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[rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

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Roland Kriening

[rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Post by Roland Kriening » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:51 pm

I use large syringes from a farm supply store. They work great for getting
the stuff into small spaces. If you find the right size tubing to go on the
end you can reach some pretty tight places.

Roland
R56

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Wright
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 11:43 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Ron,

I think one way to get stuff in the hole is with an icing type squeeze
bottle from a kitchen store. A basting tool with a bulb on the end would
also work if it had a small enough tip.

Garry

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:
The saga of my leaking right tank continues. For the worst remaining
rivet, neither Loctite 609 or Seal-All would do the trick when applied
with internal vacuum suction, so after lengthy cogitation, I decided
to try replacing the rivet. I drilled the rivet head off and gently
pushed the tail back up into the (springy) Pro-Seal inside, where it
remains. Am now intending to pump a bunch of Pro-Seal into the rivet
hole before replacing the tank rivet. I haven't worked with the
dreaded Pro-Seal before (didn't build the tanks) and have a couple
questions:


1) I have an (expensive but) unopened quart that has an expiration
date of 9/01/10. It's been stored in relatively cool temps. Do I dare
use it, or should I cough up the big bucks to get a fresh supply?

2) Any tips for measuring and mixing small batches? Per the can, I
gather the ratio is approx. 0.8 accelerator to 10 sealant, and per the
manual, it can be thinned with MEK if necessary.

3) My plan is to apply internal vacuum in the tank, and push as much
Pro-Seal as I can into the rivet hole from the outside using a small
suction cup. Any other ideas for methods to press it into a rivet
hole?

4) Per Wayne's earlier comments about not cracking the shop end, I'll
probably pull the new tank rivet by hand, after slobbering it with the
goop, of course.


I realize that pushing the rivet tail up into the existing Pro-Seal
carries the risk of opening more separation between sealant and metal,
but at this point it's really coming down to this tactic -- or cutting
football-sized access ports to redo the whole thing.


Ron
254R

PS - Sucking Loctite 609 into the seeps worked great on the left tank,
so it's still a viable method for others to start with.



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Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:51 pm

He's replacing >A< rivet..... why are we shooting/oozing/injecting
anything?? Clean the outside skin where the rivet's been drilled out... roll
the mandrel end of the new tank rivet in proseal, so that it has enough on
it so it scraps off and forms an "O-ring" when inserted and pull the damn
thing. Let it cure for at least a week before putting fuel in.

Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Kriening" <kriening@rogers.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 6:23 PM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

I use large syringes from a farm supply store. They work great for getting
the stuff into small spaces. If you find the right size tubing to go on
the
end you can reach some pretty tight places.

Roland
R56

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Garry
Wright
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 11:43 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Ron,

I think one way to get stuff in the hole is with an icing type squeeze
bottle from a kitchen store. A basting tool with a bulb on the end would
also work if it had a small enough tip.

Garry

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:
The saga of my leaking right tank continues. For the worst remaining
rivet, neither Loctite 609 or Seal-All would do the trick when applied
with internal vacuum suction, so after lengthy cogitation, I decided
to try replacing the rivet. I drilled the rivet head off and gently
pushed the tail back up into the (springy) Pro-Seal inside, where it
remains. Am now intending to pump a bunch of Pro-Seal into the rivet
hole before replacing the tank rivet. I haven't worked with the
dreaded Pro-Seal before (didn't build the tanks) and have a couple
questions:


1) I have an (expensive but) unopened quart that has an expiration
date of 9/01/10. It's been stored in relatively cool temps. Do I dare
use it, or should I cough up the big bucks to get a fresh supply?

2) Any tips for measuring and mixing small batches? Per the can, I
gather the ratio is approx. 0.8 accelerator to 10 sealant, and per the
manual, it can be thinned with MEK if necessary.

3) My plan is to apply internal vacuum in the tank, and push as much
Pro-Seal as I can into the rivet hole from the outside using a small
suction cup. Any other ideas for methods to press it into a rivet
hole?

4) Per Wayne's earlier comments about not cracking the shop end, I'll
probably pull the new tank rivet by hand, after slobbering it with the
goop, of course.


I realize that pushing the rivet tail up into the existing Pro-Seal
carries the risk of opening more separation between sealant and metal,
but at this point it's really coming down to this tactic -- or cutting
football-sized access ports to redo the whole thing.


Ron
254R

PS - Sucking Loctite 609 into the seeps worked great on the left tank,
so it's still a viable method for others to start with.



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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:51 pm

I do like it when you tell me to simplify stuff, Wayne! :-)

The reason I wanted to push some more goo inside is that while pushing
the old rivet tail up I may have lifted the Pro-Seal inside a smidge.
And given the leaky rivet, there may (must?) have been some separation
between metal and Pro-Seal inside.

Ron


On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 7:44 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> wrote:
He's replacing >A< rivet..... why are we shooting/oozing/injecting
anything?? Clean the outside skin where the rivet's been drilled out... roll
the mandrel end of the new tank rivet in proseal, so that it has enough on
it so it scraps off and forms an "O-ring" when inserted and pull the damn
thing. Let it cure for at least a week before putting fuel in.

Wayne

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Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:51 pm

Yah.. but if it was never prepped properly it won't mean a tinkers damn
either....

Most of these tank issues are from improper surface preparation. Scrubbed
and cross hatched with scotchbrite and cleaned with acetone a couple of
times. I don't care what's in the manual... I know what works.

When it comes to proseal... less is better! Not layers and layers of the
stuff.... smeared on top of incorrectly prepared material.

I shook when I saw the loctite and seal all posts earlier but since I was
late to the party there was no point in chirping in !

Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

I do like it when you tell me to simplify stuff, Wayne! :-)

The reason I wanted to push some more goo inside is that while pushing
the old rivet tail up I may have lifted the Pro-Seal inside a smidge.
And given the leaky rivet, there may (must?) have been some separation
between metal and Pro-Seal inside.

Ron


On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 7:44 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
wrote:
He's replacing >A< rivet..... why are we shooting/oozing/injecting
anything?? Clean the outside skin where the rivet's been drilled out...
roll
the mandrel end of the new tank rivet in proseal, so that it has enough
on
it so it scraps off and forms an "O-ring" when inserted and pull the damn
thing. Let it cure for at least a week before putting fuel in.

Wayne

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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:51 pm

I don't disagree, Wayne. Just playing the cards I was dealt. FWIW, so
far at least, the Loctite 609 applied with suction (as recommended by
the local EAA TA) has worked very well on the left tank.

In addition, however, I think it's clear that given the prevalence of
leak issues experienced by so many -- including, no doubt, many
competent and careful builders using good surface prep -- there is at
least considerable evidence that the process is far from foolproof.

Ron



On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 8:12 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca> wrote:
Yah.. but if it was never prepped properly it won't mean a tinkers damn
either....

Most of these tank issues are from improper surface preparation. Scrubbed
and cross hatched with scotchbrite and cleaned with acetone a couple of
times. I don't care what's in the manual... I know what works.

When it comes to proseal... less is better! Not layers and layers of the
stuff.... smeared on top of incorrectly prepared material.

I shook when I saw the loctite and seal all posts earlier but since I was
late to the party there was no point in chirping in !

Wayne

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Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:51 pm

Issue is too many people have followed the factory suggestion to clean the
aluminum first with acetone, then scotchbrite... and then after scotchbrite
to immediately pro-seal and not to acetone (clean) up the dirt/dust. That
procedure is an absolute NO from this camp and I have numerous fuel tanks
that have never leaked a drop to prove that point.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

I don't disagree, Wayne. Just playing the cards I was dealt. FWIW, so
far at least, the Loctite 609 applied with suction (as recommended by
the local EAA TA) has worked very well on the left tank.

In addition, however, I think it's clear that given the prevalence of
leak issues experienced by so many -- including, no doubt, many
competent and careful builders using good surface prep -- there is at
least considerable evidence that the process is far from foolproof.

Ron



On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 8:12 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
wrote:
Yah.. but if it was never prepped properly it won't mean a tinkers damn
either....

Most of these tank issues are from improper surface preparation. Scrubbed
and cross hatched with scotchbrite and cleaned with acetone a couple of
times. I don't care what's in the manual... I know what works.

When it comes to proseal... less is better! Not layers and layers of the
stuff.... smeared on top of incorrectly prepared material.

I shook when I saw the loctite and seal all posts earlier but since I was
late to the party there was no point in chirping in !

Wayne

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Ken

[rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:51 pm

Yup.
Another acetone wipe after scotchbrite cleans up a fair amount of crap
that I did not want left in the joints. I did also do a second coat of
brusheable pro seal from the inside though.

Ken

On 6/20/2011 11:40 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
Issue is too many people have followed the factory suggestion to clean the
aluminum first with acetone, then scotchbrite... and then after scotchbrite
to immediately pro-seal and not to acetone (clean) up the dirt/dust. That
procedure is an absolute NO from this camp and I have numerous fuel tanks
that have never leaked a drop to prove that point.

Wayne

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Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Pro-Seal issues

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:51 pm

No doubt it's happened, but It's hard to imagine a whole lot of people
leaving a coat of Scotch-Brite'd aluminum oxide dust on the surface
before applying a critical sealant -- no matter what the manual might
[fail to] say. Those who do should not only expect a failure, they've
also forgotten the First Rule of Rebel Building (FRRB), namely, "Don't
[always] believe the manual." ;-)

Ron



On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 4:00 AM, Ken <klehman@albedo.net> wrote:
[quote]Yup.
Another acetone wipe after scotchbrite cleans up a fair amount of crap
that I did not want left in the joints.


Locked