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Bungee gear

Converted from Wildcat! database. (read only)
Mike Davis

Bungee gear

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:51 pm

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Message-Id: <E0zdoFP-0001bF-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:20:44 -0500


"After all they are the only ones >that has all the data."

I'm sure they wish they were !! One of their problems is that MAM
doesn't hear back from MANY builders - they move, complete their kit,
go flying, and don't tell anybody....

For years now, Murphy has been offering $50 credit for each picture
of your completed Murphy Aircraft that gets published in an aviation
publication (Kitplanes also offers a chance to win a radio or GPS) -
probably fewer than 10 builders have taken advantage of this !!!!

You know the old saying -" If you're unhappy, tell us about
your problems - if you're happy, please tell all your friends about
our kits !!"

The problems that the group is discussing are all recent
discoveries, IN THE FIELD. Murphy has not seen these problems on their
OWN aircraft, so can only help with fixes IF the builders TELL them,
with photographs & descriptions in detail. I'm sure that there would
be more immediate response from the factory if they had more information,
FIRST HAND, directly from the builders - the original "floatfix"
was released within weeks of seeing the problem first hand ...

Some of the problems are induced by builders "ad libbing"
in areas THEY think are unimportant - my pet peeve is substituting
other "paints" for the epoxy chromate primer (Polyfiber) SUPPLIED
WITH THE KIT !!! MAM didn't include it for any other reason than
"It's THE best way to join 2 pieces of aluminum".

The American Yankee, several of Jim Bede's designs, and
all of Richard Schreder's later designs were HELD TOGETHER with this
stuff (hardly ANY rivets). It is NOT ONLY a good corrosion proofer,
BUT, most importantly, acts as an adhesive, bonding the parts together,
and greatly improving the STRENGTH of sheet metal joints - otherwise,
ALL of the load is carried by the RIVET. With the bonding, the load
is spread over a much larger area, and the effective strength of the
join is considerably improved.

Sorry, just one of MY personal hobby-horses ..... Have flown
many hours in gliders & powered aircraft held together with epoxy
chromate - I like it !! (Owned a Schreder HP for over 23 years)

Anyway - keep the info flowing TO THE FACTORY. They may not
have IMMEDIATE answers, but at least they'll know there IS a problem.

THANKS !!!
.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 10:02 AM 11/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
In monitoring the E mail one can keep up on a lot. But why can`t MAM
do what they should be doing and keep all the builders informed of
all changes and all safety items? After all they are the only ones
that has all the data. I think they owe it to us. Lets keep the
guessing game out of flying! Hope they here from all on this matter.


Don





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Mike Davis

Bungee gear

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:51 pm

Received: from tim - 208.251.189.56 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC;
Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:26:05 -0800
Reply-To: <tlcarter@msn.com>
From: "Tim Carter" <tlcarter@email.msn.com>
To: "'Murphy Rebel'" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: Bungee gear
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:43:26 -0800
Message-ID: <000901be0f53$0d9c4580$2a640a80@tim>
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Bob,

Along the lines of your first comment...

I personally have asked the tech folks to get involved on this mail-list,
and to make direct comments to it.

I get something back along the lines of it not being factory
sanctioned...also, I know they will not join frequently in the Rebel Rouser
discussions either.

You are the closest one we have to direct factory feedback in this forum,
and I appreciate that.

MAM, although always VERY very helpful when called directly, could invest in
the builder community by actively participating in this mail-list. Then
they would get the information from builders and flyers.

Tim C
#438R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 8:21 PM
To: Murphy Rebel
Subject: Re: Bungee gear



"After all they are the only ones >that has all the data."

I'm sure they wish they were !! One of their problems is that MAM
doesn't hear back from MANY builders - they move, complete their kit,
go flying, and don't tell anybody....

For years now, Murphy has been offering $50 credit for each picture
of your completed Murphy Aircraft that gets published in an aviation
publication (Kitplanes also offers a chance to win a radio or GPS) -
probably fewer than 10 builders have taken advantage of this !!!!

You know the old saying -" If you're unhappy, tell us about
your problems - if you're happy, please tell all your friends about
our kits !!"

The problems that the group is discussing are all recent
discoveries, IN THE FIELD. Murphy has not seen these problems on their
OWN aircraft, so can only help with fixes IF the builders TELL them,
with photographs & descriptions in detail. I'm sure that there would
be more immediate response from the factory if they had more information,
FIRST HAND, directly from the builders - the original "floatfix"
was released within weeks of seeing the problem first hand ...

Some of the problems are induced by builders "ad libbing"
in areas THEY think are unimportant - my pet peeve is substituting
other "paints" for the epoxy chromate primer (Polyfiber) SUPPLIED
WITH THE KIT !!! MAM didn't include it for any other reason than
"It's THE best way to join 2 pieces of aluminum".

The American Yankee, several of Jim Bede's designs, and
all of Richard Schreder's later designs were HELD TOGETHER with this
stuff (hardly ANY rivets). It is NOT ONLY a good corrosion proofer,
BUT, most importantly, acts as an adhesive, bonding the parts together,
and greatly improving the STRENGTH of sheet metal joints - otherwise,
ALL of the load is carried by the RIVET. With the bonding, the load
is spread over a much larger area, and the effective strength of the
join is considerably improved.

Sorry, just one of MY personal hobby-horses ..... Have flown
many hours in gliders & powered aircraft held together with epoxy
chromate - I like it !! (Owned a Schreder HP for over 23 years)

Anyway - keep the info flowing TO THE FACTORY. They may not
have IMMEDIATE answers, but at least they'll know there IS a problem.

THANKS !!!
.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 10:02 AM 11/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
In monitoring the E mail one can keep up on a lot. But why can`t MAM
do what they should be doing and keep all the builders informed of
all changes and all safety items? After all they are the only ones
that has all the data. I think they owe it to us. Lets keep the
guessing game out of flying! Hope they here from all on this matter.


Don






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Mike Davis

Bungee gear

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:51 pm

Received: from [137.186.224.128] (helo=ms01-128.tor.istar.ca)
by mail2.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2)
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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: RE: Bungee gear
Message-Id: <E0zeWlu-0003Ki-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:53:14 -0500


Thanks <blush> - I try ....

Like many companies, Murphy is just realizing the power of the 'NET
- they readily went for the web site for advertising, and recently for
communications of service bulletins, but have yet to appreciate the full
value of this forum for BUILDER SUPPORT.

I think you are on the right track :
I personally have asked the tech folks to get involved on this mail-list,
and to make direct comments to it.
If more of us do that, they will realize that IT IS WELL WORTH THE
EXPENSE OF DEDICATING THE TIME OF A SUPPORT PERSON TO THIS LIST. Like any
business, they must see a benefit from the cost - "HAPPY CUSTOMERS" is a
VERY IMPORTANT BENEFIT ! Also, REDUCED SUPPORT COSTS, because a question
is answered ONCE, for DOZENS OF BUILDERS.

(I'm emphasizing in the hopes that someone at the factory is
tuned in today !!)

The 'NET is growing very quickly in popularity - even 3 years
ago, this list would have reached only a few builders. As time goes on,
almost everybody will be listening in, and the value keeps increasing !!

....bobp
----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 01:43 PM 11/13/98 -0800, you wrote:
Bob,

Along the lines of your first comment...

I personally have asked the tech folks to get involved on this mail-list,
and to make direct comments to it.

I get something back along the lines of it not being factory
sanctioned...also, I know they will not join frequently in the Rebel Rouser
discussions either.

You are the closest one we have to direct factory feedback in this forum,
and I appreciate that.

MAM, although always VERY very helpful when called directly, could invest
in
the builder community by actively participating in this mail-list. Then
they would get the information from builders and flyers.

Tim C
#438R

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 8:21 PM
To: Murphy Rebel
Subject: Re: Bungee gear



"After all they are the only ones >that has all the data."

I'm sure they wish they were !! One of their problems is that MAM
doesn't hear back from MANY builders - they move, complete their kit,
go flying, and don't tell anybody....

For years now, Murphy has been offering $50 credit for each picture
of your completed Murphy Aircraft that gets published in an aviation
publication (Kitplanes also offers a chance to win a radio or GPS) -
probably fewer than 10 builders have taken advantage of this !!!!

You know the old saying -" If you're unhappy, tell us about
your problems - if you're happy, please tell all your friends about
our kits !!"

The problems that the group is discussing are all recent
discoveries, IN THE FIELD. Murphy has not seen these problems on their
OWN aircraft, so can only help with fixes IF the builders TELL them,
with photographs & descriptions in detail. I'm sure that there would
be more immediate response from the factory if they had more information,
FIRST HAND, directly from the builders - the original "floatfix"
was released within weeks of seeing the problem first hand ...

Some of the problems are induced by builders "ad libbing"
in areas THEY think are unimportant - my pet peeve is substituting
other "paints" for the epoxy chromate primer (Polyfiber) SUPPLIED
WITH THE KIT !!! MAM didn't include it for any other reason than
"It's THE best way to join 2 pieces of aluminum".

The American Yankee, several of Jim Bede's designs, and
all of Richard Schreder's later designs were HELD TOGETHER with this
stuff (hardly ANY rivets). It is NOT ONLY a good corrosion proofer,
BUT, most importantly, acts as an adhesive, bonding the parts together,
and greatly improving the STRENGTH of sheet metal joints - otherwise,
ALL of the load is carried by the RIVET. With the bonding, the load
is spread over a much larger area, and the effective strength of the
join is considerably improved.

Sorry, just one of MY personal hobby-horses ..... Have flown
many hours in gliders & powered aircraft held together with epoxy
chromate - I like it !! (Owned a Schreder HP for over 23 years)

Anyway - keep the info flowing TO THE FACTORY. They may not
have IMMEDIATE answers, but at least they'll know there IS a problem.

THANKS !!!
.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 10:02 AM 11/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
In monitoring the E mail one can keep up on a lot. But why can`t MAM
do what they should be doing and keep all the builders informed of
all changes and all safety items? After all they are the only ones
that has all the data. I think they owe it to us. Lets keep the
guessing game out of flying! Hope they here from all on this matter.


Don








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Mike Davis

Bungee gear

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:51 pm

Received: from RebelAir@aol.com
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for <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:48:23 -0500 (EST)
From: RebelAir@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:48:23 EST
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Subject: Re: Bungee gear
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When was the floatfix released? By the sound of the email, obviously not
everyone has received the document and there also appears to be an update
neither which I have received.

Information is flowing TO the factory but not FROM the factory. I am still
waiting a reply from MAM on items I called about on October 14. Despite
calls, promises, and another courteous reminder fax. I know they mean well
as
they are as helpful as can be on the phone, but they must be overloaded as
the
follow through is not there currently. Also the Web tech support is not
available for the last week. Is this down for everyone or just me?

Mike Davis

Bungee gear

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:51 pm

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Floatfix.doc August 25,1998

Notices Floatfix Oct.15,1998
I could not access this today either.

Ken


RebelAir@aol.com wrote:
When was the floatfix released?



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Mike Davis

Bungee gear

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:51 pm

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Could it be because when you increase the size of bolt you effectively
decrease
the strength of the leg itself (removal of material). Making a bushing out
of
aluminum works well. Take a length of aluminum, drill a 3\8" hole through
it and
then use a hole saw the size of the leg to cut the length in half. Then put
large washers on the ends. This increases the bearing area of the bungees
yet
does nothing to weaken the leg itself, actually strengthens this area with
compressive forces. Daryl liked this when I showed it to him at Oshkosh 95.
But
they were already changing to the spring gear so what was the use. I have
never
had a bent bolt and the bungees seem to work better when wrapped around a
larger
surface. I do know that in my ground loop, the leg compression fractured at
the
bolt holes so making them bigger is not a good idea.
Dave

RebelAir@aol.com wrote:
I talked to Grant the other day ie last Thursday, (Nov. 5), and he was
very
clear that MAM does not want us to upgrade the inner 3/8" bolt to 7/16" or
1/2". I believe Alister mentioned that they OK the increase in bolt size.

I do not see any problem with it myself and it seems like a good idea
considering the concern. I just wonder why there are two messages about
this
and which one is right?

Comments?

Brian #328




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Mike Davis

Bungee gear

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:51 pm

Received: from RebelAir@aol.com
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for <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:16:55 +1900 (EST)
From: RebelAir@aol.com
Message-ID: <6e2f717a.364fa737@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:16:55 EST
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
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Ken

Thanks again for getting back to me on this. I have been concerned quite a
bit about this and want to do it right the first time if possible. Not sure
if the people with problems are using their Rebs in rough conditions or
what.
How far do you go in beefing up your airplane. Certainly do not want an
1100
lb. empty weight!

Happy building!


Brian

Mike Davis

Bungee gear

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:51 pm

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id 0zfRGx-0001Ge-00; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:13:04 -0800
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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Murphy Aircraft Tech Department <murtech@murphyair.com >
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:13:04 -0800

You can increase the size of the inner bolt to 7/16", but the bolts must
still be checked frequently to see if they are working loose . The larger
size bolt will be able to take larger stress loads but these laods will have
to go somewhere.

MAM

At 11:54 PM 11/13/98 EST, you wrote:
I talked to Grant the other day ie last Thursday, (Nov. 5), and he was very
clear that MAM does not want us to upgrade the inner 3/8" bolt to 7/16" or
1/2". I believe Alister mentioned that they OK the increase in bolt size.

I do not see any problem with it myself and it seems like a good idea
considering the concern. I just wonder why there are two messages about
this
and which one is right?

Comments?


Brian #328

Murphy Aircraft Mfg. Ltd.
Ph: 1-604-792-5855
Fax: 1-604-792-7006
e-mail: murtech@murphyir.com
Web Site: http://www.murphyair.com




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Mike Davis

Bungee gear

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:51 pm

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Message-Id: <E0zfvBw-0006kZ-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:09:52 -0500


Brian,
Alister is talking about using a larger bolt to fasten the SPRING
gear, Dave was talking about larger bolts for the BUNGEES.

The factory does recommend a larger bolt for the bungees than
THE OLD ORIGINAL, but, as Dave points out, an even larger bolt means a
weaker gear tube !

Dave's suggestion to use sleeves or 'spindles' over the bolts,
between the gear tube & the penny washer, is EXCELLENT. I know of folks
who have made these out of DELRIN or NYLON, and they work well. They
stiffen the bolt, by loading it in tension, AND provide a larger bearing
surface for the bungees, letting them slide more easily.

I'm not sure about larger bolts for the spring gear - again, it
would depend on edge distance. Perhaps possible, with the use of doubler
plates, or additional bolts toward the center .... Let's wait and hear
what advice Alister gets from the factory !

.....bobp

-----------------------------orig.----------------------------------
At 11:54 PM 11/13/98 EST, you wrote:
I talked to Grant the other day ie last Thursday, (Nov. 5), and he was very
clear that MAM does not want us to upgrade the inner 3/8" bolt to 7/16" or
1/2". I believe Alister mentioned that they OK the increase in bolt size.

I do not see any problem with it myself and it seems like a good idea
considering the concern. I just wonder why there are two messages about
this
and which one is right?

Comments?


Brian #328





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Mike Davis

Bungee gear

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:51 pm

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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 00:20:29 EST
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
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Hi Bob

Thanks for your thoughts. There sure is alot of things to think about in
airplane building whether your thinking engine, gear, avionics etc.etc. It
also is odd. Before I started building Rebels, I had spare time. I am
having
fun for the most part but it does keep the brain engaged.

Thanks and see you soon.


Brian #328R



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Mike Davis

Bungee gear

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:52 pm

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Message-ID: <35d50664.366af740@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 16:29:36 EST
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
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Hello There

I am interested to know if people are going to continue to subscribe to the
Rebel Rouser. It seems to me that the Web is serving our needs pretty well
but if others disagree I will resubscribe to the Rouser to help them keep
things going.

Comments?

Brian #328R

Curtis Langholz

Bungee Gear

Post by Curtis Langholz » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:07 pm

I am building my Rebel #175 bungee gear and am in need of some advice.
In the original manual it says to use AN5-35A bolts for the bungee at a 90 degrees to each other which would make the bungee be in a U from the top bolt to the lower bolt. In the new manual it specs AN6-35A for the bungee with the bolts paralell to each other so it would be like a large O ring. Is the new method better than the old? Are the AN5 bolts OK or do I need to get some AN6 instead? Also the original specs for the safety cable of 1/8", the new uses 3/16". I have the roll of 1/8" that came with the kit. Is it strong enough or do I need the 3/16"?
I purchaced Cleveland wheels, brakes, axles for it as well. But that will be another discussion.
Thanks a bunch,
Curtis




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