Couple questions.

Joel Jacobs · Post by **Joel Jacobs** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

Howdy folks,
I'm just getting geared up for what I hope will be the final push to get my
airframe finished. I'm working on the fuselage cage area between the
tailcone and firewall. I've just ordered fus-28's for the door sills,
fuse-452's for the front lower corner wraps and fus-70's for the rest of the
corner wraps. I will re-make the to flat pieces fus-26, under the doors
with .032. I have the spring gear and made the solid inserts for the lower
carrythroughs. I have Wayne's firewall reinforcements. Anything I may be
forgetting? I'll be installing a Subaru EJ-2.2 and it's a bit heavy so I
want to beef up where needed.

I've been reading ahead in the manual and need to clarify a few things so
here goes:

1. Since I have spring gear should I still put in the rear landing gear
attach brackets? Do the floats attach here if I ever put it on floats? I
have installed the other float attach brackets.

2. Any tips on getting the flange on the fuselage root ribs straightened?
(without a shrinker).

3. The manual says to install an angle bracket between the upper door
sill - the one formed under the root rib - and the gusset on the door post.
It says to use the existing holes in the gusset. The manual does not say to
leave any rivets out in this area when I rivet the carrythrough assy
together. If I hold the root rib up to the carrythrough assy, it doesn't
look like either the bottom row or the second row up will line up for this
angle bracket - looks like somewhere in between would be optimal but there
are no existing holes there. If I make the angle bracket leg long enough, I
could pick up the lower row of holes and would probably add a couple 1/8"
rivets closer to the upper sill. That sound reasonable?

Any comments appreciated. Thanks a bunch!

Joel

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Mike Kimball · Post by **Mike Kimball** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

To straighten the flange on the fuselage ribs I bought some steel about 1/16
inch thick and 3/4 to an inch wide. (I had to buy twenty feet of it since
that was the minimum length but it only cost about $3.50.) I cut the strips
to fit the flange lengths and bent them in place, one on each side of the
flange. Then I used every C-clamp I own and squished the flange between the
two strips of steel. Worked great!

Mike Kimball
SR#044

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Joel Jacobs
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 7:27 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Couple questions.

Howdy folks,
I'm just getting geared up for what I hope will be the final push to get my
airframe finished. I'm working on the fuselage cage area between the
tailcone and firewall. I've just ordered fus-28's for the door sills,
fuse-452's for the front lower corner wraps and fus-70's for the rest of the
corner wraps. I will re-make the to flat pieces fus-26, under the doors
with .032. I have the spring gear and made the solid inserts for the lower
carrythroughs. I have Wayne's firewall reinforcements. Anything I may be
forgetting? I'll be installing a Subaru EJ-2.2 and it's a bit heavy so I
want to beef up where needed.

I've been reading ahead in the manual and need to clarify a few things so
here goes:

1. Since I have spring gear should I still put in the rear landing gear
attach brackets? Do the floats attach here if I ever put it on floats? I
have installed the other float attach brackets.

2. Any tips on getting the flange on the fuselage root ribs straightened?
(without a shrinker).

3. The manual says to install an angle bracket between the upper door
sill - the one formed under the root rib - and the gusset on the door post.
It says to use the existing holes in the gusset. The manual does not say to
leave any rivets out in this area when I rivet the carrythrough assy
together. If I hold the root rib up to the carrythrough assy, it doesn't
look like either the bottom row or the second row up will line up for this
angle bracket - looks like somewhere in between would be optimal but there
are no existing holes there. If I make the angle bracket leg long enough, I
could pick up the lower row of holes and would probably add a couple 1/8"
rivets closer to the upper sill. That sound reasonable?

Any comments appreciated. Thanks a bunch!

Joel

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

Joel, a quick reply! Will give thought to the other stuff later.

If you are beefing the corner wraps etc, as spelled out in your e-mail, you
should be making the FUS-26 from .040 (or sandwiching 2 x .020) and it's
important to make the triangular FUS-25 from .032. If you beef up everything
else and leave the FUS-25 at .020 it will be prone to buckling if you're
ever on floats.

This happened to Howard's on the initial test flight, when he MADE Bob land
out on the main lake in heavy waves.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@netexp.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:26 AM
Subject: Couple questions.

Howdy folks,
I'm just getting geared up for what I hope will be the final push to get

my

airframe finished. I'm working on the fuselage cage area between the
tailcone and firewall. I've just ordered fus-28's for the door sills,
fuse-452's for the front lower corner wraps and fus-70's for the rest of

the

corner wraps. I will re-make the to flat pieces fus-26, under the doors
with .032. I have the spring gear and made the solid inserts for the

lower

carrythroughs. I have Wayne's firewall reinforcements. Anything I may be
forgetting? I'll be installing a Subaru EJ-2.2 and it's a bit heavy so I
want to beef up where needed.

I've been reading ahead in the manual and need to clarify a few things so
here goes:

1. Since I have spring gear should I still put in the rear landing gear
attach brackets? Do the floats attach here if I ever put it on floats? I
have installed the other float attach brackets.

2. Any tips on getting the flange on the fuselage root ribs straightened?
(without a shrinker).

3. The manual says to install an angle bracket between the upper door
sill - the one formed under the root rib - and the gusset on the door

post.

It says to use the existing holes in the gusset. The manual does not say

to

leave any rivets out in this area when I rivet the carrythrough assy
together. If I hold the root rib up to the carrythrough assy, it doesn't
look like either the bottom row or the second row up will line up for this
angle bracket - looks like somewhere in between would be optimal but there
are no existing holes there. If I make the angle bracket leg long enough,

I

could pick up the lower row of holes and would probably add a couple 1/8"
rivets closer to the upper sill. That sound reasonable?

Any comments appreciated. Thanks a bunch!

Joel

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Joel Jacobs · Post by **Joel Jacobs** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

Oh man, I just knew there would be a easy way to do it. That sounds like it
will work real good! Thanks Mike!

Joel
Rebel 416

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Kimball" <mkimball@gci.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: Couple questions.

To straighten the flange on the fuselage ribs I bought some steel about

1/16

inch thick and 3/4 to an inch wide. (I had to buy twenty feet of it since
that was the minimum length but it only cost about $3.50.) I cut the

strips

to fit the flange lengths and bent them in place, one on each side of the
flange. Then I used every C-clamp I own and squished the flange between

the

two strips of steel. Worked great!

Mike Kimball
SR#044

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Joel Jacobs
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 7:27 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Couple questions.

2. Any tips on getting the flange on the fuselage root ribs straightened?
(without a shrinker).

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Joel Jacobs · Post by **Joel Jacobs** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

Thanks Wayne, I thought I was ready to rivet up the fus-25's tonight! I
have everything deburred and ready to go up to bulkhead 'F'. Guess not! I
have some .032 ordered and will hopefully get it this week so I'll make new
fus-25's before I start riveting. I went back through the archives and
searched for "Ontario mods" and found Bob's post that said the fus-26's
should be .032. So that's what I had planed and ordered stock for. Do I
really need to go on up to .040? That sounds like a bit of overkill. (plus
I don't have any) I don't plan to ever have it on floats - but you never
know...

Joel
Rebel 416

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Couple questions.

If you are beefing the corner wraps etc, as spelled out in your e-mail,

you

should be making the FUS-26 from .040 (or sandwiching 2 x .020) and it's
important to make the triangular FUS-25 from .032. If you beef up

everything

else and leave the FUS-25 at .020 it will be prone to buckling if you're
ever on floats.

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

Joel, the .032 will probably serve the purpose (or you could sandwich the
original .020's to them to be bullet proof, with the extra "torsion" you'll
need to control when on spring gear). When you make the new FUS-25's (your
call!), put a "brake" (crease) on the panel the follows the crease line
projection from the FUS-24's. This adds a little rigidity to the panel, but
mostly makes the fuselage lines cleaner, with a continuous crease from the
FUS-24 to the door panel. Otherwise you have a crease all the way from the
door post to the tail fin, with one blank panel in between (the FUS-25) and
it looks dumb! When you do your door skins get the frame fitted first. Then
locate the door skin so the crease is about 3/16 high at the FUS-25 to allow
for sag if a "normal" MAM style door. A little less allowance for sag if a
gullwing door.

For a cleaner looking door skin edge, leave the skin oversize to overlap the
door frame. Then slip the .032 pieces between the door frame and skin and
file to be flush with the door skin. Use proseal to bond the .032
reinforcing strips to the door skin on final assembly, for a beautifully
clean door finish. The .032 sticking out on it's own as shown in the manual,
once again, detracts from a clean "line"!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@netexp.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: Couple questions.

Thanks Wayne, I thought I was ready to rivet up the fus-25's tonight! I
have everything deburred and ready to go up to bulkhead 'F'. Guess not!

I

have some .032 ordered and will hopefully get it this week so I'll make

new

fus-25's before I start riveting. I went back through the archives and
searched for "Ontario mods" and found Bob's post that said the fus-26's
should be .032. So that's what I had planed and ordered stock for. Do I
really need to go on up to .040? That sounds like a bit of overkill.

(plus

I don't have any) I don't plan to ever have it on floats - but you never
know...

Joel
Rebel 416

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Couple questions.
If you are beefing the corner wraps etc, as spelled out in your e-mail,
you
should be making the FUS-26 from .040 (or sandwiching 2 x .020) and it's
important to make the triangular FUS-25 from .032. If you beef up
everything
else and leave the FUS-25 at .020 it will be prone to buckling if you're
ever on floats.

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

Joel, I put my two cents below each of your questions I had some thoughts
on. The ones I didn't, I just deleted.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@netexp.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:26 AM
Subject: Couple questions.

I'll be installing a Subaru EJ-2.2 and it's a bit heavy so I want to beef

up where needed.

Joel you should be happy with the Subaru. Had Mark Morin's (from St Laazar
Quebec) here for a couple weeks to do some mods and minor repairs to. Was a
Formula Power :>( :>(, then totally redone by Crossflow :>) :>) Sub2.2 with
Ross re-drive. When he left on Saturday I was quite impressed with the
performance. Off the ground in very soft grass/clay in less than 500 feet
and I would estimate a climb out of 1500 FPM, and I know he wasn't trying as
the ceiling was very low and it was raining!! Has inflight adjustable IVO
Magnum on it.

1. Since I have spring gear should I still put in the rear landing gear
attach brackets? Do the floats attach here if I ever put it on floats? I
have installed the other float attach brackets.

Is a handy place to hook the rear check cable for skis, or a possible step
attach for floats usage. Not to be used for ANY structural float strut
attachment though! You can always hook the ski cables to the main gear
saddles or the carrythrough, so I wouldn't worry about that. I would however
(and sounds like you did) build the cabin per the manual and leave the rear
double bulkheads the proper distance apart to install the FUS-45 fittings
and spacer at a later date in case you ever have to switch to the bungee
style gear legs for any reason. Have seen some shots of rebels being built
that were going on spring gear that had put these 2 bulkheads "back to back"
so this wouldn't be possible.

3. The manual says to install an angle bracket between the upper door
sill - the one formed under the root rib - and the gusset on the door

post.

It says to use the existing holes in the gusset. The manual does not say

to

leave any rivets out in this area when I rivet the carrythrough assy
together. If I hold the root rib up to the carrythrough assy, it doesn't
look like either the bottom row or the second row up will line up for this
angle bracket - looks like somewhere in between would be optimal but there
are no existing holes there. If I make the angle bracket leg long enough,

I

could pick up the lower row of holes and would probably add a couple 1/8"
rivets closer to the upper sill. That sound reasonable?

I think you are talking about the small piece of angle to peg the FUS-27 to
the forward carrythrough door post and your right, it doesn't line up with
the existing rivet holes in the gusset plate. I think the one they are
talking about to back drill through the "flange" is the actual bent tab that
is on the FUS-27 that picks up on the outer two rivets in the top
carrythough tube. The angle piece that you have to make for below the
FUS-27, joining it to the door post, usually ends up right were the hole is
in the gusset that was used to put the temporary bolt in. Just drill for a
#30 rivet on either side of the hole. Only needs enough to peg it square, as
you will be putting gussets on each side and a finishing cover over then to
round off and reinforce that corner anyhow.

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Joel Jacobs · Post by **Joel Jacobs** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>

Joel you should be happy with the Subaru. Had Mark Morin's (from St Laazar
Quebec) here for a couple weeks to do some mods and minor repairs to. Was

a

Formula Power :>( :>(, then totally redone by Crossflow :>) :>) Sub2.2

with

Ross re-drive. When he left on Saturday I was quite impressed with the
performance. Off the ground in very soft grass/clay in less than 500 feet
and I would estimate a climb out of 1500 FPM, and I know he wasn't trying

as

the ceiling was very low and it was raining!! Has inflight adjustable IVO
Magnum on it.

Thats good to hear. I did my own conversion from scratch. I have it on a
test stand and it seems to be running well. I don't have a prop yet and
will probably go with a three blade Warp drive. Was Marks IVO a two or
three bladed prop? I do like the looks of the IVO magnum..

Joel

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Joel Jacobs · Post by **Joel Jacobs** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

Thanks Wayne, good stuff here. I started making the new fus-25's this
morning and will put the crease in them. Where could I find more
information on the gull wing doors? I saw the pic's on Wrays web site and I
really like the observer look. I was thinking about using all lexan skins
on the stock doors. What is the benefit of the gull wing style? Easier to
seal since it's all one piece?

Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Couple questions.

Joel, the .032 will probably serve the purpose (or you could sandwich the
original .020's to them to be bullet proof, with the extra "torsion"

you'll

need to control when on spring gear). When you make the new FUS-25's (your
call!), put a "brake" (crease) on the panel the follows the crease line
projection from the FUS-24's. This adds a little rigidity to the panel,

but

mostly makes the fuselage lines cleaner, with a continuous crease from the
FUS-24 to the door panel. Otherwise you have a crease all the way from the
door post to the tail fin, with one blank panel in between (the FUS-25)

and

it looks dumb! When you do your door skins get the frame fitted first.

Then

locate the door skin so the crease is about 3/16 high at the FUS-25 to

allow

for sag if a "normal" MAM style door. A little less allowance for sag if a
gullwing door.

For a cleaner looking door skin edge, leave the skin oversize to overlap

the

door frame. Then slip the .032 pieces between the door frame and skin and
file to be flush with the door skin. Use proseal to bond the .032
reinforcing strips to the door skin on final assembly, for a beautifully
clean door finish. The .032 sticking out on it's own as shown in the

manual,

once again, detracts from a clean "line"!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

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Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

Three bladed in-flight adjustable, which my wife says made it look like
Pinocchio with it's hub motor on the forward side of the hub! He didn't run
a spinner on it because of the brush holder that allows for the power feed
to the hub motor is in the way for a conventional spinners backing plate.
Never thought to mention it to him when he was here, but could probably run
a UHS spinner on it as they only have a backing plate that mounts to the
front of the prop.

Will send you a picture off-line of his aircraft, so you can see what yours
might look like!

Regards,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@netexp.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Couple questions.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>

Joel you should be happy with the Subaru. Had Mark Morin's (from St

Laazar

Quebec) here for a couple weeks to do some mods and minor repairs to.

Was

a
Formula Power :>( :>(, then totally redone by Crossflow :>) :>) Sub2.2
with
Ross re-drive. When he left on Saturday I was quite impressed with the
performance. Off the ground in very soft grass/clay in less than 500

feet

and I would estimate a climb out of 1500 FPM, and I know he wasn't

trying

as
the ceiling was very low and it was raining!! Has inflight adjustable

IVO

Magnum on it.
Thats good to hear. I did my own conversion from scratch. I have it on a
test stand and it seems to be running well. I don't have a prop yet and
will probably go with a three blade Warp drive. Was Marks IVO a two or
three bladed prop? I do like the looks of the IVO magnum..

Joel

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Flyin B Ranch · Post by **Flyin B Ranch** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

Joel,
A couple questions on your conversion. How much ya got invested in it? Did ya do anything internally to the engine(head work ect.)? I am working on a project that I bought started and it came with all the FWF stuff for the Lyc. but I am getting frustrated at the prices they want for one these days. The price for a Subaru ready to bolt on is also a bit high and thought if I could convert a Subaru myself for $6~8 thou. It would be better than a run out Lyc for the same price.
Fall is in the air, Time to work on planes again.hehe
Bruce

Thats good to hear. I did my own conversion from scratch. I have it on a
test stand and it seems to be running well. I don't have a prop yet and
will probably go with a three blade Warp drive. Was Marks IVO a two or
three bladed prop? I do like the looks of the IVO magnum..

Joel

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Legeorgen · Post by **Legeorgen** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

Wayne,

I've been off line with the list server for several days so I missed much of
the correspondence. I'm interested in the Magnum electric pitch for my Rebel
and wouldn't mind seeing a picture of it as well.

Bruce G

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Rick Harper · Post by **Rick Harper** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

Bruce....
Just my 2 cents worth regarding the ( I assume) IVO Magnum propeller..

an aircraft engineer steered me away from this propeller when I was
interested re reports he had heard of them throwing blades away...and that
was on Rotax installations (ie: no "engine pulse" problems) !!! :-( If you
are going to bolt it direct to a Lycoming....I'd do a bit more research 1st
!

Sorry to rain on your picnic.....(but I've already had a carbon fibre
propeller try and take me out !!!)

Rick & Wendy Harper
----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@cs.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, 29 October 2001 11:29
Subject: Re: Couple questions.

Wayne,

I've been off line with the list server for several days so I missed much

of

the correspondence. I'm interested in the Magnum electric pitch for my

Rebel

and wouldn't mind seeing a picture of it as well.

Bruce G

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Bob Patterson · Post by **Bob Patterson** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

Hi Joel !

The gull-wing doors are supposed to be better for seaplane
operations - although some experienced float pilots say not, because
they'd be harder to open if inverted in the water.....

There should be some photos on the web site, and one of our
builders (Rick Ford) has offered his CAD drawings to anyone interested.

The Lexan door skins certainly improve visibility. Much like
the Breezy, they can make the seat seem a foot narrower for every
thousand feet higher you get ! ;-) They ARE a LOT noisier than
aluminum doors with upholstery and inside pockets - and a LOT colder,
too ! (Getting to be that time of year... :-( )

......bobp

------------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 04:04 PM 10/25/01 -0400, you wrote:
Thanks Wayne, good stuff here. I started making the new fus-25's this
morning and will put the crease in them. Where could I find more
information on the gull wing doors? I saw the pic's on Wrays web site and I
really like the observer look. I was thinking about using all lexan skins
on the stock doors. What is the benefit of the gull wing style? Easier to
seal since it's all one piece?

Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Couple questions.

Joel, the .032 will probably serve the purpose (or you could sandwich the
original .020's to them to be bullet proof, with the extra "torsion"
you'll
need to control when on spring gear). When you make the new FUS-25's (your
call!), put a "brake" (crease) on the panel the follows the crease line
projection from the FUS-24's. This adds a little rigidity to the panel,
but
mostly makes the fuselage lines cleaner, with a continuous crease from the
FUS-24 to the door panel. Otherwise you have a crease all the way from the
door post to the tail fin, with one blank panel in between (the FUS-25)
and
it looks dumb! When you do your door skins get the frame fitted first.
Then
locate the door skin so the crease is about 3/16 high at the FUS-25 to
allow
for sag if a "normal" MAM style door. A little less allowance for sag if a
gullwing door.

For a cleaner looking door skin edge, leave the skin oversize to overlap
the
door frame. Then slip the .032 pieces between the door frame and skin and
file to be flush with the door skin. Use proseal to bond the .032
reinforcing strips to the door skin on final assembly, for a beautifully
clean door finish. The .032 sticking out on it's own as shown in the
manual,
once again, detracts from a clean "line"!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

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Keith Oliver · Post by **Keith Oliver** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

I have been thinking about a set of doors much like a J-3 Cub

Ideas----Comments ???

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Bob Patterson
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 9:12 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Couple questions.

Hi Joel !

The gull-wing doors are supposed to be better for seaplane
operations - although some experienced float pilots say not, because
they'd be harder to open if inverted in the water.....

For a cleaner looking door skin edge, leave the skin oversize to overlap
the
door frame. Then slip the .032 pieces between the door frame and skin

and

file to be flush with the door skin. Use proseal to bond the .032
reinforcing strips to the door skin on final assembly, for a beautifully
clean door finish. The .032 sticking out on it's own as shown in the
manual,
once again, detracts from a clean "line"!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

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