Old ProSeal

[Mike Davis]

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Have tested some old proseal. It would seem that it's taking about three
times
longer to harden than the new stuff. Anybody know if it's OK to use it? It
has
been refrigerated or frozen for 3 or 4 years.

thanks
Ken

[Mike Davis]

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Ken I can't say for sure but I dug some out of my freezer about 3 weeks ago
that
had been in there for close to 4 years and after 3 days I tested and found
only one
rivet leaking through the middle. Gooped it up and had the old latex glove
on there
for close to a week without losing pressure. ...well the finger drooped
each
night as it cooled and came back up strong the next day as it warmed again.
Will it
hold fuel? ...only time will tell as I'm only on my second wing now and
still have
the fuselage , engine, instruments etc. to go before the fuel test. Does
seem to
stick to things pretty good though.

klehman@albedo.net wrote:

Have tested some old proseal. It would seem that it's taking about three

times

longer to harden than the new stuff. Anybody know if it's OK to use it?

It has

been refrigerated or frozen for 3 or 4 years.

thanks
Ken

--
Wray Thompson ...Rebel 306 ...home page http://www.globalserve.net/~cobbg/

[Mike Davis]

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Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:42:02 -0500


The ProSeal folks make a big deal about the expiry date - but that's
just because it's MIL spec. - if the military have to throw it out, they
get to sell more new stuff !!

Several builders have used it after freezing for years, with no
reported problems.

FWIW, the Murphy factory, AFAIK, has NEVER thrown out ANY ProSeal,
EVER, and they use it to build all their demonstrators !!

....bobp
--------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 10:51 PM 12/26/98 -0500, you wrote:

Have tested some old proseal. It would seem that it's taking about three

times

longer to harden than the new stuff. Anybody know if it's OK to use it? It

has

been refrigerated or frozen for 3 or 4 years.

thanks
Ken

.





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[Mike Davis]

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Hi Ken

I stored mine for a couple of years before use and it seemed to be OK.
However, considering the work involved to install it and the potential
problems and costs to fix if you have a leak, I personally would not
recommend
it. The manufacturer of this material was recently posted on this site last
week. Perhaps you should call them and ask.

Brian #328R

[Mike Davis]

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Thanks very much everyone for the comments on old ProSeal. I went ahead and
used
it but I think it helped to make sure any error in weighing it erred on the
side
of extra black hardener. I'll let you know in a few days if any troubles
arise.
Again I really appreciated the comments!

I also used some aluminum tube to extend the between tank vent line through
the
tank to the to the forward outer corner of the tanks. Didn't like the idea
that
even a flat tire would let fuel flow from the high tank to the low tank and
out
the fuel cap vent. The vent is now independant of the fuel sight gauge and
also
independant from the fuel feed line.

A Happy New Year to All
Ken




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[Mike Davis]

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Hi Curt
Would appreciate anymore info you find. I've had problems with a couple of
batches of ProSeal. In another week or two I will post the results but my
current thinking is that the stuff stores much better frozen than
refrigerated.
I've got a couple of three year old refrigerated batches that have caused
problems now.
Some of it gets too thick to work when it starts to go granular as Jim also
mentioned. Also some of it appears fine but is very very slow to harden
(although I still have my fingers crossed). Don't think that batch would
ever
harden at 50 degrees, so good info you've added.
Ken




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[Mike Davis]

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As Promised here is a summary of my findings about old Proseal.

From Curt.

"I had some concern on my pro seal also. I called the factory
and they gave me some really good ways of seeing if it is ok to work. I
believe they were something like this. ( sorry, I took it to the work shop.)
If the material separates, or has a crystallized look, that's the base,
that's not a good sign. Also just mix up a small portion and see if it sets
up
overnight at over 50 degrees F.
Curt N97MR"

From Jim.

"I talked to the local manufacturing Rep. and the he said if it doesn't mix
right i.e. it mixes like taffy (candy) it isn't useable. Also he told me
that
for each 10 degrees of temp. change from 70 degrees, the drying time will
double ....so if it's 60 deg. in your shop, 590-B2 (the 2hr kind) will take
4hrs. to dry. In the summer at 80 deg 590-B2 will dry in 1hr ...90 deg. it
will dry in 30min. After the 6 month date has expired they just retest a
sample of the batch and relabel it for another 6 months ... more like a
freshness guarantee than a reason to toss it out.
Jim
JimsRebel@aol.com"

I think the stuff stores better frozen than refrigerated. I had two three
year
old refrigerated samples that were very slow to harden. They did harden
satisfactorily though after a week or two. I talked to an airline user and
he
said not to worry at all about the slow hardening. However several people
have
reported no problems at all using Proseal that has been frozen 3 or 4 years
so I
suspect it keeps better when frozen.

Another sample was too thick to work with and a little bit granular. That
batch
was a semkit (caulking cartridge) but it hardened normally. It was just too
thick to spread. I found no advantage to the cartridge by the way. If
anything,
I found it easier to spread the stuff with the side of a screwdriver. All of
my
samples were the B-2 filleting grade of ProSeal.

And of course one more question. Has anybody tried the A-2 or A-1/2
brushable
Proseal for brushing over the inside of the seams and rivets after assembly?
I
was thinking of brushing the seams and rivets with the PR1005L sloshing
compound
as per Bobp's suggestion but I am wondering if the brushable Proseal might
be
better for this. In fact, against MAM's advice, I cut a 4x8" oval access
hole in
the bottom rear of the center fuel tank bay. I plan to brush the top inside
corners and rivets after the tank top is on, as I have seen several tanks
with a
couple of seeping rivets. I will then rivet in the rear baffles and install
the
access cover, which should be fairly easy to seal. It seems to me that the
sloshing compound or brushable Proseal should have a better chance when the
tank
is new and clean. Or perhaps I'm just making extra work for myself.

Ken




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[Mike Davis]

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Ken I used my 3 year old (out of the freezer) stuff to do my tank and I also
got
some of the brushable stuff and recoated all the seams and rivets before
putting the
top on. I also brushed some on the underside of where I was going to be
putting the
top rivets after I used the regular stuff along the top sides then riveted
everything. Only had 1 rivet that had a very slow leak through the centre
and a
little drip of brushable into the centre fixed that. Had a glove inflated on
it for
5 days before I put it all away.

klehman@albedo.net wrote:

As Promised here is a summary of my findings about old Proseal.

From Curt.

"I had some concern on my pro seal also. I called the factory
and they gave me some really good ways of seeing if it is ok to work. I
believe they were something like this. ( sorry, I took it to the work

shop.)

If the material separates, or has a crystallized look, that's the base,
that's not a good sign. Also just mix up a small portion and see if it

sets up

overnight at over 50 degrees F.
Curt N97MR"

From Jim.

"I talked to the local manufacturing Rep. and the he said if it doesn't

mix

right i.e. it mixes like taffy (candy) it isn't useable. Also he told me

that

for each 10 degrees of temp. change from 70 degrees, the drying time will
double ....so if it's 60 deg. in your shop, 590-B2 (the 2hr kind) will

take

4hrs. to dry. In the summer at 80 deg 590-B2 will dry in 1hr ...90 deg. it
will dry in 30min. After the 6 month date has expired they just retest a
sample of the batch and relabel it for another 6 months ... more like a
freshness guarantee than a reason to toss it out.
Jim
JimsRebel@aol.com"

I think the stuff stores better frozen than refrigerated. I had two three

year

old refrigerated samples that were very slow to harden. They did harden
satisfactorily though after a week or two. I talked to an airline user and

he

said not to worry at all about the slow hardening. However several people

have

reported no problems at all using Proseal that has been frozen 3 or 4

years so I

suspect it keeps better when frozen.

Another sample was too thick to work with and a little bit granular. That

batch

was a semkit (caulking cartridge) but it hardened normally. It was just

too

thick to spread. I found no advantage to the cartridge by the way. If

anything,

I found it easier to spread the stuff with the side of a screwdriver. All

of my

samples were the B-2 filleting grade of ProSeal.

And of course one more question. Has anybody tried the A-2 or A-1/2

brushable

Proseal for brushing over the inside of the seams and rivets after

assembly? I

was thinking of brushing the seams and rivets with the PR1005L sloshing

compound

as per Bobp's suggestion but I am wondering if the brushable Proseal might

be

better for this. In fact, against MAM's advice, I cut a 4x8" oval access

hole in

the bottom rear of the center fuel tank bay. I plan to brush the top

inside

corners and rivets after the tank top is on, as I have seen several tanks

with a

couple of seeping rivets. I will then rivet in the rear baffles and

install the

access cover, which should be fairly easy to seal. It seems to me that the
sloshing compound or brushable Proseal should have a better chance when

the tank

is new and clean. Or perhaps I'm just making extra work for myself.

Ken

--
Wray Thompson ...Rebel 306 ...home page http://www.globalserve.net/~cobbg/





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[Mike Davis]

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Hi Ken
I bought both -B2 and -A2(brushable) Proseal. The bushable was used to coat
the inside of the tank seams both on the inside and outside of the tank (end
ribs). I think this is better then using Sloshing compound. The half hour
dry
time of -A1/2 is alittle to fast for the way I work. If you have any of the
thick stuff left over you can thin it (once) with MEK after you mix it. I
thinned most of my batches a little ,, seems to go farther this way.
Alot of people quit using the sloshing compound after it started to come
loose
in the tank and pluging up the screens. Vans aircraft no longer recommends
its
use.
Jim JimsRebel@aol.com



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[Mike Davis]

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Subject: RE: Old ProSeal
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I use both B2 and A2 Proseal in the process.

B2 for the initial seal, brushed over with A2. Works great.

I too have access holes in my tank...three...one in each bay. I did this
for the same reason as Curt. I wanted to seal the top skins from the
inside. My mod was approved by MAM, and I'll send details if anyone wants
them.

Tim
#438R

-----Original Message-----
From: klehman@albedo.net [mailto:klehman@albedo.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 1999 7:15 PM
To: Murphy Rebel
Subject: Re: Old ProSeal


As Promised here is a summary of my findings about old Proseal.

From Curt.

"I had some concern on my pro seal also. I called the factory
and they gave me some really good ways of seeing if it is ok to work. I
believe they were something like this. ( sorry, I took it to the work shop.)
If the material separates, or has a crystallized look, that's the base,
that's not a good sign. Also just mix up a small portion and see if it sets
up
overnight at over 50 degrees F.
Curt N97MR"

From Jim.

"I talked to the local manufacturing Rep. and the he said if it doesn't mix
right i.e. it mixes like taffy (candy) it isn't useable. Also he told me
that
for each 10 degrees of temp. change from 70 degrees, the drying time will
double ....so if it's 60 deg. in your shop, 590-B2 (the 2hr kind) will take
4hrs. to dry. In the summer at 80 deg 590-B2 will dry in 1hr ...90 deg. it
will dry in 30min. After the 6 month date has expired they just retest a
sample of the batch and relabel it for another 6 months ... more like a
freshness guarantee than a reason to toss it out.
Jim
JimsRebel@aol.com"

I think the stuff stores better frozen than refrigerated. I had two three
year
old refrigerated samples that were very slow to harden. They did harden
satisfactorily though after a week or two. I talked to an airline user and
he
said not to worry at all about the slow hardening. However several people
have
reported no problems at all using Proseal that has been frozen 3 or 4 years
so I
suspect it keeps better when frozen.

Another sample was too thick to work with and a little bit granular. That
batch
was a semkit (caulking cartridge) but it hardened normally. It was just too
thick to spread. I found no advantage to the cartridge by the way. If
anything,
I found it easier to spread the stuff with the side of a screwdriver. All of
my
samples were the B-2 filleting grade of ProSeal.

And of course one more question. Has anybody tried the A-2 or A-1/2
brushable
Proseal for brushing over the inside of the seams and rivets after assembly?
I
was thinking of brushing the seams and rivets with the PR1005L sloshing
compound
as per Bobp's suggestion but I am wondering if the brushable Proseal might
be
better for this. In fact, against MAM's advice, I cut a 4x8" oval access
hole in
the bottom rear of the center fuel tank bay. I plan to brush the top inside
corners and rivets after the tank top is on, as I have seen several tanks
with a
couple of seeping rivets. I will then rivet in the rear baffles and install
the
access cover, which should be fairly easy to seal. It seems to me that the
sloshing compound or brushable Proseal should have a better chance when the
tank
is new and clean. Or perhaps I'm just making extra work for myself.

Ken





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[Mike Davis]

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Have a little sad news to add to our discussion on old ProSeal. My old
refrigerated proseal that was slow to harden, did eventually harden just
fine,
however it turned out to have very poor adhesion to the aluminum. This is
obviously quite rare. I guess the overnight hardening test that Jim
mentioned is
important!
My ProSeal was refrigerated for more than 3 years in a relatively warm
refrigerator, and it took a week or two to harden to the point that it
normally
does in a day or two. Fortunately I haven't closed the tank as the wing
hasn't
been inspected yet, so it isn't too bad. Guess I'll have to do some scraping
though....
Ken




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