Considering a rebel or zenair....

[Nielsenbe]

I am considering building a rebel or zenair. I want an all metal highwing plane, STOL type. I got alot of response on the zenair list and would like the rebel point of view. This will be my fir st aircraft experience. I am just getting my private liscense now. How does the rebel rate on ease of construction, flying and factory support? What type of riviting does the rebel use? I never found out for sure on the web site. I got enough nege tive responses on the zenair list I am leaning heavily twords the rebel at this point. Thanks everyone.

Brad

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[Collins]

Hello Brad,

I couldn't find any responses to your info request on the
Zenith-List. Could you summarize either here or there what
you learned?

Thanks,

Bob Collins
Sunnyvale CA USA

Nielsenbe@aol.com wrote:

I am considering building a rebel or zenair. I want an all metal
highwing plane, STOL type. I got alot of response on the zenair list
and would like the rebel point of view. This will be my fir st
aircraft experience. I am just getting my private liscense now. How
does the rebel rate on ease of construction, flying and factory
support? What type of riviting does the rebel use? I never found out
for sure on the web site. I got enough nege tive responses on the
zenair list I am leaning heavily twords the rebel at this point.
Thanks everyone.

Brad

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[rognal]

Brad,

My situation was similiar to yours. Low time pilot, new builder w/no previous
experience, etc. I began building Rebel #687 just over 2 years ago and can
address some of your questions on the building experience and factory support.
I have never flown a Rebel so cannot help you there, though many on this list
can.

With regard to the "ease of building", I would tell you that it is easy. It is
not without frustrations though. Some parts of the builder's manual could be
better written/explained, especially for the novice builder. You will have to
accomplish tasks for which the manual gives no direction, such as turning the
wing over on the work table, or pulling the leading edge skins into position,
etc. But that is where this list comes in. There are many people here that have
"been there, done that" and can help you with your questions.

Tech support from Murphy has, overall, been very good. I live within a days
drive and have been to the factory several times to pick up the sub kits. I
know that Grant and Brian field a lot of calls and are really overworked. Don't
expect to call and get an immediate response to your question. It rarely works
that way. I have found that if I send my question via email I will usually get
a response within 8-24 hours. For me, email seems to work the best and get the
quickest response.

The rebel uses pulled rivets. Also called blind rivets. Zenith Aircraft kits
use this type of rivet also.



I have enjoyed the building experience (except the Pro-Seal!)and have already
been contemplating a second project when this is done. Initially, when I was
staring at the contents of the first crate, I was overcome with the feeling
that I had gotten in way over my head, but once I started those feelings went
away. Small steps!

Hope this has been useful.

Roger #687R
Eugene, OR USA!



On 3/28/2002 6:08 AM, NIELSENBE@AOL.COM wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

->
-> --part1_141.be2a22a.29d422ab_boundary
-> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
-> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
->
-> I am considering building a rebel or zenair. I want an all metal highwing
-> plane, STOL type. I got alot of response on the zenair list and would like
-> the rebel point of view. This will be my first aircraft experience. I am
just
-> getting my private liscense now. How does the rebel rate on ease of
-> construction, flying and factory support? What type of riviting does the
-> rebel use? I never found out for sure on the web site. I got enough
negetive
-> responses on the zenair list I am leaning heavily twords the rebel at this
-> point. Thanks everyone.
->
-> Brad
->
-> --part1_141.be2a22a.29d422ab_boundary
-> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
-> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
->
-> <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT COLOR="#800000" SIZE=2><B>I am
considering building a rebel or zenair. I want an all metal highwing plane,
STOL type. I got alot of response on the zenair list and would like the rebel
point of view. This will be my fir
-> st aircraft experience. I am just getting my private liscense now.

[Mike Davis]

Hi Brad welcome to the list. You're in luck since one of our Rebel gurus also has a CH701... I would assume that as soon as Wayne has a chance to read his e-mail you will get some good feedback. I would add that I think you'll find very few complaints here regarding the Rebel as a finished aircraft (if any)... we lose feedback from to many builders once their flying because their having to much fun to bother with the list anymore. :-( As with any project this size there are bumps along the way during construction, but that's primarily what this group is for... there are currently about 200 builders around the world on this list sharing their experiences dealing with these "bumps" so a builder just getting there won't have to struggle with the same issues. Scanning through the archives (link at the bottom of every message) will also give you a good idea of the issues builders have run into with this kit... whether building related, dealing with the factory, or other.

Hope this helps... I'm sure Wayne will throw in his 0.00000000002 cents (Canadian) too.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Nielsenbe@aol.com (Nielsenbe@aol.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 10:39 PM
Subject: Considering a rebel or zenair....


I am considering building a rebel or zenair. I want an all metal highwing plane, STOL type. I got alot of response on the zenair list and would like the rebel point of view. This will be my fir st aircraft experience. I am just getting my private liscense now. How does the rebel rate on ease of construction, flying and factory support? What type of riviting does the rebel use? I never found out for sure on the web site. I got enough nege tive responses on the zenair list I am leaning heavily twords the rebel at this point. Thanks everyone.

Brad

[Nielsenbe]

Most of the negetive responses I got were off list. Two said the construction manuals were not very good. There were several that complained the landing gear was not suitably strong to land in rough conditions. There were a couple that just said they were unhappy with the handling characteristics in the air. There has been quite a bit mentioned on the list lately about problems with the wings "oil canning". I actually found a 701 that was for sale in colorado and called the guy but he said it had been for sale so long with no intrest that he donated it to the embry riddle school.

Brad

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[LisaFly99]

In a message dated 3/28/02 2:26:33 AM Central Standard Time, Nielsenbe@aol.com writes:

I am considering building a rebel or zenair. I want an all metal highwing plane, STOL type. I got alot of response on the zenair list and would like the rebel point of view. This will be my fir st aircraft experience. I am just getting my private liscense now.

How does the rebel rate on ease of construction,
It's basically straight forward, one piece at a time. You will do some work on every piece so to meet the 51% rule. Mostly trim, or cut and file. Lots of holes to drill to size and deburr, chromate and assemble. I built the whole plane by myself, would ca ll a friend when I needed to flip the wings. That was before I had a computer to draw on the knowledge base here. This group can help with any question.

flying
You wont find a Rebel owner that's not happy with the way it fly's...

and factory

support?

I always phoned MAM with a question, because I had no computer at the time.
And always got the help or answer that was needed.


What type of riviting does the rebel use?
AVEX Textron pulled rivets.

I never found out for sure on the

web site. I got enoug h nege tive responses on the zenair list I am leaning heavily twords the rebel at this point. Thanks everyone.

What ROGER #687R said about it being kind of over whelming when you open the shipping crate is very true. It's one of the few times in my life when I felt a little fear creep up on me. Like what the H*&## have I gotten myself into.< BR> Just organize it and put one piece at a time together and soner or later theirs no more pieces left, JUST one nice airplane.
Phil&Lisa Smith
#460R
N414D

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[Brian & Pat Cross]

Hi Brad

My advice. Buy the Rebel. Build exactly per plans, (don't spend way too much time like I did trying to change things), put an 0320 and a Sensenich prop on the front, focus on one job at a time, and then go flying. It is a great airplane. Viz is great, after learning on a 172, the handling is lovely, short fields are fun, fly at a busy flying club & show off to the elite in their underperforming & overpriced factory machines & grin.

The Rebel is now a mature aircraft. Lots of them built & the bugs are worked out. Get help from the list. Find somebody to help you build for the fun and camaraderie of it all. This will help you finish the aircraft if you are like me. If I was by myself, I would never finish. The Murphy folks are great & very very fair in all their dealings. I never ever felt they were taking me for a ride.

Lots of room in the aircraft so it is very comfortable even for big guys.

Other engines e.g. a Subaru, would be great but will definitely add significant time to your building & may make the aircraft harder to sell if you don't plan to keep it forever.

You will love the low speed handling. You can drop the rpm to 1700, slow down and just enjoy God's creation. And with the right paint job, it looks like a respectable aircraft.

What else can I say?

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Mike Davis
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 11:14 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Considering a rebel or zenair....


Hi Brad welcome to the list. You're in luck since one of our Rebel gurus also has a CH701... I would assume that as soon as Wayne has a chance to read his e-mail you will get some good feedback. I would add that I think you'll find very few complaints here regarding the Rebel as a finished aircraft (if any)... we lose feedback from to many builders once their flying because their having to much fun to bother with the list anymore. :-( As with any project this size there are bumps along the way during construction, but that's primarily what this group is for... there are currently about 200 builders around the world on this list sharing their experiences dealing with these "bumps" so a builder just getting there won't have to struggle with the same issues. Scanning through the archives (link at the bottom of every message) will also give you a good idea of the issues builders have run into with this kit... whether building related, dealing with the factory, or other.

Hope this helps... I'm sure Wayne will throw in his 0.00000000002 cents (Canadian) too.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Nielsenbe@aol.com (Nielsenbe@aol.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 10:39 PM
Subject: Considering a rebel or zenair....


I am considering building a rebel or zenair. I want an all metal highwing plane, STOL type. I got alot of response on the zenair list and would like the rebel point of view. This will be my fir st aircraft experience. I am just getting my private liscense now. How does the rebel rate on ease of construction, flying and factory support? What type of riviting does the rebel use? I never found out for sure on the web site. I got enough nege tive responses on the zenair list I am leaning heavily twords the rebel at this point. Thanks everyone.

Brad

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

I'm buried doing a few sets of corporate year end books for the good ol'
Canada Customs and Revenue Agency (and it doesn't look like I have that
0.000000002 to offer), but since you prompted me Mike I will throw out a
quick response.

The CH701 is a "toy" for flying within a stones throw of home. The Rebel is
a real airplane that I wouldn't hesitate to venture around the entire
continent in (if not further if I had the time to do so). The CH701 will
only be worth (for resale) about 2/3rds to 1/2 of what you have into it
(immediately after the first flight), were as the Rebel generally gets at
least it's parts costs recouped if not a fair part of your labour as well
(if built properly).

If you can crush a pop can without cutting yourself, you can build a
Rebel!!!

If you get down to the short strokes on your decission Brad, let us all know
and we will be glad to help as you go along. If you have a bit of common
sense, a drill and some patience you'll be flying in no time.

In addition, I like to be really up front and honest with this big
decission, even at the cost of insulting people. Just decide right now, up
front! Do you want to build something with your hands, or do you just want
something to fly. If you want something to fly, go out and buy a flying
aircraft. You can buy 3 fair Luscombe 8E's or F's for the price of the parts
that you will have in your one Rebel. This leaves you the ability to wreck 2
and still have the 3rd one to fly, once you have everything down pat, for
the same cost. The Luscombe won't be nearly as fun to fly, but you can have
3 for the price of one Rebel and you can fly the Luscombe (if the spar
carrythrough is good) tomorrow. The other option is to buy a finished and
flying Rebel, if you can find one that the owner is willing to part with.
Not an easy find. I haven't found a used "keeper" in the last year and a
half (and believe me, I have been looking). If you want to build an
airplane, that you can actually call your own, THEN THIS IS IT!!

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca


----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Davis
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Considering a rebel or zenair....


Hi Brad welcome to the list. You're in luck since one of our Rebel gurus
also has a CH701... I would assume that as soon as Wayne has a chance to
read his e-mail you will get some good feedback. I would add that I think
you'll find very few complaints here regarding the Rebel as a finished
aircraft (if any)... we lose feedback from to many builders once their
flying because their having to much fun to bother with the list anymore.
:-( As with any project this size there are bumps along the way during
construction, but that's primarily what this group is for... there are
currently about 200 builders around the world on this list sharing their
experiences dealing with these "bumps" so a builder just getting there won't
have to struggle with the same issues. Scanning through the archives (link
at the bottom of every message) will also give you a good idea of the issues
builders have run into with this kit... whether building related, dealing
with the factory, or other.

Hope this helps... I'm sure Wayne will throw in his 0.00000000002 cents
(Canadian) too.

Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Nielsenbe@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 10:39 PM
Subject: Considering a rebel or zenair....


I am considering building a rebel or zenair. I want an all metal highwing
plane, STOL type. I got alot of response on the zenair list and would like
the rebel point of view. This will be my fir st aircraft experience. I am
just getting my private liscense now. How does the rebel rate on ease of
construction, flying and factory support? What type of riviting does the
rebel use? I never found out for sure on the web site. I got enough nege
tive responses on the zenair list I am leaning heavily twords the rebel at
this point. Thanks everyone.

Brad




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[Legeorgen]

Brad,

Ditto to what Brian said about the Rebel. Well said Brian! I have only flown the demo plane but having built and flown another kit plane I will say you won't have a problem with MAM and there support.

Having listen to all the builders and flying members of this list for almost 2 years, I have never heard one person complain about the Rebel or it's flying characteristics. I have heard a few builders express frustration with MAM tech support but I person al have never had a problem with them. Brian and Grant have always been very responsive.

The list members have been the best support of all. Have a question or problem? Express it to the list and get several immediate answers from builders who have been there done that.

When I purchased my kit and discovered this list, I spent several days reading though the archives and learned more about this plane than you could building one by yourself. Thanks to Mike Davis our list server guru. Thanks Mike!!!

Good luck,

Bruce G 357R

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[Legeorgen]

Wayne,

I didn't know you had a CH701. I looked into that plane when I bought and built my Kitfox in 1998. I was glad I bought the Kitfox (another great company, by the way). I got a close look at a CH701 last year and was not very impressed.

Although I have flown my 912ULS Kitfox across many states and really have enjoyed this fine little aircraft, I wanted a plane that had a larger gross weight (a hauler) and was large enough to carry two people and cargo in comfort. Although I would never s ay this to my Kitfox pals, I refer to the Rebel as my real plane. I have so far, be it not very much however, less money in the Rebel than I do the Kitfox.

I want to thank all you Rebel builders and flyers for turning me on to this fine aircraft. I have no doubt I will enjoy it even more when I have it flying this summer!

Bruce G 357R

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[Nielsenbe]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I think the rebel is the way to go! The elite can haul a little more but it's 6 kilobucks more. I was shocked to see the firewall foward package was 5 thou bu t what can you do. I need to find a place to start building now. I will probably have to rent a hanger the whole building process. I have a garage but it is full of gunsmithing stuff, lathe, mill, shaper. Thanks for all the input and I will be lurking around the list to learn what I can while I figure out the logistics for getting started.

Thanks, Brad

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[LisaFly99]

In a message dated 3/30/02 3:22:55 AM Central Standard Time, Nielsenbe@aol.com writes:

I will probably have to ren t a hanger the whole building process.

BRAD
You can easily build the Rebel in a 16' X 24' building. Save the hanger rent, build another out building at home. That way it's always there to work on. Then move you're shop in when you're done and give the garage back to the ol-lady.
Phil&Lisa Smith
#460R

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Bruce, I don't tell too many about that! The CH701 is actually Leah's airplane, to fly when her health is up to the task. I bought it from the flying school when it closed up here in Midland, to get here back in the air solo, as it was the airplane she got her license in and she was comfortable flying it. I completly tore it down, after bringing it home, and totally reworked/reassembled before letting her loose with it!

I have never been impressed with Zenair's machines or/or their construction methods. I live right here within a stones throw of Chris Heinz and he is a <Great> guy that knows how to do stress calculations up the ying-yang by hand, but they build some really ugly and questionable assemblies out in the shop.

JMHO,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com (Legeorgen@cs.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Considering a rebel or zenair....


Wayne,

I didn't know you had a CH701. I looked into that plane when I bought and built my Kitfox in 1998. I was glad I bought the Kitfox (another great company, by the way). I got a close look at a CH701 last year and was not very impressed.

Although I have flown my 912ULS Kitfox across many states and really have enjoyed this fine little aircraft, I wanted a plane that had a larger gross weight (a hauler) and was large enough to carry two people and cargo in comfort. Although I would never s ay this to my Kitfox pals, I refer to the Rebel as my real plane. I have so far, be it not very much however, less money in the Rebel than I do the Kitfox.

I want to thank all you Rebel builders and flyers for turning me on to this fine aircraft. I have no doubt I will enjoy it even more when I have it flying this summer!

Bruce G 357R

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Brad, I used to say you couldn't put the engine mount kit together (with new parts) for the $4750Cdn it was last year, but now it's $4300US x 1.60 = $6880 Cdn so maybe you could.

Keep in mind that the stainless exhaust is going to cost you $1500 Cdn. There was a guy on www.barnstormers2000.com flogging some kit builders steel exhausts for 4 cyl Lyco's for around $300 if you want a temporary deal (mind you mine is one of MAM's original steel exhausts and thanks to regular flying and inside storage it is still going strong after 7 years), the engine mount from MAM last time I priced it was $800 (and not sure if that included the $340 worth of Lord mounts). The alternator kit will set you back $300 for anything similar. The oil cooler even if you go aftermarket with Newburgs CAM stuff $350. Oil and fuel lines $100 each x 3, if you have them made up for you. SCAT hose at $15/ft, duct flanges at $20 each x 3 or 4. Air intake box from aircraft spruce is $445 Cdn by the time you get it and they ship with a damn old style pleated filter in it that you will need to spend another $80 converting to a lipped Bracket BA-4106 foam filter assembly. Then there is the cowl material of choice (nose bowl and alum doors or "speed" cowl), the baffle material, gascolator, heck even the essex primer is now over $210 to buy from anywhere (they suddenly more than doubled 2 years back), throttle, mixture and carb heat cables, throttle cable ends, mag switch, etc etc etc.

But your right the difference in cost between the Elite and the Rebel will cover it for you!! I don't want to start an uproar about the Elite/Rebel pros/cons, but the useful loads are basically the same (if not actually a little better for the Rebel when all is built and weighed up)! Like everything else in life, it's all a matter of personal preference as to which to purchase!

The other guys are also correct that if you have to drive somewhere to work on it, you will have a hard time staying at it and getting it done. When I moved my first project out of my house garage over to my Plastics Plant it <NEVER> got worked on after hours. When it had been at home I would be out in the garage until 2 am on a regular schedule! I would come home at 5/5:30, have supper and hit the garage. Many pictures of goodnight kisses from the kids, in the garage, wearing their pj's and any large pair of boots they could find to put on to avoid the "chips of progress" on the floor! (were did all that time go, my son is now in University!!!!) I also believe it was Brian Cross that built his in the house, with the contingency deal that his wife got a new kitchen (since they had to rip out the wall to get the plane out!!!) Maybe Phil is right, add onto that garage, because even though they are not totally necessary for a sucessful build that lathe, shaper and mill you have will come in handy!!

Good luck,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: Nielsenbe@aol.com (Nielsenbe@aol.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: Considering a rebel or zenair....


Thanks everyone for the responses. I think the rebel is the way to go! The elite can haul a little more but it's 6 kilobucks more. I was shocked to see the firewall foward package was 5 thou bu t what can you do. I need to find a place to start building now. I will probably have to rent a hanger the whole building process. I have a garage but it is full of gunsmithing stuff, lathe, mill, shaper. Thanks for all the input and I will be lurking around the list to learn what I can while I figure out the logistics for getting started.

Thanks, Brad

[Brian & Pat Cross]

Hi Brad

I would think twice before I bought the firewall forward package from MAM. Just buy what you need & you will not need that stuff for years anyway.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Nielsenbe@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 1:31 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Considering a rebel or zenair....


Thanks everyone for the responses. I think the rebel is the way to go! The elite can haul a little more but it's 6 kilobucks more. I was shocked to see the firewall foward package was 5 thou bu t what can you do. I need to find a place to start building now. I will probably have to rent a hanger the whole building process. I have a garage but it is full of gunsmithing stuff, lathe, mill, shaper. Thanks for all the input and I will be lurking around the list to learn what I can while I figure out the logistics for getting started.

Thanks, Brad