Moose elevator

Ralph Baker · Post by **Ralph Baker** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:04 pm

At Sun&Fun I saw a Moose in the homebuilt area that had the front of the
elevator where the lead balance weights are mounted modified into a
slightly pointed rounded shape. We doing an Elite which has this area flat
to the airstream as does the standard Moose. When assembling our elevator
I wondered why the flat front as it would swing up and present that flat
face to the air when the elevator was deflected. Now with the passage of
time and with a little more knowlege (hopefully) it looks like that flat
front would cause the oncoming air to take an abrupt 90 degree turn and
create a turbulent condition that would "stall" that portion of the
elevator aft of the balance weight area rendering it ineffective. As the
elevator returned toward the neutral position the air would reattach making
that portion once again effective. It would seem that would have the
effect of making the elevator effect non linear and perhaps feel "twitchy".
That is a comment I have heard in reference to the Elite. There are other
aircraft with these "flat" elevator tips such as the RV8 but the surface
area is much smaller and may cause no adverse effect.

My temptation is to similarly modify our elevator. Has anyone else thought
about this or know why this SR -oops- Moose has been modified? Please
comment. I will contact MAM on Monday to hear their side of it.

One other point, the vertical fin and rudder on this aircraft appeared to
have had an extra 10 - 12 inches of height added.
Ralph Baker
Elite 624E (reserved)

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Al & Deb Paxhia · Post by **Al & Deb Paxhia** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:04 pm

Hi Ralph,
Did you happen to get a builder name or tail number? Sounds worth talking to
the builder.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@ftc-i.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 7:38 PM
Subject: Moose elevator

At Sun&Fun I saw a Moose in the homebuilt area that had the front of the
elevator where the lead balance weights are mounted modified into a
slightly pointed rounded shape. We doing an Elite which has this area

flat

to the airstream as does the standard Moose. When assembling our elevator
I wondered why the flat front as it would swing up and present that flat
face to the air when the elevator was deflected. Now with the passage of
time and with a little more knowlege (hopefully) it looks like that flat
front would cause the oncoming air to take an abrupt 90 degree turn and
create a turbulent condition that would "stall" that portion of the
elevator aft of the balance weight area rendering it ineffective. As the
elevator returned toward the neutral position the air would reattach

making

that portion once again effective. It would seem that would have the
effect of making the elevator effect non linear and perhaps feel

"twitchy".

That is a comment I have heard in reference to the Elite. There are

other

aircraft with these "flat" elevator tips such as the RV8 but the surface
area is much smaller and may cause no adverse effect.

My temptation is to similarly modify our elevator. Has anyone else

thought

about this or know why this SR -oops- Moose has been modified? Please
comment. I will contact MAM on Monday to hear their side of it.

One other point, the vertical fin and rudder on this aircraft appeared to
have had an extra 10 - 12 inches of height added.
Ralph Baker
Elite 624E (reserved)

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:04 pm

Let use know what MAM has to say Ralph, but I would contend that the flat
face, as designed, gives a little help in the aerodynamic balance to lighten
the stick forces. The plain Rebel has a full balancer tip, without the
leading edge stab/fin extension protecting it, so lots of aerodynamic help.
With the SR and Elite, having the balancer tip hidden behind the extended
Stab/fin leading edge doesn't allow the airflow to get above the balancer
tip in a normal nose up/or yaw elevator/rudder movement (as it does on the
unprotected Rebel tip). The squared off face of the balancer tip, on the
Elite/SR, gives the air something to hit and push against to help you move
it in the direction you want it to go. If you rounded it off or pointed it
you would lose this "help". You are right though as I'm sure there is a spot
just before full travel that it gets suddenly lighter, as the tip clears the
protection of the stab extension and the air can get on top of the balancer
tip. Shouldn't be a big deal at this point, as you should be just about
touching the wheels when this happens and you will be so busy you won't even
notice! And just to be sure on mine, my Pilatus Porter/Kenmore Air Beaver
style tip fences will keep any balancer tip "turbulence" from effecting the
elevator proper in any way, so I'll leave mine as is (square).

Then again I could be totally wrong ..........

Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@ftc-i.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:38 PM
Subject: Moose elevator

At Sun&Fun I saw a Moose in the homebuilt area that had the front of the
elevator where the lead balance weights are mounted modified into a
slightly pointed rounded shape. We doing an Elite which has this area

flat

to the airstream as does the standard Moose. When assembling our elevator
I wondered why the flat front as it would swing up and present that flat
face to the air when the elevator was deflected. Now with the passage of
time and with a little more knowlege (hopefully) it looks like that flat
front would cause the oncoming air to take an abrupt 90 degree turn and
create a turbulent condition that would "stall" that portion of the
elevator aft of the balance weight area rendering it ineffective. As the
elevator returned toward the neutral position the air would reattach

making

that portion once again effective. It would seem that would have the
effect of making the elevator effect non linear and perhaps feel

"twitchy".

That is a comment I have heard in reference to the Elite. There are

other

aircraft with these "flat" elevator tips such as the RV8 but the surface
area is much smaller and may cause no adverse effect.

My temptation is to similarly modify our elevator. Has anyone else

thought

about this or know why this SR -oops- Moose has been modified? Please
comment. I will contact MAM on Monday to hear their side of it.

One other point, the vertical fin and rudder on this aircraft appeared to
have had an extra 10 - 12 inches of height added.
Ralph Baker
Elite 624E (reserved)

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Nielsenbe · Post by **Nielsenbe** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:56 am

I am working on the elevator. I have all the ribs cleco'd to the skin on the
one side. I just turned it over and did the measurement to the trailing edge.
The question I have now is....... There is a buldge of about 3/8" all the way
across..ie the skin sits about that high above the ribs in the middle. If I
start at the spar side and work down like they say it should get pushed to the
end. Is this OK or normal or...... since the first hole is factory drilled on
both sides there is no way to really mess it up?????? Second, what tolerance
did you use for the measurement from the level to the trailing edge? It's within
a 1/16 now but let me know..........

Thanks, Brad
SR222

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mike.davis · Post by **mike.davis** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:06 am

Just thought I'd pass on a mistake I made while building my Moose elevator.
As all you Moose builders know trying to follow the Super Rebel manual
injecting the Moose mod manual in the appropriate places can be a bit of a
pain. While the Super Rebel manual has a nice CAD drawing of the center two
EL-450 ribs showing exactly how to trim them to fit, the Moose mod manual has
a slightly blurry picture showing the tabs on these ribs being left long
enough to reach all the way across to the opposite rib, causing the tabs to
overlap each other.

Well, I missed the detail in the black and white photo... only noticed this
while browsing the PDF files in the tech support section. It's much clearer
in color on my 21" monitor! So I cut my EL-450 ribs per the SR2500 manual,
and now had to order 2 new ribs to correct this mistake. And just when I
thought I was ready to final rivet the elevator.

Mike
195SR

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bscheube · Post by **bscheube** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:51 am

Hello all,
I am putting the moose mod doublers (EL451) on the elevator the predrilled
pilot holes in the new doublers do not line up with the pilot holes or the
width of the V notch in the skin? It looks like I will have to trim the skin
back apx. 1/2" all the way around the V notch and redrill the pilot holes? I
found on Mikes builder site that he said this wider opening was for spar
doublers on the vertical stabilizer. For those of you who have done this
upgrade how did you make the cut and how did you come up with the layout for
the cut? (I figure I can use the el450 Rib and cleco it to the EL451 doublers,
which is attached to the spar using it as a guide for the new cut on the
skin). I just want to check, as cutting the skin is a one shot deal.
Thanks ahead of time for your response.
Bob Scheuber
Moose/191

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Dale Fultz · Post by **Dale Fultz** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:51 am

Hi Bob, Do a search last fall I went through the same thing , and Wayne
had the measurements I had them saved in my computer and it crashed so I
have to find them again also. Dale Fultz 033

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Scott Aldrich · Post by **Scott Aldrich** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:51 am

Bob, sounds like you are on the right track. I did not do this change; I
trimmed the vertical doublers and added channels, which was another option.
Trimming the V on the elevator is better though. It sounds like you have the
newer doublers so I would just extend that line down the elevator notch. I
am pretty sure if it is 1/2 inch back all along the V it will be more than
enough.

The problem was caused (I believe) by the upgraded spar doublers on the back
of the Moose horizontal stab spar moving the hinges back which put the
elevator farther aft than the original SR's.

FWIW
Scott
Moose 174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
bscheube@dcsol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 12:36 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: moose elevator

Hello all,
I am putting the moose mod doublers (EL451) on the elevator the predrilled
pilot holes in the new doublers do not line up with the pilot holes or the
width of the V notch in the skin? It looks like I will have to trim the skin

back apx. 1/2" all the way around the V notch and redrill the pilot holes? I

found on Mikes builder site that he said this wider opening was for spar
doublers on the vertical stabilizer. For those of you who have done this
upgrade how did you make the cut and how did you come up with the layout for

the cut? (I figure I can use the el450 Rib and cleco it to the EL451
doublers,
which is attached to the spar using it as a guide for the new cut on the
skin). I just want to check, as cutting the skin is a one shot deal.
Thanks ahead of time for your response.
Bob Scheuber
Moose/191

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bscheube · Post by **bscheube** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:51 am

Hi Scott,
thanks for the answer on the elevator. I have another question for you...did
you fabricate the exhaust pipes for your engine? I saw were you did fab your
carb heat, your engine mount, etc., but did not see the exhaust fab? Also did
you keep the jig for the mount and would you be interested in making another
mount and selling it to me or giving me the dimensions of mount and jig so I
could do it myself? (also the oil tank). I have a Miller 250 MIG and a friend
is a welder (cert). I see that you did yours with a TIG would the MIG make
that much difference? I would have my welder friend with me and check my
work. Also I will get you new photos that I keep forgeting about.
Thanks Scott.
Bob Scheuber
Moose/191

-> Bob, sounds like you are on the right track. I did not do this change; I
-> trimmed the vertical doublers and added channels, which was another option.
-> Trimming the V on the elevator is better though. It sounds like you have the
-> newer doublers so I would just extend that line down the elevator notch. I
-> am pretty sure if it is 1/2 inch back all along the V it will be more than
-> enough.
->
-> The problem was caused (I believe) by the upgraded spar doublers on the back
-> of the Moose horizontal stab spar moving the hinges back which put the
-> elevator farther aft than the original SR's.
->
-> FWIW
-> Scott
-> Moose 174
->
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
-> bscheube@dcsol.com
-> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 12:36 PM
-> To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> Subject: moose elevator
->
-> Hello all,
-> I am putting the moose mod doublers (EL451) on the elevator the predrilled
-> pilot holes in the new doublers do not line up with the pilot holes or the
-> width of the V notch in the skin? It looks like I will have to trim the skin
->
-> back apx. 1/2" all the way around the V notch and redrill the pilot holes? I
->
-> found on Mikes builder site that he said this wider opening was for spar
-> doublers on the vertical stabilizer. For those of you who have done this
-> upgrade how did you make the cut and how did you come up with the layout for
->
-> the cut? (I figure I can use the el450 Rib and cleco it to the EL451
-> doublers,
-> which is attached to the spar using it as a guide for the new cut on the
-> skin). I just want to check, as cutting the skin is a one shot deal.
-> Thanks ahead of time for your response.
-> Bob Scheuber
-> Moose/191
->
->
->
->
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-> https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
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->
->
->

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