
reading. Second, some of the guys have been seeing
resets (from noise) on their MS units that happen so
fast the unit keeps on running without a engine miss.
(nice to know) Only problem with that is is the unit
takes a new baro reading during this unwanted
"startup" and of course is wrong because the engine
may be under vacuum or boost depending on if NA or
boosted.

Bruce is currently considering adding Alpha N
capablility which might be used as a backup mode if
the map sensor goes bad. As you mentioned he is
thinking of doing it for the big cam boys during idle.
But maybe we could hijaak it for backup purposes.

Only problem is I haven't done any coding in 20 odd
years. So I am more than a bit rusty. I'm guessing a
request on the MS list to change the code for full
time baro will result in a couple of posters. Should
be a very simple code mod. Manual mixture will
probably be slightly more difficult.

Ken Bauman

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[klehman]

aahh, the rest of the story as they say...

I'm pretty sure my rudder pedals are 0.035 tube. If they really used
0.028 in the Zenith, I'm amazed. Diameter makes a big theoretical
difference but I think wall thickness is in practice very important in
an application like this where there is a tendancy to just rip a section
out of the tube where the weld is. I assume Rebels are still using 0.035
wall tube?

I kind of like the one pulley idea. OTOH for flying from the left seat,
the right pedal bar should see higher stresses with the factory set up.
I would think the location of the spring force is going to be a
relatively small effect but yes that would in fact be a second small
change (in addition to lengthening that rudder bar to attach the rudder
cable) that would also increase the stress slightly in the outer welds
of the rightmost pedal. Oh well, like I said, "no more mods, no more
mods, no more mods...."

Ken

"Wayne G. O'Shea" wrote:

Ken, the 701 you are referring to is my wife's, that I purchased from the
flying school at Midland! My father-in-law's had done the same thing 2 weeks
prior to Bill (the flight instructor) putting it in the field. I had warned
Chris Heinz of this problem immediately after the "old mans" did it, when he
was turning around at the end of my strip. He, as most designers seem to do,
ignored me and then Bill ended up in the field at the end of -16- Midland 2
weeks later. The Zenairs use smaller diameter/thinner wall tube on the
pedals than the Rebel does, but it is something to consider and keep an eye
on as they are designed basically the same way. The other difference is the
"all flying" rudder on the 701 is a death trap in this situation as you
aren't strong enough with an arm to manhandle the cable to pull it back
straight. With the trailing rudder on the Rebel I <think> you could.

As for the balancer cable it can actually be done with just one large
diameter pulley at the firewall, by hooking the cables to the inner set of
pedals. This arrangement might add a bit of torsional load to the rudder
bars, but that was how XWI was before I put it back to the factory specs, in
this regard, and it seemed to have been working okay prior. Couldn't put it
back because the misc components in the Lyco installation got in the way of
where it had been run before, when she was Subaru powered.

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