Sloshing Compound or drip?

[hibbs]

I am slightly deflated. I have been working on my fuel tanks for some
time. Here is the situation:

1. Left wing holds 1-2 PSI for an hour or two, slowly running down. I
can't find the leak. I suspect it is under the skin somewhere that I
can't reach or see (yes my top and bottom skins are already in place).
It won't leak water. As far as I can tell I have 4 grim options: A -
Leave it alone and see if it develops a fuel stain during the first 6
months or so of flying. B - Find a sloshing compound that can handle
Auto and Aviation fuel without working loose and plugging the outlet. C
- Take the top wing skin clear off (drilling out the main spar,
stringers, etc.) to try and find the leak. D - cutting access holes in
the bottom wing skin all the way around the tank so that I can find the
leak. Given those options, if anyone can suggest a sloshing compound
that they have used regularly with aviation fuel and auto fuel, I'll
wimp out and opt for B.

2. Right wing has a good sized leak that I can't plug from the outside.
I have pulled off the access panel I put in the center bay and I'll
build a fortress of pro-seal around the area of the leak.


I have restored 5-6 airplanes, but between the bungees and the pro-seal,
this has been the most challenging. I am still excited to fly this
bird!

--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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[Rebflyer]

Well Scott, those are not good signs, but they can be overcome.
A suggestion for finding the unfindable. If you have access to an inert
gas and a sniffer,maybe through a friend in the a/c business, fill the tank
and go sniffing. I know this is probably a silly question, but have you tried
soapsuds? You should really be able to find the bubbles at that rate.
As for building the dam on the other one, Try the slight vacum method. In
other words, pull a mild vacum in your tank while the material is still
pliable. There are also more liquid types of sealpac, that are even
considered brushable. You still have to prepare the surface properly. Also
Ken mentioned at the last builders meeting somthing about an additive that
the Mooneys use to make sure that the new clings to the old. Ken?
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[LisaFly99]

In a message dated 1/13/01 7:08:57 PM Central Standard Time,
hibbs@pacifier.com writes:

I am slightly deflated. I have been working on my fuel tanks for some
time. Here is the situation:

SCOTT
They do make slosh compounds for AV or AUTO but I don't think there is one
compatible for both. But don't slosh if there are any other options! If you
slosh for AV gas and get some contaminated with Auto gas or alcohol KISS the
slosh good by. If you slosh for Auto gas and have to put in AV gas KISS the
slosh good by. It's a no win situation. I sloshed my left tank to stop an
over night leak down before I new how much a problem it could be. Now every
time I leave the ground I / Well you can imagine the nagging little feeling
you could get.
Phil&Lisa Smith #460 N414D
PS Wayne's on Vacation but BOB P. could probably answer about Pro-seal that
is of a paintable consistently. OR try ( www.prc-desoto.com/ )

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[Bob Patterson]

Cheer up, Scott ! Maybe it's just leaking at the filler cap, or one
of the connections ... (have to be an optimist ! ;-) )

We've seen SO many REALLY UGLY messes that <I> would not even
THINK ABOUT trying sloshing !! (See Wayne's recent comments in the
archives ...) Proper <surface prep> is really the key, and
putting 'stuff' on top of pro-seal hasn't worked for MANY !

To produce a slight vacuum, just put a Shop-Vac hose into the
filler - DO NOT pack it tightly, with rags, or anything ! The suction
will be enough to slightly lower the pressure & suck the Pro-Seal in
from outside. You should try the thinner version of Pro-Seal - I'm
sure the number is in the archives, too. This might work for BOTH
tanks. (OR - if you DO put a lot of Pro-Seal on the inside, you
might want to try adding a bit of <positive> pressure to force it out.
Not for too long, though - or you'll blow out the hole again !!)

One of our builders suggested putting a bright light inside
the tank, and peering down the outside in a darkened room - might
help if the leak is on the ends...

At least one builder has been able to apply Pro-Seal to the
inside by fastening a small brush to a piece of brake line tubing,
bending it to fit, and working with a dentist's mirror & flashlight !
It beat cutting holes, and worked for him !! :-) I sure admire
his patience !

Sounds like the best option might be E: add an oval access
panel to the center bay on the other tank as well, and go in that
way to add Pro-Seal to the inside top. (Oval, of course, so you
can slip the inside doubler ring in through the hole in one piece.)

It's too bad the original builder didn't test the tanks
<BEFORE> putting on the wing skins !! There's a good lesson here
for builders who haven't reached this point yet !!!

Good Luck !!!

.....and - KEEP BUILDING - IT <REALLY> IS WORTH IT !!!

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 08:21 PM 1/13/01 EST, you wrote:

Well Scott, those are not good signs, but they can be overcome.
A suggestion for finding the unfindable. If you have access to an inert
gas and a sniffer,maybe through a friend in the a/c business, fill the tank
and go sniffing. I know this is probably a silly question, but have you tried
soapsuds? You should really be able to find the bubbles at that rate.
As for building the dam on the other one, Try the slight vacum method. In
other words, pull a mild vacum in your tank while the material is still
pliable. There are also more liquid types of sealpac, that are even
considered brushable. You still have to prepare the surface properly. Also
Ken mentioned at the last builders meeting somthing about an additive that
the Mooneys use to make sure that the new clings to the old. Ken?
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am slightly deflated. I have been working on my fuel tanks for some
time. Here is the situation:

1. Left wing holds 1-2 PSI for an hour or two, slowly running down. I
can't find the leak. I suspect it is under the skin somewhere that I
can't reach or see (yes my top and bottom skins are already in place).
It won't leak water. As far as I can tell I have 4 grim options: A -
Leave it alone and see if it develops a fuel stain during the first 6
months or so of flying. B - Find a sloshing compound that can handle
Auto and Aviation fuel without working loose and plugging the outlet. C
- Take the top wing skin clear off (drilling out the main spar,
stringers, etc.) to try and find the leak. D - cutting access holes in
the bottom wing skin all the way around the tank so that I can find the
leak. Given those options, if anyone can suggest a sloshing compound
that they have used regularly with aviation fuel and auto fuel, I'll
wimp out and opt for B.

2. Right wing has a good sized leak that I can't plug from the outside.
I have pulled off the access panel I put in the center bay and I'll
build a fortress of pro-seal around the area of the leak.


I have restored 5-6 airplanes, but between the bungees and the pro-seal,
this has been the most challenging. I am still excited to fly this
bird!

--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------*

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[klehman]

Details are in the archives, but for surfaces that are not new or that
have seen fuel, use of the adhesion promoter is highly recommended when
doing repairs. I think you do not need it if the surfaces are still
clean and new.

Ken mentioned at the last builders meeting somthing about an additive that
the Mooneys use to make sure that the new clings to the old. Ken?

Scott

If you are sure you have a leak you might consider cutting the access
hole into the bottom .040 tank bottom rather than opening the wing skin.
The top of the tank, especially in the outer bay around the stringers
seems to be the worst area for leaks. The A proseal is the brushable
stuff versus the B that MAM supplies. THe A is still fairly viscous. I
covered pretty much everything inside my tank from an access hole in the
middle bay but I also installed the tank baffles through the access hole
after brushing. As Bob says, I also had a devil of a time sealing the
gas cap opening when I tested my tanks, so check it carefully.

Regarding the freon sniffer. THese have their uses but they don't work
well inside an enclosed space unless the leak is too small to
contaminate the space. I have found freon leaks with soap bubbles that a
freon sniffer could not locate. THe sniffer confirmed the leak but could
not locate it.

The PRC rep that I talked to definately only considered the sloshing
compound to be a temporary repair.

Good luck
Ken

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[hibbs]

Well, I did some research on the NTSB site. I have tossed option B
(sloshing) out the proverbial window. There are just too many accidents
with many kinds of sloshing compounds. I am making progress by slowly
filling the Small Leak Tank (SLT) with water and re-pressurizing it at
each new level. At about 5 inches of water, the leak slowed down and I
began to find a small puddle so I have determined the location of at
least one leak in the SLT to within a 22" area. The Big Leak Tank (BLT)
is drying out and I will tackle the Proseal fortress during the next
several days. Thanks for all the advice.

--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com
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[Rick and Cathy Ford]

Scott

I'm in the same boat as you.
I sealed my tanks, and before putting the top on, did a leak test (with
water).
Unfortunately, water is thicker than gas and doesn't show al the leaks.
After I put the top on, I found fuel leaks going through the string holes in
the upper wing rib.

I ended up making 5 access holes in each wing and each bay around the tank.
I got most of the leaks sealed up, but still had small leaks going through
some rivets in the upper tank skin.
Now 2 years later I have developed a worse leak in the right tank. Over the
past 3 weeks my right tank drain down to about 2 gals.

I'm to the point now that I'm just going to slosh the tanks and that's it.
I've talked to a maintenance dept. at a local aviation company and they said
that they slosh some tanks.
I guess if they do it, the so am I. I don't expect to get every leak using
proseal, especially the rivets on the upper tank skin. And if I do, how long
is it before the next one appears.
A number of tank rivets split on the end and opened up like a can of beans.
Talking to the boys at Avdel Textron - rivet manufacturer (Noel Perigroe -
sales manager, and Rick Bevan - General manager)
I found out if the rivet does that, then they have been pulled too far and
we should have been using shorter rivets.

Anyway Scott, if you don't mind spending alot of time chasing leaks and
putting up with the mess it creates, continue with the proseal only. If not,
then maybe sloshing is really the answer in this case.

Rick Ford
436R

----- Original Message -----
From: hibbs <hibbs@pacifier.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 8:13 PM
Subject: Sloshing Compound or drip?

I am slightly deflated. I have been working on my fuel tanks for some
time. Here is the situation:

1. Left wing holds 1-2 PSI for an hour or two, slowly running down. I
can't find the leak. I suspect it is under the skin somewhere that I
can't reach or see (yes my top and bottom skins are already in place).
It won't leak water. As far as I can tell I have 4 grim options: A -
Leave it alone and see if it develops a fuel stain during the first 6
months or so of flying. B - Find a sloshing compound that can handle
Auto and Aviation fuel without working loose and plugging the outlet. C
- Take the top wing skin clear off (drilling out the main spar,
stringers, etc.) to try and find the leak. D - cutting access holes in
the bottom wing skin all the way around the tank so that I can find the
leak. Given those options, if anyone can suggest a sloshing compound
that they have used regularly with aviation fuel and auto fuel, I'll
wimp out and opt for B.

2. Right wing has a good sized leak that I can't plug from the outside.
I have pulled off the access panel I put in the center bay and I'll
build a fortress of pro-seal around the area of the leak.


I have restored 5-6 airplanes, but between the bungees and the pro-seal,
this has been the most challenging. I am still excited to fly this
bird!

--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com

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[Legeorgen]

Hi Scott,

Apparently you are not alone when it comes to MAM's wet fuel tanks. I am
facing the same problem and will be addressing it very soon. I will follow
your progress with much interest. Spruce does sell a sloshing compound made
for auto and aviation fuel.

Bruce 357R
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[Terry Dazey]

hibbs wrote:

I am slightly deflated. I have been working on my fuel tanks for some
time. Here is the situation:

1. Left wing holds 1-2 PSI for an hour or two, slowly running down. I
can't find the leak.

2. Right wing has a good sized leak that I can't plug from the outside.
I have pulled off the access panel I put in the center bay and I'll
build a fortress of pro-seal around the area of the leak.

Here are a couple of suggestions for tracing a fuel tank leak. This assumes you have the
fuel cap
holes cut and can seal the tank:

1. Lightly (low pressure) pressurize tank and use soapy water if required to check for
fuel tank leaks. Mark the
area to be repaired. Be sure to rinse the tank well with clean water and allow it to
thoroughly
dry. Repair offending hole.

2. Push an ammonia soaked rag into the tank and seal the caps/fuel fill hole. Soak a rag
in
Phenolphthalein (C2O H14 O4) and hold it against the outside of the tank moving it
around until
you see a purple spot. This purple spot is your pinhole leak! Pop off the cap covers,
remove the
ammonia rag and vacuum or air out the vapors out of the tank. Make your repair. Now, I
am not sure what effects ammonia has on aluminum, but it has worked in the past on
fiberglas tanks. Ask a chemist and check it out first!

3. Purchase a can of Freon from your friendly auto air conditioner repair man, and
borrow his
Halogen gas sniffer. Squirt some Freon into the offending tank, replace the fuel cap,
and
pressurize the tank, (very carefully, blow into the vent). Use the sniffer to locate the
leak or
leaks, mark them carefully and repair. This method should find even the tiniest pin hole
leaks.

Terry Dazey
Sumner, Washington
Rebel 662
Right wing in progress


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[rebelair]

Hi Guys

I brushed the entire inside of the tank with a brushable ProSeal which I got locally at Leavens. Only 1 pint can was needed to do both tanks. I did this as a top coat to the ProSeal prior to closing the tanks. No problems at all afterwards. It is very easy to use & sticks extremely well when dry. This idea is a 'no brainer' to me.

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: LisaFly99@aol.com [mailto:LisaFly99@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 9:31 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Sloshing Compound or drip?


In a message dated 1/13/01 7:08:57 PM Central Standard Time,
hibbs@pacifier.com writes:

I am slightly deflated. I have been working on my fuel tanks for some
time. Here is the situation:

SCOTT
They do make slosh compounds for AV or AUTO but I don't think there is one
compatible for both. But don't slosh if there are any other options! If you
slosh for AV gas and get some contaminated with Auto gas or alcohol KISS the
slosh good by. If you slosh for Auto gas and have to put in AV gas KISS the
slosh good by. It's a no win situation. I sloshed my left tank to stop an
over night leak down before I new how much a problem it could be. Now every
time I leave the ground I / Well you can imagine the nagging little feeling
you could get.
Phil&Lisa Smith #460 N414D
PS Wayne's on Vacation but BOB P. could probably answer about Pro-seal that
is of a paintable consistently. OR try ( www.prc-desoto.com/ )

[carol51]

Hi Scott;

Had 2 leaks when tested with 3Lbs. air. One tank rivet had a crack on the
main spar side, could not see it. Having found this rivet, I drilled it out,
managed to get the head out of the tank with a coat hanger. pro sealed a new
rivet, fixed.The other leak was at a stringer location. Mixed pro-seal,
warmed it up to make it run a little, eased up the skin, squeezed the
pro-seal between the skin and stringer, let sit 24 hrs. No more leaks.
Good luck
----- Original Message -----
From: "hibbs" <hibbs@pacifier.com>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 6:13 PM
Subject: Sloshing Compound or drip?

I am slightly deflated. I have been working on my fuel tanks for some
time. Here is the situation:

1. Left wing holds 1-2 PSI for an hour or two, slowly running down. I
can't find the leak. I suspect it is under the skin somewhere that I
can't reach or see (yes my top and bottom skins are already in place).
It won't leak water. As far as I can tell I have 4 grim options: A -
Leave it alone and see if it develops a fuel stain during the first 6
months or so of flying. B - Find a sloshing compound that can handle
Auto and Aviation fuel without working loose and plugging the outlet. C
- Take the top wing skin clear off (drilling out the main spar,
stringers, etc.) to try and find the leak. D - cutting access holes in
the bottom wing skin all the way around the tank so that I can find the
leak. Given those options, if anyone can suggest a sloshing compound
that they have used regularly with aviation fuel and auto fuel, I'll
wimp out and opt for B.

2. Right wing has a good sized leak that I can't plug from the outside.
I have pulled off the access panel I put in the center bay and I'll
build a fortress of pro-seal around the area of the leak.


I have restored 5-6 airplanes, but between the bungees and the pro-seal,
this has been the most challenging. I am still excited to fly this
bird!

--
Best Regards,

Scott Hibbs
hibbs@pacifier.com

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[Legeorgen]

I sloshed my Kitfox fiber glass tanks (as per Skystar recommendations) two
years ago and have used both Aviation and Auto fuel with no problems (knock
on wood). I look inside the tank with a light periodically and have even
poked around with a screw driver. So far no problems. Not all sloshing
compounds are compatible with alcohol. The product will say so on the can.
Aircraft Spruce sells a slosh, made by Randolph #912, that is advertised as
being good for Aviation and Auto fuel as well as alcohol proof.

Bruce 357R
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