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fuel tank venting

Converted from Wildcat! database. (read only)
klehman

Fuel tank venting

Post by klehman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:17 pm

Bingelis, in his books, recommends extending the vent to the far end of
the tank with a Cesna type vent so that fuel can't directly drain if
parked with either wing low. No mechanical valves but some syphoning
might theoretically still be possible. This has been discussed somewhat
in the archives. I have been told that those anti-syphon check valves
can be troublesome but I have never owned one.

I extended my cross vent to the outboard end of the tanks but left
everything else as per the Manual. I may put some kind of rain shield on
the actual vent opening. I really like simple fuel systems.

Ken

RJ Thomas wrote:
Guys,

I guess I have succumbed to the "Cessna did it, so it must be right"
syndrome; I am thinking about venting the fuel tanks with vents that exit
the bottom of the wing near the strut attachment points. I plan to install
a vent fitting in the outboard tank rib near the main spar. I think I need
a check valve or an anti-siphon loop or something in that vent line to
preclude the unwanted loss of fuel on the ramp, but cannot figure out what
exactly I would need to do here. Given that I don't have access to a Cessna
that I can disassemble, can anybody give me some guidance as to what is
acceptable practice?

Cheers, rj

R J Thomas
Lafayette, LA
Super Rebel 3500
N140SR


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Jason Beall

Fuel tank venting

Post by Jason Beall » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:17 pm

For what it's worth, the Cessna 170A I owned a few
years back had a vent, facing forward, on top of the
cabin...just like the Murphy design. I lived in Texas
at the time and never had a problem with fuel
expanding to the point that it ran overboard.

-Jason



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Super Rebel No. 131
Aberdeen, Scotland, UK
super_rebel131@yahoo.com

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RJ Thomas

Fuel tank venting

Post by RJ Thomas » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:17 pm

Good point.

My thanks to Jason, Ken and Chris for the input.

Cheers, rj

========================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: B&O Johnson [mailto:ob.johnson@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 8:01 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Fuel tank venting


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I don't understand why builders want to change Murphy's tried and proven
designs. I built my Rebel with the recommended fuel venting system and it
works great. The fuel caps supplied are vented in two places and I also
installed the recommended cross venting from the top of the sight tube
"tees" into an inverted "J" protruding out the left top wing fairing. Simple
and safe.


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Dale Kilbey

Fuel tank venting

Post by Dale Kilbey » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:21 pm

What I did was run a 1/4 " tube in through the outboard solid rib and up
under the inner flange of the fuel filler flange and then down through
the bottom of the wing as per Cessna.. It faces forward into the
slipstream putting a positive ram pressure in the tank . I did this on
both wings and also cross vented. I did not drill a vent hole in the
filler neck. Hope this helps.
Dale 220R




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Gozzi

Fuel Tank venting

Post by Gozzi » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:05 am

Gentlemen

In principle, I intend to install a venting system as per Tony Bingellis
suggestions, i.e. , with a 1/4" aluminum tube in each tank
interconnected in the fuselage with the vent up into the top of cabin
(inverted "T " configuration).

To do this I have to drill an hole in each root solid rib to fit the
aluminum tube, holding it either with a flange or with a threaded
connection.

Is this acceptable? I am bit worried in drilling another hole in the
solid rib (already has 2 for the fuel level and 1 for fuel outlet).
In case this is acceptable, is there a preferential position for those
new holes in the solid ribs?

Other suggested venting configurations would be also welcome.

After this I will be (finally!), in position to install the tank cover
and move to the left wing.

Thanks on advance for you advice(s).

Jose / Brazil - Rebel # 700



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Gozzi

Fuel Tank venting

Post by Gozzi » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Gentlemen

Thank you all for the lots of suggestions given on the subject.

I will put the vents up at the wing fairing as per Waine's and Bob's
suggestions. In this case, what would be the "safest" slope of the aluminum
tube in relation to the top wing skin in order to prevent syphoning? Or
should it be positioned in paralel to the top wing skin? I understand that
the tube/vent circuit should not have a "depression" between ends, where
fuel could stop and consequently neutralising the venting effect...

Bob / Dale, I have a doubt on your suggestions: HOW to fix the aluminum
tube in the top guage flange, from inside of the tank, using a "T" outside?
The flange is already riveted and prosealed in the root rib, hence my
initial idea of installing a fitting (AN-833-4D) in the root rib, just to
hold the tube in the rib.

Just one more thought on this subject, probably stupid: why not install the
tube vent at the wing fairing but in lower side of the wing (facing down)?
In this way, I think, shyphoning would be literally impossible to take place
(?!)

I hope to meet some of you, personally, at Sun'N'Fun! I understand thursday
will be the meeting day, right Bob?.

Jose / R#700

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank venting

Hi Jose !

You could just tee off the top fuel guage fittings,
as has been suggested, and, I believe, the factory recommends.
There is no problem with this arrangement - there WAS a problem
with tee-ing off the BOTTOM guage fitting for the fuel flow,
but you have avoided that.

Ken has an excellent suggestion on venting from the
top front outside corner of the tank, but a bit tricky to get
the tube in place inside the tank, I suspect ...

In any case, DO NOT put the vent in the center, over the
cockpit ! The last thing you want is a fuel shower overhead !
It would be better to put inverted "J" tubes through the wing
root-to-fuselage fairings, one on each side - this makes them
accessible for service, and keeps any spills clear of the cockpit
& windshield. These can work individually, for each tank, or you
can tee them together with a cross tube - just beware of the
cross-flow of fuel if a large slope is caused by a flat tire or
uneven ground. Just a suggestion !

......bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------
On Monday 22 March 2004 06:05 pm, you wrote:
Gentlemen

In principle, I intend to install a venting system as per Tony Bingellis
suggestions, i.e. , with a 1/4" aluminum tube in each tank
interconnected in the fuselage with the vent up into the top of cabin
(inverted "T " configuration).

To do this I have to drill an hole in each root solid rib to fit the
aluminum tube, holding it either with a flange or with a threaded
connection.

Is this acceptable? I am bit worried in drilling another hole in the
solid rib (already has 2 for the fuel level and 1 for fuel outlet).
In case this is acceptable, is there a preferential position for those
new holes in the solid ribs?

Other suggested venting configurations would be also welcome.

After this I will be (finally!), in position to install the tank cover
and move to the left wing.

Thanks on advance for you advice(s).

Jose / Brazil - Rebel # 700



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Gozzi

Fuel Tank venting

Post by Gozzi » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Many thanks, Bob

I will install an "horizontal" tube inside up to near the outboard tank
solid rib as you mentioned. To make a thread and fit the tube inside of the
upper guage flange, it has to have a very small outside diameter and then I
am afraid it will not provide the adequate venting.

Anyway, don't bother answering this, as we will have the opportunity to
discuss this and many other points at SNF.

I see you there!

Jose

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank venting

Hi Jose !

Not sure of your question - If the top guage flange is already
installed, just thread in a 'T' fitting on the cockpit side. One leg
of the tee goes to the top of the fuel guage tube, and the other leg
goes to the vent tube - you could use flexible hose to run this to a
fitting on the wing/fuse gap seal strip, and put an inverted "J"
tube on the outside of this strip.

If you are going to put a tube inside the tank, as Ken has
done, just thread a connecting fitting into the inside of the guage
flange, and connect up the tube to run out to the top front outside
corner of the inside of the tank. Then do the above on the cockpit
side of the flange - should be enough threads for both connections.

The idea of having the tube on top, extending up about 5"+,
is to keep it higher than the fuel could possibly get, even on a slope,
so no fuel could run out the vent. Putting it on the bottom would
almost guarantee the possibility of a siphon condition.

Thursday night IS the Rebel Builders Get-Together - and
the first round of beer is on me, as usual !! See you all there !! :-)

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------
On Tuesday 23 March 2004 09:26 am, you wrote:
Gentlemen

Thank you all for the lots of suggestions given on the subject.

I will put the vents up at the wing fairing as per Waine's and Bob's
suggestions. In this case, what would be the "safest" slope of the
aluminum
tube in relation to the top wing skin in order to prevent syphoning? Or
should it be positioned in paralel to the top wing skin? I understand
that
the tube/vent circuit should not have a "depression" between ends, where
fuel could stop and consequently neutralising the venting effect...

Bob / Dale, I have a doubt on your suggestions: HOW to fix the aluminum
tube in the top guage flange, from inside of the tank, using a "T"
outside?
The flange is already riveted and prosealed in the root rib, hence my
initial idea of installing a fitting (AN-833-4D) in the root rib, just
to
hold the tube in the rib.

Just one more thought on this subject, probably stupid: why not install
the
tube vent at the wing fairing but in lower side of the wing (facing
down)?
In this way, I think, shyphoning would be literally impossible to take
place
(?!)

I hope to meet some of you, personally, at Sun'N'Fun! I understand
thursday
will be the meeting day, right Bob?.

Jose / R#700

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank venting

Hi Jose !

You could just tee off the top fuel guage fittings,
as has been suggested, and, I believe, the factory recommends.
There is no problem with this arrangement - there WAS a problem
with tee-ing off the BOTTOM guage fitting for the fuel flow,
but you have avoided that.

Ken has an excellent suggestion on venting from the
top front outside corner of the tank, but a bit tricky to get
the tube in place inside the tank, I suspect ...

In any case, DO NOT put the vent in the center, over the
cockpit ! The last thing you want is a fuel shower overhead !
It would be better to put inverted "J" tubes through the wing
root-to-fuselage fairings, one on each side - this makes them
accessible for service, and keeps any spills clear of the cockpit
& windshield. These can work individually, for each tank, or you
can tee them together with a cross tube - just beware of the
cross-flow of fuel if a large slope is caused by a flat tire or
uneven ground. Just a suggestion !

......bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------
On Monday 22 March 2004 06:05 pm, you wrote:
Bingellis
cabin
those
cover
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Brian Godden

Fuel Tank venting

Post by Brian Godden » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Hi Jose,
Sounds fine, holes of this size don't really affect the strength.
Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Gozzi
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 3:06 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Fuel Tank venting

Gentlemen

In principle, I intend to install a venting system as per Tony Bingellis
suggestions, i.e. , with a 1/4" aluminum tube in each tank
interconnected in the fuselage with the vent up into the top of cabin
(inverted "T " configuration).

To do this I have to drill an hole in each root solid rib to fit the
aluminum tube, holding it either with a flange or with a threaded
connection.

Is this acceptable? I am bit worried in drilling another hole in the
solid rib (already has 2 for the fuel level and 1 for fuel outlet).
In case this is acceptable, is there a preferential position for those
new holes in the solid ribs?

Other suggested venting configurations would be also welcome.

After this I will be (finally!), in position to install the tank cover
and move to the left wing.

Thanks on advance for you advice(s).

Jose / Brazil - Rebel # 700



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klehman

Fuel Tank venting

Post by klehman » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Jose

That is what I did.
However because I extended the vent tube inside the tank up to the
forward outboard corner of the tank, I was able to locate the flange
about two inches below the top edge of the solid root rib where it would
not affect the strength of the rib. My thinking was that even if a flat
tire occurred, with the vent located outboard, the fuel could not flow
through the vent across the fueselage into the low wing tank and out the
low wing fuel cap.
Ken

Gozzi wrote:
Gentlemen

In principle, I intend to install a venting system as per Tony Bingellis
suggestions, i.e. , with a 1/4" aluminum tube in each tank
interconnected in the fuselage with the vent up into the top of cabin
(inverted "T " configuration).

To do this I have to drill an hole in each root solid rib to fit the
aluminum tube, holding it either with a flange or with a threaded
connection.

Is this acceptable? I am bit worried in drilling another hole in the
solid rib (already has 2 for the fuel level and 1 for fuel outlet).
In case this is acceptable, is there a preferential position for those
new holes in the solid ribs?

Other suggested venting configurations would be also welcome.

After this I will be (finally!), in position to install the tank cover
and move to the left wing.

Thanks on advance for you advice(s).

Jose / Brazil - Rebel # 700


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Wayne G. O'Shea

Fuel Tank venting

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Jose, my two cents is that you don't want it in the middle of the cabin
roof! Very hard place to preflight and check for a plugged vent. I really
prefer to put them in one of the wing root fairings. Same cross tube etc,
just put the tee in the root fairing area and pop the vent tube up through
the fairing. That way you can just step up on the tire or float step and
have a peek in the tube for pre-flight!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gozzi" <jose.l.gozzi@uol.com.br>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 6:05 PM
Subject: Fuel Tank venting

Gentlemen

In principle, I intend to install a venting system as per Tony Bingellis
suggestions, i.e. , with a 1/4" aluminum tube in each tank
interconnected in the fuselage with the vent up into the top of cabin
(inverted "T " configuration).

To do this I have to drill an hole in each root solid rib to fit the
aluminum tube, holding it either with a flange or with a threaded
connection.

Is this acceptable? I am bit worried in drilling another hole in the
solid rib (already has 2 for the fuel level and 1 for fuel outlet).
In case this is acceptable, is there a preferential position for those
new holes in the solid ribs?

Other suggested venting configurations would be also welcome.

After this I will be (finally!), in position to install the tank cover
and move to the left wing.

Thanks on advance for you advice(s).

Jose / Brazil - Rebel # 700



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Dale Kilbey

Fuel Tank venting

Post by Dale Kilbey » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Jose
It is not necessary to drill another hole in the rib. You can use the top
hole of the fuel guage and just use a "T" instead of an elbow.
Dale



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Jones, Michael

Fuel Tank venting

Post by Jones, Michael » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

dale

i have a bulletin from murphy stating that builders should not put 't' in
the line for the fuel level, can look up bulletin on weekend and post if you
like, think i says that there is chance of air lock on system

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Kilbey [mailto:dale.kilbey@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 9:45 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank venting


Jose
It is not necessary to drill another hole in the rib. You can use the top
hole of the fuel guage and just use a "T" instead of an elbow.
Dale



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Bob Patterson

Fuel Tank venting

Post by Bob Patterson » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Hi Jose !

You could just tee off the top fuel guage fittings,
as has been suggested, and, I believe, the factory recommends.
There is no problem with this arrangement - there WAS a problem
with tee-ing off the BOTTOM guage fitting for the fuel flow,
but you have avoided that.

Ken has an excellent suggestion on venting from the
top front outside corner of the tank, but a bit tricky to get
the tube in place inside the tank, I suspect ...

In any case, DO NOT put the vent in the center, over the
cockpit ! The last thing you want is a fuel shower overhead !
It would be better to put inverted "J" tubes through the wing
root-to-fuselage fairings, one on each side - this makes them
accessible for service, and keeps any spills clear of the cockpit
& windshield. These can work individually, for each tank, or you
can tee them together with a cross tube - just beware of the
cross-flow of fuel if a large slope is caused by a flat tire or
uneven ground. Just a suggestion !

......bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------
On Monday 22 March 2004 06:05 pm, you wrote:
Gentlemen

In principle, I intend to install a venting system as per Tony Bingellis
suggestions, i.e. , with a 1/4" aluminum tube in each tank
interconnected in the fuselage with the vent up into the top of cabin
(inverted "T " configuration).

To do this I have to drill an hole in each root solid rib to fit the
aluminum tube, holding it either with a flange or with a threaded
connection.

Is this acceptable? I am bit worried in drilling another hole in the
solid rib (already has 2 for the fuel level and 1 for fuel outlet).
In case this is acceptable, is there a preferential position for those
new holes in the solid ribs?

Other suggested venting configurations would be also welcome.

After this I will be (finally!), in position to install the tank cover
and move to the left wing.

Thanks on advance for you advice(s).

Jose / Brazil - Rebel # 700



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klehman

Fuel Tank venting

Post by klehman » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

Hi Mike

That raised one of my eyebrows too but the bulletin was only about
separating the fuel tank outlet to the engine from the bottom of the
sight gauge. Seems it is still OK to T into the top of the gauge for the
vent if you are not concerned about fuel migration and drainage when
parked on a slope or with a flat tire.

Ken

Jones, Michael wrote:
dale

i have a bulletin from murphy stating that builders should not put 't' in
the line for the fuel level, can look up bulletin on weekend and post if you
like, think i says that there is chance of air lock on system

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Kilbey [mailto:dale.kilbey@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 9:45 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank venting


Jose
It is not necessary to drill another hole in the rib. You can use the top
hole of the fuel guage and just use a "T" instead of an elbow.
Dale


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Jones, Michael

Fuel Tank venting

Post by Jones, Michael » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:09 am

HI KEN

where did you put your vent tubes, one or two, i was thinking of off the
outboard tank rib, one or two or maybe tee of vent holes on inboard rib,
also runing vent tube inside tank from inboard to outbard like you suggested

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: klehman@albedo.net [mailto:klehman@albedo.net]
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 11:45 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank venting


Actually one of the easiest mods that I did ;) Back to back 1/8 NPT
flanges on the root rib and a 1/4" aluminum tube along the top of the
spar through the cutouts that are already there at the top of the ribs.
Some proseal to keep it from chafing and a bracket or clip to hold the
outboard end of the tube.
Ken
Ken has an excellent suggestion on venting from the
top front outside corner of the tank, but a bit tricky to get
the tube in place inside the tank, I suspect ...

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