[rebel-builders] fuel flow testing

[Eric Fogelin]

Don't worry, be happy.

Seriously.

For high wing airplanes like Cessnas, it is typical in the POH to state that
both fuel tanks should be on (both selected) for takeoff and landing. This
addresses your issue as well as what happens when you are doing slips to
land, etc.

Ultimately, you are defining what your "unusable" fuel level is. Unusable is
not necessarily when the last drop comes out. You can define your aircraft,
that you have built, as the manufacturer, when either tank does not provide
the 150% fuel flow or when both on do not provide the 150% fuel flow. Put it
in your POH, placard only if the inspection requires.

You've done good.

Eric
N645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Rebecca Brownell
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 5:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] fuel flow testing

hello all
need some info if possible.What would be the maximum angle used for
doing fuel flow tests?The info I have tells me I need 150% of the max
fuel required by the engine.13.5gph =19.75gph required on the flow
test.I can achieve over 20 gph when in flight attitude but I get 17
gph when I raise the nose.I used 4gal in each tank, tested
seperatly.Not sure if I'm using to much of an angle,not enough fuel?
Anything below 3gal in a tank and the flow drops below the 150%
requirement.Help!Didn't know the paperwork would be the hardest
part.Any insights here would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jason
817R



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[Rebecca Brownell]

Thanks for that,so would I call my unuseable fuel 3gal per tank?Any
ideas on the angle?I jacked the front up till the back of the floats
were almost touching the floor.Too much?
On 4-Feb-11, at 9:39 PM, Eric Fogelin wrote:

Don't worry, be happy.

Seriously.

For high wing airplanes like Cessnas, it is typical in the POH to
state that
both fuel tanks should be on (both selected) for takeoff and
landing. This
addresses your issue as well as what happens when you are doing
slips to
land, etc.

Ultimately, you are defining what your "unusable" fuel level is.
Unusable is
not necessarily when the last drop comes out. You can define your
aircraft,
that you have built, as the manufacturer, when either tank does not
provide
the 150% fuel flow or when both on do not provide the 150% fuel
flow. Put it
in your POH, placard only if the inspection requires.

You've done good.

Eric
N645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Rebecca Brownell
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 5:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] fuel flow testing

hello all
need some info if possible.What would be the maximum angle used for
doing fuel flow tests?The info I have tells me I need 150% of the max
fuel required by the engine.13.5gph =19.75gph required on the flow
test.I can achieve over 20 gph when in flight attitude but I get 17
gph when I raise the nose.I used 4gal in each tank, tested
seperatly.Not sure if I'm using to much of an angle,not enough fuel?
Anything below 3gal in a tank and the flow drops below the 150%
requirement.Help!Didn't know the paperwork would be the hardest
part.Any insights here would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jason
817R



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[Lynn Cole]

Hi Jason,
My Cessna 140 is placarded for no takeoffs with fuel quantity in the
red area (the bottom 1/4 tank, about 3 gallons). It is OK to fly
level with less fuel. Incidentally, the fuel selector has only
"Left", "Right", and "Off" positions. No "Both". I have to think
carefully about which tank is selected when slipping for a landing or
landing in a crosswind.
Lynn Cole
Murphy Elite #709



On Feb 4, 2011, at 8:51 PM, Rebecca Brownell wrote:

Thanks for that,so would I call my unuseable fuel 3gal per tank?Any
ideas on the angle?I jacked the front up till the back of the floats
were almost touching the floor.Too much?
On 4-Feb-11, at 9:39 PM, Eric Fogelin wrote:

Don't worry, be happy.

Seriously.

For high wing airplanes like Cessnas, it is typical in the POH to
state that
both fuel tanks should be on (both selected) for takeoff and
landing. This
addresses your issue as well as what happens when you are doing
slips to
land, etc.

Ultimately, you are defining what your "unusable" fuel level is.
Unusable is
not necessarily when the last drop comes out. You can define your
aircraft,
that you have built, as the manufacturer, when either tank does not
provide
the 150% fuel flow or when both on do not provide the 150% fuel
flow. Put it
in your POH, placard only if the inspection requires.

You've done good.

Eric
N645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Rebecca Brownell
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 5:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] fuel flow testing

hello all
need some info if possible.What would be the maximum angle used for
doing fuel flow tests?The info I have tells me I need 150% of the max
fuel required by the engine.13.5gph =19.75gph required on the flow
test.I can achieve over 20 gph when in flight attitude but I get 17
gph when I raise the nose.I used 4gal in each tank, tested
seperatly.Not sure if I'm using to much of an angle,not enough fuel?
Anything below 3gal in a tank and the flow drops below the 150%
requirement.Help!Didn't know the paperwork would be the hardest
part.Any insights here would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jason
817R



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[Ron Shannon]

I concur with Eric. Some add'l. thoughts re (US) inspections:

If I'm not mistaken, the standard requirement is only 125% of max engine
requirement if you have an aux. fuel pump, as you probably know.

With VG's and Fife tips, 254R reaches approx. 17.5 deg. up attitude in slow
flight, just before power on stall. Apart from passing inspection, as Eric
more-or-less suggests, IMHO the real question is: in high power slow flight,
how high can the nose get before the engine starves -- when you're also
banking X deg. in a canyon and the high tank is empty? Of course, none of us
would _ever_ get in that situation (ahem!) but... I've pondered whether the
mere possibility is reason enough to have an aux. pump. (Answer here: no, so
far.)

FWIW, I tested my gravity only system at 15 deg. up and got approx. 21 GPH
at the carb. My DAR didn't ask about flow rate tests, although in a moment
of temporary insanity, I volunteered the results -- so I suppose he might
have asked, if I hadn't volunteered first. I'm not sure if he actually paid
any attention to the numbers, but no doubt he was glad to know I had done
the tests.

The DAR knows you've busted your butt getting to this point, and most of
them want your plane to pass inspection if at all possible. If you've had
some other knowledgeable eyes inspect it first (EAA Technical Advisor if
possible), then sweep the floor, and you'll be fine. ;-)

Ron
N254MR

PS - Don't have anybody else present. Even if sworn to silence, they might
_look_ like they're saying something! Or the DAR might feel he has to say
something! ;-)



On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Rebecca Brownell <
brownell@cottagecountry.net> wrote:

hello all
need some info if possible.What would be the maximum angle used for
doing fuel flow tests?The info I have tells me I need 150% of the max
fuel required by the engine.13.5gph =19.75gph required on the flow
test.I can achieve over 20 gph when in flight attitude but I get 17
gph when I raise the nose.I used 4gal in each tank, tested
seperatly.Not sure if I'm using to much of an angle,not enough fuel?
Anything below 3gal in a tank and the flow drops below the 150%
requirement.Help!Didn't know the paperwork would be the hardest
part.Any insights here would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jason
817R



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[Ken]

I would agree. Frankly I doubt that it is normal to have much more nose
up than the airplane sits on conventional gear. On amphibs that is much
less than pulling the tails of the floats to the ground. Sure it will
do ridiculous nose high flight but it is not normal especially with
flaperons extended. On floats if I haul the airplane off the water with
the aft float bottoms parallel to the water, I immediately lower the
nose to get speed and then let it fly out of ground effect at a
reasonable best climb angle speed of around 50+ knots. Many guys also
insist on having both tanks on for takeoff and landing to avoid trapping
bubbles that can restrict flow. The regs are designed to allow a low
fuel go around but to me that also means accelerating to at least best
climb angle speed before climbing.

Ways to improve the flow might include replacing 90* fittings with bent
tubing, better flowing gascolator, and definitely toss the restrictive
plastic handled fuel valves that used to come with the kits. Make sure
the tank vents are clear or see if opening the gas caps makes any
difference.

Ken

On 2/4/2011 9:39 PM, Eric Fogelin wrote:

Don't worry, be happy.

Seriously.

For high wing airplanes like Cessnas, it is typical in the POH to state that
both fuel tanks should be on (both selected) for takeoff and landing. This
addresses your issue as well as what happens when you are doing slips to
land, etc.

Ultimately, you are defining what your "unusable" fuel level is. Unusable is
not necessarily when the last drop comes out. You can define your aircraft,
that you have built, as the manufacturer, when either tank does not provide
the 150% fuel flow or when both on do not provide the 150% fuel flow. Put it
in your POH, placard only if the inspection requires.

You've done good.

Eric
N645E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Rebecca Brownell
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 5:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] fuel flow testing

hello all
need some info if possible.What would be the maximum angle used for
doing fuel flow tests?The info I have tells me I need 150% of the max
fuel required by the engine.13.5gph =19.75gph required on the flow
test.I can achieve over 20 gph when in flight attitude but I get 17
gph when I raise the nose.I used 4gal in each tank, tested
seperatly.Not sure if I'm using to much of an angle,not enough fuel?
Anything below 3gal in a tank and the flow drops below the 150%
requirement.Help!Didn't know the paperwork would be the hardest
part.Any insights here would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jason
817R

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[Bob Palmer]

I think the most important issue is the fuel flow. The test seems to be
designed to place the aircraft in the worst orientation for that, with
the height of the tank outlet to carb/injector pump being the least.
This is what everyone wants to know in order to be confident that you
will get adequate power with as little fuel remaining as possible. The
test helps prove out, not only that your lines aren't plugged by debris
but also that there are not too many other forms of friction impeding
the flow.
It does not consider a descent attitude and so has less to do with the
minimum fuel you would consider safe.

Bob.
773E




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[Rebecca Brownell]

Thanks to all for the replies.Heres what I figured out today in case
it may help somebody like myself in the future(not feeling to smart
lately).The best results I could get when in flight attitude was
21GPH.At an angle of 15deg it was down to15GPH at best.Took out the
flow transducer and got 36GPH in flight attitude and 27GPH at the
seemingly extreme angle of 15deg.Lots of flow.I was assured by
the"experts", that the sender would work.guess not.Luxury item
anyway.Thanks for the inputs.May need some more for this weight and
ballance....................FOR SALE 1 MGL Fuel computer...........
Thanks
Jason
817R
On 5-Feb-11, at 3:05 PM, Bob Palmer wrote:

I think the most important issue is the fuel flow. The test seems to
be
designed to place the aircraft in the worst orientation for that, with
the height of the tank outlet to carb/injector pump being the least.
This is what everyone wants to know in order to be confident that you
will get adequate power with as little fuel remaining as possible. The
test helps prove out, not only that your lines aren't plugged by
debris
but also that there are not too many other forms of friction impeding
the flow.
It does not consider a descent attitude and so has less to do with the
minimum fuel you would consider safe.

Bob.
773E




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[Walter Klatt]

Jason, if you run a fuel flow sensor, you need one would that has a low
pressure drop. If it is a Floscan, make sure it is not the 201B. That one
does not work well with gravity fuel systems.

I run a Floscan 231 in mine, and it has only 0.5 PSI pressure drop, so it
works fine. I was getting around 27 gph IIRC

Walter


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Rebecca Brownell
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 1:41 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] fuel flow testing

Thanks to all for the replies.Heres what I figured out today in case
it may help somebody like myself in the future(not feeling to smart
lately).The best results I could get when in flight attitude was
21GPH.At an angle of 15deg it was down to15GPH at best.Took out the
flow transducer and got 36GPH in flight attitude and 27GPH at the
seemingly extreme angle of 15deg.Lots of flow.I was assured by
the"experts", that the sender would work.guess not.Luxury item
anyway.Thanks for the inputs.May need some more for this weight and
ballance....................FOR SALE 1 MGL Fuel computer...........
Thanks
Jason
817R
On 5-Feb-11, at 3:05 PM, Bob Palmer wrote:

I think the most important issue is the fuel flow. The test seems to
be
designed to place the aircraft in the worst orientation for that, with
the height of the tank outlet to carb/injector pump being the least.
This is what everyone wants to know in order to be confident that you
will get adequate power with as little fuel remaining as possible. The
test helps prove out, not only that your lines aren't plugged by
debris
but also that there are not too many other forms of friction impeding
the flow.
It does not consider a descent attitude and so has less to do with the
minimum fuel you would consider safe.

Bob.
773E




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[Ron Shannon]

FWIW, I use an EI FT-90 "gold cube" flow transducer, which they claim has a
0.05 PSI pressure drop at 20 GPH.
http://www.buy-ei.com/Pages/Miscellaneo ... _Flow.html (It was inline for
the gravity only results reported earlier in the thread.)

Ron
N254MR


On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

Jason, if you run a fuel flow sensor, you need one would that has a low
pressure drop. If it is a Floscan, make sure it is not the 201B. That one
does not work well with gravity fuel systems.

I run a Floscan 231 in mine, and it has only 0.5 PSI pressure drop, so it
works fine. I was getting around 27 gph IIRC

Walter

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[craig]

Hi Ron,

On the FT-90 subj, I was in panic mode after I ordered my Dynon stuff
because I saw your comment on site that stated that the "90" was for grav
feed. Dynon ships with the FT-60 for my eng with a grav feed. I called both
Dynon and EI and was assured by both that the FT-60 would work correctly
with min pressure drop. Fingers crossed. CW

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] fuel flow testing

FWIW, I use an EI FT-90 "gold cube" flow transducer, which they claim has
a
0.05 PSI pressure drop at 20 GPH.
http://www.buy-ei.com/Pages/Miscellaneo ... _Flow.html (It was inline
for
the gravity only results reported earlier in the thread.)

Ron
N254MR


On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca> wrote:

Jason, if you run a fuel flow sensor, you need one would that has a low
pressure drop. If it is a Floscan, make sure it is not the 201B. That one
does not work well with gravity fuel systems.

I run a Floscan 231 in mine, and it has only 0.5 PSI pressure drop, so it
works fine. I was getting around 27 gph IIRC

Walter

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[Rebecca Brownell]

Thanks again,it is a floscan 201 A-6.Should trust ones instincts ,I
knew that hole looked small.I'll check out the other senders for
later.I have to get this thing inspected before the end of Feb.Have a
pilot lined up but the insurance co. is frowning on his age a
bit.Can't really fly it till I get a hydraulic pump,the one I had made
isn't going to work.Just another few hundred down the tubes.Any word
on that pump Bob,I guess the end of January didn't work eh.
Thanks again folks.Much appreciated.
Jason
On 5-Feb-11, at 5:12 PM, Ron Shannon wrote:

FWIW, I use an EI FT-90 "gold cube" flow transducer, which they
claim has a
0.05 PSI pressure drop at 20 GPH.
http://www.buy-ei.com/Pages/Miscellaneo ... _Flow.html (It was
inline for
the gravity only results reported earlier in the thread.)

Ron
N254MR


On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
wrote:

Jason, if you run a fuel flow sensor, you need one would that has a
low
pressure drop. If it is a Floscan, make sure it is not the 201B.
That one
does not work well with gravity fuel systems.

I run a Floscan 231 in mine, and it has only 0.5 PSI pressure drop,
so it
works fine. I was getting around 27 gph IIRC

Walter

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[Rebecca Brownell]

Walter do you recall the size ,is it 3/8 through the sensor?
On 5-Feb-11, at 5:01 PM, Walter Klatt wrote:

Jason, if you run a fuel flow sensor, you need one would that has a
low
pressure drop. If it is a Floscan, make sure it is not the 201B.
That one
does not work well with gravity fuel systems.

I run a Floscan 231 in mine, and it has only 0.5 PSI pressure drop,
so it
works fine. I was getting around 27 gph IIRC

Walter


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Rebecca Brownell
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 1:41 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] fuel flow testing

Thanks to all for the replies.Heres what I figured out today in case
it may help somebody like myself in the future(not feeling to smart
lately).The best results I could get when in flight attitude was
21GPH.At an angle of 15deg it was down to15GPH at best.Took out the
flow transducer and got 36GPH in flight attitude and 27GPH at the
seemingly extreme angle of 15deg.Lots of flow.I was assured by
the"experts", that the sender would work.guess not.Luxury item
anyway.Thanks for the inputs.May need some more for this weight and
ballance....................FOR SALE 1 MGL Fuel computer...........
Thanks
Jason
817R
On 5-Feb-11, at 3:05 PM, Bob Palmer wrote:

I think the most important issue is the fuel flow. The test seems to
be
designed to place the aircraft in the worst orientation for that,
with
the height of the tank outlet to carb/injector pump being the least.
This is what everyone wants to know in order to be confident that you
will get adequate power with as little fuel remaining as possible.
The
test helps prove out, not only that your lines aren't plugged by
debris
but also that there are not too many other forms of friction impeding
the flow.
It does not consider a descent attitude and so has less to do with
the
minimum fuel you would consider safe.

Bob.
773E




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[craig]

Jason,

Keith Kinden at Montana Floats sells a hydraulic pump that'll work with
Murphy floats. If it's not too late give him a call. Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rebecca Brownell" <brownell@cottagecountry.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] fuel flow testing

Thanks again,it is a floscan 201 A-6.Should trust ones instincts ,I
knew that hole looked small.I'll check out the other senders for
later.I have to get this thing inspected before the end of Feb.Have a
pilot lined up but the insurance co. is frowning on his age a
bit.Can't really fly it till I get a hydraulic pump,the one I had made
isn't going to work.Just another few hundred down the tubes.Any word
on that pump Bob,I guess the end of January didn't work eh.
Thanks again folks.Much appreciated.
Jason
On 5-Feb-11, at 5:12 PM, Ron Shannon wrote:

FWIW, I use an EI FT-90 "gold cube" flow transducer, which they
claim has a
0.05 PSI pressure drop at 20 GPH.
http://www.buy-ei.com/Pages/Miscellaneo ... _Flow.html (It was
inline for
the gravity only results reported earlier in the thread.)

Ron
N254MR


On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
wrote:

Jason, if you run a fuel flow sensor, you need one would that has a
low
pressure drop. If it is a Floscan, make sure it is not the 201B.
That one
does not work well with gravity fuel systems.

I run a Floscan 231 in mine, and it has only 0.5 PSI pressure drop,
so it
works fine. I was getting around 27 gph IIRC

Walter

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[Ron Shannon]

Good luck. I'll be interested to hear how it works out. If you have a fuel
pump, you should be fine. I do not use a fuel pump with my throttle body
carb -- it's just gravity to the carb -- so losing 0.5 PSI didn't seem like
a good idea. Mine was spec'd & supplied by Advanced Flight Systems (AFS) for
their EFIS/EMS, specifically for my true gravity only system.

Ron


On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 2:30 PM, craig <snowyrvr@mtaonline.net> wrote:

Hi Ron,

On the FT-90 subj, I was in panic mode after I ordered my Dynon stuff
because I saw your comment on site that stated that the "90" was for grav
feed. Dynon ships with the FT-60 for my eng with a grav feed. I called
both
Dynon and EI and was assured by both that the FT-60 would work correctly
with min pressure drop. Fingers crossed. CW

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[Walter Klatt]

Yeah, the problem with the 201 A-6 is the flow rating is too low at only 30
gph. The 231 is rated to 65 gph, I believe, and the .5 psi pressure drop
isn't reached until max flow. So at normal fuel flow of 7 - 16 gph, the
pressure drop would be much less than the 201.

Yes, it works with 3/8 fuel lines, that's what I have.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Rebecca Brownell
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 2:31 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] fuel flow testing

Thanks again,it is a floscan 201 A-6.Should trust ones instincts ,I
knew that hole looked small.I'll check out the other senders for
later.I have to get this thing inspected before the end of Feb.Have a
pilot lined up but the insurance co. is frowning on his age a
bit.Can't really fly it till I get a hydraulic pump,the one I had made
isn't going to work.Just another few hundred down the tubes.Any word
on that pump Bob,I guess the end of January didn't work eh.
Thanks again folks.Much appreciated.
Jason
On 5-Feb-11, at 5:12 PM, Ron Shannon wrote:

FWIW, I use an EI FT-90 "gold cube" flow transducer, which they
claim has a
0.05 PSI pressure drop at 20 GPH.
http://www.buy-ei.com/Pages/Miscellaneo ... _Flow.html (It was
inline for
the gravity only results reported earlier in the thread.)

Ron
N254MR


On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
wrote:

Jason, if you run a fuel flow sensor, you need one would that has a
low
pressure drop. If it is a Floscan, make sure it is not the 201B.
That one
does not work well with gravity fuel systems.

I run a Floscan 231 in mine, and it has only 0.5 PSI pressure drop,
so it
works fine. I was getting around 27 gph IIRC

Walter

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