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[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line

Converted from Wildcat! database. (read only)
Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 pm

One thing you lose when low on fuel.. having a tee'd in sight gauge.... is
the ability of the line to carburetor to act as a syphon. Sitting
statically.... when I was refurbishing FOKM with a tee'd in sight gauge...
it needed 10 gallons of fuel in the tank before I could even get fuel to
flow out at the carb fitting, otherwise it would draw the easiest thing and
that was air. Removing that air "induction" significantly improved fuel flow
and allowed it to empty the tank to fumes.

While the intent is to run as gravity feed in a high wing for most of
us..... I've seen a few Rebels/Elites come thru the shop where the Lycoming
engine the builder bought had a pump... so they plumbed it in as well as a
back up electric (instead of just tossing the pump). Absolutely no need for
the pump.. but it's another item that will suck that air down into the
lines. On the other hand we have guys running injected Continentals and fuel
pump equipped auto conversions, Rotax, Rotech and similar style engines. If
they are drawing off a dual port tank or tee'd sight gauge I sure hope they
have a vented header tank downstream.

Regards,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "ray" <raybot@comcast.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line


[quote]I have a question about this air flowing in to the fuel lines and I have
heard this mentioned before.On a gravity feed system if you have a leak or
a
loose fitting doesn,t the fuel come out? The fuel constantly seeks the
level
state so that even if one tank unports the air can only go down the line
to
the fuel level in the line,not any lower and when the plane returns to
normal flight or undoes the unporting the fuel flows back up the line from
the other tank. What I,m trying to say is if you unscrew a fitting
anywhere
in a gravity system either fuel flows out or nothing happens because the
fuel in a properly vented tank is always in equlibrium. The only way air
could 'leak' in is if a fuel pump was applying suction to a system. I
don,t
see the presure or vacumn that has the fuel moving,I only see gravity and
or
centrifigul forces acting on the fuel,or am I all wet here?I need to
understand this as I have a rebel with a gravity system and have my own
concerns about the system as is.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa" <lopeco.eduardo@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line


[quote]Hi Wayne: That's another good point that the lower sight gauge fitting be
placed sepparately to the fuel feed line, so no air flows in. I will
install
a header tank with air relief line to the top of the wing's tank (exactly
don't know how just yet). This header tank will hold approximately 5
gallons
of fuel and will be installed under the pilot's seat, below the
floorboard.
This installation is mandatory for the turbo prop engine.
I appreciate the photo you sent, it's how I will make mine too, and yes,
the
wing is upside down.
Regards, Eduardo

El 02/12/11 13:00, "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> escribi

ray

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line

Post by ray » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 pm

The fuel pump appling suction I understand. It is a dynamic situation. The
gravity system is as I see it is static in that at any point in the system
that you open it either fuel or air is there period.The fuel always has air
above it and never has air below it because of the weight of the fuel
pushing the air out of the way because it is heavier just like water in the
tanks pushes the fuel out of the way and finds the low point.If there is an
air leak at the sight gauge isn,t this just more vent air that prevents a
vacumn forming as in an unvented tank? If you could pick up your plane and
turn it upside down the flow would reverse and fuel would come out of the
vents and if you let air come in at say the gascolator all the fuel would
gravity feed out the vents.right? I know its not quite this simple but in
general the air is on top and stays there and the fuel is on the bottom and
stays there unless up becomes down in which case they seek the new
equlibrium? I,ve read the advise about the air leaks at the sight gauge but
I can,t understand how the ait gets below the fuel in a gravity system but I
can be somewhat dense at times,maybe this is one of those times. Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa" <lopeco.eduardo@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line


[quote]Hi Ray: Could you be more specific as to which is confusing you:
A) Air coming into the fuel line if you place the lower sight gauge
fitting
together with the fuel feed line?, as Wayne mentioned, or
B) Air relief line from the top of the header tank to the top of the main
wing tank?
AS fas as I see it, both make perfect sense to me; how?
In A), the top of the fuel sight gauge fitting is out in the open air as
fuel is consumed; this air may seep into the lower fitting which works as
both fuel level and feed fuel to the engine. In your setup, this may work
properly and don't give you problems, but some engines have both
mechanical
and electrical pumps which at certain times are sucking fuel furiously;
this
may cause air to enter the fuel feed line, especially if these lines are
not
dimensioned properly, i.e. too small.
And B) any air which may seep into the header tank will be vented to the
top
of the wing (via an aluminum Versatube) which is where the highest point
of
the fuel is. Also, a turbo prop engine will suck enormous amounts of fuel
(mainly during take off) and will tend to lower the level of the header
tank; if there is no vent, the header tank may collapse.
Hope this helps. Regards, Eduardo


El 02/12/11 16:25, "ray" <raybot@comcast.net> escribi

Bob Palmer

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line

Post by Bob Palmer » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 pm

Eduardo,

That is a good point re: header tank. I have considered that idea on a
smaller scale, as we have a piston engine. I have thought of putting in
a small 1 liter tank just downstream of the tank outlet right behind the
door frame.
Personally, I don't have a problem with the position of the sight gauge
as per the manual even though it won't show you the last little bit. If
you are reading it in flight then when you cannot see fuel you are
already in a low fuel situation . Even with the standard two bay tanks
(Elite) there seems to me a potential for fuel to slop around and induce
air into the outlet at anything less than what can be read with the
standard setup. Even more so with the long range tanks (3 bays).
With a small sump or header tank on each side you would be safer in the
descent in a 'low fuel in turbulence' situation. Haven't done it yet
though. For the moment I just carry more fuel.

Bob.

On 12/2/2011 12:01 PM, Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa wrote:
[quote]Hi Wayne: That's another good point that the lower sight gauge fitting be
placed sepparately to the fuel feed line, so no air flows in. I will install
a header tank with air relief line to the top of the wing's tank (exactly
don't know how just yet). This header tank will hold approximately 5 gallons
of fuel and will be installed under the pilot's seat, below the floorboard.
This installation is mandatory for the turbo prop engine.
I appreciate the photo you sent, it's how I will make mine too, and yes, the
wing is upside down.
Regards, Eduardo

El 02/12/11 13:00, "Wayne G. O'Shea"<oifa@irishfield.on.ca> escribi

Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 pm

The sight gauge as per the latest manual.. vertical at the front of the
tank... won't show you the last ELEVEN gallons US when sitting static on
wheels or the last SEVEN gallons when sitting on floats (or in flight) with
a standard 22 gallon x 3 bay fuel tank. 3 bays is standard, 2 bays is for
Rotax fellas and 4 bays is optional on the Elite.

The small header would definitely be a bonus in a long decent. I always
figured I was a tad tail low coming in to land and it didn't matter, until
Leah got a shot of me coming in over the trees on Temagami landing across
the channel, read SHORT, and I'm probably nose down 10 degrees = uncorked
fuel outlet!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Palmer" <rtpalmer@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line


[quote]Eduardo,

That is a good point re: header tank. I have considered that idea on a
smaller scale, as we have a piston engine. I have thought of putting in
a small 1 liter tank just downstream of the tank outlet right behind the
door frame.
Personally, I don't have a problem with the position of the sight gauge
as per the manual even though it won't show you the last little bit. If
you are reading it in flight then when you cannot see fuel you are
already in a low fuel situation . Even with the standard two bay tanks
(Elite) there seems to me a potential for fuel to slop around and induce
air into the outlet at anything less than what can be read with the
standard setup. Even more so with the long range tanks (3 bays).
With a small sump or header tank on each side you would be safer in the
descent in a 'low fuel in turbulence' situation. Haven't done it yet
though. For the moment I just carry more fuel.

Bob.

On 12/2/2011 12:01 PM, Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa wrote:
[quote]Hi Wayne: That's another good point that the lower sight gauge fitting be
placed sepparately to the fuel feed line, so no air flows in. I will
install
a header tank with air relief line to the top of the wing's tank (exactly
don't know how just yet). This header tank will hold approximately 5
gallons
of fuel and will be installed under the pilot's seat, below the
floorboard.
This installation is mandatory for the turbo prop engine.
I appreciate the photo you sent, it's how I will make mine too, and yes,
the
wing is upside down.
Regards, Eduardo

El 02/12/11 13:00, "Wayne G. O'Shea"<oifa@irishfield.on.ca> escribi

Bob Palmer

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line

Post by Bob Palmer » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 pm

Ray,

If the fuel is slopping around in a tank some air is going to enter the
outlet and would find its way back out past more incoming fuel because
of gravity. However, the fuel is being consumed and as the aircraft
moves around, a steady flow of fuel will become more interrupted with
air as the fuel level drops to where the tank outlet port becomes
uncovered. At some point air could find it's way as far as the engine.
Right now you have a unusable fuel quantity with the aircraft level and
parked but in flight your usable fuel could be less as a result of
aircraft attitude, acceleration and turbulence. If you are sitting in
cruise on a smooth day your system should work perfectly until your at
the unusable quantity, same as on the ground while parked

Bob.

On 12/2/2011 12:25 PM, ray wrote:
[quote]I have a question about this air flowing in to the fuel lines and I have
heard this mentioned before.On a gravity feed system if you have a leak or a
loose fitting doesn,t the fuel come out? The fuel constantly seeks the level
state so that even if one tank unports the air can only go down the line to
the fuel level in the line,not any lower and when the plane returns to
normal flight or undoes the unporting the fuel flows back up the line from
the other tank. What I,m trying to say is if you unscrew a fitting anywhere
in a gravity system either fuel flows out or nothing happens because the
fuel in a properly vented tank is always in equlibrium. The only way air
could 'leak' in is if a fuel pump was applying suction to a system. I don,t
see the presure or vacumn that has the fuel moving,I only see gravity and or
centrifigul forces acting on the fuel,or am I all wet here?I need to
understand this as I have a rebel with a gravity system and have my own
concerns about the system as is.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa"<lopeco.eduardo@gmail.com>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line


[quote]Hi Wayne: That's another good point that the lower sight gauge fitting be
placed sepparately to the fuel feed line, so no air flows in. I will
install
a header tank with air relief line to the top of the wing's tank (exactly
don't know how just yet). This header tank will hold approximately 5
gallons
of fuel and will be installed under the pilot's seat, below the
floorboard.
This installation is mandatory for the turbo prop engine.
I appreciate the photo you sent, it's how I will make mine too, and yes,
the
wing is upside down.
Regards, Eduardo

El 02/12/11 13:00, "Wayne G. O'Shea"<oifa@irishfield.on.ca> escribi


Ken

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 pm

Think siphon.
Tank outlets will occasionally be exposed to air from turbulence,
sloshing, etc.
We know that once bubbles get into the down lines from a temporary
unported tank outlet they can remain there and seriously restrict flow
unless flow from the other tank forces the bubbles back up and into the
tank. Engines (on Rebels) have been known to quit from this. So unless
you have a header tank, it probably makes sense to always keep both
tanks feeding. However when fuel quantity is low the risk of not purging
the bubbles increases since both tanks can unport. These are wide tanks
and not many of us keep the ball exactly centered while manoeuvring even
if there is no turbulence.

I have a header tank with a low fuel warning in it for several reasons
including negating the need to carry more fuel and weight than I need.
Performance is very definitely related to weight.

Ken

On 02/12/2011 5:13 PM, ray wrote:
The fuel pump appling suction I understand. It is a dynamic situation. The
gravity system is as I see it is static in that at any point in the system
that you open it either fuel or air is there period.The fuel always has air
above it and never has air below it because of the weight of the fuel
pushing the air out of the way because it is heavier just like water in the
tanks pushes the fuel out of the way and finds the low point.If there is an
air leak at the sight gauge isn,t this just more vent air that prevents a
vacumn forming as in an unvented tank? If you could pick up your plane and
turn it upside down the flow would reverse and fuel would come out of the
vents and if you let air come in at say the gascolator all the fuel would
gravity feed out the vents.right? I know its not quite this simple but in
general the air is on top and stays there and the fuel is on the bottom and
stays there unless up becomes down in which case they seek the new
equlibrium? I,ve read the advise about the air leaks at the sight gauge but
I can,t understand how the ait gets below the fuel in a gravity system but I
can be somewhat dense at times,maybe this is one of those times. Ray
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa"<lopeco.eduardo@gmail.com>
To:<rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line


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Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line

Post by Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 pm

Hi Bob:
Header tanks must have two vent lines to the top of each wing tank, which in
turn must be vented to the atmosphere. In gravity feed systems, with vented
header tanks which are located at a lower level position, they do not feed
any fuel once the main wing tanks are empty (there is no 'head'pressure any
longer). So a one liter tanks is fine, as far as I see it to accumulate
airless fuel to the carburettor.
In low main fuel conditions, this is also an extra safety measure in case
air starts to seep into one of the main fuel lines to the header, especially
during prolonged turns. Just my opinion, regards, Eduardo

El 02/12/11 20:34, "Bob Palmer" <rtpalmer@shaw.ca> escribi

Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa

[rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] clear fuel line

Post by Eduardo Gutierrez Sosa » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 pm

Hi Ray: When the engine is running and the aircraft is flying, the fuel flow
is dynamic, not static. It will become more dynamic in turbulence and worse
when the fuel is low. Maybe this what I have not made clear yet. Air will
eventually seep into the fuel flow, form a bubble and you may get total fuel
blockage, especially if in the routing of the hoses or tubing, there is a
small siphon shape, where the liquid will have to flow upward. This is where
an air bubble will "park" itself and not let any fuel go pass it.
I am very careful when I route my tubing or hose and not permit any "siphon"
shape, even if it looks ugly...... just don


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