logging float time

[Drew Dalgleish]

With a little luck and a lot of work my rebel may just make it onto amphib
floats this year. I've got very little time on floats and I'd like to log
as much as I can to satisfy the insurance company. So what gets logged as
float time? Do you have to take off and land on water or does taking off on
land and landing in water or vica versa constitute a float flight? Or just
because the plane could land on water does everything get logged as float
time?
Drew Dalgleish
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[Bill Delcambre]

This one gets a bit murky, but I'm sure that as soon as I post my
experiences, someone with a blue 'FAA' cap will jump in, and clarify.

Having flown about 300 hours in a Kitfox amphib (most fun machine I've ever
flown), it is all logged as SES. The fact that all 300 hours aren't spent
on water does not matter. You are flying a float plane. Another benefit
of amphib operations, is that all time is 'complex'. Remember, it is a
retractable geared aircraft. I was also told, by several individuals who
are more knowledgeable than myself, (here's where it gets murky) that if
you fly from, and return to hard surfaces, with no water operations, one
does not require the SES rating. I'll be the first to admit that there are
contradictions to all this logic, but more than one has reinforced this, to
me.

You mentioned satisfaction of insurance requirements. I've sold the Kitfox
now, so I'm not in that market, but understand that hull coverage has
absolutely gone balistic, in the past year or two. I'm just getting started
with a fast build Moose, and had considered putting that plane on a set of
amphibs. Stories of insurance costs have somewhat swayed my opinion. Guess
that decision is no closer than 3 years, or so, anyway.

Good luck and happy float flying!

Bill Delcambre
Lafayette, LA.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: logging float time

With a little luck and a lot of work my rebel may just make it onto amphib
floats this year. I've got very little time on floats and I'd like to log
as much as I can to satisfy the insurance company. So what gets logged as
float time? Do you have to take off and land on water or does taking off

on

land and landing in water or vica versa constitute a float flight? Or just
because the plane could land on water does everything get logged as float
time?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------

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[Bill Delcambre]

One clarification to my reply; Although it is my understanding that one can
fly the amphib, with no water operations, without the SES rating, those
hours must be logged as SEL. Without the rating, you can't log the hours
that require the rating. Reading my post, I felt that this point was vague.

As crazy as all this sounds, it hasn't been disputed yet. Now's your
chance!

Dealing with your insurance company, however, your mileage may vary....


Bill Delcambre

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: logging float time

With a little luck and a lot of work my rebel may just make it onto amphib
floats this year. I've got very little time on floats and I'd like to log
as much as I can to satisfy the insurance company. So what gets logged as
float time? Do you have to take off and land on water or does taking off

on

land and landing in water or vica versa constitute a float flight? Or just
because the plane could land on water does everything get logged as float
time?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Drew, In my opinion (F the 2 cents it's worth) if you're flying a float
plane, you log float plane time even if you aren't bobbing around on a lake!
May not help you anyhow as they are getting really picky on "type"
descriptions. IF you don't have 50 hours specifically in a Rebel on Amphibs
they are bound to make you get it before coverage to fly it solo. This has
never made any sense to me, as I had to do that back 10 years ago when <I>
taught the CFI how to fly a C182 and C/S prop for 10 hours so my coverage
would be in force (all on my nickle of course!!).

When I sold FOKM to John MacMillian last June he was able to get full
inflight coverage BUT his policy stipulated that he was:
"subject to 50 hours dual float training with a qualified instructor on make
and model prior to flying solo. After the training is complete we require a
letter of proficiency from the instructor stating that John MacMillan is
proficient and safe enough to fly the aircraft".
This meant he had to pay an instructor to fly around with him for the whole
summer to obtain the 50 hours before he could go off on his own. The dumb
thing was his instructor had no Rebel time (and it wasn't required to be
covered while they did dual in it) and I was also a named pilot being
insured on FOKM and I don't even have a float rating!!!

Cost last June was 5.25% of value for inflight ($100,000 x 5.25% = $5250) +
$550 for a million liablity = $5800 + tax. I'm sure it's even more now, if
you can even find coverage.

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: logging float time

With a little luck and a lot of work my rebel may just make it onto amphib
floats this year. I've got very little time on floats and I'd like to log
as much as I can to satisfy the insurance company. So what gets logged as
float time? Do you have to take off and land on water or does taking off

on

land and landing in water or vica versa constitute a float flight? Or just
because the plane could land on water does everything get logged as float
time?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------

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[Drew Dalgleish]

Thanks Bill
I should have mentioned that I'm in Canada so I'm dealing with TC not FAA
but it sounds like the rules are similar
Drew Dalgleish

At 01:39 PM 5/22/2002 -0500, you wrote:

One clarification to my reply; Although it is my understanding that one can
fly the amphib, with no water operations, without the SES rating, those
hours must be logged as SEL. Without the rating, you can't log the hours
that require the rating. Reading my post, I felt that this point was vague.

As crazy as all this sounds, it hasn't been disputed yet. Now's your
chance!

Dealing with your insurance company, however, your mileage may vary....


Bill Delcambre

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: logging float time

With a little luck and a lot of work my rebel may just make it onto amphib
floats this year. I've got very little time on floats and I'd like to log
as much as I can to satisfy the insurance company. So what gets logged as
float time? Do you have to take off and land on water or does taking off

on

land and landing in water or vica versa constitute a float flight? Or just
because the plane could land on water does everything get logged as float
time?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------

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[Drew Dalgleish]

Thanks Wayne
The Copa insurance plan wouldn't even give me a quote for my plane on
floats last year when it was time to renew Avemco just wanted me to have
the rating plus 5 hrs. so now I'm with them but I don't know if they've
changed that or not. for 60g hull coverage they wanted an extra $360 a
month. If they want me to have 50hrs. dual I'll just have to fly with
liability only until I can build enough time.
Drew Dalgleish

At 05:28 PM 5/22/2002 -0400, you wrote:

Drew, In my opinion (F the 2 cents it's worth) if you're flying a float
plane, you log float plane time even if you aren't bobbing around on a lake!
May not help you anyhow as they are getting really picky on "type"
descriptions. IF you don't have 50 hours specifically in a Rebel on Amphibs
they are bound to make you get it before coverage to fly it solo. This has
never made any sense to me, as I had to do that back 10 years ago when <I>
taught the CFI how to fly a C182 and C/S prop for 10 hours so my coverage
would be in force (all on my nickle of course!!).

When I sold FOKM to John MacMillian last June he was able to get full
inflight coverage BUT his policy stipulated that he was:
"subject to 50 hours dual float training with a qualified instructor on make
and model prior to flying solo. After the training is complete we require a
letter of proficiency from the instructor stating that John MacMillan is
proficient and safe enough to fly the aircraft".
This meant he had to pay an instructor to fly around with him for the whole
summer to obtain the 50 hours before he could go off on his own. The dumb
thing was his instructor had no Rebel time (and it wasn't required to be
covered while they did dual in it) and I was also a named pilot being
insured on FOKM and I don't even have a float rating!!!

Cost last June was 5.25% of value for inflight ($100,000 x 5.25% = $5250) +
$550 for a million liablity = $5800 + tax. I'm sure it's even more now, if
you can even find coverage.

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: logging float time

With a little luck and a lot of work my rebel may just make it onto amphib
floats this year. I've got very little time on floats and I'd like to log
as much as I can to satisfy the insurance company. So what gets logged as
float time? Do you have to take off and land on water or does taking off

on

land and landing in water or vica versa constitute a float flight? Or just
because the plane could land on water does everything get logged as float
time?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Drew !

As I understand it, the insurance company is concerned with
ALL time flying an AMPHIB-EQUIPPED aircraft - so ALL time counts
as amphib time, regardless of where you land and take off !!

It IS important to log the number of water takeoff and
landings, though, to meet the recency/currency requirements ...

Insurance can be VERY hard to get if you don't already have
some float time - it is possible to get full coverage for training
in your own Rebel, though. I found they wouldn't give ANY insurance -
not even liability - without a minimum of 25 (TWENTY-FIVE !!) HOURS
of DUAL on AMPHIBS !! (No problem with straight floats, only amphibs !)

I always advise everybody to "insure it to the ears for the
first year" !! It's bad enough if you bend it and have the psychological
loss, but you really don't need the financial loss too !!

Full in-flight hull coverage isn't THAT expensive, typically
about 3 - 4 % of value, and sure makes for peace of mind over that
rough northern terrain between lakes ...

....bobp

PS
Several Rebel builders, including me, get good insurance
coverage through Bill Cameron at Rhodes & Williams, (905) 513-7600.
He has arranged preferred rates for Rebels, and coverage for low-time
builders that others turned down. Read those other policies carefully -
I've heard that some Canadian policies do NOT give liability coverage
if you fly to the U.S. !!

----------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 10:45 AM 5/22/02 -0400, you wrote:

With a little luck and a lot of work my rebel may just make it onto amphib
floats this year. I've got very little time on floats and I'd like to log
as much as I can to satisfy the insurance company. So what gets logged as
float time? Do you have to take off and land on water or does taking off on
land and landing in water or vica versa constitute a float flight? Or just
because the plane could land on water does everything get logged as float
time?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Bob, the insurance #'s that I quoted (at 5.25% of value) on FOKM for last
June, to this June, were through Bill at Rhodes and Williams, and
underwritten by Global Aerospace. I also know that Global pays out if you
have an "incident", as that was the underwriter for the Rebel I rebuilt last
spring. No problems getting paid for the work I did and the total bill for
me, salvage costs, the engine/prop inspections, adjuster fees, etc was
pretty steep (around $40G's). I was a little concerned when I got cheque
#003 from them though!!!

The days of 3 to 4% on Amphibs are long gone, I believe, for full in-flight.
Even when I was bothering to do so, on my Rebel on Wheels, I was paying
about 4.5% +PLPD + Passenger coverage.
Currently about 1.75% of value just for tie down hull coverage (NOT in
motion) on a float/amphib aircraft, plus liability and passenger coverage.

But your right!! A very small price to pay, even if it is $6000/year, if you
#$&* up big time (or even sink it as they usually wreck her pretty good by
the time they get it out of the drink)! And make sure you don't under insure
it, because by the time you get onto a set of Amphibs, with a nice paint
job, panel and fresh O-320, the minimum you likely have into your "toy" is
$85,000.00 to $90,000.00CDN in parts. If you have an accident and require
parts and the labour to fix it (they will ask for an unbiased estimate), by
the time you add up the parts and the labour bill they will declare it a
total loss if you undervalue it and possibly even if you go full value + a
bit for your labour. SO be careful and give it some thought before you put a
value on your airplane for insurance purposes.

And you're right, ask for the fine print BEFORE signing with a company.
Global pays full face value less salvage costs less your deductible (at
least the policy I have in front of me states that!). That is they will
cover up to the full declared hull value, less the salvage costs and the
deductible. If your repair estimate goes over that amount they will call it
a total loss, cut you a cheque and take your airplane. Some like the AVEMCO
policy I had on my C182 state that when the "repair" costs reach only 70% of
the face value of your policy they will write you a cheque for the declared
value less the deductible and take your airplane. This one will leave you in
the hole BIG TIME! Some others I have seen state 80%. Check these things out
carefully or you may be paying a lot of money for less coverage than you
really think you have.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: logging float time

Hi Drew !

As I understand it, the insurance company is concerned with
ALL time flying an AMPHIB-EQUIPPED aircraft - so ALL time counts
as amphib time, regardless of where you land and take off !!

It IS important to log the number of water takeoff and
landings, though, to meet the recency/currency requirements ...

Insurance can be VERY hard to get if you don't already have
some float time - it is possible to get full coverage for training
in your own Rebel, though. I found they wouldn't give ANY insurance -
not even liability - without a minimum of 25 (TWENTY-FIVE !!) HOURS
of DUAL on AMPHIBS !! (No problem with straight floats, only amphibs !)

I always advise everybody to "insure it to the ears for the
first year" !! It's bad enough if you bend it and have the psychological
loss, but you really don't need the financial loss too !!

Full in-flight hull coverage isn't THAT expensive, typically
about 3 - 4 % of value, and sure makes for peace of mind over that
rough northern terrain between lakes ...

....bobp

PS
Several Rebel builders, including me, get good insurance
coverage through Bill Cameron at Rhodes & Williams, (905) 513-7600.
He has arranged preferred rates for Rebels, and coverage for low-time
builders that others turned down. Read those other policies carefully -
I've heard that some Canadian policies do NOT give liability coverage
if you fly to the U.S. !!

----------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 10:45 AM 5/22/02 -0400, you wrote:

With a little luck and a lot of work my rebel may just make it onto

amphib

floats this year. I've got very little time on floats and I'd like to log
as much as I can to satisfy the insurance company. So what gets logged as
float time? Do you have to take off and land on water or does taking off

on

land and landing in water or vica versa constitute a float flight? Or

just

because the plane could land on water does everything get logged as float
time?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Wayne !

I know rates have skyrocketted, but the good thing about
Bill Cameron, and Rhodes & Williams, is that Bill searches ALL
available insurers for the best deal for each individual ....

.... and rates can vary considerably, depending on experience,
ratings, and the length of time you've been insured with the same
company. Maybe I do a bit better, because I fly all of the different
Murphy models somewhat regularly, or maybe because I have met with some
of the folks personally, in the re-insurance company offices, and also
because I'm still trying hard to stay "the 2nd highest-time Rebel
pilot in the world" !! ;-) :-) :-)

You are absolutely correct in your advice !! Apparently
what WAS "standard wording" on policies pretty much went out the
window after Sept. 11th, and now <every> company seems to have some
little 'weasel clause' that that lets them lower rates by taking
something away from the buyer !! Several people have mentioned
things like 'no liability coverage outside Canada', and, as you
mention, 'different write-off levels', and there's no question
that coverage is getting harder to obtain, and conditions tougher !

I absolutely agree that there are VERY FEW of us who can
stand the devastation of the wreck of our Rebels, AND the financial
loss as well !! I strongly recommend full in-flight coverage for
AT LEAST the first year !! I did that, and then just KEPT ON
doing it, because, each spring, I asked myself "Can I afford to
throw away $100,000, AND still come up with ANOTHER $100,000 to
replace what I've lost ??!!!!"

Don't kid yourselves, guys - those aircraft you've built
are worth A HECK OF A LOT MORE than you might think they are, if
you had to replace them tomorrow !!! Heck, the kits themselves
have gone up OVER $$$ Ten Thousand $$ already, in just 10 years !!
Under-insuring can cost you your airplane !!! Wayne and I both
know of people who tried to save a buck this way, and ended up
losing either way ...

Just for fun, try to buy a Rebel with an O-320, on amphibs !
I have heard of one gentleman who went down the line at Oshkosh,
offering each builder $85,000 to $95,000 US for his Rebel - they
ALL turned him down flat !! And I know of a man in Florida who
rejected $110,000 US for HIS Rebel - he said "I'd just have to
build another one, so why sell !!"

That's not to say there aren't bargains out there, but if
you had to replace your prize right now, it might not be easy !!
Just ask Wayne - he hasn't been able to find any 'homeless' Rebels
to rebuild for months !! ;-)

....bobp

----------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 09:13 PM 5/22/02 -0400, you wrote:

Bob, the insurance #'s that I quoted (at 5.25% of value) on FOKM for last
June, to this June, were through Bill at Rhodes and Williams, and
underwritten by Global Aerospace. I also know that Global pays out if you
have an "incident", as that was the underwriter for the Rebel I rebuilt last
spring. No problems getting paid for the work I did and the total bill for
me, salvage costs, the engine/prop inspections, adjuster fees, etc was
pretty steep (around $40G's). I was a little concerned when I got cheque
#003 from them though!!!

The days of 3 to 4% on Amphibs are long gone, I believe, for full in-flight.
Even when I was bothering to do so, on my Rebel on Wheels, I was paying
about 4.5% +PLPD + Passenger coverage.
Currently about 1.75% of value just for tie down hull coverage (NOT in
motion) on a float/amphib aircraft, plus liability and passenger coverage.

But your right!! A very small price to pay, even if it is $6000/year, if you
#$&* up big time (or even sink it as they usually wreck her pretty good by
the time they get it out of the drink)! And make sure you don't under insure
it, because by the time you get onto a set of Amphibs, with a nice paint
job, panel and fresh O-320, the minimum you likely have into your "toy" is
$85,000.00 to $90,000.00CDN in parts. If you have an accident and require
parts and the labour to fix it (they will ask for an unbiased estimate), by
the time you add up the parts and the labour bill they will declare it a
total loss if you undervalue it and possibly even if you go full value + a
bit for your labour. SO be careful and give it some thought before you put a
value on your airplane for insurance purposes.

And you're right, ask for the fine print BEFORE signing with a company.
Global pays full face value less salvage costs less your deductible (at
least the policy I have in front of me states that!). That is they will
cover up to the full declared hull value, less the salvage costs and the
deductible. If your repair estimate goes over that amount they will call it
a total loss, cut you a cheque and take your airplane. Some like the AVEMCO
policy I had on my C182 state that when the "repair" costs reach only 70% of
the face value of your policy they will write you a cheque for the declared
value less the deductible and take your airplane. This one will leave you in
the hole BIG TIME! Some others I have seen state 80%. Check these things out
carefully or you may be paying a lot of money for less coverage than you
really think you have.

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: logging float time

Hi Drew !

As I understand it, the insurance company is concerned with
ALL time flying an AMPHIB-EQUIPPED aircraft - so ALL time counts
as amphib time, regardless of where you land and take off !!

It IS important to log the number of water takeoff and
landings, though, to meet the recency/currency requirements ...

Insurance can be VERY hard to get if you don't already have
some float time - it is possible to get full coverage for training
in your own Rebel, though. I found they wouldn't give ANY insurance -
not even liability - without a minimum of 25 (TWENTY-FIVE !!) HOURS
of DUAL on AMPHIBS !! (No problem with straight floats, only amphibs !)

I always advise everybody to "insure it to the ears for the
first year" !! It's bad enough if you bend it and have the psychological
loss, but you really don't need the financial loss too !!

Full in-flight hull coverage isn't THAT expensive, typically
about 3 - 4 % of value, and sure makes for peace of mind over that
rough northern terrain between lakes ...

....bobp

PS
Several Rebel builders, including me, get good insurance
coverage through Bill Cameron at Rhodes & Williams, (905) 513-7600.
He has arranged preferred rates for Rebels, and coverage for low-time
builders that others turned down. Read those other policies carefully -
I've heard that some Canadian policies do NOT give liability coverage
if you fly to the U.S. !!

----------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 10:45 AM 5/22/02 -0400, you wrote:

With a little luck and a lot of work my rebel may just make it onto

amphib

floats this year. I've got very little time on floats and I'd like to log
as much as I can to satisfy the insurance company. So what gets logged as
float time? Do you have to take off and land on water or does taking off

on

land and landing in water or vica versa constitute a float flight? Or

just

because the plane could land on water does everything get logged as float
time?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------

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[Mike Kimball]

I'm sure there are other CFIs on the list but I thought I'd give my
perspective on the amphib operating only on land. As far as I'm concerned
the amphib is merely a funny looking land plane with gigantic wheel pants
until it gets wet. I don't think you need a float rating to operate it only
on land. I don't have a float rating yet so haven't looked too closely at
those regs. I'll check the regs and details of the aircraft airworthiness
certificate for an amphib to be sure and I'll get back to the list.

Mike Kimball
SR#044

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Bob Patterson
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 4:20 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: logging float time



Hi Drew !

As I understand it, the insurance company is concerned with
ALL time flying an AMPHIB-EQUIPPED aircraft - so ALL time counts
as amphib time, regardless of where you land and take off !!

It IS important to log the number of water takeoff and
landings, though, to meet the recency/currency requirements ...

Insurance can be VERY hard to get if you don't already have
some float time - it is possible to get full coverage for training
in your own Rebel, though. I found they wouldn't give ANY insurance -
not even liability - without a minimum of 25 (TWENTY-FIVE !!) HOURS
of DUAL on AMPHIBS !! (No problem with straight floats, only amphibs !)

I always advise everybody to "insure it to the ears for the
first year" !! It's bad enough if you bend it and have the psychological
loss, but you really don't need the financial loss too !!

Full in-flight hull coverage isn't THAT expensive, typically
about 3 - 4 % of value, and sure makes for peace of mind over that
rough northern terrain between lakes ...

....bobp

PS
Several Rebel builders, including me, get good insurance
coverage through Bill Cameron at Rhodes & Williams, (905) 513-7600.
He has arranged preferred rates for Rebels, and coverage for low-time
builders that others turned down. Read those other policies carefully -
I've heard that some Canadian policies do NOT give liability coverage
if you fly to the U.S. !!

----------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
At 10:45 AM 5/22/02 -0400, you wrote:

With a little luck and a lot of work my rebel may just make it onto amphib
floats this year. I've got very little time on floats and I'd like to log
as much as I can to satisfy the insurance company. So what gets logged as
float time? Do you have to take off and land on water or does taking off on
land and landing in water or vica versa constitute a float flight? Or just
because the plane could land on water does everything get logged as float
time?
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------



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[Rebflyer]

Hi all, Thought I'd drop my .02 on this line. My first comment is you cannot log it as complex time in the US. You have to have two of the three choices to go along with the retractable gear. IE flaps, constant speed prop, or cowl flaps. So even though my Rebel has retracts and flaps I am missing cowl flaps and constant speed prop. So it's not a complex aircraft. (YEH Right!) Kinda goes with the FAA thinking that to be high performance an aircraft has to have more than 200 hp. So the Money I fly with 200hp(not more than) and retractable gear is complex but not High performance. On the other hand the 182 I fly has 230 hp So it is HP but not complex. Any way In the US you have to have both a HP endorsment and a complex endorsment. Fun Huh!
As for insurance, If I would have put hull insurance on my Rebel on amphibs, I could buy another Rebel in 4 years.(COMPLETE!) It is covered for not in motion on ground, but not on the water, even if it's moored. I do of course have liability.
As far as logging the time, I'm flying a ASES every time it leaves the ground. Like Bobp said, record the landings for currency. IMHO Curt N97MR






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[Rebflyer]

Hi Mike, My only comment to that is as Bobp stated, the insurance co's are the ones to worry about, as they consider it an AMphib as soon as it's on the floats. When I contacted my co. about it they were very explicit about it not being covered even during the installation of the floats!@#$$%%^^. Seems we really don't need the FAA, the insurance co's drive the system anyway!



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[Charles Skorupa]

Steve Sloan's Rebel on Amphibs has all 4 of those items so I guess he can
log complex time. By the way, I posted some nice shots of Steve's plane
taken from Chuck Bailey's rebel on
http://communities.msn.com/NWRebelExper ... rebelonflo
ats.msnw?Page=1
. What a great photo platform and what a great plane Steve has. I will
also post these to this site when I get a chance.

Chuck Skorupa
Rebel Elite SN 500E
----- Original Message -----
From: <Rebflyer@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: logging float time

Hi all, Thought I'd drop my .02 on this line. My first comment is you

cannot log it as complex time in the US. You have to have two of the three
choices to go along with the retractable gear. IE flaps, constant speed
prop, or cowl flaps. So even though my Rebel has retracts and flaps I am
missing cowl flaps and constant speed prop. So it's not a complex aircraft.
(YEH Right!) Kinda goes with the FAA thinking that to be high performance an
aircraft has to have more than 200 hp. So the Money I fly with 200hp(not
more than) and retractable gear is complex but not High performance. On the
other hand the 182 I fly has 230 hp So it is HP but not complex. Any way In
the US you have to have both a HP endorsment and a complex endorsment. Fun
Huh!

As for insurance, If I would have put hull insurance on my Rebel on

amphibs, I could buy another Rebel in 4 years.(COMPLETE!) It is covered for
not in motion on ground, but not on the water, even if it's moored. I do of
course have liability.

As far as logging the time, I'm flying a ASES every time it leaves the

ground. Like Bobp said, record the landings for currency. IMHO Curt N97MR
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[Mike Kimball]

Here is the actual text of the FAR regarding "complex" aircraft in the US.
My only comment regarding Curt's comments is that there is no mention of
cowl flaps. A complex airplane is one that has flaps and a controllable
pitch prop (which would be constant speed or cockpit adjustable) in addition
to either retractable gear or floats. It takes three things to be complex
and cowl flaps is not one of them. Of course, what the FAA considers as
complex and what insurance companies consider complex could be two different
things. I didn't even know about the complex endorsement until this thread
because I have been building since 1997 when they instigated the complex
requirement and stopped actively instructing at that time.

Mike Kimball
SR#044

From FAR part 61...

(e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1)
Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as
pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable
landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of
a
seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller), unless the person has--
(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized
instructor in a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight
training
device that is representative of a complex airplane, and has been found
proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and
(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an
authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a
complex airplane.

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Rebflyer@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 7:12 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: logging float time


Hi all, Thought I'd drop my .02 on this line. My first comment is you cannot
log it as complex time in the US. You have to have two of the three choices
to go along with the retractable gear. IE flaps, constant speed prop, or
cowl flaps. So even though my Rebel has retracts and flaps I am missing cowl
flaps and constant speed prop. So it's not a complex aircraft. (YEH Right!)
Kinda goes with the FAA thinking that to be high performance an aircraft has
to have more than 200 hp. So the Money I fly with 200hp(not more than) and
retractable gear is complex but not High performance. On the other hand the
182 I fly has 230 hp So it is HP but not complex. Any way In the US you have
to have both a HP endorsment and a complex endorsment. Fun Huh!
As for insurance, If I would have put hull insurance on my Rebel on
amphibs, I could buy another Rebel in 4 years.(COMPLETE!) It is covered for
not in motion on ground, but not on the water, even if it's moored. I do of
course have liability.
As far as logging the time, I'm flying a ASES every time it leaves the
ground. Like Bobp said, record the landings for currency. IMHO Curt N97MR




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